Steel City 18″ BS.. will it float?
After months of through comparison to others at IWF and locally, she rode home in the back of the pick-up. The old 59 yr. old got her down to the ground and with the help of a 2 1/2 ton floor jack and oak levers, off the pallet to her new home. When the cardboard container came off, not a scratch. I wish I could have seen a “Made in U.S.A” tag, but I had to settle for “Made in Taiwan”. The good news is she was designed by the “ole boys” up in Murfreesboro, Tn. and no “made in China” labels attached. The world changes and I have to accept that.
Cleaned the 20″ x 20″ table with mineral spirits and a fine scotch-brite outside in about 5 minutes. Let her dry and applied Buthcers wax. The bearing and other components were a snap with a damp mineral spirits rag. The assembly manual is the simplest and most clear I have ever seen over 34 years of gathering tools. Not much to do as most is already assembled with the exception of attaching the top (3 minutes) and attaching the rails (30 minutes). The fence was off about 1/16″ in the rear when aligning with the mitre slot. Two simple bolts and dead-on in about 40 seconds. All parts accounted for and they fit precisely as advertised.
Checked the wheels and co-planular. The mounted motor and pulleys aligned straight out of the box and no adjustment necessary. The table was checked with a 24″ Veritas steel straight edge and had no more than a .002 variance at any point. I expected to have the make the fine tune (as the machine is equipped to do) on the guide bar to avoid having to re-set the guide each time you make a blade height adjustment. Not so as guides stayed in position for me on numerous height adjustments. I was sort of shocked in this price range of machine! The dust extraction on the single dual port was far greater than I expected. I have always tinkered and fine tuned machines in the past to bring them up to snuff. Appears the “guys” at Steel City have put me out of a job on this one as they have already done the home-work. Maybe a second wheel brush just so I can say I improved it? :>)
I took off the 5/8″ stock blade and re-placed with a $40 Highland Woodworking 3/4″ “Wood-slicer” which turned out to be a match made in heaven for not only random 8″ to 11″ re-saw, but thick ripping on 16/4 white oak and pecan (hickory family).
Over 200 linear feet latter and the machine never raised it’s voice above a whisper. Silence is golden IMO with a band-saw. No squeals heard from the demanding oak and pecan with the new Wood-slicer 3 TPI variable blade. No black locust on hand so the jury is out in the super heavy weight division. But at this point, I’m confident to do battle in that arena.
I was impressed with the beefy double springs and frame re-enforcement in comparisons I had already made. I was not dis-appointed in actual use. She’s everything in action I discovered on the show-room floor. The only two things I would change is to saw off the bottom 1 1/2″ of the blade guide (it’s useless on all BS’s I’ve seen including the Euro’s and obstructs the view of the exact position the blade gullets ride on the bearings). I sawed it off before I ever fired the machine. The other change is the front lock-down on the lower thrust bearing is a M5 set screw. It works fine and it accessible from the front (some BS’s ain’t), but I prefer a knurl nut. So I ordered one from Reid Tool for $2.79. The guys at Steel City said they would’nt refund the $2.79.. but would buy me lunch. Fair enough. ha.. ha…
IMO if you absolutely need over 12″ re-saw (you turners with large blanks), you would be wise to spring for the larger Euro saws with 16″ and up re-saw capacity. But.. if you fall in the range as I do of heavy, thick ripping and no real need for veneer over 12″, this saw is a very serious contender as I have compared it to the majority of others in this price range openly but with a closed wallet till that comparison I could make.
I got the saw for a negotiated $1179 as I had to wait for two weeks for Redmond & Son to re-stock as they had sold all they had. I get $100 back on Rebate that started Nov. 1st., so I actually spent $1079 for the “new boy” on the block. Did I get my money’s worth as I always go to lengths to do? At this point, I feel I may have gotten more than my money’s worth! Time will be the judge…
As I was leaving the shop last night after 200″ of saw-dust had made it to the DC, I swore I heard a little voice coming from just under-neath the large Steel City name-plate and logo boldly displayed on the upper door. Sounded like it said..
“Git er done”……
SARGE..
Replies
Great review thanks for sharing. If I did not already have my Grizz 17", I would give it a consideration. At the price you quoted, that seems like a value. I think my Griz was about 850, after delivery. Enjoy the new toy.
When the cardboard container came off, not a scratch. I wish I could have seen a "Made in U.S.A" tag, but I had to settle for "Made in Taiwan". The good news is she was designed by the "ole boys" up in Murfreesboro, Tn. and no "made in China" labels attached.
Coincidentally enough, my wife had an Asian art teacher when she was at the Memphis College of Art who used to say "design mean nothing if execution poor."
She pulls that line on me from time to time when I come in from the shop cussing and fuming. I have more than one beautiful drawing that I am unable to execute to a standard that suits me. Hope that isn't the case with your saw.
Edited 11/9/2006 2:15 pm ET by CStanford
Sarge,
Steel City has posted it's list prices. It looks like after an introductory special, their 18" saw will go for $1600.00. It sounds like a greet deal at a grand. Do you think you would go for it at 16 hundred? Just curious.
Matt
I don't think that it would be necessary, Matt. I have spoken to Scott Box several times over the last month before I made the purchase and from everything I gathered, the current price will stick for awhile. That would put their 20" over $2 K and even though it has a larger motor and springs than the 18" (and the 18" is very beefy), it would enter the arena with Mini Max and Laguna.
I personally think that like a set of golf clubs.. you will see a retail price listed and a lower price advertised (ala Amazon and about everyone in retail). What sounds better, a price sticker of $5.00 or one of $4.99. Marketing IMO.
If it were to go to $1600, I would make the call at that time based on what everybody else's price is. I believe this to be the best made Pacific Rim 18" and 20" saw on the market. Note.. I have not seen the Bridgewood 17" and cannot make a comparison.
Regards...
SARGE..
Sounds like you got a great deal! How easy is it to change blades? That is one of the complaints I've heard about most 18" bandsaws except for the Laguna and Rikon. Along those lines, the Rikon 18" is now on sale at woodcraft for $1000.00. Which do think is better, the 18" Rikon or 18" Steel City? I can't tell a lot of difference between the two except for slight differences in table size, weight (the SC is about 70 lbs. heavier) and max blade speed (The Rikon is a bit faster).
- Lyptus
Lyptus..
Release the tension. Remove the blade and table slot insert. Adorn gloves and grasp the blade with a 10 o'clock -three o'clock hold.. rotate your body to align the blade with the table slot that runs from front to rear and slide it off. Reverse the procedure to put a new blade on. Nothing complicated and took about two minutes as I had the Woodslicer out of it's package.
Took off a 5/8" stock and added a 3/4".. so naturally the guides have to be adjusted to compliment the gullets and thinner kerf of the Woodslicer. With the eccentric bearing and there accessibility, that took me about 3 minutes on the first adjustment. I would guess that I could adjust all 6 bearings in under 2 minutes at this point.
"Which do you think is better, the Steel City 18" or the Rikon 18"?.... "difference of 70 lbs. favoring the Steel City".
You partially answered your own question. And don't get me wrong, I like the Rikon. I could have taken the IWF show model home at around $850 the last day of the show. I could have drove to Highland Woodworking or Woodcraft and picked one up here in Atlanta at retail at any point since then.
I"m not going to get into a Festool vs E Z guide, or a mud-slinging.. "my saw is better than your saw" contest here! It's not necessary. I had to leave that behavior on the play-ground years ago in order to become a responsible adult an example for my children. ha.. ha...
You as an individual compare them side by side as I did and reported here in a thread after the IWF show several months ago. Compare feature to feature. Don't over-look one detail as you can't hide details in glossy pictures when looking eye-to-eye. Pay special attention to springs.. frames.. and the way critical stress areas are re-enforced. Look at minor details.. details.. details.........
The different saws have to be capable of standing alone and fighting their own battles to make it into the future. When the smoke clears... then you have your personal choice based on what you saw.
I've made my choice already based on detail .... :>)
SARGE..
