Steel City Granite ?? Update..
I received a phone call this morning and got a few questions answered that have been ask about the new Steel City granite applications on table saw tops, jointer fences and band-saw tables. The caller was Scott Box, co-owner of Steel City Tool-works so what I relay might be considered a reliable source. You might say, “straight from the horse’s mouth”.
The question about wear in the miter gauge slot was one question I ask. The normal tab roller at the end of most standard miter gauges has been replaced with a black granite tab approximately 2″ wide. Instead of the wear being concentrated at two small points as the standard tab, the SC granite version was made much larger to distribute normal wear over a much larger area.
Consequently, Steel City does not recommend an aftermarket miter gauge that has the standard metal tab. If the miter bar is pulled back to the maximum travel distance with too much weight for it too support, the granite will chip where-as the SC miter will not. Both were tested extensively and this is the reported results.
BTW.. the larger granite tab on the Steel City miter bar is replaceable and will be stocked as a replacement part, even though the original is not expected to wear out under normal usage.
Concerning top breakage, chip and wear: ………………..
Only the absolute hardest grade of black granite has been chosen for the task. It is re-enforced with stainless steel inserts to even further black granite stability in it’s natural state. Stainless steel was chosen in advance to eliminate any rust problem that could potentially occur in the future if moisture did permeate to the inserts.
The black granite tops and fences have been extensively tested for chip and breakage. Yes.. granite can break just as cast iron. But.. dropping a miter gauge on it will not crack it.
During the lengthy testing, it required force from a ball peen hammer to chip it and chips can be repaired with epoxy. Steel City doesn’t recommend anyone buying their saw that intentionally will use a ball peen or sledge hammer (as someone mentioned) on their saw top and this includes their cast iron tops. They would prefer anyone even remotely considering it intentionally to buy from the competitor. :>)
The three (3) currently existing black granite fences for their jointer are currently being transported back to Steel City in Murfreesboro, Tn. One of those will be shipped from Steel City when they arrive to my shop for extensive field testing. I should have the fence within a couple of weeks.
It will mate to my current Steel City 8″ deluxe jointer by simply removing two attaching bolts, positioning the new granite fence and re-inserting the bolts. BTW.. those two bolts are for more than attachment as most probably don’t know. They were intentionally designed by Steel City to allow skewing of the fence for taper work. Most jointer fences can be skewed, but in a much more complicated way and they made it simple for the operator. They also have a 5 3/8″ tall and 48″ inch long fence on that jointer and one of the main reasons I purchased it.
My testing and resulting comments when done will be fair and based on what I conclude as truth. I am not an employee of Steel City and receive no compensation in any form from them. So.. what I conclude will not be a shilled opinion.
As Sargent Joe Friday used to say on Dragnet (an old L.A. detective TV show from the 50″s for the young)…………
“Just the facts ma’am.. just the facts”!
Have a good day All…
Sarge.. john thompson
Replies
Good morning...
I received the "black granite" jointer fence Tuesday morning from Steel City to field test. It arrived by "special courier" to my shop. The courier did not appear so "special" to me as he was wearing jeans and looked like any normal WW ready to so some work. He did actually take off my standard cast iron fence and replaced with the new black granite fence with an assist by me.
That was appreciated. The guy claimed he was Scott Box.. co-owner of Steel City, but you can't believe any of us "old farts", so I have to assume it was someone expertly disguised as Scott Box using those advanced Hollywood techniques? :>)
Regardless... I can tell you that the fence was "flat" and I mean "flat". With a 3' and 6" Starret straight edge, it was flat in every angle I attacked it from and I didn't leave anything to the imagination.
It was "flat".... pure flat...... I was told by the "special courier" that the granite can be milled by laser to within millionths of an inch of pure flat. We did some simulated, accidental pounding on it with items you might accidentally pop the table or fence with around the shop and it won't even produce a scar. It's hard and heavy also.
But.... time with the risk of accidental things that can happen around a real working shop will be the true test. And the time at my shop to see how "it" with-stands the "Test of Time" has arrived by none other than "special courier".
Those Steel City guys and gals seem to have a special knack for assisting and listening to what the customer has to say, IMO.... and that's a fact I have already discovered personally ! "Just the facts, ma'am.. just the facts"!
Sarge.. john Thompson
Hi Sarge,
Is the new fence extra tall or is it an exact replacement for the Steel City jointer? Also, do you know if a replacement fence will be available (tall like the one you have) for any of the Grizzly jointers? I wouldn't mind replacing mine if I could get it taller. Very cool. Give it the acid test for us.
