I’m planning to buy 3 Stanley/Bailey type planes (4,5,7)from a supplier here in Houston (cutting edge tools) that claims it imports these Stanley planes from Great Britain. They also offer higher end planes.. Lie Nielson, etc. but these Stanleys are extrememly well priced. Anybody have any strong opinions against this purchase? Thanks..
Bill
Replies
A very genuine owner your dealing with there Bill, and his Stanley's are imported. If you wan't the tool to work nicely 'out of the box' so to speak with no more perhaps than a bit of honing, then buy his Lie-Nielson or Clifton offerings.
If you are prepared to do the final tuning up of the brand new planes yourself (and you know how) you should be able to get those Stanley (Bailey's?) to work just as acceptably as the expensive ones. The irons in the Stanley's may not hold an adge quite as long as the premium planes, but that really means not much more than sharpening a bit more often.
I've got a variety of planes from Stanley, to Norris, to Spiers, to Clifton, to rosewood infill shoulder planes, to old wooden beech planes, to a variety of spokeshaves, etc., and I use them all at various times in an effort to make my living. They all work just as well as each other as long as they're used within their limitations, and to their strengths, and for their purpose, but with the proviso that they are kept in good shape. For example, neither of my Norris's really works worth a darn. They're in bad shape, and I've got other planes I turn to before I'll take the time to tinker with either of these 'classics.'
Also, take into account the type of woodworking you are doing. If woodworking is hobby, perhaps you don't need one of the more refined planes. There again, some peoples hobby is gathering a collection of fine tools, new or old-- and using them is somewhat secondary. Slainte.
Richard, thanks for the welcomed tutorial on bench planes. I'm looking forward to watching you ply your craft one day. I especially apprectiate the generosity of professionals such as yourself who have invested so much time and money learning and perfecting your craft. So many of us have neither the time nor perhaps the money to go back and learn the right way.. and it is to fellows like you we gratefully turn for enlightenment.
Bill
Bill,
I've got six L-N planes and four Stanleys, two "old" and two new, all English. Add to that, the nine wooden planes, and there's what I think of as the beginings of a working collection. Each one was acquired for a specific purpose. Sometimes a project was delayed awaiting delivery. I am not a professional.
I was never so frustrated as after sharpening my new English Stanley #4's iron to perfection and attempting to smooth a glued up panel. The only thing it did well was gouge. The point is that there are many more things to success at planing than a sharp edge. If you read Hack, Kingshott, Charlesworth, etc..., you'll quickly see the why of plane dynamics and the how of tuning them to maximize performance. The new Stanley never had a chance (out of the box). Even newly sharpened, it had a thin blade (the better to chatter across the wood surface) a mouth too wide (the better to shear away large chips before their "backs broke", assisting in gouging, rather than making curly shavings) and an inferior frog design, which did very little to support the iron as it should have been.
You can make the new Stanley work within its limits, but doing it all over again, I'd choose other options. For approximatley the same budget as the three you mention, the L-N 5 1/2 is a superb substitute. It is a beautiful tool, which is factory made to perform as a plane should. It is very versatile and is a delight to use. Once the purchase is made, you'll be hooked, and might even direct your attention to using still more hand tools. The opposite affect might be expected with a new, out-of-the-box Stanley.
The Veritas planes also look good. The irons are slightly thicker than the stock Stanley, and this is a significant difference. I'm really tempted by the low angle smoother. It is very similar in design and cutting theory as the Holtey No. 98. Just for the heck of it, check out the website of Holtey Classic Handplanes. In my mind, Karl Holtey makes maybe the best planes in history. The prices are not for the mere mortal, except, perhaps,for the 98. This plane is of his own design, after making a lot of planes and studying their dynamics. A tremendous amount of thought went into it, and it works very, very well. The veritas looks a lot like it. I'm dying to give it a try, and bet I can make it work real well. You might really like it. The price surely seems reasonable for what they appear to offer.
In any event, my humble recommendation is to buy just one of something (unless you want to add a block plane to your initial bench plane purchase) and start the learning curve there. Add to it later, following the direction you sense is best for you.
Cheers,
Greg
Greg.. you've sold me. I'm going with the LN #5 1/2 on your recommendation. I'm new to woodworking but I've learned the hard way about many other things that there is simply no substitute for the best. I've taken the low dollar route on computers, appliances, car parts, clothes, jewelry, etc. and always been disappointed and wound up spending more in the long run. I have the funds to buy the three Stanleys and I'll cough up a bit more for the LN. I know going in that I won't be disappointed and that's worth the extra jack right up front. Thanks, Greg.. and thanks to all who contributed to my education on planes.
Bill
Bill,
Once you've acquired a few needed skills, and a little experience, I hope that you'll look into making a wooden plane. It takes the typical worker with motivation and moderate skill about a working day and a half to make his or her first plane. After that first one, it only takes a few hours of rather pleasant work.