Wow! Sarge waxes (darned near) poetic! Congrats, friend, on your new saw. I hope you keep us posted on its performance over the next year or so. Our Reporter in the Field, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the thoughts, FG. And I will keep you posted to any problems I may experience. But... I have a feelin' that the saw will far out-last me with fewer burps and belches over-all.. :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
<"When the smoke clears... then you have your personal choice based on what you saw.
I've made my choice already based on detail .... :>)">Sarge,What features of the SC led you to favor it over the Rikon? What did you find the SC to be better at- or which features were important to you that led to your decision?I'm looking at BS and am curious...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
As Sarge pointed out, it's in the details. Steel City has a 5 year warranty, Rikon - 2 years. Confidence in your design and excution means fewer call backs and a longer warranty period. For old timers, all major brands had lifetime warranties till the late 70's.
Another important point - Rikon has dealers like Woodcraft who are not set up to service the machines or maintain spare parts. Steel City has gone - at least in my area - with old line industrial machinery distributors who have always done some service work. The few warranty issues I had with my early Delta and Porter-Cable (both Rockwell branded at the time) machines were handled by my supplier promptly.
Details, but important ones.
Evening Glaucon..
I see ETG has clued you to two details already and important ones. As he stated, most of the dealers were chosen as they are not only retailers but service oriented centers. Redmond & Son here in Atlanta is a supplier and servicer of General, Aggazani, Shop Fox, Delta, Jet and a whole host of industrial machines I won't mention as seen in production shops and assembly lines. Now they handle the Steel City.. Why were they awarded the franchise out of all the retailers here in Atlanta that are available?
Lyptus mentioned the SC weighed around 70 pounds more than the Rikon. Look at the weights of the other competitors in that middle-weight class. I think you will find that it out-weighs them also. What does that mean?
The importance is not that it just weighs more than the others, but where that weigh is distributed, IMO. If it just had an anchor hidden in the base, then the weight itself would be in-significant. But I assure you it doesn't.
I did a very long thread several months ago giving details of the BS. You might want to go back and dig that up as I did some heavy digging to present it. But.. I will make a short summary and encourage everyone in the market to go to their web-site and locate the nearest dealer to them. Then go see the saw and make your own comparison to the others. The saw doesn't need F. Lee Bailey to defend it! :>)
A summary of finer details is the rigidity of the frame.The re-enforced over-head base of the top case carrying the top wheel that is stressed when high tensioning carbide blades. The re-enforced spring mounts that house a double set of tension springs that are also under great tension if a blade is properly tensioned. Allowances for precise adjustment of the guide bar so that an adjustment of guides is not an issue after changing guide bar height. The size of the motor housing base and it's bearing with 4 bolt adjustment for precision adjustment of the lower pulley. A 20 X 20 heavy cast iron table. And two cast iron cradles (one on each side) supporting that table. A decent fence.
And throw in a single multi-port dust collection duct that somehow manages to get the majority. I have never seen any BS (including the big sleek Euros') that I would not personally cut a hole in the bottom case and add another port with a Y connector. I had already bought the Y, but at this point I don't need it and I am still puzzled over that one. Maybe latter as I get into heavy veneer re-saw, but at the point it would be counter productive.
Again the saw speaks volumes for itself without my opinions. I just encourage everyone to see it and make comparisons to others for themselves. If I had the opportunity to pick up the other saw at the $850 floor model price I mentioned tomorrow or pay full retail $1279 for the SC, the SC would get the ride again in my pick-up. I realize that I would save over $400 today.. but I had rather pay more for something I analyze as being closer to a heavy-weight contender with a well schooled "cut man and ring crew" backing it which I translate as longer ring life for tomorrows expectations!
So... look at details.. details.. all the details..... then you decide!! Or have I already said that? ha.. ha...
Good luck and happy purchasing...
SARGE..
Edited 11/10/2006 11:05 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I did read your original thread and subsequent postings, and was impressed with your objectivity, thoroughness and precision. The question I have is the overall significance.What I mean is, what will the aspects of the SC that caused you to buy it mean in terms of how you use the saw? If SC is heavier, is that in a place that makes you think it will wear better or last longer? What do you intend to use the BS for that the SC is better suited for? Resawing? Something else? Will the guide design on the SC be easier to set up for what you plan to do, or is it just a design that appeals to you? How about blade changing? If you need to realign the saw in the future, does the SC have features that you believe will make it easier to do?SC is fairly new, so experience with their products is limited. Rikon has gotten some nice reviews for their BS, but some have noted that the saws have arrived "unfinished", although the company has made good on the problems.My questions are mostly personal- things that I wonder about when I think about buying a BS... sometimes in reviews we hear of things that give a company bragging rights (how many cup holders does this car have...) rather than things that matter to the end user. Given the philosophy of SC (at least as it has been publically stated), I am wondering if they have put their efforts into things that matter to the WW, rather than the marketers. Since you have some experience with them, I was wondering what your take is...Thanks,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon...
I'm not sure that I can cover much that I have not already covered with this thread and the previous one. But I will try to go deeper in my thoughts as to why I chose this one if it is not already obvious.
My biggest from a bandsaw is ripping and re-saw, so the bigger blades stay on it. It has adjustments for using down to 1/4", but I have a Jet 12" that I'm keeping to dedicate to the smaller blades and curves on thinner stock. The Jet has cool blocks which I feel are the best choice for running the more heat sensitive carbon magnesium blades. So.. you can do that with this saw and the Rikon without the luxury of having a dedicated smaller saw. If you purchase a Mini or one of the other Italian stallions, you have to a separate set of smaller guides or use other alternatives, etc. on them to accept the smaller blades.
All that being said... all bandsaws will cut curves if properly fitted. So throw that out of my choice. Back to rip and re-saw. I buy stock mostly in the rough for the price. So ripping and re-saw are a steady part of my diet. I am a firm believer in Bird and Duginski's theory of ripping and re-sawing on a band-saw.The configuration and sharpness of blade, sufficient HP and a saw capable of achieving required tension to reach beam strength is the key to accurate and proficient results and holding up down the road under that stress.
With that said, I use a 1/2" and 3/4" blade respectively. I have already stated that a blade change takes about 2 minutes and a re-set of guides can be done under 2 minutes so changing blades on the saw and re-setting guides are no major task.
But where I see the major differences in this saw is in the structural design. I've given details of the back-beam on the frame.. the re-enforced over-head arm.. the re-enforced spring mounts.. the double set of tension springs (that appear on the SC 16" 18" 20").. Now I have sufficient power, beam strength and I chose the proper blade. Those factors weren't just stumbled across by someone that didn't know where the beef should be, IMO.
Throw in extra design details that wouldn't enter most purchasers mind when shopping. A guide bar adjustment that makes it a snap to get precise positioning.. same with pulley and motor.. eccentric roller bearings that are a snap and tool free for quick adjustment.. more beef in the casing to add weight (ala Mini-Laguna-Aggazanie, etc.) that relates to less vibration.. a well sealed lower compartment that aids in dust collection.. a fence (with a removable point as that is a plus to me personally) that actually works without having to get the expensive up-graded one from whom-ever. A way to attach a taller face on board would be a plus.
And for dessert:.... the saw came off the pallet almost assembled and very few adjustments that weren't done at the factory. No parts missing and no burrs on bolts to touch up and no fighting components to make them fit. A well thought out and well written owners manual that was not just thrown together by someone in a graphics department that had never dealt with the most finicky tool in the shop.. the BS.
And for an encore:... a 5 Year Warranty backed by guys that were management with cushy jobs at Delta and Jet. Guys that told their superiors that there were design changes that could be made to improve the quality of the existing product for the consumer. Guys that grew weary of complacency and decided to gamble and do things their way with the consumer in mind and still turn a profit. Call the other companies and see if by chance you get the owner, designer and technician rolled into one on the phone. See if the tech you do get can tell you exactly why every minor detail was done the way it was and exactly why?
And not without a problem.. I found one today! I was going to re-saw an 11" wide piece of white oak. I threw my machinist square on the table to check for 90 degrees up the entire blade. At about 10 1/2" I found a gap .003. A search found that the right (facing the back-beam) cradle moved the table off kilter .003 at that height when tightened. If you only tightened the left trunnion cradle, the blade was square as I did when I originally checked it.
