While I’ve been a Delta fan most of my life, I’ve not been happy with their quality the last few years. They continue to go downhill with no new product and the cheaping of the current line Last year a built a Steel City Mortisor and love it. I found this article this morning. Looks like these guys are going to kick some butt.
Replies
Now THAT is too cool! Tho' I must confess that I never felt the need to have my tablesaw flat to within a few thou' over it's width, it could double as a sandpaper sharpening station. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"it could double as a sandpaper sharpening station. ;-)"You sharpen your sandpaper? :)
BruceT
Bruce,
Klingspoor is having a sale on sandpaper sharpening files. There is one problem, the files are so small they can't find them!
Arrrrrgghhhh,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"You sharpen your sandpaper? "
What, and you dont?!! Whaddaya do, just toss it out after it gets dull? ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Clever idea, but granite has its problems too.
I'll sit this one out.
What problems do you see? Other than it can chip if you drop something on it I can't think of any. I chipped our counter top at home and was able to repair it with some epoxy. I can see the advantages more than the one flaw. Dead flat, no rust or corrosion, not affected by temperature, durable, heavy to dampon vibration. All you have to do is seal it once a year. To me that sounds pretty good. I spend way to many hours a month just trying to keep the rust off my saw table top.
Well, yeah, granite can chip and crack - it is great for compressive loads, not to much so with getting whacked by something. Imagine you accidently drop a sliding miter or something on in and crack it.
Alls I'm saying is I would wait for other folk to be the pioneer on this. Oftentimes pro gear has the good stuff, and I've never seen professional machinery with a granit top. I know granite is used in machine shops (I have a great big, certified flat piece of granite), so you would think all kinds of pro machinery would use granite, if it made sense.
I don't think of a table saw as needing absolute flatness, because the material isn't flat. So, mine is pretty flat, not perfectly flat for sure, but pretty flat, and cast iron is tough as heck. I know when they try flatten cast iron, if they don't do it properly it can warp, but I suspect a properly machined peice stays pretty flat for a long, long time.
I don't have trouble with rust on my machinery. I'm surprised you do. Maybe you live in a particularly humid place (?)
Anyway, I think it is a neat idea, but I'll wait and see.
This sort of stuff gets you thinking outside the box:
"Honey, you know how you've been wanting that granite countertop for the kitchen island and I've been wanting a new table saw?"
I'm not so sure that granite is necessarily going to be any flatter than cast iron.
True, it *can* be made dead flat. But a poor grind job will create a non-flat table out of granite just as well as it will for cast iron.
My view is that most of the flatness isses we see on existing CI products is poor workmanship more than internal stresses.
Comparing a granite Starrett lab-grade surface plate with a mass-produced asian tool is like comparing the Space Shuttle to a cheap aluminum row boat. They are both made of the same material but that is where the comparison ends.
Granite might make a good saw table, or it might not. To me the unknowns and disadvantages far outweigh the advantages.
We just confirmed this story with a report on our Web site. The company rep I spoke with didn't have much new to add that wasn't covered in that original article, but our editors at AWFS will be taking a closer look this week, so if you all have questions that you want us to pass on to Scott Box over at Steel City, post them in this thread and we'll see what we can do:
http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?nav=main&webtag=fw-editorsblog&entry=204
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Edited 7/18/2007 11:59 am ET by MBerger
"And the T-slot for the miter gauge is more like a dovetailed way – with a slightly different design for the bar that keeps the gauge from tipping (though the bar is still a true 3/4” x 3/8”)." Can't tell by reading this if that means you can or you can't use whatever miter gauge you want. Do you know, Matt? The granite top is intriguing (even more so, the granite jointer fence), but I'd want to be able to use my Incra miter gauge with it.
This is significant "think outside the box" behavior. Good for them!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What is the depth of cut? With a 2 in thick top wouldn't you lose some of that? or are they cutting out the center thiner?
Edward
Edward,
Look at your own table saw, and you'll find your answer... The area under the inset is all open, so the thickness of the rest of the table is virtually irrelevant.
