Replies

1. 
   mufti | Jul 28, 2006 05:54pm | #1

              I think a starter first and foremost needs success with first projects to encourage further work. As you say, cost may be a consideration also, and working conditions play a big part.

   I can only speak from experience. My wife bought me a workmate, I had a tenon and cross and rip saws left from my grandfather, also a half inch mortice chisel and mallet. I bought an old Record 080 cabinet scraper and an old 0220 block plane. I also had granddads bow saw. This was about 1970 and I could just stay solvent and pay the mortgage.

   The people we bought this house from left behind a broken mahogany wardrobe, I knocked it apart, used the scraper to clean up the wood and made a coffee table which we still have. Because I could not plane the top flat I tiled it instead.

   The moral is to not at first spend long periods acquiring skills which will come as a consequence of making things, but work round problems within your resources and gain a few OOHs and AAHs. I once tried plastering a wall and my feelings as my work slowly slid down to spread over the floor are best imagined.

2. 
   mwenz | Jul 28, 2006 06:13pm | #2

   Hi Andy,

   This really is a difficult topic.  I write that not to be contentious, but every thread I have ever read concerning this issue ends up discussing the relative merits of lower cost tools in general.

   It is difficult to do without a target budget--and budget by commitee often is determined by those with great means than those who would be the target. By means, I don't necessarily wish to limit it to finances--also experience in things like fettling and knoweldge.

   As well, though the "beginner" wishing "starter" tools may not understand what I think is part of the crux: what is one desiring to build. Reaslistically build as first projects. A kit will consist of different things depending on that answer. So too, the philosophical approach: hand only, power assisted [to what degree], space, working environment...

   So, a general kit, usable on nearly any project? How about first determining what that list would be before we all randomingly throw tool suggestions?

   chisels
   saws
   striking tools: hammers, mallets etc
   measuring devices
   marking tools
   smoothing planes
   fitting planes
   joinery planes
   small work bench
   sharpening gear
   a couple books, perhaps general woodwork and specifically joinery

   Add to the list. I need more coffee!

   How about a proposed max budget of $500 for the handtools. And start from the premise that there are to be no vintage tools...just readily available new tools.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   VTAndy | Jul 28, 2006 08:26pm | #5

   Hi Mike,
   OK, I'm game. Let's set some more specific parameters. Let's say that the beginner is going to work through the first 5 issues of Woodworking Magazine on CD plus issue 6, not necessarily in order. They want to use hand tools exclusively (unlike the techniques depicted in the magazine, which are "blended"). They will begin by building the sawbench and workbench, and then they will try out some of the projects: perhaps the silverware tray and then the jam cupboard or the little end-table. The person putting the list together could choose which of the projects are to be done.I'd rather not eliminate old tools. Anyone who puts a list together of the tools to be used should indicate what their price limit would be for a given old tool.
   For instance:
   "Stanley #78: max. $35."This doesn't mean that they aren't out there for more than $35, it just means that the list-writer wouldn't pay more than $35 given the attempt to limit the budget.No limit on TOTAL costs. The idea is to look at the tasks to be done and propose a tool/supply list that is realistic. One person might be able to do this for $300, another for $600, another for $1000. I think that a variety of styles would be represented by the lists. There are those who would buy 100% LN tools and spend more. Others would list old tools at very low prices, which would imply a longer amount of time spent at auctions, flea markets, etc. Still others would list old tools but at prices such as those found on Patrick Leach's lists. Some will be minimalists, others will list very specialized tools. Still others will list shop-made tools (accounting of course for the tools required to make the tools!) -- I'm thinking of the try squares that Adam wrote about in Pop. Woodworking, for instance.Anyhow, it's all just for fun. I realize that the question of "which tools to start out" has been asked dozens of times of this and other forums. However, in this case, I think it would be very useful, given the arbitrary parameters of using hand tools only and confining the projects to those which have been depicted in only 6 issues of a specific magazine.Adam, I realize now that this isn't what you meant at all. However, one could always put together the list with items like: "1/4-inch bench chisel, anything goes". One could also put an asterisk next to tools that will typically be used for a lifetime as opposed to replaced later.
   -Andy

   Edited 7/28/2006 1:31 pm ET by VTAndy

1. 
   mwenz | Jul 29, 2006 06:09pm | #11

   OK, I'm game. Let's set some more specific parameters. Let's say that the beginner is going to work through the first 5 issues of Woodworking Magazine on CD plus issue 6, not necessarily in order.