A very minute problem. Will I call SC to complain? Nah.. I was begginnig to think I was not needed to maintain the machine in top form. I removed a .0350 blade from an old feeler gauge and shimmed it between the cradle and trunnion on that side. Problem resolved and dead-on square from table to the bottom of guides 12" up there in roller bearing heaven.
So..why did I really chose the Steel City BS? I suppose it was the light grey color scheme that did it for me. I like light grey trimmed in black and red. A cup holder mounted on the side as you mentioned would be nice, but I suppose they just didn't think of that! ha.. ha...
Good luck in finding the machine that appeals most to you. I really think the R is a very good machine. But IMO, the difference between very good and excellent is attention to details.. I suppose I'm not happy till I know that I got that last .003 squeezed dryer than a turnip if possible.
Regards...
SARGE..
Thanks Sarge... what you say makes sense. Also, your philosophy re: BS use (ripping and resawing) is pretty close to mine. Sounds like a well thought out saw- I'll take a look at it and let you know what I decide. Appreciate your taking the time,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Your're welcome Glaucon... I highly encourage everyone in the market to not only take a look but make valid comparisons feature for feature so they can make a wise decision of who's still standing when the saw-dust settles.
Good luck and if you have a question, give SC a call. You might just get someone that knows the saw and other SC machines inside-out after they connect you much better than I. You might even get a reply from the receptionist as I did on my first call, "Scott will be with you in just a moment, he's back in the warehouse sweeping but on his way.".... That statement alone spoke volumes to me about the kind of hands-on people I am dealing with. My blue-collar mentality just seems to not be on the same wave length with corporate co-reagraphed answers. And that's a fact! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards for the day...
SARGE..
Sarge, Boy am I disappointed in you. I thought you were going to get an MM16 so we could commiserate on the details of the thing. Ha Ha. I am completely new on the BS. I took possession of the MM about two months ago, it took a month to get the thing hooked up and then it didn't work. I still have not gotten it to work but did check it out a little tonight. I think it might be a micro switch but don't have a wiring diagram to save from checking out every detail. I'll give Sam a call when I get time. By the way, you had a health problem of question at the time. How have you made out? I just finished some prostate cancer therapy a week ago. That can be expected at my age (73).
Morning Tink...
First.. open your MM's lower case door. Look and see if your guides are mounted low and there are holes closer to the table that they can be raised and re-positioned too? If not.. you have the older version of the MM 16 that did have a problem with micro-switch before they corrected it with design change.
And of course.. have an electrician (if you are not familiar check to see if you have the 220V wired correctly from the box to the outlet with proper plug to match receptacle. Details are important and especially in wiring electricity!
I had a deposit on the MM16 at show price. Stress test and ultra-sound found a blockage behind the heart and down in my left leg. They injected dye ready to "stent" the artery behind my heart several weeks ago. Ultra sound was wrong and all clear..
I do have a blockage in the Iliac artery that branches off to my left leg. Going in again on Nov. 28th when they will "stent" it by going through an artery in the groin. Ouch... sounds nasty. ha.. ha...
The SC was somewhat of a fluke. My original intent was to just see it up close to find out if it was a Jet clone as it looks similar in pictures. Once I did see it and after through examination, I knew it meet my demands of quality and what would fill my personal needs both now and the future. If I were a production shop that ran a BS continuously, the MM with that 4.8 HP would be sitting there now if not a larger 24" to 36" Tannewitz. But I ain't and the SC is a very suitable ride for my frequent but non-continuos usage. I would give SC's 20" consideration in a small production shop. So... that's how I arrived at Steel City! :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
Sarge,"So..why did I really chose the Steel City BS? I suppose it was the light grey color scheme that did it for me. I like light grey trimmed in black and red."I knew that...as soon as I saw the pictures I said to myself that sob bought a bs that would double as a 'free refill station' in his shop/cocktail lounge after hours...lol.
You got it pegged again, BG.. you dog you! Every since I installed the "pole" on top of my work-bench to the ceiling, the infamous "Cheetah III" here in Atlanta has trouble finding dancers.
But there's always problems in trying to run a hobbyist shop and lounge. Now.. all they want to do is take turns "re-sawing" on that Steel City in lieu of table dances. I knew I should have kept the Woodworking closer to the vest.. but life is trail and error I suppose! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
If the "First Lady" reads this, she'll re-locate me from N.E. Atlanta to S.E. Atlanta with one major blow to the head. I'm already punch drunk!:>)
Regards and good to hear from ya...
SARGE..
Sarge,
When I saw you mention rough sawn lumber and noticed you are in the ATL area, I had to ask...Can you tell me where it the ATL area you are getting your rough sawn lumber? I've been purchasing my lumber from Suwanee Lumber as to date they are the best prices I can find around ATL, but they do not offer any deals for rough sawn, plus they are a long drive for me.
Thanks.
I am also interested in this question, as I am just up the road in Greenville, SC. If it's a good enough deal it would be worth the gas for a short trip.
Howdy SC...
See last post to woodguy for answer. And if you find a another source up there, let us know. There used to be sawmills up your way, but I suspect it it going the way the Atlanta area did 30 years ago. Too many folks.. too many houses and too much traffic. :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
Morning SC...
I just called Suwanee and Peach State and gave details in a post to wOOdguy. In your case, if you decide to drive down from Greenville I would call in advance to make sure they can accomodate your needs in a certain species before you come.
Suwanee Lumber.. 770-945-2102 http://www.suwaneelumber.com
Peach State Lumber.. 770-428-3622.. http://www.peachstatelumber.com
Regards...
SARGE..
Thanks.
I'm just a hobbyist interested in building some home furniture, so I'm talking about small lots of wood. Hope that's not a problem. Will keep them in mind.
Suwanee does sell the surfaced in small quantities, SC. You can pick through the racks by yourself all day long if you wish. Just tell em when you're done and they will give you and invoice on what you hand picked from 1 board to un-limited. If you're around at lunch and exhibit that hungry look, you might get a sandwich for free. Real friendly! As wOOdguy mentioned, cheapest prices in Atlanta I am aware of.
BTW.. from Greenville they are a straight shot down I-85 to the exit at Lawrenceville-Suwanee Rd. (forgot exit # about 15 miles N. or your side of the peri-meter at Spaghetti Junction. Turn right and go to US 23 or Buford Hwy.9 about 3 miles) and a take a left. Down about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile on the left. They're only open till Noon on Saturday and close at 4:30 PM during the week.
Regards...
SARGE..
forgot exit # about 15 miles N. or your side of the peri-meter at Spaghetti Junction. Turn right and go to US 23 or Buford
It's exit 111 off I-85
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
Evening woodguy..
Just cleared the shop and a tractor trailer load of leaves earlier.. yep, it's fall in Atlanta. Where I get the majority of my rough is up in Elijay from Rick G, a friend since HS that retired and has a small portable sawmill. He does it mostly for a hobby, his own use and to save usable wood that contractors were going to burn to make way for housing. The story of this entire region for the last 20 years it seems!
I also purchase from Suwanee Lumber and have been doing so for almost 30 years. There are about 12 or 13 miles up the road from me in L'ville. What you see and chose from down the stairs in the racks is surfaced. What is at the bottom of the hill in those wooden, tin shed open building is where it comes in "rough" to them. They do the surfacing down there.
They have sold to me rough on request in the past, but I have not ask in the past several years. I did pick up a truck load of rough white oak I needed in a hurry last Saturday at Peach State Lumber. He carries 6/4 in WO and Suwanee only carries the 4/4.. 5/4..8/4. Most of what he (and he has a lot of nice species and exotic prices to go with it) is also surfaced. I called in advance and ask for rough and was told to come on up to Kennesaw. He grabbed a fork-lift and brought out a whole bundle as we had to cut the bands.
I would suggest that you call Suwanee and ask if they will sell in the rough. Same with Peach State. Hey.. it's rough before it hits the front of the warehouses. You might also contact the Georgia Woodworking Guild and see if anyone can recommend a source for rough. I have a cousin that cut down quite a few pecans several years ago and took them to mill. He dried them, but has no source to surface. I surface for him and get one board foot free for every one I surface for him. I am up to my neck in pecan at the moment and may not want to ever see another board foot of it. Well.. it actually does have that nice pinkish glow. :>)
Again call Suwanee and see what their current policy on rough is. Report back here is you would as you have got my curiosity up, enough that I may call tomorrow morning myself. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Morning wOOdguy...
