steel city 13″ helical head planer
I purchased steel city’s new 13″ planer and i have to say what a disappointment. The only thing it has going for itself is the noise level, its much quieter. The quality of cut is far from superior and that is what they state you will get “a superior finish”. I got the same amount of tearout from straight knives, NO less. The downside is you actually have to do more work, be prepared to spend a lot of time sanding out those RIDGES, they are not like your typical insert lines. I called steel city and sent a sample and they said thats a great cut. My business is woodworking, thought it might be nice to take this planer to jobs, but thats not going to happen, stick with the straight knives, you’ll save yourself a big headache and tons of grief and not to mention regret. I guess my standards are just much higher than steel citys
Replies
Thanks for posting. I was considering buying this within in the next 6 months, but wanted to hear the reviews. You are right to be disappointed -can you take it back? I am surprised about the customer service response. Considering the background of the management of Steel City, this kind of quality should be flagged.
Could you post a picture of the wood?
I installed a Byrd head in the DeWalt planner and am very satisfied with the results. Especially with birds eye maple.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
i was going to do the same, the byrd head is an excellent cutterhead.
as for the pic its difficult to see but what you get are alternating high cuts and low cuts, the knives do not have a radius so you get the full profile of the knife, on to the wood. so basically you are getting a knife streak that starts high then the next row is a bit lower, then back to high and so fourth. steel city said that is how is cuts. very disappointing.
That doesn't sound right. I have a Byrd shelix head in my jointer, and if you look closely at the carbide inserts, the cutting edges are slightly radiused, matching the radius of the cutting circle. The net result is a cut surface that is essentially flat. Is it absolutely perfect? No. If you hold the board up to the light and look at it at a grazing angle, you can see "tracks." But they're nearly imperceptible--you can't feel them with your hands. They're less pronounced than the cross-grain scallops that you get from a normal straight-knifed jointer. A once-over with a smoothing plane or P120 in a random-orbit sander and they're gone.I attribute the tracks to minor imperfections in the seating of the carbide inserts. If you're getting major tracks, it could be that one or more inserts is either mismachined or seated improperly.As for the quality of cut, the carbide knives aren't going to help much if you plane a straight-grained board against the grain. But I find that the higher cutting angle does help with curly grain.-Steve
I saw a review in an email from PWW, I think, and it sounded like the inserts were not carbide. The comment was " some would prefer carbide." I just went to the Steel City web site and they say there are 26 HSS inserts. So this head has inserts but they are not carbide as my Byrd head has on my 15" Yorkcraft Planer. I do not know if this makes a difference in the cut, but it will definately make a difference in how long the inserts stay sharp before they need to be turned.
I had 2 of the Ridgid brand planers, which is the same basic machine as the Steel City, the first was replaced under warranty and the second was returned for a store credit. The problem with both was that the cutterhead would move, upward, regardless of the lock for the head. Planing an 8'' board would start with a 1/32" to a 1/16" cut and back off to nothing over the 8' length. You could watch the handwheel rotate. I had to hold the handwheel in place manually during the cut to keep it from backing off. And the noise was awful! The Byrd head and non-universal motor are very quiet. I have read many reviews in many ww magazines and never saw a mention of this kind of problem with the Ridgid. It makes me wonder how accurate other reviews are.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
"I just went to the Steel City web site and they say there are 26 HSS inserts."
Well, look at that. I had no idea. It looks like the head in the Steel City planer is not a Shelix head, which may explain the less-than-stellar performance. I also can't picture how 26 inserts can possibly be enough for a 13" planer. The Byrd cutterhead I installed in my piddly little 6" jointer has 38 carbide inserts.
I have the Ridgid planer, and have noticed some of the setting creep that you mentioned. But I've figured out a workaround: I loosen the clamp, then move the cutterhead down to within about two turns (1/8") of the desired thickness. Then I tighten the clamp, and then continue setting the position of the cutterhead (downwards only) with the clamp tightened. That seems to take up any backlash in the mechanism. If I go too far, I have to loosen the clamp and back up two full turns, then try again.
Of course, I'm probably destroying the clamping mechanism by doing it this way, and I'm getting a small amount of snipe (I had zero snipe when the machine was new). But I figure I can live with it until I upgrade to a DeWalt DW735 with Shelix cutterhead.
-Steve
Hi Steve, I agree on the small number of inserts; way too few. I don't understand the effort it took to develop an insert cutter-head for a portable planer and then reduce the performance by using an inferior HSS insert system. The carbide inserts are a standard by now and Steel City is trying to re-invent the wheel. Many of Steel City's products are inovative and quality machines, but I don't think this is one of the best.
Regarding the Ridgid planer, I too tried adjusting the head against the lock, and always adjusted down, without backing up, to remove any backlash. On the two machines I had it did not help at all. I used the store credit from the second unit to buy the Ridgid drill press, and I am pleased with that. I had a large bench top drill press previously and had just worn it out. The floor model Ridgid was a nice change.
I really love the Yorkcraft planer with the Byrd Shellix head, it is a really great machine. I was sorry to hear that Yorkcraft went out of the machine business. The planer is virtually identical to the Grizzly, and many other imported planers. They seem to be made in the same factory to the importers specs that only vary in minor cosmetic details. I bought the Byrd head from Yorkcraft and in exchange for them keeping the straight blade head they installed the Byrd head as an even swap before they shipped my unit. I thought that that was a real deal! My other thing that was nice about Yorkcraft was that they uncrated, inspected, and ran every machine before shipment. That gave a lot of reassurance that the unit would perform as they designed it to. It would be nice if all mail order machinery was checked in this fashion.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
this head is not like the Byrd head, the Byrd head is a wonderfully cutting head, this is a straight HSS insert no radius,
I have spoken with Steel City and basically got in an argument with the tech guy and ended up hanging up on him. They are standing behind this new machine, they looked at my sample and again state thats a great cut, when it is far from a great cut. Email mail me direct if you'd like specifics, I just wanted to let you know what I've experienced
We would love to see that sample. SC has built a good reputation so far, but, I suppose that there will be one or two mistakes along the way. I cannot understand why they would use HSS for this. Bummer.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I found a photo of the SC helical head on the website. Here's the link: http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products/40200H/40200H_manual.pdfLike everyone else I'm a bit surprised at the use of only 26 inserts, and the HSS. This planer is the old Ridgid design that had this head retro fitted to it. May not be their best idea. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I went to the local Woodcraft store to check out the Steel City Portable Planer. They would only let me look at it , "But don't touch" he stated they were under "strict orders to not let anyone touch it, go figure? I asked if he could demo it, and that again was a NO. So I guess they must know about the problem. The end result was I left without the Planer I had went to purchase.
I'm glad that we have this forum, to voice our opinions.
Here's a pic, its difficult to get an accurate feel, but those ridges are quite considerable, Steel city says that's a perfect cut. I spent a good amount of time sanding to remove those marks, much more time than with a straight knife or Byrd head.
Thanks...
Sarge..
Yikes!That is REALLY unacceptable. Gives me second thoughts about SC.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Yikes! That wood looks like something I planed after the planer knives knicked a piece of metal.
My DeWalt with freshly sharpened blades create a smooth surface that really needs almost no sanding. And yes I sharpen my knives. The manual says not to but I find if I hone them on a water stone and then some leather, I get several extra months from the blades and they still do a great job.
Edited 4/28/2009 9:00 pm ET by dynamwebz
Mel works at Woodcraft (2) half days a week, I'll ask him what his take is on this "Don't Touch" policy.
Jay
"Quality is not only right, it is free. And it is not only free,
it is the most profitable product line we have." (HAROLD S. GENEEN)
Jay,
Thanks, because it really turned me off of making a purchase. I think if I'm going to lay out almost $700.00, by the time you add in the tax and everything. I should be allowed to see how it performs.
I have been suprised by the negative reviews I have read about the quality of finish it leaves. I have even go so far as to email Steel City about it, but so far no response. At this point I doubt I'll hear anything from them.
Really when you think about it, it is really sad to see how they are handling the problem.