Buster
Buster,
Actually on a cabinet saw the limit on blade height is how close the arbor support can get to the table surface. The arbor is way wider then the opening for the insert. On my Unisaw the table is ~0.75 inches at that point, and the top of the arbor support gets a little under 1 inch from the top surface. I've never really looked at a contractors saw but even with those I find it hard to believe the whole arbor fits in the space of the removable plate. Maybe your saw has an oversize plate? Or a very small arbor.
But anyway some one said they cut out part of the table for arbor clearance, so as long as they cut a radius at all corners of the cut out so they don't set up crack points in the stone it will work.
I misuderstood your message, add to that a littl ebit of a brain fart and I apologize.
The granite while cool, is probably not really a necessary improvment. The flatness isn't really needed, and most of us have figured out way to keep our saws from rusting. It would be nice to see this saw with a cast iron top and the riving knife. That would be enough for me...
I think it will be a sure fire success, and spare parts are every where to be found. If anything happens to the table just grab your tape and head to the nearest Cemetary select your headstone of choice and your away with the mixer.
Sure the mantles on the fireplaces wont be safe. But why not marble ?.Some months ago I helped??a contractor friend of mine who was moveing a marble fireplace which was massive from an old house that was a listed building, and it looked as if was installed last year.
So marble is new but its been around far longer than anything else theyhave used to make saws with.And IF it fails sure its not American did'nt they make it in china or one of those other forigen places. Regds Boysie Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
boysie,
I think your onto something with a "replacement parts" store for the granite tops...those cemeteries have not contributed to our economy in years.
I'd be careful of the switch to marble..switching is not an Irish strong suit. Remember the shamrock for clover debacle. I look out now and my lawn is covered in clover, not a shamrock in sight.
Matt,
I'd be interested to hear about the wear qualities Steel City expects from the granite tablesaw top.
I own (though no longer use) an old Atlas tablesaw from the 1950's that had so much lumber run over its surface that the area within about six inches of the blade, from the front to the back of the saw, was dished about .020. The depression wasn't caused by warping of the cast iron. It was isolated in this area because of wear.
I had the surface ground flat a few years ago (cost only about $60.00), but it did make me realize that even cast iron can abrade away under heavy use.
I've been in many high-end homes that had granite countertops installed in the kitchens. On some, where the kitchens received pretty heavy use, the initial polishing sheen had been worn off the tops of the counters and scratches appeared everywhere. And that's just from lightweight dishes and pots and pans shuffling over the surface. How will the granite stand up to workshop type wear - heavy boards run over the top hour after hour? How quickly will that initial precision flatness be compromised?
I wonder if Steel City has considered this issue. A granite-topped tablesaw is an interesting idea, to be sure. But, as Alexander Pope said (in better fashion than I could ever hope to), I'm not going to be the first to buy one..."Be not the first by which the new is tried, nor yet the last to lay the old aside."
Zolton
BG , Clover thats not clover thats a new species of Shamrock we deveoped for the Americans they like everything BIG.
I think Steel City use the slogan "made by woodworkers for woodworkers" or something like that ,and from what I'm reading about there Products mostly from the good folk here they seem to be on a winner with a lot of there machines.
Over on this side of the world the machines we get have a lot of built in safety gimmicks that you dont have on yours.From watching TV woodworking the riving knife and blade guard and other things seem to be in the way.But over the years you people have come up with your own devices which work just as well i'm sure.
I'm retired now so I can say it as it is, Health & Safety over here is a pain in the butt. There are more accidents in the work place now with all these new regulations or codes as you call them than there were 20yrs ago. All the codes in the world can not protect some Loodramon who goes to work still suffering the effects of whatever he was at the night before which he cant remember .
So I hope that manufactors over in US seek the help of users like the ones on this site and I'm sure there are others,before they make changes to what can have an enormous effect on your lively hoods,hope you can make some sence out of all this spiell. I suppose what I really mean is "IF IT'S NOT BROKE WHY FIX IT. Regds. boysie Slan LeatI'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
My understanding (from counter tops) is, marble is soft so far as stone goes and is not recommended for counter tops. Granite is much harder surface....