Just got off the phone with Molett at Suwanee Lumber and Nancy at Peach State. Both welcome you to bring tractor-trailers and "come on down" and get all you want at the "back door" as they recieve it rough and they sell it that way cause they're in business to sell lumber. Molett at Suwanee mentioned they will sell you rough with a straight edge (surfaced 1 edge) also if you prefer. Forgot to ask Nancy about that.
Regards for the day and hope that helps...
SARGE..
Edited 11/13/2006 11:31 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Thanks so much for checking !
Last time I was at Suwanee and asked about rough sawn they told me they'd be glad to sell it to me, but the price would be the same as the planed (in other words, they were offering no discount to buy it rough sawn). Maybe I asked the wrong person - it was just one of the guys downstairs in the stacked lumber area. I really like Suwanee in general - next time I'll call and see what prices they are offering.
Peach State is a lot closer to me, but their prices were so high I've never bothered to come back after one visit - a lot of their stuff was close to twice Suwanee's. I have heard they offer a discount to GA Woodworker Guild Members (which I am not a member of yet) , so maybe I can get a deal there too if I combine rough sawn and the woodworkers guild....
Evening wOOdguy..
You're certainly right about the prices over there. Whoa... Cobb Co.-Cherokee Co. pricing for the elite. The reason I did drop by was that they had the 6/4. They are about 45 miles from me but more or less were on the way as I was headed to Redmond & Son to pick up the band-saw. Probably still some motorist trying to figure out the contents of that pick-up bed. Large box on crate strapped to a pallet with a ton of rough wood strapped on both sides. I'm surprised I wasn't stopped by Homeland Security! ha.. ha...
What you were quoted about rough same price as surfaced doesn't sound kosher to me. A quick phone call would clear it and I did forget to ask if there was a minimum quantity involved. I may have to run over there Saturday, so I will ask on the next visit.
Regards...
SARGE..
"Rikon has gotten some nice reviews for their BS, but some have noted that the saws have arrived "unfinished"...." This is what makes me leary of the Rikon saw. Quality control seems to be extreeeeeemly spotty, and I'd be concerned about higher odds of something being wrong that wouldn't be known until after the warantee's expired.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
True.And I'm trying to buy a BS, not a science project.I already got me a hobby,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Just saw on their website that Steel City has a fall promo program with the 18" BS marked down from $1,598 to $1,279. Add the current $100 rebate and you're looking at $1,179 - pretty significant markdown.
Actually the $1279 has been the price since the introduction of the Steel City line at the IWF show in Atlanta. If you notice the other machines they all have higher suggested listed prices with lower "going prices". Can we say "marketing" as this is common with most retailers to do. As I mentioned in another post, which has a more soothing effect in your mind when you first glance at a price....... $5.00 or $4.99 ??.. :>)
But... I didn't want to give you an answer that is only my strong suspicion as at that point that's all is was.. a suspicion. Nothing better than getting a correct answer straight from the "horse's mouth" the way I view the world.
I just got off the phone with Scott Box (co-owner of Steel City) and for once in my life I was correct on the very first try. All prices currently offered will remain the same as they are now unless their is an un-expected rise in cost of material, shipping, etc. that dictates all competitors to raise their prices.
So.... bottom line is the $1279 is the price (along with the other machine prices) with a $100 Rebate to total $1179. Straight from the "horse's mouth"!
Still significant if you have a SC dealer near you where you can pick-up and eliminate around $200 truck freight give or take. But you would have to add back local sales tax which in my case was $77 to arrive at a true bottom line.
Regards...
SARGE..
Sarge,
One more question... I reread your original post from September (Steel City Bandsaws... Under the Cover). You mentioned that you also saw the Aggazani at Redmond & Son. Any thoughts on comparing it with the Steel City? Pluses or minuses (other than the price difference)?
Thanks,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Evening Gluacon...
My wife was checking e-mail as she runs a small business on e-bay where she sells custom crochet and told me I have a message. I"ll try to provide an answer to that question as seen through my eyes.
The Aggazani falls into the category of what I call the "Italian Stallions" which fall into more of an down-sized commercial machine geared more for high-end consumers. A commercial machine will generally start at 24" baby to 36" + standard at over 2000 lbs. All cast iron, which has gotten quite expensive. The scaled down consumers version have a rigid steel back-frame as the SC. Design between each brand will vary as to how they get the rigidity. You will find that class of machine to have larger motors, heavier wheels, very heavy tension springs (I saw in another thread that someone said tension is over-rated.. place a steel wire very tightly between two points and run a block of cheese through.. then loosen the wire and see if you get the same straight cut results.. so I respectively disagree with that statement) and very large guides to the the point that they won't handle under a 1/2" blade without some modification or changing to smaller guides. Most will have Euro guides which are fine for large blade continuous use, but not well adapted for the smaller blades at all. Tall re-saw is their forte, even though a step below continuos commercial use which rarely go under 5 HP and 3 phase.
The roller guides (I will call them Carter style for simplicity that most can identify with) are a better all around match IMO for most of us. The Aggi's will have even more weight in the case than the SC even though I didn't feel that it had a more rigid back-frame. It will have more height under the blade also as and even a heavier cast iron table. Weight relates to less vibration and more muscle (if put in the correct place to strenghen high stress components) to handle the high tension of larger blades without stressing the machine.
Some of the 18"-20" stallions are less commercially oriented than others even though basic design is based on their bigger brothers. Closest to commercial IMO is the Mini-Max made by Centuari. Aggazani is there but over-priced IMO when compared to the MM. The Bridgewood PBS series (basically the same machine as the Laguna but Laguna having ceramic guides which I don't personally care for.. others may love?) are a more consumer oriented, watered down version of blue collar "big brother" that works down at the factory and doesn't know what quitting time means!
So... to make a comparison between the Stallions and the more affordable Pacific Rims is like comparing a lion to an elephant. The elephant can haul the heavy load all day long but doesn't necessarily have the finesse of the lion as long as you don't over-tax the lions smaller bones by asking it to carry too much weight for long periods.
The SC is the only BS I have seen in it's class that would fill a void on the Stallion playing field when needed, but you must realize that it could not become an "all-star" in that league either. But.. for the difference in price, it would be an out-standing utility player on that same field. The 20" SC more so as long as you don't need to reach more than 12" as some turners that re-saw downed trees for bowls might need.
Depends on what one's need are now and what you anticapate for the future and what you can afford. I had a deposit on a MM 16, but opted out when saw the SC and faced the reality that it is all that I really need now and the future based on past track record of 34 years in my shop.
Regards... an hope that clarifies
SARGE..
Edited 11/15/2006 12:39 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 11/15/2006 12:43 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 11/15/2006 12:46 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Sarge- I tend to agree with you. The one remaining question is how well SC will manage its customer service. It's a new firm, so no track record yet. One of the issues that has led me to shy away from the Italian makes is the supply chain on parts, the issues of customer service and the quality of the manuals. I won't resurrect the Laguna thread (RIP), but many of the European comapnies have had difficulties in this area. I hope that SC is more attentive to this part of the business... I guess time will tell,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Morning Gluacon...
Just spoke to Eric in parts at steel city about fast-moving parts (tires.. bearing..etc..) and other fast-movers from their other machines (higher fatality rate from constant friction and contact from other various components) "How many do you need and they'll be out the door this afternoon"...
They have the fast-movers in stock.. They don't know what to stock on non-expectancy and low frequency replacement parts as they have had no problems to this point and nothing to base that inventory on. A few cradles, etc. that you wouldn't expect someone to break but their will always to that macho mentality that will try to put a large, heavy, long, green log through the blade without the common sense to re-enforce support under table which they have already re-enforced with a two cast iron trunnions with a cradle on each side.
It would take about a week to get that un-expected non-stocker (at this early point anyway) from the assembly line in Taiwan and then over-night to the customer...