Thanks again,
Taigert
Jay,
The "Don't touch" rule must be a local thing at that particular Woodcraft store. I can't imagine "not touching" a machine while thinking about buying it. If someone at a store told me I couldn't touch a machine, I'd figure that there is a reason for that -- like they figure it might break if someone touched it. The Woodcraft catalog has the phone number of their headquarters in Parkesburg, West Virginia. They like to hear when a customer has a problem at one of the Woodcraft stores, and they look into each complaint. Hope that helps. Of course, if you don't like a policy at a Woodcraft store, you could always ask where the nearest Rockler is. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,
My son and I went straight from Woodcraft to Rockler. That was a joke we couldn't get anyone interested in talking to a customer. I spent about 15 just killing time while they were doing there thing. After we walked all the aisles we decided, to scrap the idea.
I used to work for Rockler, and it was not the way our store was run. We would a the very least say hi & and let the person know you'll be with them asap.
Taigert
For starters... I have not seen the cut of the new 13" planer as it was simply a proto-type at IWF when it was introduced. The picture shown was the first I have seen come off it. I am not a fan of helical cutter-heads (bar none I have seen cuts from) personally as my experiences are that with the exception of maple and a few squirrelly grained woods... I experience smoother cuts with sharp straight knives.
When I saw the picture my first thought was I "would not" except that cut and I personally would not consider the machine... "if indeed" the lines were as deep as they look in the picture. But.. I also take into account pictures can be deceiving so....
I called Jim Box (over technical) and spoke to him.. I also spoke to Mike Box this morning in customer service who received the sample piece from the OP. He took the initial call from the OP which contained a bit of fire and brim-stone. He also took the sample to the shop to see what it would take to clean the lines.
I expect lines of some nature on a helical type head as I stated earlier period. They are just going to be there. Mike told me he cleaned those lines with about 8-10 hand passes from a hand-held block sander using 220 grit paper in under 30 seconds. I would think most WW'ers would opt for a ROS which is more aggressive and a lower grit. I usually clean lines from any planer with an ROS 150 grit.. and move to 180 for final sanding with hard-wood and 220 grit for soft-wood.
So.. maybe the lines aren't as deep as the picture appears? I know Mike who is the son of Scott Box (SC president) as I have worked with him at IWF. Mike is a straight shooter and if he said that he cleaned the lines quickly with 220 hand held.. I believe that.
But... again, I have not seen the lines produced by that planer personally. I also do not know what depth setting the OP used. I saw people walk up to lunch-box planers at IWF and crank them down to over 3/16" and let stock rip through. So... I ask SC to send me a sample or... I will personally take some stock down to Highland WW's here in Atlanta and run it through myself as I do want to see.
Keep in mind with the head this is a $600 planer or what you pay for a DW.. add extensions and then add a $450 head. Again I expect lines on any type of helical head just as I do when I re-saw. Someone might consider the finish coming off one as finish ready but.. that person is certainly not me.
So.. as soon as I personally see the cut and what it takes to clean it up.. this is what I know so far but not all I will know when the smoke clears and that's a promise. I can tell you that every tool company has "hits and misses" but.. the jury is still out IMO until I personally decide for myself which this planer falls under.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/28/2009 1:17 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 4/28/2009 1:20 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks for the feedback. For what its worth, after seeing the cut, I definitely would stay clear of that planer. No matter what its price. This looks like something that would come out of a no name tool imported by Harbor Freight. The customer feedback would also give me pause about SC, in spite of the good reputation so far. *sigh*Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
You might ask the customer if he presented himself from the git-go in manner that both parties should when trying to determine what the problem is and if there is a problem. Is is possible even in customer service to respond in a manner that the original tone was set? And keep in mind conversations can be recorded.. :>)
As already stated...I too looked at the cut in the picture and you heard my thoughts but... after hearing what it took to clean the lines up... I will not pass judgement based on the picture as that can be deceptive. I will see for myself before drawing my conclussion.
Nor will I pass judgement before I ask the question of how deep of a cut the planer was set at to produce that picture. Nobody ask that question but.. conclussions in some cases have already been drawn and finalized. I can go set up my 20 4 cutter-head planer which produces excellent cuts for a deep cut and show you the results which will be a terrible cut. You could draw in conclussion you wished from the posted picture of that cut.. but would it be a correct one without the facts?
Everyone is free to form their opinion however they wish. I just chose to form mine after I do my home-work in lieu of the written word on-line from someone I really don't know. I have heard the other side's version which I do know and for that matter... totally trust to tell me their side of the story.. I don't think I will put 3 excellent Steel City Machines and the same customer service up for sale based on what I have seen and heard here. Hit's and misses.. like to see which before I purchase and with those 3 I already know which.
Perhaps someone that has a Byrd add on might post some pics of stock straight off the planer? I might just make a comparison myself and see how the cuts compare.
Sarge..
Edited 4/28/2009 2:46 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sure. The next time I plane some birds eye, I will try and remember to post a pic. BTW, the Byrd head does make a difference.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Sarge,
As I mentioned in a previous post, I have a Byrd head on my jointer (but not planer). You can't really feel the ridges, although you can kind of imagine them if you already know where they are. And you can only see them if you hold the board up to the light at a grazing angle.
To get a handle on how large the ridges are, I set my smoothing plane to a shallow cut, and took a single pass over the ridged wood. That was enough to completely eliminate them, and then some. I measured the thickness of the shaving at 0.0015", so I think it's safe to say that the depth of the ridges is significantly less than 0.0015".
-Steve
Thanks Steve.. I will try to see one in person in the next several days. The lines in the picture look bad as I stated. My first thought was really bad but.. after speaking to Mike Box who took the initial call and actually took the example received back to the shop to sand... I am not so sure it's all that bad. Several passes with a hand held 220 grit on a block to very smooth according to Mike. That doesn't sound as bad as the picture looks and I am going to find out for myself. It may be.. it may not be.
Frankly I get baby butt smooth off both my 20" HSS planer and my 8" jointer with 8" HSS. But.. any machine line needs to be sanded which I do with a ROS in minutes.. And when I say minutes I have used 140 feet of QSWO on a project still on the burner. Planing to the tune of 90 gallons of shavings so far with the hutch to go. Sanding on all that was done in around 30 minutes..
I somewhat question the technique as nobody ask... no one ask if there was a problem with a cutter-head being jarred out of position.. etc., etc. Those questions should have been asked IMO before just jumping on the band-wagon of Steel City Bandsaw has Major Flaws as happened when Steel City first introduced their line. Table measured without the pin in it and bent guide when it came straight off the crate under dead-line and the expert reviewer didn't take time to see that the guide was micro adjustable.
And that was an expert... what we have here is someone that this is the first post on KNOTS.. and started a thread at Sawmill Creek the same day with their 1st or 2nd post as they have two post there now. So again.. I will see for myself.. Maybe... maybe not.. but I will not pre-judge before I hear and see all the variables. Then and only then will I make a personal conclusion as to Yeah or Nay.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 4/28/2009 5:49 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I can understand SC position, it would be hard to admit putting out an inferior product. But go ahead and purchase 1 and see for yourself, the quality of cut is far from superior, and that is what they state "superior finish", thats the only reason i bought it. But you live and learn, this 1 goes to storage.
And you may be correct about the cut but.. as I stated, I want to have a look physically before I draw my own final conclussion. Just the way I approach things...