I would assume that marble would be equally unsuitable for machine tables if it can not even be used as a counter top.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,Granite's essentially quartz. It's hard. (can't remember how hard the feldspar or the schist (sp) is on the Moh's scale, although google would)cheers,eddie
Then we are in agreement. I said granite is hard, in my previous post. It's marble I said was soft, for stone that is....
Jeff,
Marble is, as you say, quite a bit softer than granite. However, that's not why it's not used very much as a countertop material. The reason is that marble is prone to staining (as is granite, to some degree, if not periodically sealed).
But, while marble isn't found often in residential kitchens, it's got a long history of use in commercial food preparation enterprises. It was (and still is) used a lot in pastry making. It is considered an ideal surface for rolling out dough.
In a kitchen situation (even a commercial one) the wear factor is negligable. Marble is certainly a tough enough material to withstand abrasion from dishes and pots and pans. But the stain factor usually eliminates it from contention for residences.
Zolton
"that's not why it's not used very much as a countertop material."
kitchen countertops, it's the material of choice for high end bathrooms... countertops, floors, and walls. Speaking of floors, the fact that marble has been used for thousands of years (and in some current buildings dating that far back) as flooring would squash any notion that it wears excessively with abrasion. One visit to the Duomo in Milan will make this point abundantly clear, while the cathedral is itself over 500 years old the spectacular marble flooring was completed, if memory is right, during the reign of Napoleon, making the floors over 200 years old and still looking magnificent under thousands of visitor's feet each day.
"It is considered an ideal surface for rolling out dough."
My wife, being a pasty chef, will tell you that it really doesn't have anything to do with marble specifically but that fact that any stone material stays cool and that is key for any dough that is being prepared. With that in mind, granite works just fine. The traditional aspect of it comes into play from the baking tradition in Europe where marble was more prevalent in kitchens up until more modern times.
Morning Buster...
"The granite while cool, is probably not really a necessary improvement. The flatness isn't really needed, and most of us have figured out way to keep our saws from rusting. It would be nice to see this saw with a cast iron top and the riving knife. That would be enough for me"... Buster
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"this new hybrid saw will feature a European-style riving knife and guard (hurrah!), a trunnion system that adds many extra pounds of cast iron mass and an improved fence system that glides over the tabletop.Once you get over the shock of a granite-topped table saw, you’re probably thinking it’s going to be expensive. Nope. The base-model table saw with a granite top will come with 30”-long rails and a 1-3/4hp motor for $1,049 after a rebate is applied. (You can also get the new saw with cast iron top for $999 after rebate, but for $50 the granite is the hot ticket.)Steel City plans to release the granite-topped table saw in November or December, according to company officials. ... from the article
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge,
I didn't see that it would be available with a cast iron top, I did see the riving knife.
The granite top is interesting, I must admit that I expected a little more from them last year. Being the new guys, they put out out a fairly standard line of tools. But the granite, and the riving knife. This really blows me away.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. You're input and your experience with Steel City tools is always appreciated.
Buster
Morning Buster..
You're welcome, my friend. I do think that if you take a close look at several of their machines under the surface, you might find some extra that doesn't show in a picture. Just little things that should have been done that nobody bothered with or did not recognize. But.. I contend that their ad statement about being "tool guys" is not just a catchy phrase dreamed up by some advertising guru, but a legitimate claim.
Have a look at the BS's and the way they re-enforce everything along with the double springs. They opted for one drill press with 6" quill travel and instead of making 4 models with varying features, put all goodies under one banner with a split head to back-up that long of a travel as on industrial models. Without that split head, you will have problems down the road from that addition.
Look under the hood of their TS at the massive one piece casting and how it is mounted. Push the fence and run to the end of rail to catch it before it leaves the county. The only thing they lack that the public wants on a TS is the riving knife.. and that is realized and starting to show up.
And the list goes on. But unless you have a close look, the machines look like standard fare on the surface as many others. But as with a race-car.. you can only see a pretty paint job on the out-side. You have to raise the hood and look underneath at the motor, drive-train and suspension to get a feel of what it is capable of in when the "chase is on" and details might mean the difference between finishing out front or being an "also ran". :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 7/23/2007 8:54 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
"They opted for one drill press with 6" quill travel and instead of making 4 models with varying features, put all goodies under one banner with a split head to back-up that long of a travel as on industrial models."I have been very impressed with Steel City's offerings, and I remember reading this bit on their philosophy of offering only one good drill press.But then when you see they have 11 different models of 10" cabinet table saws.... :@)
Morning Wilbur...