But..... they have already thought of this as they stated they will "take care of their customers" and they fully intend to take care of their customers. You can't buy or stumble into a good reputation... you gotta earn it and they got their working britches on and stand ready in a 3 point stance! The sample machines on location in Murfreesboro become an instant "blood donor" if that scenario arose till they get a track record of those parts that shouldn't break under normal use but someone out there will find a way regardless! ha.. ha...
Regards... on my way to work :>)
SARGE..
Edited 11/15/2006 11:29 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Sarge. I stopped by Woodcraft and checked out the SC 18". I liked the quality of the iron, the trunions, table and double springs. I also liked the emphasis on useful (as opposed to marketable) features. So I ordered one... should be getting it in ~2 weeks.Thanks for all your useful info,GlauconP.S. If I do have trouble with parts, I will be down to cannibalize your BS. Where is it that you live in Georgia???Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Evening Glaucon..
I told you the saw needs no spokesman, just needs the opportunity for someone to take a look for themselves and compare to others as it speaks rather boldly for itself! ha.. ha...
I think you made a wise decision if you don't need the very tall re-saw of the "stallions" as me. BTW.. that Aggazanni 18" weights in at 350 lbs. (perhaps a pony dressed as a stallion.. :>)..) compared to your Steel City 18"at 450 lbs. Does that tell you anything? Aggazani's next step up is the 24" which weights in at 650 lbs. compared to the Steel City 20" (currently the largest they have) at 550 lbs. The BS I saw at Redmond was the 24".
A few tips... when you get it you will notice the blade guard extends down over the upper bearing not allowing you to see the bearings and where the blade is in relation to the gullets vs. the front of bearings. I sawed it off as I would a MM and most other saws that have to have that done that way to get it in country with various safety regulations from country of origin. Now... I can see the upper bearings and have not sacrificed any safety what-so-ever.
The three upper eccentrics have a thumb screw with the typical pan flare. they work fine, but I prefer a knurl head (like the ones on the Euro guides as it's easier for me to grasp). I picked up 3 stainless steel one's from Reid Tool for about $2.87 apiece. And... the rear thrust bearing on the bottom has a set set you insert a Allen wrench into. I'm replacing that with an ajustable handle.
I got the top screws today. They are M5 X .080 and I was going too put one down on that lower bearing. It isn't M5 as I suspected. The threads of the set screw are courser and the M8 is just a hair too small. Got an M6 x 1 on order. Let you know if that is the correct thread.
I live in Lawrenceville, county seat of Gwinnett Co. which is one of the 5 Metro counties that comprise Atlanta. Rural when I was growing up, but around 800,000 in the county now. Grrrrrrrrrrrr..##^&
And yourself?....
Congratulations on you purchase....
SARGE..
Edited 11/16/2006 10:32 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 11/16/2006 10:35 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Sarge- I'll let you know how I make out with delivery.An additional question: my past experience has been with a 14" Delta BS where I used a 1/2" blade with ~ 3 tpi (hooked). You favor a 3/4" blade on the SC 18". Any particular reason? I tend to use the BS mostly for ripping, cutting curves and sometimes resawing. In the past I've used Suffolk blades. I do occaisonally rip a log, so a wider blade with more space between the gullets is probably not a bad idea.Any thoughts?I live in a little town outside of Philadelphia... Brandywine country...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Evening Glaucon...
I would normally run a 1/2" bi-metal Lennox (around $40) for ripping and the 1/2" Wood-slicer from Highland Woodworking (around $33) for re-saw changing blades as required. But.... Highland recently added the Wood-slicer in 3/4". It's the same thin kerf WS with 3 TPI and variable teeth pitch (smooth cutting for a 3 tpi) as their 1/2" they designed has been for years.
I sat down with a cup of coffee and thought about it. Since I would mainly do re-saw and ripping on the 18" SC, why not just install the 3/4" at $39 + for both as it gives me more beam strength and the extra width discourages flex in thick straight cuts which both are. I use the Jet 12" with cool blocks for 3/8" down carbon steel blades for the curves so I can keep the SC 18" dedicated to the R & R arena.
So.. I think you have to analyze your personal choices by what type cutting you use it for, the thickness and density of the stock and what the machine is capable of. In our case we know that the SC can finesse the smaller blades and shoulder the larger ones. The bearing on that SC are large like the Euro guides, but have ample slots (thanks to clever thinking on SC's part) to slide back and lock down to accommodate the smaller blades without having to change to smaller guides or insert round hard-wood dowels, etc. for those narrower and more heat sensitive carbon steel blades. That gives us a very flexible range and any consequent blade changes are a snap to do along with quick bearing alignment when blades are changed.
The 3/4" as my go-to blade is just an experiment on my part so far. But after shoving over 200 linear feet of white oak re-saw down the SC's throat and about the same on ripping since last week-end.. looks like it may have been a clever move on my part based on what my priority needs are and the results I have obtained so far!
Regards for the evening...
SARGE..
Good morning Sarge. The frost is on the pumpkin today... thanks for your reply. Probably my best bet is to buy several different blades, and see which one I use the most...and then get a couple of backups.Any preference for ripping logs? How about beef...? ;^)Today is the last farmer's market here until the spring, so I'm off to say good bye to the Amish farmers until April,Best,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Morning Glaucon...
Even though sunny in Atlanta, we are about 42 degrees currently here. Give my regards to the Amish farmers who keep life simple and veggie's (which there are none I can think of off-hand that I don't eat) organic i believe. My wife is from western Pa. S. W. of the Johnstown-Altoona area. She has been in Atlanta since the mid-70's though. Her family seems to enjoy Atlanta also. Even though I put up "Yankee Go Home" signs and install temporary parking meters in my drive when they visit, they still seem to make it down around 6 times a year and especially winter. If I installed a pool (which I intentionally don't), they would probably be here more often (just kiddin' but.. they tagged me as "that southern character our daughter..sister..etc. married). ha.. ha... :>)
Several blades are probably your best agenda. And it is an excellent idea to keep back-up blades on-hand in your most used especially as I do also. I hate the reality that suddenly strikes that the blade has dulled during the middle of a project. Even though I can get them within a day here, it's a nuisance to break the rhythm flow of a project on schedule.
I prefer the Wood-slicer for re-saw... but it is not intended for wet wood that you might incur with a log. I think the best choice in that case would be a bi-metal or a carbide. The bi-metal will work at far less than the price of carbide.. but will maintain sharpness only about 1/4 as long as the carbide.
I will probably pick up a Lennox Tri carbide in 3/4" as I removed two sweet-gums with about 24" bases (along with 7 other species that are an ice storm danger to my house) in my front yard that are now air drying. I have a friend that has a portable mill up in the N. Ga. mountains that will quarter them for me to get them under the 12" max. If I had the SC 20", I would opt for the Lennox 1", but I believe in using blades that are capable but not over-taxing on the no-menclature of a given machine even though they will fit on the wheel. After seeing what the machine will do with a 2 HP in wet wood (the wet wood will gum, dull and fight any blade from the git-go) with a 3/4", I may go to the 1" at a latter date if I feel it would be a more suitable choice to increase beam strength.
Regards...
SARGE..
<"Even though I put up "Yankee Go Home" signs and install temporary parking meters in my drive ">ROFL. I don't think would discourage General Sherman too much either...What tpi would you opt for to do your logs?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hey Glaucon, we packed General Sherman up and sent him home 131 years ago and notice he hasn't been back since.. and the smart money is riding on he won't ! .... ha.. ha...
2 tpi if you can get them in a decent blade, but probably the 3 tpi will have to suffice as I am not knowledgeable of anyone that does a 2. Need lots of gullet to carry off as much waste as possible here. The 3 tpi will work fine, just get an aggressive hook angle. And take the blade off and clean it more often as the gum will take a toll on sharp teeth pronto if logs are still wet. A little cooking PAM sprayed on the blade won't hurt a thing either.
Coffee break over and back to blowing leaves which seems to be a never ending battle with all these hardwoods around my house.. :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
Sarge,
I've been using a 4 tpi skip tooth from Woodcraft that cuts very well(fast)...perhaps this approaches the 2 tpi thing.
