I would like to start a discussion on markings and symbols used in woodworking. I am refering to things like the cabinet maker’s triangle, methods of what component is what and what side of a cabinet is what. I find myself changing my method of marking often because I am not convinced that the one I used last is the best. I don’t have the time this instant, but if you all will start to add to this discussion, I will drag out some photos and images that will show what I have found.
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I use whatever method or symbol takes my fancy to do the job.
Triangle, X, slash marks, combinations of those with LT(left top) or some such added so that I will know what the part is and how it relates to others in the piece.
One of theings I do for the larger, more involved pieces is to break it down to sections and label them and assign each a letter then use a number for each of its subsections A4 might be a raised panel in the side of a chest, so each piece in the panel would be labeled A4 and then the whole would have a carpenters triangle to indicate their relationship to each other.
What I want to do is to try to avoid what your tag line saying implies. My concern is that, except for a few symbols that I have aquired that have stood the test of time, I tend to vary the marks I make more than I would like to. Sort of what you imply you do. I would like to aquire a "standard" set of symbols and I am hoping they exist.
Frank Klause uses "squiggles" on the outside of his boards to mark them as outside. Is that the best way to mark a board? Why not inside where they may not be seen as well? I have done both, but would like a rationale to be consistant.
The cabinet maker's triangle makes very good sense and its usefulness is obvious. I don't deviate from that symbol. (If some of you don't know what I mean, I will post a photo).
Is there a "standard" marking approach for the sides of a box that is not ambiguous? Does RB mean right back or rear bottom? What if you have 3 boxes. Is the standard to use numbers 1 for box 1, 2 for box 2 or is A for box A better? Does B mean back, bottom or box B.
Anyway, you see what I am driving at. Yes, I could write down my own convention, but I am sure that there are markings that have stood the test of time where I won't find that I have devised a symbology that has a fatal flaw (or I find a convention later that I wish I had adopted because it is so much better). Here, for example, is a neat way of showing which post is left front, right front, left back, right back. It came from February 2002 American Woodworker. It uses symbols, not numbers or letters that might result in confusion.
What about some kind of tape that can be written on and would not leave residue. That would have enough room for any level of detailed notes, dimensions etc.
KDMKenneth Duke Masters
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December 15 1791
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Well, I think that 3M blue painter's tape would fill that use. David Marks uses it to mask off areas from glue and the like without sticking and leaving residue. You can mark on it and its purpose is precisely that-not to mark the surface it is on. However...
Most of the time you want a shorthand method of marking. Even if you had the whole working area, you would not want to have to spell out all the words. Some of the areas you want to mark are small. I have a hard time believing that this "language" is so small and undeveloped. Maybe I will have to come up with symbols on my own or fine ones people use as I find them. I was hoping that it was more developed. Also I am looking for rationale of where the markings are placed. Are they to be placed on the side to be finished and seen (like the Klause squiggle) or not?
I'm old and 'set' in my ways.. I mark things Right and Left and Top and bottom as 'I' would look at them!
EDIT:
am not convinced that the one I used last is the best..
Whatever YOU use for your OWN work is Correct~ As long as YOU understand what you meant!
Edited 5/29/2005 2:26 pm ET by Will George
I agree with Will in regards to describing the piece with regards to how you're facing it. This is also a very common in the upholstery industry. They use LSF and RSF (left side facing or right side facing) to describe which arm of a couch, for example, that you're describing.
Carpentry is the only profession I've ever known. I'm 3rd generation. I was taught, by not being taught. I was giving a task, and learned the hard way. My experience is that most tradesman learned the same way. Thus, I've found there is no standard. Whatever works.
Personally, I try to make no marks. Every mark made has to be sanded or removed. I think of marks as nail holes. Every mark leads to more work later down the road. Most times, someone else has to really scrutinize a piece to locate any of my marks. I'm always consciece of what side is what, where a mark can be made that will be invisible, or easy to remove.
Only in pencil. Learned that from my dad. Much easier to remove than pen (sands off and does not soak in).I use "X" to mark the piece to be cut out (say for a dovetail), I also use "X" when building walls of 2x4s. The |X marks the spot on the foot or cap where the stud will be nailed.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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OK. Maybe this is a good forum to start. I am going to record the ideas people put forth. The X is pretty standard for the area to be cut out. So that is a good start. What about the best set of symbols for the six sides of a cube? Should the symbol incorporate information as to what side attaches to each edge? Is "right reading" enough to define its position and what side attaches to each edge? What other information should it carry. What have I forgotten?