TS's are the number one sought after shop machine. Just like automobiles, a manufacturer is not going to stay in business if he only made one model with the same size motor, tranny, fuel system, color, interior offering, etc., etc. at one price point. He would exclude himself from a very large % of the consumer market that based their decision to buy on options and what he had to spend.
Same scenario with TS's. Left-right tilt.. H.P.. 220V - 120V.. fence length.. type of fence and the list goes on. By not making various models here to accommodate the consumers purse and taste you would lose a large % of potential incoming revenue.
A DP is sort of a specialized machine in that it requires finesse and not necessarily HP to drill small holes. It has a column, head, chuck, etc., etc. and the price range is doesn't vary widely from one brand to another. Why not just put the best of the best options available under one roof?
Keep the consumer from having to go back and forth with his decision of this option or that option on the other model to purchase. There are just not a lot of various options available on a drill press. Why spread them over numerous models.
This was basically the way it was explained to me by Scott Box, co-owner of Steel City during a conversation with him at a WW show.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Hi John,I did put a smiley in my post. :@)I've been lucky enough to be able to outfit my shop with used vintage (1940-50s) machinery, but if I had to go new, I'd most likely go with Steel City.
Morning Wilbur..
Ha.. ha... I knew you were just kidding', but thought that an explanation with sound reasoning might benefit someone reading that have never given much thought to "why" some things evolve as they do.
And.. as a matter of fact, I will start a thread in a few moments as I just received a call from Scott Box who returned from the AWFS show in Las Vegas this morning. Interesting conversation to say the least. :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
"It would be nice to see this saw with a cast iron top and the riving knife." Not a problem, and a bit less expensive also. That may be the route I take.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sure. You can ask him why the decision of granite over reinforced concrete. The 'crete would be stronger and at least repairable by the end user should a chip occur. Still can be ground flat--and for less cost. Still adds dampening mass. 'Crete can be tinted to a line of colors. Heck, they could make it terrazzo if they wanted some class and still come under the cost of granite. And by cost here, I don't mean just the cost of the material. Instead of quarrying it via 3rd party, they could be in control.Take care, Mike
who *if* he wanted a table saw, would avoid a hunk of rock for a table.
with the price of steel (cast iron) rising in recent years the way it has, I wonder if there was an equally compelling economic motive for Steel City to make this switch.
Obviously it's interesting if for no other reason than it's different, but I wonder how much this will appeal to prospective buyers.
I've heard that one of the issues with Chinese cast iron, is that it wants to warp when machined. This is often overcome by aging the castings but that takes a long time, a year or more. Quality of the iron also plays a part and all this adds up to extra expense.
Of course, there is no reason for a woodworking machine to have a perfectly flat top but this has become important to small machine buyers and manufacturers are responding to the demand. Since they can't do it with the lower quality castings that most of the companies are using, granite is their chosen alternative.
How a person uses their saw may have a lot of bearing on the practicality of a granite top. First off, you can't just bolt or clamp anything to it. Many of us attach things like power feeders, feather boards and auxiliary jigs of various kinds. I'm often nervous clamping to the iron for fear of cracking it. It takes good pressure to hold some of these fixtures securely.
Attaching something like an extension table or router table to the granite would make me very apprehensive. New equipment is like a new car. You take care and polish it for a few years but eventually it gets dings and scratches. Any horizontal surface gets used in a shop. My 35+ yr. old saw has seen some rough use, spilled everything, whacked with this or that , hammered on. I don't know if granite can take that kind of abuse over the long term. I also wonder about the epoxied fittings lasting. A good saw can last a couple of generations but that would be compromised if key fasteners fail and can't be fixed. Lots of things can scratch granite. A burr on the miter head could cut a rough groove.