Morning BG..
The skip tooth is just that.. a tooth skipped every other which gives more gullet space to haul off waste. I used the skip tooth for many years on my smaller BS. The hook is similar to the skip but with an added feature as both are suited for re-saw and ripping. The main difference in the two are that a pure skip has 0* rake angle and will give a little smoother cut. The hook is given a + or positive rake angle which results in a more aggressive cut but sacrifices smoothness of cut. Neither will give you a truly smooth cut as a regular tooth.
When you are doing re-saws in green-wet wood (or ripping for sizing in general in dry) smoothness is not a concern at that point. That has to be accounted for later after the stock has dried to a point it becomes workable and considered for and end project. Then it's going to see the jointer and planer to size it properly.
A regular tooth just doesn't have enough gullet depth and capacity for those task. It has it's place as it shines for fine cuts such as cutting joints and curves to eliminate as much further smoothing as possible in a given situation.
Off subject.. but what jointer did you end up with?
Regards...
SARGE..
Sarge,
"Off subject.. but what jointer did you end up with?"
None yet. Had a birthday last week and the kids/swmbo gave me gift certificates to Woodcraft. The good news is I now have enough money in gift certificates to do a leveraged buyout of Woodcraft. The bad news, I want the Griz 8" jointer..sigh!
The real problem with the jointer is the space...ain't got none. It sounds like I'll need to take a look at those SC boys before I make any decisions...do they make a vertical jointer?
BG,I've had the Grizzly 8" spiral cut jointer and been very pleased.Sarge- thanks for the tutorial on BS blades. If it's any (small) comfort to you, I pulled out 9 10x20 tarps of leaves in the past 2 days. I'm about 2/3 done <sigh>...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Wooooaaa Glaucon, I hope that is the end. I have to do mine about 4 times over the course of falling to avoid over-load. If you have that many and have to do it multiple, I would get a burn permit if available.
I just commented to BG about the straight 8" from Grizzly and it's merits and track record. The spiral is the same machine I believe with the addition of the cutter-heads adding the extra $$. That would be the way to ride unless your priority to $$ has to go to family over the tool as many. The good news is in that event the "straight eight is great" and changing blades is a nuisance, but not a major challenge that can't be accomplished with patience.
Coffee break over.. back to the 6" jointer that's taking care of business for the moment tackling about 150' of white oak before the planer gets the call. :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
A burn permit? In a blue state???? Surely, you jest...;^)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
They only sell the vertical at the drive-thru window I believe! ha.. ha... I remember you being size limited in your shop in the basement. One of those family first and make what you got work as most of us have en-countered over our journey.
I wouldn't discount the Griz 8" without the do-dads. At $655 it is in my opinion the best buy in quality to value ratio on the market. You will rarely find anyone that can find a weakness with anything on it as Griz seems to have honed that particular model to almost razor sharp right out of the box. There was I time I would have never imagined I would give praise to something with the label "made in Taiwan". Times have changed unfortunately and now I can only conclude that it doesn't have the label "made in China"!
Their 10" at that price looks tempting, but they didn't bring it to IWF (at least I didn't notice it if they did) and I prefer to look a gift horse in the mouth before money exchanges hands.
Regards...
SARGE..
Woodcraft gift certs......find someone who's going to buy the Jet there (they're on sale right now) and sell them the gift certs at a 10% discount. ;-)
Sounds like you're family's treatin' you right, BG!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
That's a good idea (except the discount part...lol). Quite frankly, I'm trying to decide just what I really want to buy..a big thing or several small things. I don't have any compressed air...but then I hardly ever use a nail. I still haven't pulled the trigger on a moisture meter (think you can relate). Also, there is the call of the LN...planes, a third more powerful router, and I really could use a new cordless drill. Lastly, would It be smart to see what the Fat guy brings?...and just keep my powder dry till then..hmm.
It seems like the more you get into this hobby the more your needs change and, surprisingly, your needs become less in a way. For instance, I wanted more clamps for panel glue ups and discovered using the workbench with a couple of cleats and wedges was not only faster and cheaper but also produced better results. Likewise, a jointer would really help with those glue ups but I've gotten kind of used to my #7...and the seams disappear with that puppy. I'm going to tke my time and see if anything moves me...
"...would It be smart to see what the Fat guy brings?" Absolutely!!! Excellent point. I suspect "the Fat guy" is going to bring me a truckload of Ipe to build a new deck with. We put it off waaaayyyyyyy too long (delayed retirement for Nick, yet another hunting season, blah, blah, blah) and it collapsed last week when we were rolling the old side-by-side 'fridge out after the new one was installed. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good morning Sarge,Thanks for your advice... I've never used a carbide blade (seems like too many $$$), but others swerr by them- Lennox, I think. Might consider one for riping or resawing, if I could get one at a good price.I did many leaves yesterday, and more are waiting today...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Morning Glaucon..
Yep.. the carbides require a small loan! ha.. ha...
But... they will maintain a larger degree of sharpness for about 20 + times more than heat sensitive carbon steel (curves.. joints.. regular cuts) and more than half that of bi-metal. I use a Wood-slicer at around $40. The draw-back is that it will only stay sharp about 1/4 as long as the carbide at around $200. The Wood-slicer does give smooth cuts and I can purchase and keep at least two on hand to avoid down time while the carbide is out for sharpening. Chunk the old and on with the new.
But.. the carbide also give smooth cuts and has an over-all advantage IMO to the WS. It will tackle the wet, green logs that you mentioned as the WS is not designed for, albeit you have to keep the teeth clean as that wet pitch will de-hone sharpness. So.. ideal for me as I occasionally do the log (usually from my yard or local downer I hate see go to waste) is to have a carbide on hand just for that. The WS will see most action on re-sawn veneer for earlier stated reasons and I like a bi-metal for general ripping as it will out-last the WS by about two times at around the same price.
Unfortunately.. there is no one do-it-all blade that makes life perfect IMO. I hold the same theory with TS blades as I use a 24 ATB (2 hooks and a flat) for ripping and do my smoother cross-cutting on a SCMS with at 60 tooth. I see no personal need for a 80 tooth as if I need showing end grain that smooth, I have a excellent low-angle block plane and I keep it sharp.
If you get a carbide there are a few things to keep in mind. The carbide teeth are very hard which equates also to brittle. Your SC has a crowned wheel, so all is well. If you had a Mini-max, it's flat tire requires you track the front teeth forward of the wheel to avoid contact. Those teeth riding directly on a tire under highly tensioned conditions as required for carbide blades have two adverse effects. (1) Pressure on brazed teeth riding on the rubber wheel itself can cause a tooth to loosen and break. (2) The hard, sharp teeth can dig into the tire and rough it or crack it to the point you can even lose a chunk. A spare tire on-hand speaks well as on a car.. just in case as down time is minimized!
Four 20 X 20 tarps of leaves to the street yesterday in phase two. Only two more phases of equal amount and leave gathering for the year is done. Hmm... if I cut them down and ran them through the SC, no more leaves. Unfortunately.. no more marriage as my wife loves trees as do I. I need to keep the shop doors locked so that SC can't venture outside and get in trouble while we sleep! ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Oh you guys with small yards. I have about 1½ acres of heavily treed yard. Takes me about three full days to rake them. This year it rained while they were falling and it is still to wet to rake. I usually just pull them to the bank/cliff but it's getting accumulated to the point I should be taking them somewhere else.
Anyway, I have the MM16 that I finally got going this weekend. The saw came with a one inch carbide blade. Are you saying that I should run the teeth clear off the pulley or just off the tire" I'm glad I haven't used it yet, I might have ruined it. I played with it for about fifteen minutes Frinight with a one inch timberwolf but should I have put the teeth on the tire over the sheave edge or clear off the sheave? I think someone on this forum suggested that a carbide blade shouldn't be run on sixteen inch saw. But why would they include it with the saw if that that were the case. I'm completely new with the band saw so I have plenty to learn.
Evening tinkerer..