I hope you all don't think I am being anal retentive about this. Being able to come up with a marking without thinking should make work go quicker. It also would keep you from second guessing yourself later in the project (was B bottom or back). Both of these problems have happened to me. I have refrained from coming up with my own markings because I have been looking for an existing standard that has been well thought out. The cabinet maker's triangle is an excellent example. It was obviously well thought out and almost impossible to screw up. It also can be used for an infinite number of panels. See what I mean?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but maybe if you spent more time worrying about what you were building, and less time worrying about how to mark it. You wouldn't have so many problems. The more work you do the more confident you will become, and you won't have the same problems.
I just don't understand why you want to create a system. If you do enough projects, the system will create itself. The more you use your own system the more it will evolve.
This is not something that can be done by sitting in front of a computer.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be critical of you personally. People have a tendency to reinvent the wheel. Sometimes, it really is simple.
I was afraid that I would be creating this type of reaction. I hope everyone does not feel this way. I do have a tendancy to focus on things that others could give a d**n about.
Be assured that this has not stagnated my woodworking. Because I have focused on the building rather than the symbols, I have not taken the time to really come up with a consistant marking system, but I will if this discussion results in no answer.
It all depends...on what I'm not sure.My last project I marked the four drawers, "A" "B" "C" "D", and the doors "1" "2" "3" "4". Go figure...The door frames (at the mortise point and on the tenon) I marked for frame "A" as "A1", "A2", "A3", "A4"... and frame "B" as "B1" "B2"...etc. This was done in pencil.Thing here is I built these by hand, i.e. chisel and saw. If I used a router or other machine it would'nt be so critical. Everything would be the same size...or there about.My present project I'm using chalk to mark the large panels, guess it depends what is at hand.I do have to say I loose it sometimes when using symbols, I forget which is what. So I think simplest is best and something I understand. e.g. TL, BR, etc.Another thing is I may change parts. For example changing a door panel with a frame because the texture or grain pattern fit a frame better. This may happen anytime, especially after sanding. Labeling them all just causes confusion so I keep a mental picture.pk
Edited 5/31/2005 10:18 am ET by pqken
"consistant marking system" There's the key, Eric. While you'll get some good ideas here, I'm sure, there is no absolute! It's simply what works for you, and using it consistently. As long as the symbols you use help you keep things straight (or square, LOL) it's effective.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I understand the need of consistancy. Again, the reason I started this and the reason I am trying to urge everyone to contribute is to come up with the best consistant set of symbols. Whether it is a comment, a recollection, an approach that one has used, a marking approach from another industry (the machine tool industry?) ... whatever.
Again, I can come up with my own appoach, but the reason for the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), ASTM, IEEE, etc. is because standards--well thought out by more than a single person--make life easier. The "how to mark legs" in one of my first posts has saved me from making errors several times. I don't know if I would have come up with as good a system as that. I don't think I would have come up the the cabinet maker's triangle (and you can't beat that symbol).
So, I would like to gather everyone's ideas. There are already some good ideas here. I am going to gather them and, if I am motivated enough, start putting them in a website. We will see.
I started a similar thread on rec.woodworking.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/bebfc141d4bf50f7/ff1dedb32aaf0165?q=symbol&rnum=1&hl=en#ff1dedb32aaf0165
There are some interesting ideas over there also.
I've been woodworking for a fairly long time, but due to career and family I don't do it often enough to have a real "system." Having said that:
1. Carpenter's triangle is the best method whereever applicable.
2. I use pencil on inside surfaces that won't show (e.g., inside side of a dresser), and don't worry about removing the marks.
3. I use chalk for outside surfaces during all preliminary stages.
4. Whenever I get to the point of sanding (which would remove chalk marks, or other preliminary marks), I try to find a surface that will not show, such as the cheek of a tenon, and make a very prominent mark there - pencil, or even magic marker. Another good location that will never show is the top of a post. For example, if building a table with four legs, the top of the leg is visible until you do final assembly, then never visible again, so you can use a permanent mark there.
5. For most items - dressers, desks, boxes, etc. - I keep it simple: "Left front, Left back," etc. Left or right is as I fact the object, with one exception: for a chair or couch, left or right is as I sit in the object. Don't ask me why this is an exception to the general rule, but it just seems "wrong" to label something that my right arm will rest on when complete as left.
6. I abbreviate left and right as L or R all the time, no confusion there. F and B for front and back are fine, too, and in almost all cases you can use T and B for top and bottom without risk of confusing Back with Bottom, because usually those pieces are of such a different shape you would never confuse them.
Whatever method you use, so long as you mark everything, and do it very carefully, you'll be fine. I've never made a mistake from mis-interpreting a mark, but I promise I have labeled something incorrectly (meant to write Left, wrote Right by mistake), and then cut it incorrectly.