I bet that is going to be a beautiful saw. The granite should add some solid mass. No rust on the top is an added bonus. I wonder if you have to order it specifically drilled for certain fences. I use an older jetlock fence since I use a power feeder so often. It has a front and back rail. When I grow up, I may be able to care for my equipment less abusively, but for now, I have too many reservations about a granite top.
Another classic example of a solution looking for a problem....
The question that gets me is: Why can any north american manufacturers make a 'normal' table saw with a riving knife... I suppose the PM 2000 is the only one so far. (Grizzly - 12", Sawstop - nuff said, Steel City - Granite...)
Good morning...
To answer EF's question about depth of cut... the bottom of the granite top has an angled taper under-neath the blade area from the arbor up to the surface that allows the arbor full travel. Therefore.. full integrity of depth of cut is maintained.
IMO.. the pro's and con's of granite were well thought out before it went into production by Steel City as common sense would tell you, hence the stainless-steel re-enforcement, etc. There will continue to be speculation both yeah and nay as the whole thing has caught everyone by surprise. But... without any further comment, I will wait to get details as they reveal themselves as the Steel City guys can give them "straight from the horse's mouth"! They are at Las Vegas at the AWFS doing just that now.
I will try to get back with my opinion of how a retro-fitted granite fence on a current Steel City 8" cast iron jointer fence works in reality in several weeks. There's quite a number of linear feet that will have to pass over that jointer before I make any more comments other than I think the idea of a granite fence face on a jointer "rocks". But anything else would be pure speculation at this point... so let the cards fall where they may!
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
The more I read and hear about SteelCity, the more I want to add their machines to my shop. I'm not a brand snob, but there is some obvious thought and quality going into these machines and as several of you have said, SC is thinking waaaaay outside the box. This is good for woodworking overall, and encouraging to those of us who will need new tools within the next year or so.
That being said, I'm expecting that SC will put some of their 1st gen machines on sale in the fall to clear warehouse space for the 08 line, and that may be the time to buy.
I just called woodcraft in springfield ma. and they are puting some sc tools out there to see what the market says.I'm going up there soon to buy the 14" bandsaw I'll let everyone know what I think of it.
AlanFor what it's worth, I love mine so far. I bought the riser block kit and installed it fairly easily. Steel City has excellent customer support. I don't think you will be disappointed. I imagine you will be as delighted as I am. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Thanks for the information on the cut out.
How often does a cast iron fence or table top warp after it is sent out in the field? I understand aging casting and all that but if you do all that right before the final surfacing how many warp a year later? Is warping really a common problem?
Edward
Edited 7/19/2007 4:07 pm ET by ef
Well, one way ya can use this new top as dual purpose is to clean it off and eat your lunch or dinner on it!!!
Chris
Evening Ed..
I don't think you could come to any accurate conclusion on how many warp after they are sent to the field. Too many factors would have to fall conveintly into some type of data collection to get an accurate read as I see it.
The main factors as I see it are: how thick is the cast iron on a given machine top.. how well is it re-enforced (ribbed, etc.) under-neath.. what type casting and was it stress relieved properly before being cast. And the list goes on. But, it is a known fact cast iron can and will warp under certain conditions.
I have a factory -reconditioned Uni-saw that I will guess had a warped table? When I inspected it before purchase, the table had been completely re-ground to very flat. But... I do not know if it was warped when it originally left the assembly line due to poor quality cast iron or workman-ship.. or if it happened after the fact. So.. I don't think you can answer the question without it being pure speculation.
And.. I will agree with Hammer that pure flat is not a necessary working ingredient on a table-top. But.. most are in the mind-frame that it is. Look at what I call the "fluke" review of the Steel City BS under "SC BS has Flaws. The top was measured with the "pin-out" and was off by .018 at the slot. Many immediately responded mentally before the "fluke" was exposed with, that's totally beyond acceptance and turned their attention to another if in the market for a BS.
I have the Steel City 18" BS that was reviewed and the table has a dip of around .009 on the back rear in about a 3" x 3" square. Many feet have gone through since the purchase and not once did I have to "scuttle" a piece of stock that rode that table before the project was finished.
