I purchased this plane about 15 years ago at a flea market.
Me thinks “Someday I’ll bring this guy back to life.” Over the
years I’ve pulled it from the cobwebs to work on it. Cleaned
off the rust and try to flatten the sole. Had I known then
what I know now – I would never have parted with my $.
The sole had both concave and convex “features” that took
forever to grind out. It could still use a bit more flattening
– but 95% of it is dead flat. The 5% remaining are at the
front and back of the sole. Someday I’ll go back and address
the remaining 5%.
After spending the majority of the day this past Friday
working on it, I was ready to take my first few passes with it.
Fine ribbons of pine came curling up – I thought I was in
nirvana! I can’t tell you how gratified I was!
I may become a hand tool convert after this!
Thanks for looking!
Bill-
Replies
Hey Woodrat ,
That is truly a thing of beauty, I could shave in that reflection.
Shucks, I'm gonna dig mine out now .
regards dusty, boxmaker
Nice job!
Tis a good feeling saving one of these, eh?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Great feeling, isn't it!
I love my Baily #4, and keep it in nice shape, but not as nice as yours. Wow, that is some polish you got on the sole - and on the bevel.
Sweet!
Woodrat,
Justifialble pride! Great work.
But my suggestion is not to get too caught up in the tools themselves. Use them for what they can do. I am looking forward to photos of furniture you build using your plane.
Most of all, HAVE FUN. It looks to me like you are.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think you've just discovered the false economy that goes into the arguments on wood forums about "saving money" by buying a flea market Stanley vs. a Lee Valley, a Lie-Nielsen, or an already tuned but more money Stanley from a dealer.
No question that the initial purchase price of an old Stanley is quite a bit lower, but it's a great deal of work, and the end result is not certain. Thankfully yours turned out not to be one of those that was unsalvageable, but only discovered after hours of hard work - DAMHIKT!
I think that's overstated. You don't need a mirror polish on your sole after all.
I've never had (and I'd had plenty) of pre-WWII Stanley that was unsalvageable. Pay the extra $10 for one without a broken tote and nothing more than surface rust. Assuming an appropriate vintage and no extradinary decay and misuse, any old 3 or 4 should be ready to make decent shavings in a hour or less - more polishing is purely aesthetic and optional.
I don't really say this to try to convince you, but just to let newbies know that there are those (like me) who have not found getting user Stanley/Baileys to perform well to be nearly so daunting or taxing.
Edited 7/6/2009 8:23 pm ET by Samson
Perhaps, but you're making an assumption - that you can closely examine the plane before you buy it. I mis-stated this in one respect by calling them "flea-market planes". In this day and age, the vast majority of those newbies showing up on the boards with plane-tuning angst bought them off of e-bay.
And yeah, there are plenty of Pre-WWII Stanleys that are not really salvageable without going to extraordinary measures - it's not just about a flat sole. That's OK though, no amount of discussion will dissuade some folks from counting their time as free and applying an odd value sense to the extraordinarily low prices that modern hand tool makers charge for their products. One of the most hilarious (and perhaps sad) examples of that are seeing photos of a beat-to-crap Stanley that someone wants help with because they thought a LV was "too expensive" - and seeing $8k worth of table saw, jointer, planer and router table in the background of the same photo. Highly amusing. ;-)
Dave & Samson,
You both have good points. True, it's not necessary to go to great lengths to refurb a flea market special, but I think that's a sort of personal call in the sense that this is what I want. What one perceives as aesthetics another sees it another way.
Diiferent strokes for different folks, it's all good.
View Image View Image
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/6/2009 9:25 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Dave, Sampson, and Bob,You all raise good points.Given that I bought the plane 15 years ago...I didn't know
any better on what to look for & what to avoid. As previously
stated, If I knew then what I know now I never would have
purchased the plane. But I do like a challenge and all the parts
were there...so why waste it? Frankly, I will never go thru that much work on a plane again.