   Hi Andy,

   Ok. Having a concrete idea of the first X projects is good...at least if one knows what those projects are and how they are constructed and assume they would be following the published plans. Can't help if I don't actually know what those are <g>.

   The saw bench I is in the current issue and so I can locate it--I just bought it! [Wonder what kind of handsaw is sitting on it?] The others I would have to hunt for.

   For a handtool user, a saw bench is a good first project. The joinery is large, and it is stable for helping to build a larger bench. Build two, or a supplimentary stool the same height, if you have the space.

   So, as the first project, here goes:

   A pair of cheap plastic folding saw horses form the Borg. First purchase unless one has another way to elevate the work. iirc, the Skil ones are about $20.

   1 cross cut handsaw $15. Nearly every yard sale has these. My recommendation would be to pick up an inexpensive hardpoint from the Borg. I think I last saw them for about $15. This is a better option than a vintage saw as it is sharp to begin with--why try to learn more skills before actually doing woodworking?1 inexpensive set of chisels $40. Blue Chips are $40 at Amazon. Steeping the bevel a tad before use.Sharpening stones $36. Rockler has a tri-hone with oil for this price. 1 Hard Arkansas: fine, 1 soft Arkansas: medium, and 1 Aluminum Oxide: Coarse. It's one of those 3-sided on a stand type. All in one place. Convenient.Engineer's square $10.12" Steel Ruler, Cheap.Hole Boring $ ?. The ubiquitous brace and a set of new bits [don't have to learn to reshape and sharpen] is reasonable. However...just get an inexpensive cordless and be done with it.Pack O' Pencils $10. Mechanical.Holdfast $17/1, $30/2. Get 'em from Joel.

   Ok, there are a few other items. Add to your heart's content--I'm being called back to the shop.

   Take care, Mike

3. 
   AdamCherubini | Jul 28, 2006 06:58pm | #3

   I guess I was thinking about the subject more in terms of a starter tool being a tool you know you will probably look to replace instead of a basic compliment of tools.  Deeper: I'm interested in the whole concept of a "starter" tool or "starter" house.

   We've seen and probably offered the sentiment "buy it once, buy it right".  Probably for most of us, if we are buying a microwave oven, we go to consumer reports, find the "best" one, then find the "best" price.   Its my understanding this doesn't stop with kitchen appliances.  So guys want to know what table saw is "best", what chisel is "best".  Thus the tool reviews you all hate.  But there's a reason issue after issue include tool reviews. 

   So at what point does it make sense just to buy whatever?  If I wrote a comparison of 8d nails, and I determined one brand of nail was better than the others, at what point does that become stupid and irrelevant?  Is there no line?  Is better always worth getting?

   Are the differences between tools really significant?  Seems like there'd be an obvious answer- Let's try this example- My friend Mike B just bought himself a set of Marples chisels.  What really is the difference between Mike's chisels and the most expensive japanese chisels? Sharpened correctly, both are going to work fine. When both are sharp, there may be very little difference in their performance.  Sure, you'll have to sharpen the Marples more often, their handles may not be as nice and they may not hold up for certain tasks and certain woods.  But its not like a 6" jointer not being able to do what an 8" jointer can do.  Both chisels will function more or less similarly. 

   So I guess the question I'm asking is, are there tools where the selection of the tool doesn't really significantly effect the tool's function?  I would think I could get any ANY jack/fore plane to work.  No need for a starter jack plane.  I could get any long plane to function.  Ditto for chisels and saws. But some tools, the difference between a good one and a junk one is more significant.  So I'm looking for your opinions about which tools (drill press say?) are or are not tools you need to "buy it once, buy it right".  I look forward to your answers.

   Adam

1. 
   mwenz | Jul 28, 2006 07:16pm | #4

   But some tools, the difference between a good one and a junk one is more significant.  So I'm looking for your opinions about which tools (drill press say?) are or are not tools you need to "buy it once, buy it right".  I look forward to your answers.

