Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Nov 10, 2002 03:20am | #1

   There is a group in Everett, WA, called Puget Sound Woodworking Center.  They have been around for quite a long time, you can buy in by the hour, pay monthly dues or buy a life-time membership.  Their phone number is 425-252-5677.

   I'll send a message to one of the members if I can find him and maybe he will respond to your post.  No promises. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   JamesC67 | Nov 10, 2002 03:36am | #2

   My quesion is how does school systems get away with insurance problems on students and If you could do somthing along those same lines. Also ask your insurance agent if you had sighned wavers releasing you of any and all liability in case somone gets hurt if somthing like that would work. One more thing maybe you could have peolpe sighn a contract with you saying that they are sub-contracting your tools and facilities but they have to give you a copy of their liability insurance form they have on themselves and your tools incase of fire or accident do to user neglegence.   Well I hope these suggestions may be of some help or at the very least give you somthing to think about.

       JIM C  the"PUTTERIN YANKEE" woodworking shop

1. 
   fredsmart48 | Nov 10, 2002 05:34am | #3

   The courts have held you can’t sign your right to sue. The hold harmless agreements are for the people who don’t know that you can’t sign away your right to sue. That works until some attorney shows up.

   You might get away with forming one or two corporation one that owns the tools and building. That one would then lease it the second corporation. That may help protect you and your home and tools and building but it might not depends on how personally involved you are in the day to day running of the shop.

   Your best defense is large amount of liability insurance.

   schools get away with it by not having allot of accidents. second by only having one or two insurance companies insuring the whole state you get a grope rates. As I under stand it some schools are dropping their shop selling the equipment because of the insurance is going up.

3. 
   mgumaer | Nov 10, 2002 04:11pm | #4

   I am a lawyer in New York. Laws vary from state to state of course. Your insurance agent aught to be able to get you a general liability policy with appropriate limits (appropriate judged by how you feel about risk and probably whether you'll be a corporation, DBA, partnership or other type of legal entity). You will want at least a million dollar policy (Think of a surgeon losing a fistful of fingers on a table saw and making a 30 year lost wage claim and you can see how fast a million dollars can be spent).

   You really aught to bite the bullet and sit down with an attorney to discuss your planned business and what is an appropriate legal entity to form, appropriate insurance coverages, etc. You may want patrons to sign a 'hold harmless' agreement. While widely thought to be ineffective (see above post), they can be effective depending on your jurisdiction and the type of claim.

   If you're going to sell machinery as well as have folks in to use it, you will want to make sure that your insurance covers both the retail sales and people coming in to use the equipment.

   Again, you really aught to speak with a lawyer in your state. I know everybody hates to pay for advice, but, being a litigation (and primarily an insurance defense) attorney, you don't want to be stuck with inadequate or inappropriate coverage. Good luck.

   Matt

4. 
   PTurtiak | Nov 11, 2002 11:00pm | #5

   What you are suggesting is you will "RENT" the building and tools to the end user.  The rental companies must have come across this issue many times over.

   Another issue to consider is when one of your customer's sue another customer for something that happened on your premises using your tools.  Unfortunately you will probably be added to the litigation.

1. 
   mondakman | Nov 11, 2002 11:19pm | #6

   I guess I would not want to call it "renting", but let each and every person buy shares, so they would actually be owners of the woodworking shop them selves. Then arrive at a monthly fee for, lets say, the use of heat or electricity, or something that anyone would be hard pressed to sue over. I guess in this day and age you need to make sure yer butt is covered.

   I find it odd that there is only one other place in the country that is doing the same thing I am interested in doing. I do have their name and number, but haven't had the chance yet to give them a phone call.

   I do thank all how have shed light on this venture.

   mondak

5. 
   BiotechBill | Nov 12, 2002 07:23pm | #7

   I'll chime in here, I was a member of just such a club in Pasadena. He sold time by the hour and month as well as memberships. He also taught classes in mission furniture, cabinets, boxes and turning. It was a great experience and I learned a lot, however, the place did go out of business after about 4 years of operation. With out that transitional experience I would not had the confidence required to spend the amount of money for the tools in my garage/shop. That being said, if you are interested, I can put you in touch with the former owner so you can get another perspective (I have always been a proponent of learning from failures as well as successes). Just send me an email if you are interested.

   Bill ([email protected])

6. 
   watkinsjd | Nov 12, 2002 08:55pm | #8

   I am a CPA (not actively practising) and I see some serious issues related to selling shares and creating ownership.

   One, it would seem that instead of shielding yourself from liability you would be spreading out the liability to all of the "owners".  This is what insurances companies do very well.  One of the shareholders could still sue all of the others in case of injury.

   Two is income and income taxes.  If I am a part owner of a business I would like to have the benefits of ownership such as a share of the profits. Would you pay dividends if there was a profit?  What about if there is a loss?  What happens when you quit, die, etc.

   Three, how do you maintain each "owner's" equity balance?  If they are owners they should share in the growth or decline in value of the organization.  Every time a change in membership occured the equity of each owner whould probably change.

   Four, if you were sued, the court would probably decide your scheme to make everyone an owner was just to avoid liability (which is true) and nail your tail anyway!

   Just bite the bullet and get a good lawyer and accountant if you want to pursue you goal of having others pay for your tools.

   JDW

   Stupidity should be painful!  John Wayne didn't say it but I bet he would like to have.

1. 
   mondakman | Nov 12, 2002 09:10pm | #9

   JDW

   You have brought to lite some issues I had not even considered, but, I have talked breifly with a lawyer friend of mine and told him what I was up too. He is going to do a little research for me and let me know. If he has good word, I will then get hold of my accountant/CPA.

   I have no intention of having this shop so they, the woodworkers, can pay for my tools. I already have a full shop of quality woodworking equipment. My plan was to stock this facility (another totally different building) with new tools. No greed or satisfaction on my part, except to let those without have access to a desent shop, at a fair price, but still covering my hiny.

   Thanks,

   mondak

1. 
   watkinsjd | Nov 13, 2002 12:36am | #10

   Sorry to infer your motives were less than admirable.  I was probably thinking of why I would do something like that :=)

   JDW

2. 
   forestgirl | Nov 13, 2002 01:01am | #11

   Here's the link for all to see (for Puget Sound Woodworking Center)

   http://www.pswc.net

   It isn't purely a co-op.  They also sell tools and lumber.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)