What is the species used in the photo? It appears to have spalt but really hard to tell as the picture has a very yellow tinting.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/28/2009 7:42 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge -Everyone here really appreciates your assistance and support of steel city, but I think you may be fighting a losing battle. I'm not sure if the OP did any research on the matter before purchasing this planer (as he states he bought it because SC claims it gives a 'superior finish') nor does it seem that he has taken the time to do any research with regards to the basics of cutter-head geometry. If he had, he would understand what to expect and that not every head that has inserts and is round performs like the original byrd.Look for a sample from him...see what you get and judge. I personally wouldn't let one bad egg ruin the bunch! Chris
So, is your message "buyer beware"?I have not touched the wood in question. But, but for a moment, let us assume that one is influenced by a company's reputation. And a good one in SC's case. Such company's selling claim for this product is a superior finish. The head is not the usual three blades but those new (for woodworkers) multi head cutters. That most everyone is enthusiastic about. I would argue that a buyer shouldn't have to investigate a product with a mechanical engineers curiosity to buy such a tool.So one plunks down many hundreds of hard earned after tax dollars and is disappointed to say the least. And then to be told that that is normal? I think I would also be a wee bit hot under the collar.It is an unfortunate situation. As for <<let one bad egg ruin the bunch>>, well I tip my hat to SC if everything they design and make will always be perfect and beyond criticism.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
"I would argue that a buyer shouldn't have to investigate a product with a mechanical engineers curiosity to buy such a tool."I agree - but one should be an informed consumer. There are inferior and superior designs for everything. Basing ones decision to buy something based on the manufacturers claim that it provides a 'superior finish' is not a good way to determine this. Understanding the basics of multi-cutter technology, or even simple cutting geometry, is a good place to start.Chris
A spade is a spade, Chris. So.. I don't see finding out what suit the planer falls in as a battle. Just merely a search for the truth and when I am satisfied I have found it for myself I will state what I feel it is without bias. Off the top I think that Superior Cut which the OP is presenting as defense is nothing more than an advertising department presentation which I have seen on many ads for tools. But... as you.... I don't think a lot of homework was done in this case to determine if it is indeed a Superior cut.
As far as responsibility of having to research a tool as Peter says he should not... I seriously doubt that Peter has purchased any tool he owns by simply reading the advertising agency presentation. I know Peter well enough from his posting to know he is saavy with tools and he didn't get that way by reading manufacturers ads. So.. I personally think his arguments is principle and not what I would call reality.
I see the cut in the picture and it looks bad on paper but.. just how bad is it really? I have been told that it was cleaned in under 30 seconds with 220 grit which doesn't suggest to me that is as bad as it looks. I shall see for myself as I really don't feel any helical head is going to produce a cut without some lines nor as good as straight knives that are sharp with exceptions of highly figured wood which one should skew through their straight knife planer or jointer for that matter.
But... in our internet world the helical are highly tauted and would leave one that doesn't know to believe they should get a cut that can go straight to finish. The same as those that will taut a carbide bandsaw blade with finish ready cut (perhaps on glue side but not show side.. I can do that with a bi-metal which cost 1/4 of a carbide. The same as those that will claim their tablesaw blade leaves a cut glue ready as good as their jointer can produce.
My reality is I don't believe everything in Advertisements and I don't believe everything I read on an inter-net. I have a look for myself and then I believe what I see and experience. This is why I question what has happened here so far. I simply am going to take it a step farther and not accept something for fact that I feel very little research was done on. How anyone else determines facts and draws conclusions is their personal business.
So... bottom line is guilty as "charged" or.. shall I examine the evidence before I render a verdict? Yeah.. I guess I am a bit old fashioned when it comes to principles and believes everyone should look before they leap. Have we lost the responsiblity of watching out for ourselves thinking the internet has all the information we really need?.. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/29/2009 10:51 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 4/29/2009 10:57 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thank you for your kind words. Yes I am a bit of a nerd when it comes to checking out possible tool buys. Not everyone else is however.In a somewhat related way I am in need of a slightly bigger band saw (now have an old 14" Delta which I plan to keep for delicate work). So I went back and re-read your great review of your SC buy. Post 32538.1Because of that SC is in the final list. I do wish they still made a 16" saw. That is my sweet spot. Might have to settle on the 18" model. Gawd, I need more floor space.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Surprisingly.. the 18" doesn't take more floor space than a 16" but.. it is taller which is not a concern unless you have 6' ceilings which I doubt very seriously.. One that know tools would have avoided anything under 8' most likely. ha.. ha...
Regards....
Sarge..
Any thoughts on the Resaw King blades from Laguna? They make a point of no set and can be resharpened. Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Again.. no thoughts as I have not used one. I have used the Lennox Carbide Tri-master and Lennox 3/4" bi-metal. I hitch up the bi-metal for my work as it gives an excellent cut and I can buy 4 for the price of one carbide. As far as going dull the Carbide will last about 2-2 1/2 times longer than the bi-metal. But with 4 for the price of one.. advantage me in how long it will stay sharp for the same money out-lay IMO.
Now if Laguna wants to send me one of those blades... I'd be happy to test it and post the results. But.. not likely. :>)
I've spent some time today trying to line up a planer local to test on but... one source doesn't have one and the other is not set up for cutting as no dust collection on their showroom and they turned me down so... I have to go do some building on a hutch at some point and that is going to be now under the circumstances..
Sarge..
Sarge..
Edited 4/29/2009 3:01 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Peter,
A little of topic, but what the heck?
What do you think of the Rikon band saws? I need a new 14" and was impressed with a friends review. he was telling me it has a great resaw capacity. I want to see what it can really do with the motor it comes with. I think it maybe underpowered?
Taigert
That is one I have to find locally to check out. So far no success :-(
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Disregard that I cannot find a machine locally. The original sample is was placed on Fed Ex yesterday and should arrive at my door this morning. Jim decided to send it to me a he will not personally work on this himself as he is leaving the company as of the end of this week to start his own machine repair company. The reason for un-answered e-mails as he it trying to wrap up loose ends. He will attempt to catch them up before his departure. Keep in mind the phones are not broken. :>)
So... when I recieve the board along with another piece of red oak that was cut yesterday in-house.. I will post those pictures and describe to you what I see physically in lieu of just a picture which may or may not be deceptive? As I stated earlier... I shall see for myself.
Sarge..
Edited 4/30/2009 11:07 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Fed Ex showed about 10 minutes after I last posted. I took it immediately to the shop for photos. On one side of the cherry sample the OP had written with a pencil.. original cut. That will be picture Sample 1. On the end of that board about 3" has been sanded with a hand pass of 220 grit by Mike Box. Just to be sure... I took a piece of 320 grit and to see how it would do which I will state below.
The Sample 2 picture the OP had written Cut after re-seating? Perhaps turning one of the four sides around to another position? I cannot say for sure and you would have to ask the question of the OP to be totally clear what was meant. But.. the cutter ridge is not as distinct as noted in the original cut side picture.
Sample 3 is a cut made yesterday with an in-house machine on a piece of red oak that was left un-sanded. BTW.. the piece of QSWO these samples were resting on for the picture is done with a 20" straight knife planer with around 3000 linear feet on those blades currently on it since they were changed.
I tested the original side that was submitted and had the end sanded about 3" by SC customer service. I used 320 grit as I wanted to see if a higher grit would take it off. Two light passes using finger pressure erased the lines left by the cutter-head. I could not measure the depth of the line as I have no micro measurers to read it accurately. I would guess something similar to what Steve posted with his Byrd helical head. Maybe slightly more as you can't eyeball .001 and under.. at least I can't.
So.. what I see is a definite ridge line caused by the cutter-head and enhanced by the picture. Oh.. you can definitely see it physically outside a picture but.... it can be taken off easily with a slight pass of sand-paper as I was told. I run an ROS on everything that comes off my planer and the 150 grit I start with would have made it disappear like Houdini.. much less a light pass with 220 or 320 as I used.
Do I feel the cut is Superior as the Advertisement states. No.. Do I feel the cut is as good as my straight knife planer straight off the machine. No... Do I feel it is acceptable for a helical head planer based on the cuts I have seen off the one's I've used and witnessed? Yes.. As good as the Byrd... I don't know as again... perhaps someone with a Byrd head mounted on a DW can post a picture.
I do not personally feel any planer.. re-saw blade.. TS blade is going to leave a cut smooth enough to finish as I stated. But... I don't feel the cut off this sample warrants throwing the machine in a shed as the a light sanding that is going to happen with any planer is required to get it finish ready anyway.