   Hmm. Not sure a distinction can be made between power and hand tools as regards buy it once, buy it right. I think we as individuals will always have a floating concept between what compromises there are between "needless cost" and "worthless for any purpose." My designations, of course.

   The Borgs are full of tools I would only buy if I had to. If there was no other option available to me. But they do a pretty brisk business with them. It's what keeps the motor of major tool makers humming along.

   As well--I know I could, and I believe you could, build most anything using those tools. Question is, could a beginner--a starter? Probably is my answer. Then the further questions would be, would the frustration of the tool[s] detract from "purchasing up" as skills and or desire increase? Perhaps to the point of giving up?

   Too, depending on what we are making, what tools should be compromised on and which should be bought once and bought right varies on what one makes--and the methods one wants to make things. For instance, I know I need a good sturdy oscillating spindle sander--do you? As for hand tools, I don't need a 24" or longer jointer but once every couple years. So I think I can get by without one at all. Could you? Could the starter?

   I apologize for a somewhat pessimistic contribution to what could be a good thread. I'll stop here.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Jul 28, 2006 08:51pm | #6

   I guess I'm thinking a lot of us started with junky chisels.  And when people ask us, we recommend the chisels (saws, jointers etc) we have today.  But is that the right thing to do?  Are good tools what is best for the beginner?  Its probably not how you learned.  Not how I learned.  I'd rather learn to sharpen with soft chisels.  I'm thinking soft chisels are better for beginners.  The question is when do they stop being good?  Do you have to graduate to better tools?  Won't the hardware store jig saw work fine for its purpose?  Its never going to be a tool that does fine work.  And if that's true, why not just buy ANY jig saw?

   Adam

1. 
   Buster2000 | Jul 28, 2006 11:18pm | #7

   I guess I was thinking about the subject more in terms of a starter tool being a tool you know you will probably look to replace instead of a basic compliment of tools.  Deeper: I'm interested in the whole concept of a "starter" tool or "starter" house.

   I think I see where you're going with this.  I think the ideas behind starter "_____" is to get onto the playing field, weather it be the woodworking, the housing market, or driving.  Limiting the discussion to tools... Even though they are intended to be discarded at an undertermined point inthe future I don't think think that they are necessarily are (or have to be) poor quality.  I think the aim of a starter tool is good value.  They make lack the features, fit and finish, or longevity of a top tool but they will do their job to at least the ability of the user.  When you are buying a starter tool you are buying a tool you will eventually grow out of (like a starter home).

   Many people I know spend hours pouring over reviews.  In the end the precision in the top tools often is greater then the skill of the user.  The features of these tools often go unused, since the basic skills are not there.  I don't think that a starter tool buy should ever get to the point of buying whatever, in my opinion they should aim to pick tools from established value brands.  As a power tool example, Grizzly rarely gets the top pick but it sure hits the mark on value over and over.

   When we compare reviews one problem is that most reviews only look at the top level of toosl to begin with.  It's not very often that I see a Mastercraft, Superior, or Sanoma (cheap Canadian brands) reviewed.  So a beginer could essentialy pick any of the tools reviewed, be very happy and have a tool to grow into.

   I should note that the sentiment 'Buy it once, buy it right' does not require that we buy the best quality tool.  It requires that we buy the best tool that is right for our needs.  I does not require us to plan for every eventuality in the future, just that it meets the obvious needs now and in the near future.

   And when people ask us, we recommend the chisels (saws, jointers etc) we have today.

   As for what we recomend, I think it's a matter of ego.  Saying that the big chunk of cast iron in the middle of your shop is rarely enough.  Nobody wants to say they got ripped off, or that their tools are poor quality.  So we seek the best quality, the best deal or some compromise between the two that we can live with.

   Anyway this is getting a little long.   So I'll end it here.