A plane that performs as well or better than the best commercial plane (any kind) you can buy is well within the capabilities of anyone who wants to take the time to do it right. For the cost of the plane irons, caps wood and your time, you can have a shop full of every size and shape of plane that you can design, from palm sized to long jointing types. There's nothing like the feel of a good wooden plane, and when it's one that you've made performing well, that's even better.
Rich
Rich,
I haven't yet made a plane, but I picked up a few kits from Grizzly about a year ago; they were selling them out on their clearance site at $15 each. Still not sure if they'll prove to be much good. However, each kit included a Hock iron. Even if I end up throwing out the rest of the parts and keeping the irons, I think I still will have done well.
Jeff
Jeff,
The last thing you want to do is make a plane around an unknown quanity like a Hock iron. Obviously, they're no good at just $15 a blade. So you just pack them up and send them to me. I'm real flush with cash right now, so I'll give you $15 for each and you can thank your lucky stars you told me about your misfortune.
Always looking out for a fellow woodworker.
Rich
Gee Rich,
I'm glad you care. Trouble is I just remembered I was short on cash so sold them for scrap - $3 for the three of them. Didn't I do well??????
Jeff
Have you considered one really nice plane rather than three okay planes? The newer Stanley planes simply do not compare with LNs or even old stanleys. Even given the big price difference, i think you have to consider what your time is worth to you, as it will take a long time to tune those stanleys. Then you'll really want replacement blades that will hold an edge, and even then you've got plastic handles and thin castings.
I'd look at the Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 instead of the three Stanleys. It's long enough to pass for a jointer plane but manageable enough to use for smoothing as well. I love mine; i think it would be the last tool in my shop i'd ever let go off, but now i'm just getting emotional. For the three stanleys and three hock blades, you're looking at probably $300, just about what the LN sells for. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Peace,
kevin
Just got back from dinner and read all the great posts filled with many things to consider. To the suggestion that I buy one good plane, (LN #5 1/2), rather than three mediocre planes I went back to the cuttingedgetools.com website to compare prices:
LN #51/2 $325
Stanley #4 $55.99
#5 $69.96
#7 $109.99
While I have been convinced by all of you of the value (time, effort, quality) of higher end planes, I'm wondering whether these British mport Stanley planes might be better made than those made here. Also, I ordered and watched the Klingschott (sp?) video on bench planes and the Dunbar sandpaper sharpening video and concluded that one should be able to bring any plane iron to tolerable sharpness and usefulness. Mind you, I'm still considering buying LN or Clifton, but I'm really worried about my current propensity to use sheet goods and wonder whether expensive planes might sit around gathering dust if I don't get more serious about solid wood. Thanks to all of you for giving me so much to think about.
Bill
bill, if you put a $ value on your time then the stanleys aren't such a great deal. you will more than likely spend quite a few hours on each plane in order to get it tuned. then you'll probably want to replace the blade as well.
Lee valley's veritas plane are IMO a great deal. I own their block plane, 5 1/4 and their scraper plane. they all came with perfectly flat soles (less than .001") and the blades only needed to be honed. while the lie nielsen planes look a bit nicer, the veritas planes perform just as well as my lie nielsen for less money.
Bill,
Andrew is so right about the quality and value of Veritas planes. If you're looking for a new tool, they're hard to beat. If you're looking to spend less money, then go with the used Stanleys. They're readily available, reasonably priced, and much better in quality than the new Stanleys or Records. (There are a lot of other great used planes available, but the parts for them aren't so readily available.)
If you want a new plane at a low price, look at the Anants that Woodworker's Supply sells. Other than the plastic handles (which new Records and Stanleys also have) which are easily replaced, I have no complaints about the ones I bought.
Jeff
I'm including this statement from the cutting edge website regarding their Stanley bench planes. Is it just hype?
"We import Stanley Bailey and Record planes directly from the UK because, quite frankly, they are superior to anything currently made in the US or anywhere else, except for those made by Thomas Lie-Nielsen. Details such as flatness of the sole and well- machined frogs are critical to plane performance.All of our Stanley-Bailey style planes have corrugated soles. This reduces drag during planing and differentiates them from their Record counterparts."
Bill,
Sounds like a whole lot of hype to me. To say that their Stanley's are UK made is nothing profound, since I don't believe Stanley US makes bench planes anymore. I can't stress enough the importance of buying a good plane. Using a plane is a skill that takes a bit of work, and trying to learn that skill on a poorly made tool will give little more than frustration.
Keep in mind what I wrote above concerning used Stanleys. They are fine tools, and have almost nothing in common with the shiny new ones other than the name.