Time = $, etc. And I'd rather spend my time working wood than
tuning tools.It's all part of the learning curve & I learned quite a bit on this
"project-between-projects". Now that I know what to look for I
will likely buy more planes at flea markets & yard sales - with
a keener eye of course!Thanks for your input & look forward to reading more from
you all in future posts!Bill-Edited 7/7/2009 7:31 am ET by Woodrat1
Edited 7/7/2009 7:47 am ET by Woodrat1
Naw, I wasn't making any assumptions. I've found plenty of good ones on eBay. They have pictures now! ;-)
I suppose an utter newbie would be taking a bit of a shot in the dark, but assuming they knew to look for the right vintage and avoid damage and excessive rust, odds are they would net a very decent user for maybe $35 at most. Here's one from last week that's in the vein I'm talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-Bailey-No-4-Wood-Plane-Block-SweetHeart_W0QQitemZ290327211356QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4398d9ad5c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A13%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50
and while this one may take off to above $35 before she's done, she looks like a good prospect too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/STANLEY-No-4-Smoother-Plane-TYPE-11-EXCELLENT_W0QQitemZ150356219540QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2301edd694&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
I don't contend that such a plane would surpass LN and LV, but only that they are a good alternative for someone with serious cash constraints or who just wants to try out handplanes without making a large up front investment.
Edited 7/7/2009 11:40 am ET by Samson
"I suppose an utter newbie would be taking a bit of a shot in the dark, but assuming they knew to look for the right vintage and avoid damage and excessive rust, odds are they would net a very decent user for maybe $35 at most."
Sean - That's my point. You may well know what to look for (and probably do) - so do I. But I can gurantee that the Neanderthal Forum on Sawmill Creek gets one of those newbies with a very marginally salvageable plane that posts a "help!" thread just about every week.
David,
I agree that a person new to handplanes might not know what to look for. To that end I can think of two scenarios:
Buy what one thinks is a good user plane and go thru the tuning/fettling process and gain a ton of valuable experience.
As in stock preparation spend some time searching the vast wealth of information within forums such as Knots, Sawmill Creek, etc. and make a purchase based on others experience. As part of this maybe post a discussion like the OP.
Seems to be working quite well, eh? Tell me, what is it about woodworkers that cause them to they leap forward with offers of guidance? Sure is nice.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Unfortunately, I think there's a third outcome that's quite common. Buy an antique Stanley or Sargent with difficult to correct problems, not know how to correct those problems, put it to wood and have the plane stall, refuse to cut, create a bannana out of a board, or visciously tear out a really pretty (and expensive) board, and decide that the whole hand tool thing must be for masochists, or that they're hopelessly inept and give up in frustration.
Those folks don't frequent net forums, and I've met quite a few at local woodworking shows where I'm demonstrating 4-squaring with handplanes, or dovetailing with a saw. The comments are usually along the lines of "handplanes just tear up wood - I'd rather use a belt sander".
That's why I usually answer posts of "I want to try handplanes, what should I get?" with "buy a LN or a LV as your first plane, you will then know how they're supposed to work, and spend your time learning to correctly sharpen a plane blade. After that, you can try fettling an antique so that you know what to shoot for".
This, by the way, is why I strongly discourage folks from buying a new Stanely, Woodriver, Borg or other cheapie. The experienced among us may well know what to correct, if the example in front of us isn't correctable and needs to be returned, or whether the blade's temper isn't right, but the newbies generally don't. And it's a shame to have someone make a broad and incorrect conclusion about handplanes in general because they were trying to save just a few bucks - an amount that will be long forgotten after just one medium-sized furniture project.
Those folks don't frequent net forums, and I've met quite a few at local woodworking shows where I'm demonstrating 4-squaring with handplanes, or dovetailing with a saw. The comments are usually along the lines of "handplanes just tear up wood - I'd rather use a belt sander".
That's why I usually answer posts of "I want to try handplanes, what should I get?" with "buy a LN or a LV as your first plane, you will then know how they're supposed to work, and spend your time learning to correctly sharpen a plane blade. After that, you can try fettling an antique so that you know what to shoot for".
Notice any difference? It's a shame about the great unwashed refusing to check a plane book out of the library or get on-line and find an article or forum, but once someone has proven they are actually looking for advice by posting on-line seeking it, what's the harm in telling them about the few basic things to look for in vintage planes like Stanley or Millers Falls? You seems concerned about those that may give up due to frustration, but seem rather indignant about those who may never overcome inertia if the first hurdle involves laying down a couple hundred dollars.
I think most woodworkers are clever folks who are good with their hands and tend to be mechanically inclined a bit. A plane is not all that complicated (certainly no more so than a table saw, power jointer, router, etc.). I figured it out all alone in my shop with SW 5 that needed some attention. I'm nothing special.