So... draw your own conclusions and if you don't feel good about what is presented go make the comparison before you buy. I have always stated compare side by side with machines and then make a decision of which is best to you. That theory applies here also.
Now.. it's recess time for me and I'm NOW going to build a hutch come h*ll or high water.
Edited 4/30/2009 12:05 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I am out of town for a couple of days, but I will try to take some test cuts and photos over the weekend.-Steve
Thanks Steve, as it might help people that have only read about the Bryd head make a decision if they want to spend that much for one. My decision was made personally long ago but I am sure there are many on the fence that are trying to make a decision on what's best for them currently.
And I suggest when you post that you actually describe the depth.. etc. of the cut as frankly.. I find the pictures somewhat deceptive as I suspected. In this case.. notice the the variance in the planed piece and the sanded piece. In the picture it make the obvious cuttter-head line look much worse than it actually was when I actually saw it physically.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/30/2009 6:00 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Okay, here are a few photos; Byrd shelix head on a Ridgid 6" jointer on yellow-poplar. First is a lengthwise grazing-angle photo; you can see the track lines, barely:
View Image
And here is a view with the light at an extreme grazing angle from the side, to highlight the deviations from flat:
View Image
As you can see, rather than hard-edged tracks, the shelix head creates very shallow scallops. This is because the cutting edges are curved across their widths.
Here's a close-up of the same thing at maximum resolution:
View Image
The scallops aren't more than one or two fibers deep.
Finally, here's a shot of a straightedge laid across the piece, with the light coming from behind. You can see the approximately periodic undulations in the surface:
View Image
-Steve
Steve,
Great post, backed up with clear, concise photos. I have a byrd shelix on my jointer as well, but didn't really have time to take and upload photos. My Byrd head leaves exactly the same finish as yours.
Lee
Everyone interested should thank you for taking the time, Steve. That is pretty much what I have seen with the Bryds with the trace lines. And of course they can be cleaned easily as that is the point I made with the SC planer. The lines on it look worse but... they are micro deep emphasized even more by the coloring on the cherry board.
But.. the Bryd does not look a deep and considering they cost almost as much to add than the whole SC planer shouldn't be as Tom Byrd has been perfecting his awhile to say the least. I met him a IWF and a pretty nice guy but all business.
Again.. hopefully these pictures will aid someone considering the differences in HSS and a couple of angles on helical cutters. They should look carefullly at a purchase point with the price of machinery these days. :>)
Regards....
Sarge..
Edited 5/3/2009 10:12 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Wow! This thread was like walking into the bathroom and seeing the toilet had overflowed.
It was good to see the comparison between Byrd/Helical/Straight cutterheads. I had been contemplating a Byrd head, or upgrading my jointer to get one with a helical head, but after seeing the comparisons here I think I'll just stick with what I've got.
Thanks to Sarge and Steve for their excellent reviews/photos.
Edited 5/3/2009 10:51 pm ET by pzaxtl
I had hesitated slightly because my question might be slightly off topic but I see it is much closer to topic than some other posts on this thread.
I have a planer with the Byrds. It is still new to me, it seems to plane very smoothly but the spools that push it through leave a nice track on the underside in some places, not on other places. The board would definitely need sanding. Is this normal?
"The board would definitely need sanding. Is this normal?" It's normal for any board coming of any planer to need sanding. AFAIK, all planer heads leave some machine traces behind.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Then I don't see the huptaloo about the helical blades leaving a mark that isn't normally visible.
Sarge,
I think we would all like to see photos taken in a similar fashion coming of the straight knife cutterhead. Of course all undulations and such would be cross grain and representitative of cuts per inch. Do helical/shelix head use same terminology? It would really be interesting to see how straight knives compare.Chris
Here's one more photo of the same board from earlier, this time with the grazing light coming from the end. To give some comparison, the cross-grain scallops that you see here from the Byrd head are comparable to those from a straight-knife cutterhead. (The scallops are primarily a function of the diameter of the cutterhead and the feed speed, which are the same in either case.)
View Image
Notice that the longitudinal scallops are all but invisible in the cross-grain photo, while the cross-grain scallops are all but invisible in the longitudinal photo. It goes to show how smooth the cut really is--the depth of the scallops is miniscule.
-Steve
Chris... the wide panels (QSWO) the photo's of the OP's cut were laying on to take the picture had been planed on my 20" Yorkcraft about two days before taking that picture. Those knives have about 3000 linear feet on them so...
But.. maybe I will run some maple.. cherry.. alder.. oak.. (that's what I have on hand scrap) through today to give you a better idea. I think I have a scrap of both soft and hard maple?. Anyway... if you wish I will take the time to do so as I do have to use my 20" today to take down a hutch top to prep for finish.
Regards...
Sarge..
I guess I was thinking pics along the lines of the byrd pics posted. Funny my interest in this as I hand plane every surface that comes out of my machine. As long as I dont have chunks of wood flying out, it's all good either way!Chris
Sorry Chris, as I am no photographer. Just a picture taker and there is a difference. I see no need to hand-plane with what comes out of a planer personally but... my stock does generally get several passes with a hand held scraper to remove any trace of machine lines before I use 150-180 grit paper. It eliminates any need for 120 IMO and frankly.. I could probably go to 180 and skip the 150.
BTW... FWW has some great photographers and I suggest you submit a suggestion that an article comparing great pictures of helical heads vs HSS knives would make a good read as there is a need to educate those new to the hobby that have not seen both for themselves before they make a decision. I am not paid by anyone so... going into depth as that simply takes too much of my time which is valuable to me and I am shy of resources. The same could be said of photos from wide belt sanders.. drum sanders.. etc. Not a lot out there and that is a shame in a way.
Sarge..
Edited 5/5/2009 10:59 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thats a good idea!
Steve,
Great post, and the photos with low-angle raking light really highlighted the planer's knife tracks. An interesting visualization to be sure.
The shallow scallops were about what I expected, and I understand they can be eliminated relatively easily - with probably about the same effort required to eradicate straight-knife scallops?
I recall from an earlier post that you said you had the Ridgid planer, and now you're showing photos of a board planed with a Ridgid with a Byrd head. Does that mean you decided to upgrade your Ridgid? Or is this from someone else's planer?
I also remember you said you were having trouble locking the Ridgid's head sufficiently to keep it from moving upward during a cut. Did you ever get that doped out and fixed?
I'm getting near to buying a lunchbox planer and the Ridgid seems like a reasonable deal. But I visited a fellow woodworker's shop the other day, and his Ridgid does the same thing - with the locking device not holding the head securely enough to keep it from traveling upward during a cut. He hadn't looked into how to fix it yet though. And, when I was there, I was too distracted by his 3-phase 12 inch Crescent jointer to really pay much attention to this little planer..
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolty,
Yes, the tracks can be eliminated with a single very light pass with a smoothing plane, or P120 in a random orbital sander.
The Byrd head is mounted in my Ridgid jointer, not planer. As for the planer, apart from the trick I mentioned earlier of adjusting to the final thickness with the cutterhead lock engaged, I don't have any magic technique. I suspect that if it gets bad enough, I'll take the locking mechanism apart and look inside to see if I can figure out why there's so much backlash. And then I'll buy the DeWalt.
The current model offered by Ridgid (4330) is not the same as the one that I have (which is also the one that the Steel City machine is based on). The new one has a three-knife cutterhead, and is supposed to have a more secure thickness adjustment. But I don't have any experience with it.
-Steve
Steve,
The fact that you used a JOINTER and not your PLANER for the board you photographed slipped past me completely. Geez, great attention to detail on my part, eh?
Thank you for your reply.
Presumably then, Ridgid - hearing all the complaints about the head-lock mechanism - addressed them in the new model of their planer. I'm going to have to do more research about this, but it's good to know some of the nuances about the one you have.
Thanks again..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hi Sarge.