Paul
Morning Paul...
The new fence is the same height as the Steel City 8" deluxe jointer which is 5 3/8" x 48". That's the tallest and longest fence among the competitors when I shopped it back in January. I'm guessing it still is and it one reason I chose it along with 5 Year Warranty.
A fence for competitors models is not in the works as far as I know? At least it was not discussed with me. But.. but.. I will get a more definite on that and hopefully by tomorrow.
Mr. Box was in Tuscaloosa, Al. today setting up a new dealer there. I don't know if he returned to base camp late this evening or spent the night there. I do have a direct communication with him though (two Dixie cups and a string.. just kiddin' ya) his cell phone.
If he has not considered it.. I will put a bug in his ear as I already have concerning the riving knife issue. All manufacturers have to have them in place by a given date and if someone jumps early on all models IMO... well kind of "the early bird gets the worm". There may be other issues on that as changing design from tilt arbor to vertical is not cheap by any means as personally stated by Mr. Box?
Get back to ya....
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge,
Let me see if I understand this....
Your putting in granite counter tops in the shop before SWMBO gets them in the kitchen....and your worried about riving knife? Hell, I'd hide all sharp objects....:)
Morning BG...
Sarge,Let me see if I understand this....Your putting in granite counter tops in the shop before SWMBO gets them in the kitchen....and your worried about riving knife? Hell, I'd hide all sharp objects....:) .... BG
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How would "I" know what she's got up there?... She doesn't allow me near the kitchen! And that would include her computer which sits just outside it. I wear a pair of "sneakers" as I type now!
How would "she" know what I have down there?... I don't allow her down in the " war bunker" as she's just not as cute wearing a flak jacket caked with saw-dust! Both somehow just seem to take the "fox" out of "foxy lady"!
So.... as they say, "All's fair in love and war"! And as I say, "it all works out tween the sheets"! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 8/2/2007 8:55 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks,
Paul
ps Probably not much of a market for a " universal " fence like that , but .....
A question was asked concerning Steel City producing a black granite fence for existing Grizzly jointers that was taller and longer than current stock. As per Scott Box's reply... "fourteen jointers were looked over just yesterday to see what it would take to retro-fit them with just such. Retro-fit for other makes is definitely a future consideration, but for the moment the pending patent on black granite use for WW table tops and fences is the focus of priorities". In other words the horse must be placed before the cart!
In a conversation this morning, I finally remembered to ask a question I felt was extremely important but kept overlooking. The question is:
What will be the Warranty on the new black granite tops and fences?
"10 Year Warranty on Black Granite and 5 Year on Machine".. SB
I'll address another issue I felt was important after a discussion about the miter gauge. The miter gauge slot is a standard 3/8" deep and 3/4" wide. The miter gauge has a 2" long piece of granite at the tip that replaces the standard metal roller on conventional machines. That roller is small and could break the granite if with-drawn to far back and excessive weight forced on it.
The new black granite miter's tip has been tested to see at what point it would crack the table slot if you withdrew the miter maximum. The edge of the tip toward the operator can be with-drawn to 2" from the end of the table slot. At that point excessive force was applied and the metal bar itself bent without damage to the slot.
But.. no further test was done to see just how far it would go toward the rear of miter slot without chip or crack as Steel City says common sense should negate you don't go there and take the chance.
I threw a bug in Mr. Box's ear this morning to add a "Red Line" at the 2" marks to help remind "we" WW'ers where the danger point begins as an auto tachometer has. His reply to that comment was, "That's an excellent idea"!
What will happen with that issue I don't know know? But.. I know he listened carefully and it is already in consideration from the resulting comments. That speaks volumes in itself too me as I know he understands what is a potential problem on my "blue-collar" end of the totem pole is also a potential problem at his end!
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 8/2/2007 12:10 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Mr, Sarge The next time your in his ear would you ask him pls. when we will be able to get their machines,with or without granite, over here in our little neck of the woods.Here being Ireland.
Rgds. Boysie, Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Top of the morning Boysie...
"Mr, Sarge The next time your in his ear would you ask him pls. when we will be able to get their machines,with or without granite, over here in our little neck of the woods.Here being Ireland".Rgds. Boysie, Slan Leat.