Don't sweat dustinf's response. He stated that he wasn't trying to be harsh.Different people work differently. People that can easily keep track of everything in their heads would wonder why in the world you want to put marks on things. I can't do that so I use pencil marks to indicate inside-outside, sequence, etc. Keeps thing in order during a run and lets me know if I'm loading a jig the right way. Especially if you hit a chip while pushing your parts cart and all goes tumbling. Without the marks it would take a lot longer to re-sort everything.
As I recall, a little mineral spirits on a clean rag will also clean up pencil marks.
However, I use colored chalk to mark mine with - I just have to worry about it coming off too soon
I use colored chalk to use blue on ligh wood and white chalk on dark woods1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I'm 3rd generation. I was taught, by not being taught.
Gee you in the USA Army too??
No, but my old man was.
Using marking is very important IMO. Quite some time ago I would use whatever marking came to mind. Now I simply use three markings:
1. Triangle for mostly glue ups and other flat materials
2. Xs within a box to denote the mortise or other waste area
3. Spelled out markings for everything else
i.e. Left- outside means just that-- Left apron - outside.
For me it saves confusion and I do not have to remember what a symbol means when I have not been to the shop in a week or two.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
E R,
When cutting a panel or board of unknown squareness, I check the edges with a straight edge then, (using a good square),find a true square corner
Any square corners, are then softpencil marked with a semicircle surrounding the inscription 90 degs.
All parallel and perpendicular cuts can be now be made utilizing the known square corner. (via the fence or miter gauge.)
Any sections to be accurately joined ,should be marked with 'witness' marks (Two arrows pointing tip to tip.)
Before cross cutting a board to remove splits or checks at each end, and to assure accurate length, first mark a perpendicular line at mid point (or,so)and cross that line with a 'C' (indicating center)
Measure from that line to right and left to produce cut marks.
To avoid cutting to the wrong side of cut marks, draw a short line alongside the cut line to indicate the blade's 'kerf' region.
G S indicates good side
B S (Back side)
Any edge to be planed, should be marked with an arrow pointing in the best direction to avoid snagging the grain. (Good when sanding too)
Any rough or changed direction of grain should be enclosed in ( )s
Parentheses???
Area to be glued,mark : GLU
When assembling screwed together sections, mark a simulated screw to highlight hidden screws to avoid drilling or sawing into hidden screws
When dividing a particular length into numerous sections, multiply the length in inches plus any remaining 16ths; multiply the total inches by 16;add any extra 16th's
THEN, divide all the 16th's by the sections needed.
To lay out the many sections, use a pair of dividers and press the points into the wood, then rotate one point and prick the neighboring sections etc etc.
To make the little'Pips'more visible, wet your thumb and rub the finger over the pip.
Top/ BTM/ R S/ L S Stein
Edited 5/31/2005 6:43 pm ET by steinmetz
I was always reluctant to write anything on my work. So I didn't.
Any number of times I wished I had some way of knowing/recalling something I knew at an earlier point in time.
Gradually I evolved to marking more and more. There have been so many times I was glad about it much after the fact. I write small and boldly in pencil. Some of my earlier marks had got lost.
My system of marking (and filing) is simple - if I were I were marking it today, how would I nomenclate it? Then I assume that's how I must have done it. It turns out to work for me.
I tried using "official" symbols, such as the one used for a surface that has been jointed. It was a pain. I found "J" works for me. So I simply use intuitive symbols, usually alphabets and numbers.
I think we are accumulating a nice list of suggestions. Keep it up. I will keep this thread and try to put everyone's ideas into a succinct list. I think this will help everyone. In cases where there is a disagreement on approaches, I will ask for suggestions on how to resolve the discrepancy.
For cabinetry/casework, on the gables I use X's to note insides, bottoms, and backs.....a left hand gable (as you are facing it) would get an X at the bottom of the panel, and at the back.....the side that gets marked is the inside. If you have a lot of shelf holes bored, and they don't reference the same from the top and the bottom, you have to stay on top of that.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Must be the Navy training of port and starboard. I designate left and right as they relate to the front of the object. Not recommending it. It works for me so I stick with it. I just have to remember to shake hands during assembly. ;)Onward through the fog.
Chuck Whitney
Another thing I like to do is if there is any fitting to do (or when taking something apart to be reglued) -
I'll label both parts of a joint "A", "A" "B" "B"
So A is glued to A, B is glued to B (I'll also use 1s and 2s but tend to use letters because they don't get confused with measurements etc)...
Top/Bottom/Back inside/left side/ right side/ inside/front/back - very handy with my bow cases...
(pictures at: http://www.pbase.com/durrenm - woodworking projects folder)
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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Hey, Mark, I was intrigued by your foam saw. Pretty cool. (Just a comment, not trying to hijack this thread!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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