In one sense SC has painted itself into a corner over this because it's stopped making its own straight-blade lunchbox in favour of the doctored Ridgid. Like you, I prefer the straight-blade, so I'd have to look elsewhere if I were buying new. As it happens I have the "old" SC lunchbox planer ( good enough machine) which I bought 2 years ago in the expectation that the model would have some legs. Turned out to be a Pontiac. That was the year they were touting the portable dust collector, which also seems to have disappeared without trace. Same story with some of their tablesaws -- it's bewildering to keep up with model changes. I'm all for updating and improving, but I think most customers looking to invest in a brand would prefer more stability, if only to be sure of parts down the road.
Cheers, Jim
I agree on the straight knives as I've stated many times, Jim. But... I suppose you have to listen to the masses who are convinced you can't plane without having a helical head or take the time to change knives.. for whatever reason. I just got off the phone with Holbren ordering a set of T1 straight knives for my 20". I've only run about 14,000 linear feet through the current set and I know I will have to change someday when this set is sharpened to the point that nothing it left to work with similar to the set of Maples Blue Beaters I purchased around 1975. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
"Same story with some of their tablesaws -- it's bewildering to keep up with model changes. I'm all for updating and improving, but I think most customers looking to invest in a brand would prefer more stability"
My understanding of the model changes is twofold - first, all new saws are required to have riving knives (by law) and SC dropped some saw in order to simplify model selection. Take that all with a grain of salt.
Chris
"But you live and learn, this 1 goes to storage." OB, this statement seems to sum up your determination to not let Steel City provide a solution to your dilemma. The best customer service staff in the world cannot solve a CS problem when the complainant won't sit at the table with a problem-solving mind-set.
I see lots of people jumping to conclusions here, without complete information (see Sarge's posts as to info missing).
Last point: Why put it in storage? Sell the darned thing for half-price if, as you believe, it's an inferior tool. What is the logic in paying to store a tool you hate? Equates to both physical and mental baggage.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sarge,
I fully agree that a person needs more information than the pic alone. I emailed SC with questions along the same direction as you went. I wanted the other side of the story, from them. What ticks me off is NO response to my email, I find that more of a problem. The one big thing I do expect is customer service from any company I deal with, or plan to deal with.
I would really like to see how this works out when you get a chance to get down to Highland.
Taigert
"What ticks me off is NO response to my email, I find that more of a problem." Hmmmmmm...what standing do you have in this issue that would command SC to discuss someone else's customer service dispute? Methinks that's expecting a bit much -- my personal opinion. Sarge has a long-standing relationship with them, one that includes relaying information to this board and it's members. Perhaps I missed something here?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
My ? to SC was more along the lines of asking if there has been a problem and if so do they have a solution.
Also when I had a question about Sawstop, rhe President of the company picked up the phone and answered my qustion. You never get a answer, if you don't ask.
I meant to let you know the Saw mill we were talking about is interested in letting me take some pics. Mel said he wants to do some clean up first. But that has to wait till the crops are in the ground. We have had so much rain that the farmers have had trouble getting the tractors out in the fields. So now ther busting there butts on the hot days we have had this past week. It's been hitting the 90's
I'll keep you posted,
Taigert
Would love to see some pictures from the mill, or even better an article in FWW if Taunton finds it interesting!
Woe be the farmer, one of the hardest jobs I can imagine. In the Sacramento Valley, where I used to live, they called the soil "Midnight soil" because when it was ready to be tilled, it was a very small window, might be at midnight, LOL! So much clay in it, it couldn't be too wet or too dry, or you couldn't work it. We were surrounded by tomato fields, alfalfa fields and...memory fails what else....but the farmers worked their tails off.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
I don't think you gave Taigert good advice." "What ticks me off is NO response to my email, I find that more of a problem." Hmmmmmm...what standing do you have in this issue that would command SC to discuss someone else's customer service dispute? Methinks that's expecting a bit much -- my personal opinion. Sarge has a long-standing relationship with them, one that includes relaying information to this board and it's members. Perhaps I missed something here?"IMHO, there is NEVER an excuse for a company to not answer a call or an email. All calls and emails should be answered quickly and appropriately. That is just good business, and it takes someone with a good sense of how to handle people, both nice folks and cranks. If Taigert is unhappy with how someone else got treated, I think he is right in calling the company and adding his two cents in. If the first person really had a legitimate problem, then a slew of calls coming in to the company will help insure the problem is fixed. Please note that I have no knowledge of what actually happened. I read in one of the messages that the original caller was a difficult case. I do not condone such behavior. But the reason I wrote to you was that I like it when people take their own advice. When they don't, I begin to wonder. For example, you said to Taigert "what standing do you have in this issue?" Your clear implication was that if it isn't your issue, then stay out of it. Well, my question to you, "What standing to you have in this issue?" Why didn't you take your own advice, and just stay out of it?Is my point too subtle? I don't think so. I have read your stuff for years and you are an intelligent person. I feel that you get a bit preachy once in a while, and are a bit of a "goody two shoes" on occassion, but what the heck, we need a few more people like Sgt Preston of the Yukon. I used to be a bit more like you. I even tried to censure Boss Crunk and get him to use only one name, and not to be nasty. Guess what? It didn't work. I tried to get Derek to be very upfront and admit that one cant be unbiased in reviews of a tool that they have helped design and have gotten for free. In response, Derek got a bit nasty and did a little name calling. Also, I got a call from Gina, asking (telling) me to lay off of Derek. Of course, all of this would make great fodder for a preacher in concocting a talk on "casting the specks out of the eyes of others rather than the beams out of our own eyes." Any here you are, telling Taigert to mind his own business. And here I am asking you to take your own advice.Everyone seems to be immune from taking advice. We love to offer our advice to others. The difficult thing on Knots is to figure out whose advice should be taken. Of course, to do that, one should examine the advice and see if it stands up to acid test. Philosophically, it is a very interesting topic.Asking you to improve is a bit like gilding a lily. You are already in the "very good" zone. So I hope you take this as it was meant, which was, in the same vein that you offered the advice to Taigert. You would want him to at least consider your advice. I ask no more of you. Please consider what I have said. That is all. I don't ask that you change your behavior. I have never seen anyone change their behavior based on advice here on Knots. That is too much to ask. But I think it is ok to ask another person, especially one as intelligent, insightful, and good looking as you, to think about an idea. That is all I ask. I am cutting back on my behavioral advice here on Knots to almost nil. Once in a while, I can't help by try to help Lataxe out. That is because I believe he is not beyond help (but I may be wrong), and I also believe that he is worth saving. I am just not so sure of my own role as a Saviour. After all, who died and left me in charge? Even if I have the best of intentions, what business is it of mine? Which is of course, the same question that you asked Taigert.I hope you have a nice day. I hope that I have done the greatest thing that anyone can do for another on Knots -- to give them food for thought which actually gets them to think. Whether or not they come to the conclusion that one intends is irrelevant. The real thing is to get them to think. Enjoy. Hug a grandchild. I do that every chance I get. And I don't worry about folks here on Knots who want me to be a different person. You shouldn't either. We are all better off on Knots if we give advice on woodworking and not on personal behavior. This advice and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I need to take it myself. :-) I am not being self effacing, just being truthful and realistic. I have far too many beams in my own eyes to give you advice on taking a mere spec out of yours. MelPS someday lets talk about appropriate behavior for customers in a woodworking tool store. I will give you about 50 things that real people have done to me, and I will put my responses to them in an attachment, so you can come up with how you would have responded before you find out what I did. I believe you will find that even though I am Italian, I am one of the evenest tempered folks you will ever run across. My biggest fault is that I like to tackle problems that others think are not possible - for example, I tried to rehabilitate Charles Stanford. If you want to try a difficult case, don't worry about Taigert. Instead, try Charles.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I didn't read your entire post, it got a bit tedious. My question to Taigert was a sincere one -- wanting to know what standing he had with SC such that they would discuss someone else's problem with him. IMHO, it's a relevant question, for a simple reason: what with the internet, and forums, and dozens if not hundreds of people getting "involved" in a member's complaint about a company, the staff of that company would go nuts trying to respond to everyone who fired off an email about the (now public) conflict. Occasionally, we'll get a rep who posts here, most notably Charles from Freud (used to see Rob Lee from Lee Valley occasionally). That's a great solution, but hardly any companies take that approach.