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That will be a pleasure sir and probably be the easiest task I have to perform on Monday morning (evening your time), Boysie. As a matter of fact, I'm retiring in 2 years.. so find us a cozy stone building with a hearth (enough room mind you for a showroom in front and wood shop in back) and you and I can bring the "City" to County Carlow. And not to be thought of by the local lads and lasses as narrow minded, we could deliver the "Steel" to Wicklow.. Wexford..Tipperary and Kilkenny all the way to Dublin! :>)
Actually I think I know the answer to that, Boysie. At this point the entire foundation for Steel City has not been laid to the point of solidification. Until recently there was no distributor in our state of Alabama when one was added in Birmingham. Just Thursday another was added in Tuscaloosa. And the list goes on in various states here as they are looking for "qualified" tool distributors, not just businesses that would be willing to sell the product.
Mr. Box made it crystal clear to me the first time I had a conversation with him that Steel City doesn't intend to sign a distributor that when you visit there store.. you know more about a particular tool than the salesmen that is there to assist you. And on top of that.. even with a knowledgeable sales staff, a track record of out-standing customer service had to accompany the knowledge.
I will ask the question and get back to you. I am sure there are reasons other than I mentioned (meeting European safety standards comes to mind first), but I will get it straight from the "horse's mouth" and quote what Scott Box actually has to say!
The above reasons (with the exception of what they seek in the way of distributors I mentioned) are just logical guesses on my part and do not reflect what he and his partners motives are.
Now.. the old man must go figure out how to get a 600 lb. mortiser aloft a 255 mm tall pallet safely down to earth alone. I drink seldom anymore, but once achieved a Killian's Red might be in order as it is "big iron" indeed and is not going to be over-matched in a "one man show".
But the old man has a trick or two up his sleeve... as most of us old men do! ha..ha..
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 8/4/2007 12:15 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 8/4/2007 12:16 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
SARGE, Thanks for your reply I have no doubt that you'll be true to your word and the question will be put.It looks fantastic machinery I hope to see it someday,
If you ever get the oppertunity to get over give me a shoutand I'll buy the creamiest pint oy Guinness you have ever seen and watch in envy as you lower it down. Alas my friend Itoo have to refrain from the lovely,lipsmacking,Blonde with the Black skirt, pint of necture, that you would get up at all hours of morning or night to keep it company, Did I mention that I use to love Guinness it kept me alive for years and now they say it could kill me. WHAT A WAY TO GO;
HA HA keep up the good work Sarge love your posts Regds. Boysie Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Evening Boysie...
Thanks for the kind words and indeed I will make the call Monday morning our (Eastern Standard as I am in Atlanta in the SE U.S.) time. There should be a post directed to you by noon our time if Mr. Box is in and I suspect he will be. Someone has to sweep the floor. :>)
Same scenario with me on the malt beverage scene. I suppose a man has to do what a man's wife tells him to do! ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Greeting Boysie... and any interested party outside the U.S.
I just spoke to Scott Box at Steel City Tool-works about the issue you raised of... will there be a market created outside the U.S.? An interesting conversation as I learned a few things I didn't know.
What I stated about establishing a firm foundation here in the U.S. was on target and a priority. The issue I mentioned of meeting European safety standards is also a factor but not limited to just those two.
All U.S. manufacturers have to have a riving knife on any new TS design by January of 2008. But.. the loop-hole is NEW DESIGN and not on a current design. Current design mandates are currently not until 2014. So... any riving knife appearance that might be added to a current machine will be because of a reason other than legal mandate.
An over-seas market for Steel City is already being entertained by them. They have already been contacted by a French concern highly interested in distribution to Central and Western Europe. But.. at this point the possibility is strictly entertained and no decision will be made and probably won't for at least another year.. as establishing a "foot-hold" on U.S. soil remains the main priority for the moment as we guessed.
Now a moth-balled submarine and Euro coastline as the old Rum-running days during our "prohibition" of alcohol earlier in the century. Nah.... I got enough trouble with Homeland Security and heavy iron being hauled in the back of my pick-up truck now. Don't won't to arouse the suspicions of those "good-ole-boys" from Inter-Pol. ha.. ha...
Slan Leat.... and good health to you, County Carlow and all the Gaelic origin lads and lasses from all Counties that make up the "proud" country you call Ireland!
Regards from County Gwinnett in the state of Georgia, U.S.A...
Sarge.. john thompson
SARGE, I knew you would come back with good news. Thats super I was talking to some woodworkers "real ones" who are very interested in Steel City Granite,and are looking forward to when it reaches this side of the pond.In the meantime i'll keep the old BLONDE IN THE BLACK SKIRT on tap for another while. Keep Well, Slan Agait Regds Boysie.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Sarge- I haven't been able to find the other thread(s) about SC and granite tops/fences- am I correct in assuming they are making them from granite to eliminate the flatness and corrosion issues?