"Notice any difference? It's a shame about the great unwashed refusing to check a plane book out of the library or get on-line and find an article or forum, but once someone has proven they are actually looking for advice by posting on-line seeking it, what's the harm in telling them about the few basic things to look for in vintage planes like Stanley or Millers Falls? You seems concerned about those that may give up due to frustration, but seem rather indignant about those who may never overcome inertia if the first hurdle involves laying down a couple hundred dollars."
There isn't any difference - the comments that I get at the woodworking shows have led me to conclude that a good number of newbies will indeed give up in frustration if they get something that's a mystery to try to get it to work right. And the ones I mentioned aren't asking how to fix up an old plane - they're stating that they don't have one, what should they get to start with? In my opinion, answering that they should get an antique and deal with the learning curve of knowing whether the plane's functioning correctly, diagnosing the problem(s), learning how to correct those, learning to correctly sharpen and tune an iron, and how to plane does a real disservice. It's a bit like saying to someone "you have to pay your dues, just like I did" - and I find that unacceptable. And yes, the simple answer is that a couple hundred dollars is nothing when it comes to woodworking - even a rank beginner that's spent a few months working wood has spent well over that in sandpaper, glue, and wood.
I think most woodworkers are clever folks who are good with their hands and tend to be mechanically inclined a bit. A plane is not all that complicated (certainly no more so than a table saw, power jointer, router, etc.). I figured it out all alone in my shop with SW 5 that needed some attention. I'm nothing special.
If that's what you did, then kudos to you - but this is absolutely NOT typical. There's good reason that those that show up to the classes at the local woodworking shop are asking all sorts of very basic questions that they could answer in a few minutes by reading through some stuff at their local library, or by browsing the internet. And I don't mean just about planes - how to cut a dovetail without a router jig, for example (those classes are full, and that topics been done to DEATH on the internet, in books, and in videos).
Dave, I'm not looking for kudos. And I'm certainly not looking to make anyone pay dues. I also don't think vintage is the way to go for everyone, or the preferred method or anything like that. My point is small: good vintage planes are abundant and not particularly difficult to make work well.
I hate to see people scared off of them by overhyped "mysteries and traumas of fettling." If you spend the extra $20 for one that is not beat and in dire need of electrolysis, a few squirts of oil, a wipe with a rag, and a blade sharpening may be all that it really needs to work fine. This is especially true for jacks and jointers. Smoothers might need a slightly finer touch, but often not even them.
I don't want to set people up for failure, but I also don't want to assume incompetence in accomplishing some very minor clean-up as a route to very usable tools.
Sean and All ,
Buying used tools / planes and such taking them apart and cleaning and sharpening them trying to put them back together can be the best way to learn about that particular tool .
If you buy enough planes you will have extra parts to use .
The majority of used tools may only need using not major rebuilding .
It is true that many of my best buys took me weeks to get in order mainly machine tools but it is a one time deal .
Perhaps there are two types of people , those who simply go out and buy the best they can find and the flea market group .
I have amassed a rather large lot of machines and hand tools in the last 35 years or so and only a handful were purchased as new .
regards dusty , a used tool user
Dusty,
Out of the last 25 - 30 used planes I have bought, almost all would function adequately with nothing more than cleaning and sharpening. I have yet to purchase a used plane whose iron shows any evidence that the back was ever flattened. Most are still probably sporting the original factory sharpening.
The absolute hands down worst plane I have purchased was a new Stanley "Professional" #4, which I bought and tuned up on a bet.
I am also a used tool user!
-Jerry
Bill,
Now that you've done that refurb you will know if you want to do more, and what to do or not do next time, and what to look for when buying at flea markets etc. You will also have a much better knowledge on how the thing is supposed to work. It is a simple tool but one would think that it is highly complicated when one reads what is said about it and what is done to it. You might be interested to look here: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=228901609 . I do these for many reasons but get satisfaction from working out methods to do them fast-I will not spend more than four or five hours on one-ever.
Philip,Thank you very much for your reply. I did learn quite a bit from this
exercise. I agree with you that I will never spend this much time on
a plane again. I think I have about 15 hours invested in this! But
learning was my goal and learn I did.After taking a dozen or so passes on wood I very quickly learned
the importance of cambering the blade. Experimenting with that
will be my next "Project between Projects".I look forward to hearing more from you in Knots.Take care.Bill-
Edited 7/9/2009 8:35 am ET by Woodrat1
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