Jeff
Edited 10/15/2002 8:05:37 AM ET by Jeff K
I've always found it interesting that so many faults can be ascribed to the standard plane offerings of such as Stanley, Record, Anant, etc.. True, they usually need some tuning up to work to best effect, they lack the bedrock frog-- not much used in my experience, they're not as heavy, and the blades are thinner than you will get on a Clifton or a Lie-Nielson.
Usually the first piece of advice is to ditch the blade and replace it with a Hock iron or something-- now what do you do with the old blade? As I said earlier, it's just a case of sharpening a bit more often until the old blade is worn out; then you might consider buying a replacement Hock iron. Gosh, in twenty five years of using Stanley and Record planes on a daily basis in my furniture making livelyhood, I think I must be on my second or third standard blade with one or two of my planes, and some I've never replaced.
True, I've acquired a lot of planes over those years, probably half a dozen or more smoothing planes now, and I tend to use two, three or four in tandem set rough, not so rough, a bit less rough and fine, on a big smoothing job-- hence my comment on the seldom used adjustment facility of the bedrock design frog.
I'm curious. How many of those that suggest better planes, such as ~$250 Clifton's, Lie-Nielson's, or even the ~$4,000(?) Holtey should be purchased are cutting up timber on $500 contractors saws instead of ~$6,000(?) Felders or $20,000± Martins, or giant Northfields, price unknown? I think there is an interesting analogy or comparison available here. Economically priced power saws that need a lot of tinkering to perform well are fine, but economically priced planes that need a lot of tinkering to perform well, --well, aren't, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.
Website
Edited 10/15/2002 10:09:07 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian,
I think the ultimate object is to make the thing work well. You certainly can. I couldn't a few short years ago. That was when I bought the new Stanley #4. It was frustrating. Thank goodness I had the prewar #5 which someone had given some attention and then maintained. The L-N will arrive in almost ready to use condition right out of the box. Frustration minimized by L-N.
Interesting analogy. But I think I'd rather have a superb hand tool, especially one which allows fine "adjustment" of a surface or joint, than a multi-thousand dollar tablesaw. I can actually save up for the hand tool and at least have and use a few things that are special. If I had money to burn, I still wouldn't go for the high end tablesaw, just to have "the best". Correction: maybe I would indeed purchase a euro-built saw, just for the safety configuration (i.e. riving knife, crown gaurd and short fence) which I learned about right here in this forum from you. By the way, I now rip with the delta unifence pulled back to mimick the short fence and use birds beak push sticks as in the photos you posted some time before the prospero switch. So thanks.
Here is another analogy. I golf with the same mediocre clubs I purchased 20 years ago. Once I conclude it's an equipment problem, I'll consider an equipment change (like when h### freezes over). My planing did suffer from an equipment problem, one which I didn't understand at the time. L-N erased it. If it had taken a Holtey, I'd been forced to learn a different way. The L-N was dear, but attainable. The results I was after were right there. Being purely self taught (a serious disadvantage, even with all the books I now have) I must say that a step up from new Stanley was a big help. Knowing more about theory now, I still think the Veritas low angle smoother might be a good place to start, and a good value too. You can tell I'm not a pro, but I hope this makes some sense.
Thanks again.
Cheers,
Greg
Bill... There are Stanley Planes and there are Stanley planes. Let me explain. BEFORE purchasing these planes, take off the lever cap and blade. Take a CAREFUL look at the depth adjusting lever, the little piece that looks like a wishbone. If it is one solid piece of cast iron, it is good. If it is obviously a 2 piece stamped steel piece, avoid it like a case of termites in your shop. That little piece of stamped and riveted steel will bend after a few adjustments and the plane will be a real pain to adjust. How do I know?? I've used one of them. You can probably see the stamped or cast piece without even taking the plane apart, but you want (must have) the cast piece. There is nothing wrong with a good Stanley plane. It just takes a bit more time to get it cutting properly.
SawdustSteve
Bill,
FWIW, with the exception of a #4 Clifton and a #6 Stanley (UK- ca. 1980) all my bench planes are Pre War Stanley's in the Bailey pattern (#3 - #7) and I'v used a few L-Ns too over the years. Guess what? No difference in quality of cut. Over a year ago I posted a "comparision" between my Clifton and my type 13 Stanley #4 right after I received the Clifton, might want to check the archieves.
That being said, any plane will need some fetteling regardless of who manufactures it. Some more than others. The #6 that I mentioned required only that the iron be sharpened and honed. I do think that Stanley (UK) quality has declined judging from the comments I've read on this and other forums, seems it's a hit or miss prospect. Same holds true with Record, which are essentially the same (Record uses a different lever cap than Stanley).
One suggestion that I do have is to pick up a copy of The HANDPLANE Book by Garrett Hack, it's available here in soft or hardbound.
Dano
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