   Buster

1. 
   sapwood | Jul 29, 2006 05:17am | #8

   Some starter tools I've used for my entire career as a pro woodworker (26yrs):
   screwdrivers
   adjustable clamps
   stanley combination square
   stanley dovetail (gents) saw
   stanley low angle block plane
   1/4" rockwell router
   rockwell pad sander
   a milwaukee plug-in drill motor (3/8)
   unisaw
   delta 17" drill press
   myford latheI still use these. All my other tools have been upgraded. And, its not that the other starters aren't still servicable, because they are. For example my marples blue handled chisels are in my "carpentry" tool box. They receive the occassional rough use that I'd not want to subject a LN or old Buck Bros. to. And for years I used a Stanley Two-Tone smoother plane as my only plane other than the block. It was a gift, I thought it was the world's best plane...... it worked great for me. It has been replaced for the most part by other Stanley's and LN's. It has a place of honor on my office shelf. Is that Two-Tone a starter? It was, only because I have gotten and usually use others. But for at least 10 years into my career, it wasn't a "starter" it was my plane.This whole matter is terribly subjective. I'd recommend to anyone to buy the best you can afford and start woodworking with as small a kit as possible. I disagree that inexpensive and soft chisels would be good for anyone. True it would mean the newby would have to learn to sharpen, but the reality is they probably would become frustrated and quit.

2. 
   mike_b | Jul 29, 2006 03:34pm | #9

   "Are good tools what is best for the beginner?"Very good point. You can start using a tool for the first time at any point in your progression. I've been woodworking for a long time, but only recently became more focused on the use of hand tools (which I should have done years ago). I can spend $350 on a plane knowing that I'll use it, but in my mind, the beginner's selection of tools is a different matter. I've been asked often by people just getting started about what to get first and which is the best. As you say, we tend to recommend what we're using today, which may be the best, most expensive whatever. But, I always advise beginners to take it easy and start with reasonably priced equipment that is adequate, but not the best and to keep their investment to a minimum. I've seen people get all excited and spend a ton of money, only to learn that they really aren't that interested. Now the 10" Unisaw that's been fired up a handful of times sits in the shop waiting for some vulture to offer pennies on the dollar for it. So, I think it's all relative.

   Edited 7/29/2006 12:54 pm ET by Mike_B

3. 
   highfigh | Jul 29, 2006 06:17pm | #12

   If the answer to the "What will you be making" question is "Anything I want at the time", the tool list is going to be extensive. If the list is boiled down to the most basic tasks, it could look like:Hand tools onlyA saw for ripping
   A saw for cross-cutting
   A saw for cutting curves
   A set of chisels with a honing guide (makes it a lot easier to get the angle right and the end square, important for a beginner since difficulty in sharpening/honing causes loss of interest)
   Files and rasps
   Various hammers and mallets- a few can do the jobs of many
   A block plane, a smoother and maybe a jointer plane
   A try square
   Some kind of drill and bits, depending on how big the holes will usually be
   A way to cut rabbets and dados
   A bench
   Clamps
   ScrewdriversA way to cut edge profiles is helpful, but optional for someone who makes things with flat/square/bevelled edgesI don't think it's a good idea to eliminate old tools. My #4 Bailey cost $25 and although it took some time to fettle, it cuts hard maple like a champ and given the choice of that one or a new Stanley, mine wins. Good hand tools are better at what they do partially because they can do it longer without needing repair, sharpening or replacement. If they're used a lot, this should be a consideration. I have two decent slotted screwdrivers, only because I hate slotted screws and I refuse to spend a lot on slotted rivers for them. I have several Snap-On Phillips drivers because I got tired of replacing my Craftsman drivers when they dulled or broke (not dropped and the last time, I was tightening a screw on a radar detector and wasn't in a position of strength so there was no reason for it to shatter- it was badly heat treated). I drop my Snap-On drivers, tip first on concrete, and haven't needed a replacement blade in years.Part of my point is that a lot of really good woodworking has been done over many hundreds of years with inferior tools (compared with today's best) but it's more difficult and probably more wasteful. If a lot of material needs to be worked in a short time, a better tool will be a huge bonus. When a tool can be used occasionally and sharpened/honed between uses, a less expensive one is fine. Another part of my point is that a beginner won't have the motor skills of someone with more experience and will either hit something with an edge that the edge really doesn't need to hit or they will drop the tools more often. Sometimes harder to fix on pricier tools like chisels and if it breaks completely, it's more of a loss because they won't necessarily be able or know how to make do with something else.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

4. 
   Tony Z | Jul 29, 2006 05:48pm | #10

   First, it would help if you can find a local "buddy" to guide you a bit.  Second, look for tools that work and don't succumb to catalogs.  Track down Tom Law's phone number and buy a well sharpened handsaw.  Get a vintage hammer--look for wood octagonal handle and maybe Stanley vintage.  Need a few chisels, but more importantly some sharpening stones and Leonard Lee's book on sharpening.  Get a block plane--again vintage if you can. 