The boards here are pretty much a free-for-all -- we're all members, and free to post when and where we desire. The vast majority of posts these days, I simply peruse and mosey on. Some, I get involved in. Wherever my fancy takes me, and I don't feel I need to defend or justify.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
We have an honest difference of opinion. The real question for the Knots Police is to figure out "what is a problem worth working on"? There are a few REAL issues on Knots, and the Knots Police, like yourself, ignore them. Instead you found a guy who was interested enough to go to bat for something he believed, and you asked him why he got involved. That is why I asked you why you got involved. It is not that you had no business getting involved. It is that you are wasting your time swatting at gnats. So what if somebody goes to someone else's aide on an issue. It doesn't matter if either the OP or the second person is right or wrong. What is GOOD is that they have a forum. In any forum, some people are going to push too hard. I work at Woodcraft and I see "crazy customers" every once in a while. One can only wonder what caused them to become so. It is not my job to "fix crazy people", or let me put it more exactly "To fix people I think are crazy". There is a great woodworker here on Knots (actually lots of them) who tends to push his arguments a little too hard. So the Knots police ousted him. After a while, I noticed he was missing, and I missed his knowledge and wisdom. If I were him, I would not push so hard, but I am not him. Having him here and getting a big pushy is MUCH BETTER than causing him to leave. By doing that the Knots Police punished me - by removing his wisdom from my access.I called in and as a result, he was reinstated. He is still a bit testy, and that is fine with me. Once you know him, you find that it is merely "his way". The Knots Police remind me of the real police who go after the drug user, and not the drug supplier. Why, because it is easy, and they can "show progress". I heartily suggest that you get the Police to discuss what their goals should be -- what types of problems they should be solving. Here is one: Do not let anyone use more than one name on Knots. It doesn't matter what name they use, but JUST ONE. Charles Stanford can't help himself. He plays games with people by using new names. I don't want to see Charles go away. He is one of the most savvy woodworkers on Knots. BUT the KNots police can help the rest of us by limiting him and everyone else to a SINGLE NAME. Here is a second. Now KNots has identified Experts and KNots Police with symbols. Why not let everyone who is identified with a company put a "$" next to their name, or any other symbol. Clearly, Mike is a great and fun woodworker, but he also sells saws. Routerman is an expert with a router, but he sells router accessories. I have never seen Mike W. shill for himself, but Routerman often tells people to go to his website. I am not saying that you can't trust Philip, but newbies need to know that he is in business to sell planes. Derek works for Lee Valley. I work for Woodcraft. WE SHOULD BE IDENTIFIED for the good of newbies.I recommend that the Knots Police come up with a set of stated policies of what they will go after.I received a call from the Knots police asking (telling) me to stop with the argument that Derek works for Lee Valley and should put this on his website, because his review of tools which he helped design and got in return for doing a review cannot be considered unbiased. I brought up the fact that I did not call Derek any names, and did not act "mean" in any way. Derek did get into name calling, and his friend, Lataxe got downright nasty. Did they get calls? I think not. This was just before Derek got put on the Knots Police. My point was VERY VALUABLE, and it was agreed with publicly by a number of professionals here on Knots. I did a service by pointing out an issue that is as plain as the nose on my face (I am Italian.) Yet the Knots Police came after me -- with no statement as to what I had done wrong. I believe they just didn't want "dissention" on Knots, and didn't want a future member of the Knots police to be discussed. This is not the end of the world. I don't think most of the Knots Police are paid, so one can't expect much. But one can expect them to:
1) identify and solve MAJOR ISSUES like multiple names, and to leave small issues like the guy you reprimanded aline.
2) come up with a set of policies that they will "enforce".The thing that I bring to Knots is a desire to think more deeply about woodworking issues. I try to get others to think more deeply, instead of the sound-bite approach that many take. (eg your negative reference to my long message) I use humor to probe issues to "take the edge off". I ask hard questions. I NEVER ATTACK A PERSON, but I do go after what I think are bad ideas if I think it is worth the effort. IT is only by incisive discussion that issues can be penetrated deeply enough to get below the surface. In difficult discussions, there is a tendency for some people to go too far. THat happens all the time on the web. DON"T IGNORE THAT. PRAISE IT. THAT IS WHAT THIS FORUM HAS AS ITS MAIN ADVANTAGE. Some people will get personal. Let them! They shoot themselves in the foot by doing so. They kill their own credibility. There are a bunch of folks who I don't pay attention to anymore.I wrote this because I care. At Woodcraft, I OFTEN, that is, many times a week, recommend that customers with problems JOIN KNOTS, because it is such a great problem solving mechanism. I am a big fan of Knots because it can actually work!! It is the best bargain in all of woodwork!! I want the Knots Police to be there and to do what needs to be done. I want them to identify the issues they will handle and let the rest of us know. I want them to solve big problems, like multiple names. But I don't want them to be telling folks to not go to the defense of someone they think has a point (as you did), or to excommunicate members for getting too rambunctious. (There are limits, but I have not seen anyone come close.) While I would appreciate a phone call which apologizes for asking me to refrain from raising the important issue that I raised, I do not expect one. I did not attack Derek personally. I did say that a practice that he uses should be changed. I did not get into name calling. My approach was intellectually honest, and a number of professionals openly and without being asked, agreed with me. I believe that my point was so obvious that it did not need to be made. I am disappointed in the quality of the response that I got. When I asked questions, I was given no reasons, just "please let it go." After 30 years at NASA, I guess I got used to a more intellectual approach to conversation. I really want to know what the Knots Police DO NOT WANT happening on Knots, and I would like to see it clearly stated. Sorry about the length of my message. The issue of what the Knots Police should do is not a simple one. YOu are a member of the Knots Police. Please raise this issue with them for me. I am sure that there is not another member of Knots who is more openly and aggressively trying to get more people to join Knots and to subscribe to FWW. I don't do it because I get a monetary reward. I don't. I do it because it is a GREAT way to learn and to solve woodworking problems. Let's work together to make it even better.Here is a suggestion for you. Ask to have me put on the Knots Police.Have fun. I hope that I have caused you to think more deeply about the issue of the role of the Knots Police. I think you see that I do not have a mean bone in my body, and that I have the "greater good" in mind. Thanks for listening.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, none of us volunteers who have icons by our names are Police. Sysop people have icons and power, but I am simply a Knots member who has been around long enough to be enlisted to help out when people get lost or who's question got missed, that kind of thing. Said helpful role does not restrict me to being gushygood all the time, or prevent me from aking challenging questions. Please note, I have not reprimanded anyone.
I'm sorry I'm not addessing all the myriad points you probably made in the above post, but I'm severely short of time, on my way to work and then a family trip. Please re-evaluate your concerns with the clarification in mind that I am not a policeperson. I've gotta run out the door.
Quick Edit: I scanned your message again, and see references to issues I know nothing about, and are quite likely handled by the true Sysop/moderator people. Any other day, I might be able to help clarify things or be a go-between, but I can't today (going out of town, and today is Saturday).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/2/2009 11:05 am by forestgirl
FG,
I hesitate to offer this advice but I see you are being pestered by that Mel with what are surely troll-like and totally unjustified pokes and jeers of the spiteful kind concering your motives and conduct. I don't know what he is spluttering at you as I have pressed the ignore button on him, some time ago now, after all that anti-Derek poison he emitted.
This is the advice I offer - press that button. I find myself much calmer in a Mel-free Knots; he brought the worst out in me, perhaps deliberately as this is the troll mode.
Lataxe, once a Mel fan, before he soured-up and went to live under a bridge.
Edited 5/2/2009 12:46 pm ET by Lataxe
Amen to that, though I wonder if part of the oath of office is that you're not permitted to ignore the Grendels. BTW the best trolls live under waterfalls. Some interesting characters of independent bent live under bridges round here. Their conversation tends to be repetitious rather than spiteful : "Can you spare......."