Mini-max recommends running the teeth off the front tire if I remember correctly. The tire is flat but it is taller than the wheel itself. I believe they track it so just the teeth ride slightly off the front edge of the tire. You might give them a call to clarify. Going on memory of what Eric at MM recommended, but better safe than sorry as it's about the only BS I am aware of that has a flat tire.
I wouldn't worry about the 1" carbide on that saw. The Lennox Tri 1" carbide is what most MM owners use I believe. The 1" is narrower than the tire and the recommended 25,000 PSI required is easily attainable with your springs. The back-frame is super sturdy on that saw as it it just basically a scaled down version of the commercial Centauri. The 16" just refers to the wheel size itself. That MM is built like a tank and much more capable than most 20" BS's unless you get into the Italian line of scaled down commercials in 20"s.
Regards...
SARGE..
Edited 11/20/2006 1:08 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks for the info. My concern on the carbide blade was 'I think some one on this forum said that the bands would tend to crack if put on that small a wheel. It must not be too much of a factor or the company wouldn't put them out that way. My hearing is so bad that I limit my calls, but email if possible. Some folks I can understand pretty well and some I can't. Luckily I can hear my wife fairly well if she is facing me. Sometimes I call and can't understand them so have to put my wife on the line to interpret what they say. That is so embarrasing! I did that with Eric the other day.
Hey tinkerer...
There is a relationship to small wheels and wide blades with heavy tension, but the guys have been running that particular blade on that saw for awhile. If there had been problems you would have heard about it an "loud and clear". Keep in mind with that 1" blade you are running a 150' long blade on a 16" wheel. I run a 3/4" that is only 137" long on a 18" wheel. The length of blade is factored in the equation of wheel size also. You will be fine with the 1", IMO.
Don't be embarrassed about the hearing loss. Kinda goes with the turf. I loss some in Viet Nam and slowly lose more each year since. Runs on my mom's side of the family. My dad's side can hear a pin drop at 50 yards. I hope to evolve somewhere in tween. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Agazzani also uses a flat wheel, and the instructions also recommend tracking the teeth off the edge. But Jesse at eagle tools told me he never liked the performance he got with that set up and places hi blades in the center of the wheel.
Afternoon bakesale...
I see the manufacturers point of tracking it forward off the flat wheel as those carbide teeth are very hard. But I also have a tendency to lean on what Jesse said for two reasons.
(1) It sounds anti-mechanical to move stress on the wheel anywhere but as close to center axis as possible on a highly balanced wheel IMO. But "they" say do it?
(2) If Jesse says he does not like the set up and centers it as MM suggest with all 1/2" and under blades, how could one argue with the experience Jesse has with that particular machine.
Therefore.. a decision would have to be made on what sounds most logical to an individual then do it. You're either going to stress crack the tire or as Jesse suggest, get a better ride with more coordination of balance and no ill effects as warned about.
Which way do you run your Aggi as most MM users on their forum seem to track it forward as MM suggested they do? Seems the "proof would be found in the puddin' " and would be a good topic of discussion amonst Aggi and MM owners.
The good news for me is I have a crowned wheel that lifts the carbide teeth and still gets to ride down the center of the road for stability..
Regards...
SARGE..
"I usually just pull them to the bank/cliff but it's getting accumulated to the point I should be taking them somewhere else." Do those leaf shredders they sell actually work?? I've often wondered. Up here in the Great NW, we just leave them on the ground and it's so wet they decompose over the winter (we don't have a "yard" per se but more of a field, and woods everywhere else). But with a leaf shredder, the product could be used as a mulch.
Otherewise, we could take them to the yard waste section of the transfer station (aka dump). Wouldn't cost much since they don't weigh much.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Do those leaf shredders actually work? I'm not acquainted with the leaf shrewder so that is certainly an option. I like the idea for keeping them on the land for mulch rather that trucking them to a dump some where. We even save our table scraps. I have noticed that any time you work them they compress down a lot. Uncompressed, I probably have thousands of bushels and now that they are wet it would amount to be quite a bit of weight, besides they are unrakeable. Here in WV they don't decompose before spring and, if they are heavy enough, the grass is dead. You know every area in the world is nice in some ways and in some ways not so nice. It is what you make of it.
Evening FG..
I have a Toro mower that side dis-charges, bags and mulches. The mulcher definitely mulches. But mulching amounts to just chopping if up into smaller debris. If you just leave it on the lawn as tinkerer stated, it won't decompose fast enough over winter and kills the grass in this region. Forget the bagger as they get so deep at my house that you would have to stop every two to three rows to empty.
The good news.. God made the Stihl Leaf Blower on the eight day! :>) What used to take me 6 hours a day to rake into piles.. rake onto a 20' x 20' tarp and pull to the street (my city has curb-side pick-up for about everything.. a truck with a large vacuum for leaves.. a fork-lift with accompanying truck for sawn-downed trees, etc.) takes about an 1 1/2 hours to blow into piles and use the tarp trick.
I used to de-compose the mulch in a 16' x 8' rail-road timbered box. It would have to be much larger to hold all year after year. But if you are into giant mutant worms... I got em in that mulch. I could move a hand-full of mulch back and fill a quart container with 6"-9" monster worms. I even prompted my son (younger at that time) to box em and whole-sale them to several local fish bait shops. Summer money gained a source and he got a small taste of small business. Gotta start somewhere~
Regards...
SARGE..
"The good news.. God made the Stihl Leaf Blower on the eight day! :>) " Yep! Funny thing, I rented one today for the very first time. Wow!!! Used it on the driveway and parking area (all gravel, newly refreshed last spring) to peel up the layers and layers of Big Leaf Maple and Alder leaves, all sopping wet of course. Absolutely fantastic how great it worked.
We don't have "lawn" -- just grass, with buttercup and some other ground cover interspersed, in our big front "yard"/field. Trees too of course. The maples shed mostly on vacant property next door, and on our driveway :>( while the field has mostly alders around the edge.
I don't think we can grow worms quite that big here where it's much colder. I could try, though!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey FG, you think it works well when the leaves are wet.. try it when the leaves are dry. You can blow all the leaves from your yard to the neighbors while he run's down to the conveince store. Quickly hide the blower in the garage and mention the "gale force" wind that came through while he was gone. ha.. ha...
Just kidding' of course, but that blower is much more effective when they are dry and with a little handling experience, you can direct the leaves to a pile by circling the flock much as a sheep-dog does to corral sheep.
Evening as it's late in EST...
SARGE..
Hi, Sarge. There's no such thing as a "dry leaf" in the Western Washington, LOL. Once they start to fall, it's raining. If we do get some, though, maybe I could strap the blower to my collie and tell him to round up the leaves, ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Morning Glaucon...
I mentioned the 3 thumb screws on the top guides of the SC 18" are all M5 x .080 but found the allen head set screw that locks the bottom rear thrust bearing was slightly larger as the M5 slid right in with no thread contact.
Recieved the M6 x 1 this morning from Reid Tool and it is definitely an M6 x 1 in that position if you decide to change them out to knurled thumb screws in the future. Total cost is around $12 for the 3 M5s and 1 M6 in stainless steel.
Regards...
SARGE..
Thank you Sarge. Do you have any contact info for Reid Tool?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Afternoon Glaucon..
http://www.reidsupply.com
800-253-0421
pt# AJ 648 qty. 3 for the M5 x .080
ptr# AJ 660 qty 1 for the M6 x 1
Regards...
SARGE..
Good evening Sarge and thanks. I'll be checking on the shipping date of my BS after Thanksgiving, and will give Reid a call. Best wishes to you and yours over the holiday. Those of us living in safety in a warm house with family near have much to be thankful for.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Good morning Sarge,Picked up my SC 18" BS last weekend, and uncrated it yesterday. Seems to have arrived in good condition. I mounted the table last night. I'll finish tuning it and mounting the fence today.I noticed that in the current issue of FWW, the reviewer complained of faults in the SC 18" BS he was examining. He complained of flexing of the upper guide post that led to misalignment of the guides and blade twisting during resawing. There is no mention of what width blade or how much tension was applied.I did notice a slight hollow in the table when I placed my machinist's straight edge on it, but I haven't tried to slip a feeler gauge underneath it. The reviewer complained of similar findings on the saw he reviewed. That and a bent upper blade guide bracket that misaligned the blade between the upper and lower guides.I'm not sure what you found on the saw that you bought when you set it up. I have to finish tuning mine before I can take it for a test drive. I'm a little concerned about the flexing problem noted above, as I was planning to resaw with this BS. Have you noticed any problems? Any disappointments while woodworking with it? How about resawing?It seems that BS are among the more difficult power tools to get right. The Rikon, Delta and the Laguna have all come in for criticism... now the SC. On the other hand, I'm not certain how much of what is complained about actually translates into a woodworking rather than a machinist's problem.Be curious what your take is, now that you've had a chance to use yours a bit,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Afternoon Glaucon...