I have read on the MM and Laguna forums of table with just as much dip on machines that cost well over $1000 more delivered and have thicker cast iron tops. Not one owner returned their saw and are probably re-sawing happily away at the moment. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
"My" major concern is on fences as on the jointer. They are thinner by nature of design and that leads to more concern about warpage. I can't remember ever seeing a jointer fence that was truly flat. Rarely will you see the table on those warp as they are usually very thick depending again on which one and who built it, IMO.
So.. bottom line again is that I don't think your question can be answered with much degree of accuracy.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge, I'm skimming all these message, quick question: Do saw tables tend to "sink" around the throat insert?? I have some vague recollection of reading about that, and my Jet certainly is low in that area.
Your message was a bit cryptic, or I'm too tired: Do you actually have the granite fence??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Morning Jamie...
"Sarge, I'm skimming all these message, quick question: Do saw tables tend to "sink" around the throat insert?? I have some vague recollection of reading about that, and my Jet certainly is low in that area"... FG
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I am certainly no metallurgist (sp), but cast iron can warp. Warpage is caused by movement from released stress. I cannot give a qualified answer as to if it actually shrinks by contracting. Perhaps better answered by a metallurgist who would have the qualifications to do so.
Cast iron is a simple metal that was derived by a not so simple process of achieving it in the ready to go form. What you get after the casting can vary widely with the method it was cast. Size of casting.. grade of iron.. carbon content (graphite flakes).. shape of graphite and how they were dispersed throughout the material.. cooling process or tempering.. quality control during the process, etc., etc. and the list goes on.
Again.. could the Jet top may have been dipped originally or did it happen latter? What type method was used to cast it.. formula of material mix and dispersion. Too many questions without enough known data as Jet probably won't give true manufacturing details by calling their tech line. I doubt seriously anyone that far removed from the actual manufacturing process would have a faint clue as to how the cast iron was attained. :>)
Cast iron is not as ferocious as some may believe (back to what I have already said about method.. grade of metal.. etc.). I have a re-conditioned Uni-Saw that has had the trunnions completely replaced. The Delta has multi component trunnions that are known to be fragile and will crack, IMO. That is one reason Uni-Saws are readily available re-co'ed as they are as "I" see it. Trucking companies have a tendency to dis-regard the word FRAGILE marked on the side of a box and kind of throw things around a wee bit.
The saw arrives on a distributor floor quite often with a cracked trunnion and not realized till after the fact when it is returned (Ala Greg at Redmond & Son Machinery who installs them). Once the saw is in place in a shop, impact is not as likely and there are no further risk to the trunnions. Greg and I inspected the Uni I purchased before I loaded it for that, warpage.. gears,, etc. All was well with it and it got loaded in my truck for a ride home and I do not expect any major problems as it is now basically stationary.
Could the table warp down the road? You betcha.. it's cast iron and what is in that batch of cast iron on my top will always be a mystery in reality. One batch of CI can have variance if the graphite was not disperse evenly. How ya gonna tell? You're not is the answer and it will always remain a mystery without the facts and nothing but the facts.
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"Do you actually have the granite fence?"?.. FG
No... That was kept very hush-hush to all but company execs as they wanted the surprise element for the AWFS Show.
I do have a template I made last night after I got home of my jointer fence. It will take a ride to Georgia Marble and Granite today as the good folks over there have a nice piece of scrap black granite cut-off that will fit that template. If.. if.. the cost is not prohibitive to drill holes so I can retro-fit it to my existing cast iron fence, Ms. Diane will get the green light to do it. Cutting and polishing the face is not that expensive. Drilling holes IS as they have to use diamond bits and I need one hole size to accommodate and recess the bolt head and a smaller thru hole to accommodate the diameter of bolt I actually use to mate the 2 mil black granite to the face of my existing fence.
If all goes well.. I will have a granite fence by mid-week. I had already planned to add phenolic to it, but this got my interest up and I have some insides in the granite business here in Ga. We have the largest exposed piece of granite in the world about 13 miles from my home )Stone Mountain, Ga). Those veins run everywhere and Georgia is not short on granite and granite products.
So... I will roll the dice this morning and see how they land.