Cheers, Jim
Jim,
The best panhandler I ever came across used to infest Newcastle Central railway station, when I were a lad some 1527 years ago. He was a somewhat dilapidated Scots fellow with bent legs, alarming "clothes" (which moved independently of their inhabitant) and a completely dishevelled mush replete with burst nose-veins, purple lips and a nose in the wrong position by some 15 degrees. I believe he had hair although it resembled bladderwrack.
No matter where you thought he was waiting to pounce, he always came from another place behind you, grasping your sleeve with a crablike pince.
"Hai ye goat a tanner fer ai cuppa tea!?", he would cackle, gawping up into your face from under your chin. (He was quite small or perhaps just bent). "Ah lost ma peeper itha waar". And with his other claw he would push out his glass eye and roll it around in his palm, whilst pushing the ugly and gaping socket just vacated up further into your face.
For some reason I always gave him the tanner (sixpence). Only then would the claw release one's sleeve to hold open the yawning eye-hole into which "the peeper" was once more thrust home.
Lataxe, admirer of a good beggar.
This is the advice I offer - press that button. I find myself much calmer in a Mel-free Knots; he brought the worst out in me, perhaps deliberately as this is the troll mode.
Best advice I've heard in years! I just did it myself - and coincidentaly - 1/3 of the posts here at knots just disappeared! Much less clutter now.
Take care friend,
Lee
I've considered what a Mel-free knots would look like, too, but it would be like Wal-Mart without the door greeter. Who else will look at a thread and be thunderstruck by the impulse to take it to 5000 posts? And you would miss out on hearing about things that are REVOLUTIONARY! (Using hollows and rounds).But when the Mel ship starts to sail toward the Isles of the Hallmark Greeting card sentimentality, that's when I jump overboard. Would honestly rather take my chances with the sharks than hear another word of THAT.Ah well, back to this planer issue. My own planer is broken at the moment so it's all looking good to me. OP: I'll offer you some free storage space!"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Had to laugh at the "jump overboard" statement. I usually jump overboard when I find out Mel has boarded the same boat as me.
Lee
I have been tempted to push the ignore button several times (as if I could figure out how to do that) as there are several posters that can get rather testy at times. I haven't done that yet as I find that those same people sometimes offer invaluable advice at times. Yes, I have been yelled at too. I try, and it is most difficult to push the ignore button in my head instead and then keep marching on. Most difficult, but in my opinion, it seems to work best.
Tink, activating the Ignore Button doesn't lock you into never seeing that member's posts. There is an option to view an "ignored member's" post with any post you run across (you see the name of that person, but no text).
It's been ages since I had anyone on ignore, but back in the day, I could usually tell if his response might be relevant, as opposed to just a nasty, self-serving snipe at someone. So, I'd click on "View Message" (or whatever the option is called). You can also un-ignore someone if it seems they've been to rehab and are no longer disruptiing things or otherwise p'sng you off.
It's not near as weighty a decision as ignoring someone in real life, ROFL!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Now that you mention it, I recall accidentally putting someone on ignore some time ago and got the option to read it anyway. Took me a long time to figure out how to unignore him. Thanks for the post. I don't know why we get so uptight. I'm as guilty as anyone so no accusations here.
FG has already given the answer I would have given you on the marks. My personal experiences is that any planer.. jointer.. (regardless of type head or knives which include carbide tipped and HSS).. band-saw blade.. TS blade are going to leave marks that have to be sanded to clean up. The question is.. how much sanding is required to clean them up?
I personally find that sharp HSS knives leave less marks but... that helical cutters do shine with species as maple, etc. that can have grain running in both directions in one board. There is less likely a chance of tear-out even though it could. Grain direction is very important along with having sharp cutters to severe. Running stock through with the grain is going to give much smoother cuts than against the grain. So.. I find it important to read it correctly before the cut.
But.. with maple and curly maple especially.. you often cannot establish which way the grain runs. I just used around 30 board feet of soft maple to do two large drawers in a desk. What I do is give the read my best shot but instead of set up for a 1/16" cut on a jointer.. I set up for 1/32" after leaving the stock proud off a rip cut. The first pass will reveal the true direction of the grain by looking at the quality of cut. If you screwed up guessing.. you turn it around and take it to exact with shallow passes and the reason for leaving it proud.
So... as long as those lines you refer to can be cleaned easily with hand sanding or ROS (and I mean easily)... you have to sand to get finish quality anyway IMO and that makes them just part of the process of reaching the finish line. In other words if it ain't broke.. don't attempt to fix it. :>)
As far as ignore.... I am somewhat old fashioned as I don't have a cell phone and don't need one. So... I can ignore without the assistance of a computer button to guide me. If I have personal problem with someone I deal with it direct.. if that person is what I consider beyond reason then I simply ignore but don't bother with any buttons.. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Nahhhh, Lataxe, I don't think it's appropriate for me to activate the Ignore Button, now that I have a tiny gavel by my name. Jimurock is partially correct: I don't do it, because I'm sort-of, kinda-like a staff member. It's not part of my formal oath, but it wouldn't seem right to do. I'll just oil my feathers and continue paddling around the pond.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Girl,
"I'll just oil my feathers and continue paddling around the pond".
Quite right, as you are a resposnsible adult, unlike wot I am. :-)
Also, you are much nicer than moi; I leap up to take bites a bit quick sometimes and even a passer-by gets a stray tooth, which is not fair. You are made of sugar and spice of course, wheres I am definitely made of those other yucky thangs.
Still, as you pointed out in that other post o' yourn, one may always take a peek at the posts of one's tormentor, should it seem likely that a snippet of something useful may lie there. Somehow I have come to believe that Mel has run out of such snippets lately, for reasons that are unkown.
Perhaps you could go over there and apply your rehabilitation tekneeks? I suspect the lad just wants to be famous and instead is becoming infamous through trying too hard to get attention. He needs a cuddle (you first) and maybe a badge of his very own.
Lataxe
Hah, hah, hah! My husband may disagree with the premisse of your post ("sugar and spice" etc.). Too funny.
I see this thread has returned to some level of normalcy, and Steve is posting phenomenally useful pictures (how does he do that?!). There must have been a realignment of the stars and moon......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's some cuts on spalted hickory.. cherry (the other side of the piece that the OP sent in).. hard maple.. soft maple and QSWO from left to right in the first picture. Bear in mind my knives have around 3000 linear feet on them with 2000 being pecan (hickory) and over 1000 oak. I do have some nicks on the edge and will be changing out in a few days when my other set gets back from the sharpener.
Note.. the hard maple (3rd from left) has light rays as those are not planer marks... move in another directional and light rays shift as common in hard and curly maple.
And the big surprise is the piece of cherry the OP submitted.. even though I have a few nicks in those blades... my HSS did leave a diagonal line in the cherry as his picture. No where as deep and you can't see them probably but ... they are there I assure you. I have never seen my HSS leave a line like that. I re-ran the piece skewed and the line still was there.. same line, just skewed at an angle?
I have never seen this with a HSS knife on cherry. I will pick up another piece of cherry soon and run it but again.. I have never seen cherry do that before and "have never seen" covers a lot of turf. This is indeed a magical board of some nature and I highly suspect voodoo as I have no clue what else could cause it. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Back to the shop as work to do...
Sarge..
Edited 5/4/2009 5:17 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Mel,
Hey what's going on here!?
I didn't get no badge when I enlisted, gotta find out about that. I always wanted to be a Kop dude. Got bored with all those windup thangs when i was a joung un, especially when I found out some were wound tighter than the other ones.
A friend of mine loaned me his tractor to try out. Man, they are a blast. I nivver ran one before and I gotta tell ye, the bucket sure don't cut like my planer does.
Which reminds me; when I looked at the pic from the OP, the lines that ran diagonally across the wood looked really odd to me. Did you happen to see that pic? I don't understand how a planer head could have cut those lines. Do you have a possible explanation? Almost looked like the piece was mebbe kicked back or sumthin. Either that or it spit it out the hind end of the planer! Perhaps the feed rate was set to HURL?