   Then play around.  Make a few cuts and then make a few more.  Sharpen your chisel and then use it.  Sharpen again and again.  Play with the block plane.

   Pick up a couple of books:  Fine Woodworking (I believe) has a very good one on handtools and it's quite cheap for a currently published book.  Get one or two by guys like James Krenov for some inspiration.

   And above all, have fun!  If you got any kids, girls or boys, let them have some fun with you.  Now, with the missus, you're on dangerous territory for if you start sliding down the slope and the missus goes to your shop, she'll know whenever you sneak something new in.  Saving grace is, if you occassionally make something she likes or wants!

   T.Z.

    

    

5. 
   joinerswork | Jul 29, 2006 08:20pm | #13

   All,

   Well this thread is a trip down memory lane for me.  Here's my "starter set" that I had when I went to work full time in 1971, and what happened to them:

   13 0z "no name" clawhammer- replaced within a month with a 13 oz true temper (bluegrass); that 1st hammer was impossible to use without glancing off the head of whatever brad I was trying to drive. (Maybe it was the casting mold line down the center of the head?) I learned the first week on the job that either a Plumb or Bluegrass hammer was a good brand to buy. I lost the truetemper hammer on a jobsite, sometime in the 70's, replaced it with a Plumb, which I still use.

   Stanley low angle, adj throat block plane- used daily until 1974, when I dropped it out the window of a house I was trimming out, and it broke.  Replaced with the same make and model plane, which I still have.  I have the nubbins of three irons that I've worn out.

   1/4" and 1/2" Stanley socket firmer chisels. Bought cheap at auction.  Still in use

   1" Buck Bros socket butt chisel.  Gift from dad.  Still in use.

   Disston D-23 12 pt handsaw.  Still in use.

   Union tool comb. square set.  Gift from brother.  Still in use.

   Stanley gent's  dovetail saw.  Replaced with similar saw in the 80's, that is still in use

   Stanley metal spokeshave.  Discarded sometime in the late 70's when I replaced it with an antique wooden shave, worn out in the late 80's, retired and replaced with a shopmade wooden shave.

   Assorted screwdrivers, mostly from sears.  Some still in use, some broken or lost.

   Yankee pushdrill.  Gift from father-in-law to be, it was his father's.  Still in use.

   In 1972, I set up my newly-wed apartment shop (6x10 ft) with:

   7-1/4" Skil saw.  Used til I burned it up cutting the roof sheeting (too long, too small ext. cord) of my new shop in the mid 80's.  Replaced with similar model

   1/2" Black and Decker drill.  This was a low end model that was in regular use for 10 yrs or so.  Replaced with B-D 3/8" holgun, that is still in use.

   Skil saber saw. Still in use.

   I guess that I have a couple points to make regarding starting out.  One is that I heard early on that "If you're poor, you can't afford cheap tools."  Also, "If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right."  And, "It's a poor craftsman, who blames his tools."  Now you can take this to mean that a good craftsman can do good work with poor tools, but it was put to me in such a context that you shouldn't have a shoddy tool around as an excuse.

   Growing up on a farm, I learned that tools are a necessity, not a temporary adjunct to a hobby that may be abandoned.  An attitude of self sufficiency requires that a homeowner have the means and ability to repair and maintain his house and furniture.  I'm willing to grant that this attitude might be somewhat of an anomaly in this day and time. 

   Finally, I've seen a change for the worse in the quality of bottom-of-the-line tools in the last thirty yrs.  Used to be that even a cheap name-brand tool could be counted on for a certain amount of quality, Skil saws, Black and Decker or Milwaukee drills, Stanley hand tools, Disston hand saws.  Cheaper tools could be found with no-name branding, but the hardware store on main street (where the real men went to buy tools-they didn't "shop" for them back then! ar arr arrh!) didn't carry them.  B-D didn't use plastic for the gears in their "starter" drills then, like they did in the "Industrial-Construction" cordless that I have now.  So it is both more costly, and difficult to sort the sheep from the goats when it comes to choosing a set of tools nowadays.

   Done geezin' now,

   Ray Pine