Gone tinkering..... :>)
Sarge.. john thompson
You got the spelling right Sarge.I am a metallurgist.The seasoning of castings used to be done in nodular iron. They now innoculate the casting so that the process happens more or less instantaneously, meaning that the residual stresses are lower.Note that this is from reading only - I've never worked in an iron foundry and theory may not reflect reality.As for seasoning grey cast iron (plane bodies) before machining, it doesn't make sense to this little black duck. There's a residual stress on the outside of the casting compared to the centre. This stays around for as long as the casting exists, and is exactly the same as case hardening (US term) in timber caused by excessive drying rate.To set a casting aside, let it warp under stress and then take away some of the surface is similar to cutting a case-hardened board and then hoping it stays straight.You'd have to machine the casting, set it aside for a period to stress-relieve, come back and finish machine it (may take two or three iterations if a lot of stress.) The cost of this must be prohibitive.Just some random thoughts.Cheers,eddie
Edited 7/20/2007 4:13 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Good day Eddie...
I did not know you were a metallurgist! Now I have a "go-to metallurgist" when I have a question. "Hey sweet-heart, I have to ask my metallurgist a question so I'll be back in about a month. BTW.. he's down in Australia..
The first time I try that, I will need a metallurgist to remove the lodged lead from her Colt .45 Commando from my back at the top of my drive-way. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I think most don't realize that cast iron is well.. cast iron and not a something like "Kryptonite" that even "super-man" doesn't mess with in the raw state. You won't see a crank-shaft made with cast iron in the machine top variety even though engine re-builders wish for that job security. :>)
Funny that you mentioned granite being basically quartz in another post. I have spent the afternoon shopping black granite. No problem finding polished scrap pieces the size I need here in Georgia as it is abundant. The problem I am having is I need a 3/4" hole counter-bored to 3/8".. then a 5/16" hole drilled through the center of that recess hole so I can recess a bolt head in it.
Nobody local has diamond drills in those sizes and if they do, they want $25 a hole and I have 8 to be drilled. $50 a square foot for granite and I need two square feet for the face fence I want to retro-fit on my jointer fence. $300 is not cost effective for me and out of the question. I could epoxy it on without re-enforcing with bolts.. but granite weights a ton as you know and I'm afraid to gamble on it holding under use?
I am considering Silestone from Dupont which is basically quartz laminated over a substrate and much lighter. Much easier to drill than the 2 mil granite (3/4") also, so the cost is not prohibitive. Do you have knowledge of Silestone usage down under? I have only become aware today as my local granite people steered me toward it.
Well.. I will let you get back to the tavern to mull over today's round of whatever you guys drink down under. Not that I would personally know one iota about that subject. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Read Zolton's post #34.. Common sense tells me he may be on to something with your low area around the throat plate. Where would the most friction be created over years of use but around the center of table where the stock rides.
Wear from friction may be a factor as cast iron is not a hard as a lot think and depends on grade. The harder you make it, the more difficult it is to cast.. so quality control of getting it just right comes strongly into play.
Ask a Chinese assembly line worker worker what quality control is and see what answer you get. Or better yet, dis-assemble a Chinese built AK-47 and look down the barrel in light. You will understand what lack of quality control really is. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Nice call Zolton.....
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
as a note they also have some of there fences on there jointers made out of granite at the show
a local compony has purchased there booth but all the granite tops and fences will return with them so i would guess it will be a bit befor we see if they make it to the street with them
The idea of heavy and flat sounds like a good thing and all, but will they come out with a magnetic version at some point?
I like the flexibility of magnetic featherboards and such and I'm not a scientist, but I don't think they will work on a granite surface.
Maybe I could epoxy a steel plate over the entire surface so I could still use them.
"I like the flexibility of magnetic featherboards and such and I'm not a scientist, but I don't think they will work on a granite surface."Perhaps you could find an old MRI machine at a hospital equipment junkyard and salvage the magnet to mount under the granite top? :)
BruceT
I hadn't thought of that but it's crazy enough it just might work. Of course every time I switch on the saw, and tools come flying at me from all over the shop, well, that could be a problem.Maybe I will switch over to plastic hand tools.When I go for my next MRI this fall, I'll check in the back for broken down units I can sneak out the back.Andy
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