Ahhhh well, it's Sunday and there's prolly nobody home but,
GEide, where is my badge!? If I'm gonna be a Knots Kop kin I be a member of the Interrogation Squad?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
A badge eh? :)
Gina,
Badges? They don't need no steenking badges!
-Steve
From what I see in the OPs photo, the piece was inserted at a bit of an angle. I do that from time to time so that the slicing is not directly in line with the grain and to have a more even wear on the cutters.The only time I have seen this sort of thing (the lines) here is when one of the cutters in the Byrd head on the jointer got nicked by a piece of embedded staple in a piece of wood. Easily fixed by rotating the one cutter 90*.FWIW, this looks to me like a misaligned cutter assembly. Or seven or more not properly seated cutters. In any event, I have never had a piece of wood come out looking like that, straight knives or Byrd head.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Bob,
I just wrote you a long personal note responding to your message. I made a number of suggestions, and asked you a number of questions about how you think the policing of Knots should go. I really want to hear back from you on that. I appreciate your writing to me. You have always been a peace loving person here on Knots and you set a good example. However, I could, but won't, list a number of Knotheads who get pretty rambunctious here, but who are FANTASTIC woodworkers, and their discussions are filled with information that I find to be very useful. I wish they would pull some of their punches, but that is not going to happen. They do no one any harm, IMHO. I would like to see a good description of what behaviours will be punished on Knots, and I would like to see some discussion on what the biggest behaviour problems are, and what to do about them. For example, why not limit each person to one name on Knots. Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
For example, why not limit each person to one name on Knots."
There really isn't any reliable way to enforce that. All you need in order to set up an account is an email address, and you can get as many as you want of those for free.
-Steve
Mel,
how you think the policing of Knots should go
I think Anatole said it best, (Hope I don't over simplify it), If it aint broke don't fix it.
I'll read your email later tonight or first thing in the AM. Right now I feel like a tuckered Eddie Albert; been larnin how to drive tractor.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Mel,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Sorry to hear about your frustration with “Knots Police” and thank you for the feedback about the major issues that you feel we have in Knots.
<!----> <!---->
I just wanted to clarify that me and my fellow Taunton Press staffers are the only real “Knots Police” around.
<!----> <!---->
We did recruit a small cadre of community experts/liaisons to help answering people’s woodworking questions and act as simple good citizens of Knots.
<!----> <!---->
Taunton Press staffers are the only ones who close or delete discussions or remove anyone from the forum. And, as most people would agree, we use a very light moderating hand in Knots.
<!----> <!---->
Anyway, just wanted to quickly weigh in on that… I’d suggest that we turn the discussion back to woodworking.
<!----> <!---->
Gina
<!----> <!---->
Gina Eide
FineWoodworking.com
Gina,
Thank you for your very nice response. I have dealt with you on a few occassions and you are always a gentleperson. I appreciate and admire that. Keep up your lighthandedness.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello Mel:At this point, I am reminded of Dostoyevski's novel 'The Idiot". Here's a brief synopsis:"By making Myshkin a paragon of kindness and humility, Dostoyevsky shows what can happen when such a man is confronted by society. Myshkin frequently confronts society's norms with his "idiocy", which is merely his apparently naive approach to life. However, it is merely a search for truth in human relationships. He is not naive about what others say to him and about him; he merely assumes they're true because human beings should have no need for falsehood. The prince frequently faces various social turmoils, petty arguments, and ridiculous assumptions throughout the novel. Unfortunately, the "idiot" cannot save himself from society and fails in the end."Inside every cynic lies a passionate person that does not want to be disappointed again. Just add a few pico-litres of cynicism each day and you'll be well on the road to recovery!Regards,Hastings
Hastings,
THERE IS A INTELLECTUAL HERE ON KNOTS.
You are he.
Nice review of The Idiot. Nice analogy.
You are quite insightful. I am blown over by your ability to see deep into the souls of humans.
I would like to apprentice to you.
When is your next opening? :-)
Mel
PS - of all of the messages that I have read on Knots. The one from you was one of the best. This is a place where most discussions are done by sound-bytes -- lines that are too short to get at anything serious. You dug down deep. As you know, I keep a list on the wall of "Experts on Knots". Now I have added another list - Intellectuals on Knots. Your name is on it.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ladies and Gentlemen and Misfits, too:
Knots belongs to you folks. Sometimes it falls into the Tragedy of the Commons, but most of the time it's a great place to get good advice and hang out with friends. It's really up to you all to keep it civil.
The time that FWW staff can devote to policing this place is but a few minutes a day. We have to concentrate on producing high quality woodworking content. We are not going to navel gaze and hold meeting after meeting to review what kinds of behaviors are proper or not. You all know what it is. If someone is out of line, tell them so.
That approach often settles things down. And if it doesn't, we'll just eject a repeat offender. Like I said, we don't have the staff or time to hold a jury trial or review someone's release from purgatory.
--Anatole BurkinDigital Content Director
That sounds very much like the democratic approach that has made my marriage work for over 30 years. I have one vote, my bride has 42. My wife handles the day-to-day minor decisions (we need a new dryer, I hate this old carpet. . .let's pull it and lay down a hardwood floor, I think we should remodel the upstairs bathroom) and I deal with the important stuff such as what the Bank of Canada should do with the bank rate, are we getting good value from the Canadian Space Agency and frequently explaining the difference between peacekeeping and peacemaking to all those Canadians who don't seem to know the difference.Regards,Ron
Edited 5/3/2009 5:13 pm ET by RonInOttawa
Congratulations Mel, you have ruined another perfectly good thread.
Lee
I called Highland yesterday and they wouldn't let me test on the floor model as the showroom is not set up for dust control. A call to the local Woodcraft was in vain as they did not have one on hand and they also said that the show area was not conducive to running the machines using actual wood as no dust collection there also.
So... I will continue to look for one to test on in my spare time as I am in the middle of a hutch for a computer desk. I have priorities and the hutch comes first as I am trying to beat the hot weather with finish which is just around the corner.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge:"He took the initial call from the OP which contained a bit of fire and brim-stone."I am sure that the above quote is a very euphemistic version of the actual exchange!I have found that when dealing with similar situations it pays to first assume good intentions on the part of the vendor, until they prove otherwise. Second, be factual and polite. Third, don't make the call while in a state of ire - it never helps!Such an approach takes the defensiveness out and puts the problem-solving hat on.Hope all is well with you!
I prefer the straight knives and there's a reason but.. you have posted this on two forums I am aware of and you didn't post a picture on either. It would be very helpful if you did so. I don't personally like the cut given by the newer style heads but... I have no idea how to compare your problem to what I have seen of other cuts I have seen made by them.
Sarge..
peter was it difficult putting that cutterhead in. I think that is what im going to do.
thanks
Make sure you get the detailed instructions from Byrd. For some reason it was not coming up clearly on their web site so they sent me a PDF. I attached it for you.Follow the instructions and it will work out. EXCEPT for one thing. Getting the bearings off the original shaft once the whole thing is out of the machine. You will definitely need a bearing puller. Don't even try tapping it out with a dead blow hammer as they mention in step 23.Putting it all back together took about 15 minutes.Hope this helps.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with with the fine folks at SC. I own three SC machines and have found them to perform as advertised, very happy. It was suggested in one of the post, that maybe this particular product is not one that was well thoughtout. My guess is that Sarge called SC and inquired about your planer and your disappointment.
Regards,
Jay
"Quality is not only right, it is free. And it is not only free,
it is the most profitable product line we have" (HAROLD S. GENEEN)
My guess is that Sarge called SC and inquired about your planer and your disappointment.
Given the silence from Sarge I would say one of two things is happening:
He is waiting for a response
He is scratching his head like the rest of us thinking "WTF? 26 HSS inserts?"
Ha Ha Ha
Hopefully the OP can get a refund or exchange. And hopefully Sarge can convey to the guys at SC that this was not such a great idea.
Lee
I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut hole that Sarge gets it resolved satisfactorily!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
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