Other than I felt the need to replace the set screw on the bottom rear thrust bearing with the M8 X 1 thumb screw, no problems. I did have to shim the trunnion (the rear one and not the one with the adjuster for angle) about .002 to get the blade to be in perfect 90 degree alignment from table all the way to the top 12" maximum when raised all the way. It was off about slightly at the top 2 inches. That would probably be in--significant to most and probably is.. but while I was fine tuning why not?
I also cut the bottom 1 1/2" off the guide post guard so I could see the top thrust bearing without obstruction. That has to be done on many saws including the MM. No problems with re-saw as I have put some 10" wide white oak through for re-saw. Have done tenons and ripping also and no problems with either.
The saw has adjustments for the guide bar on the right rear next to the raise and lower wheel. Did the FWW reviewer check the alignment and adjust if necessary?
And did he explain how a steel guide bar 3/4" x 3/4" that is not attached to the blade.. not attached to any device that has to do with tension can flex. I just went down and took my guide bar completely off after reading your post and tried to flex it. I suppose if I put it's center on a solid axis and put all my weight on both ends I might be albe to flex it.. but I'm not going to do that as it's not related to the tension springs or mounts in any way that could deliver that much torque. And even if the bar was bent from the git-go, the guides are set after the blade is tracked the the guide bar lowered to the correct height for stock. If I can't get it to flex.. how would the bar put my guides out of adjustment causing the blade to twist on re-saw?
BTW.. what month issue is the FWW and whe did you recieve it? I think I have seen a new one on a bood-stand I haven't recieved. The last thing I got was the Tool Guide and Shop issue!
Regards...
SARGE.. jt
Good evening Sarge,The issue is FWW #189 (Feb 2007), page 30.I wired a 240V receptacle in the shop, mounted the fence and finished the assembly. It's been a long day, and I feel the need of a beer... so I'll adjust the guides and tracking tomorrow. I've a Timberwolf 1/2" 4 tpi blade in place so I can do some test rips.I have to say I'm a little confused over the function of the resaw guide- I've always used an auxiliary fence. Any thoughts?Kind regards,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon..
The cylindrical tube on the front of the fence is basically a point fence that is removable on the front face of the stock fence. That's what I have used the majority of time over the years. The object is having a contact surface only at a leading point and hand guiding the stock through off that reference point.
The Steel City guys have just given both pointers and regular fence users what they want in one neat package with an option to go either way with a few turns of a screw.
Not everyone is comfortable with the point fence as it takes some practice and experience getting used to. I suggest that if you have trouble guiding a good grade sashed paint brush where say.. wall meets trim or ceiling without getting paint on the other... unscrew the point guide and use the normal fence you are used too. That fence is not bad.. not bad at all!
I used it just to see for myself if it was decent. After using a point the majority of the time over the years, I find my point guide sitting on a holding rack more and more as the stock fence has been giving excellent re-saws with no adjustment for drift with that 3/4" Woodslicer cranked to about the 7/8" or just over mark on the tension indicator.
Any further questions... ask as I check the computer every 2 or 3 hours on coffee break.
Regards...
SARGE..
Thanks for the info Sarge.I've never used a point fence before... always set up a resaw fence that was compensated for drift. I'll have to try the point fnece out. I'm fairly good freehanding... and haven't used masking tape when painting for some years- ;^)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon..
Just up for coffee break as joinery on the base of my table is just about complete before starting final edge jointing for the top with a hand-plane. Looking for a tight "butt kiss". ha.. ha...
I picked up the point fence idea from Sgain Dubh several years ago and just honed my skill at it. Try the point fence on scrap till you get the hang and don't forget the the regular fence on your saw is as good as I've seen and that includes most of the Italian Stallions. The point really comes in handy on ripping thick stock if you are going to the jointer afterwards anyway. Just remember that a BS is finesse and not a PM with a 5 HP that will knock out anything in it's path. Just like that trim painting.. patience is a virtue with a BS to run a steady course.
Go have some fun and when you get to that set screw underneath for rear thrust adjustment.. I hope you got the M6 x 1 thumb-screw. If you didn't you will know why I suggested it. :>)
Regards...
SARGE.. jt
Thanks Sarge- I was going to order from Reid's tonight.As for patience, that's why I work wood (and fish). I do enough running around on my day job... no sense in going that way in my off hours,I'll give the point fence a try on some jointed dimensional lumber,Best regards,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hello Sarge,I have been running the SC 18" BS for a few days. I ripped some 8/4 QS cherry for table legs using a 3/4" Timberwolf blade. The cut was easy, smooth and with no appreciable drift. I found the guide set up to be straightforward, although the lower guides are, as usual, harder to access.Your advice about ordering the thumbscrews from Reid's was well taken, particularly the M6 for the lower guides. Thanks for that.I can't say that I have put the saw through a heavy workout- or that I have more than a few days on it, but I like what I see so far. I know that FWW gave it a harsh review in the most recent issue, but I'm not seeing many flaws. I don't appreciate any flex in the column when tensioning, and the guide post rack and pinion runs very smoothly. The guard and bracket seem fine. Still haven't run a feeler gauge under my machinist's straight edge on the table, but I'd be surprised if it amounted to much.The machine is easy to set tracking on, and with the blade properly tracked and the guides set, I don't appreciate any drift thus far. Most of the controls are logical, beefy and easy to use. That and its more than ample power make it a pleasure to use.Thanks for your advice and pointers,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Evening Gluacon...
I didn't think you would have any problems.. I won't question if someone said there table is not flat. If it it.. that is obvious if you are using a machinist straight edge.
Most machines have bottom guides that are more difficult to get to. I will suggest you do as I did and hang a flash-light close to the BS. With the bottom set screw on the rear thrust bearing replaced with an M6, life will not be that difficult. I also cut off the bottom 1 1/2" on the guide bar guard. I want to see my top bearings at all times and especially the relationship to their front and where the gullets and teeth are positioned on the bearings. And the dust removal on the saw with my DC is better than I have personally seen on any BS on the market.
Aside from not questioning the issue with the table being flat.. I would most certainly question the issue of Flex on the guide bar. Maybe a bent or mis-welded guide bar but their are 4 positioning bolts on the GB housing that allow precise adjustment. I did not read that there was an attempt to adjust at all.. just a conclusion drawn that twisted the blade on re-saw. I will also question that as even if the bracket was bent or mis-aligned.. you can still make an adjustment with the housing that would properly distance the bearings and not twist the blade.
All I can say is I would have loved to have been there when the conclusion was drawn as I would have a few questions and suggestions that might have changed that conclusion if followed. At this point I can only wonder about how the conclusion was drawn. I have over 400 linear feet through my machine at this point and have had absolutely no problems with it.
But...... I did take the time to set it up properly before the machine was ever taken for a test ride. A mal-aligned guide bar bracket should have been caught before the machine ever got turned on. Maybe the one that was tested..? Maybe not..?????
Regards...
SARGE.. jt
My local Woodcraft does not have SC products, nor do I see them on the main Woodcraft Website. Maybe this was a special purchase by your local store?
Tom,It seems that many of the SC distributors in the Northeast are Woodcraft stores (Pennsylvania, Delaware, Connecticut...) Not sure where you live, you can check for distributors athttp://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/distributors.cfm?section=3The Woodcraft in Delaware seems to have taken up the SC line- in the past 6 months they have expanded their power tool offerings- SC, SawStop etc. Probably a higher margin than on other items?GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 11/18/2006 8:40 am ET by Glaucon
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