Evening HF..
That's basically a big affirmative. Cast iron doesn't waste time rusting. My son got a few drops on a mortise machine table this afternoon I hadn't waxed yet with splash back from a garden hose washing his truck.. 2 hours latter I had to remove the rust. Also.. if it is not stress relieved properly, it can warp. The process to attain quality cast iron has to be heavily monitored from the get-go and there is still is no guarantee of a quality batch when done. One batch can contain various grades if the carbon is not dispersed evenly. It's kind of tricky, IMO. And the bottom line is it has become very expensive because of the process.
The black granite is also expensive here in the U.S. But.. there is a major reserve of it being quarried next door to the plant Steel City uses to produce there.. so as cheap as producing cast iron there. The idea was suggested by one of the Chinese while Scott Box was having a beer with them after that day's meetings.
Sort of a joking around.. but the guy who suggested it went and got a slab the next day just for fun and one thing lead to another. And now we see it coming to market. The granite can be laser ground to within a millionth of an inch flat.
And indeed the fence Scott Box brought me was flat.. very flat and it didn't rust with my splash back my son created this afternoon. So far.. so good!
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 8/5/2007 12:00 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
I had forgotten to add the stability part to my question and I know all about how fast cast iron rusts. A few years ago, I thought I had waxed my jointer before winter. I was wrong. Boy, was I wrong! Cleaned up well but wasted a bunch of time when I wanted to use it. "The granite can be laser ground to within a millionth of an inch flat."Think that'll be flat enough for some of the people here?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Morning Highfigh...
And I just got my eyes examined.. but obviously they made an error. I just realized the fine print in your sign-in says highfigh and not "highfish" as I had taken for granted all these years. I always wondered what the highfish signified.. now the thrill of wonder is gone.. gone away for good! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I don't think there will be any problem with stability. Granite is prevalent here in Georgia and I am aware of two homes that were built with it that have stood since before the civil war when Sherman burned Atlanta. Both just had to gutted and the inside re-built as I understand it.
Granite is heavy (dampening for vibration) and very hard as witnessed by millions that have it installed as kitchen counter-tops. I have heard no real issues with it's stability in those roles, maybe others could chime in here?
I have a HS friend that just retired as a pilot from Delta Air Lines. His wife had polished black granite installed in a 40' x 60' outside terrace patio surface around 20 years ago. She is quite the social southern lady and host large parties where it gets a ton of abuse from hundreds of guest. Foot traffic.. dropping of various things from drink glasses.. charis..gardening tools.. etc.
I called him two weeks ago after the granite tops was released to the public as my curiosity was aroused. He said that none of the granite squares had ever needed to be replaced. Not a definite but a good omen IMO never-the-less.
I don't think you will see granite chosen as the weapon of choice for a "wrecking ball" on a crane used by demolition companies. But.. you won't see cast iron as that choice either as both will crack under very heavy impact.
I don't have even the remotest thought of hitting my TS top.. jointer fence.. etc. with a sledge hammer intentionally as someone suggested. I can't imagine any purpose for using a sledge hammer over the top of my saw. If I did indeed have that scenario arise.. I would move the saw before the work began as anyone sensible would.
There could be some factor that comes to the surface that might be negative. But.. I am guessing that if that happens.. it will most likely occur before the well...........
Ten Year Warranty on Granite Top
has ended..That about says it all, IMO!
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
"I don't think there will be any problem with stability."I meant that cast iron is unstable if the tempering isn't done right. Granite isn't gonna move, any time soon. I use a granite tile for sharpening with silicon carbide paper. It's stiff, flat and great for what I'm using it. Whoever suggested hitting your top with a sledge hammer should do their own destructive testing. Sure, something hard and heavy could hit a granite top or fence at some point but generally, I don't know how useful that test would be. I will say that trying to remove more iron on a handplane using a drywall screen did a great job of creating a wide depression in the tile, though. Certain abrasives will definitely cut into it. Hey- granite has been used for sculptures for thousands of years and, unless some artifact robber or earthquake messes with them, they don't change much over time.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Afternoon HG...
"Hey- granite has been used for sculptures for thousands of years and, unless some artifact robber or earthquake messes with them, they don't change much over time".. hg
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I get the same unanamous consensus from the thousands of "tomb-stones" I have seen in grave-yards spread over 4 continents. Through rain.. sleet or snow.. the mail-man delivers without skipping a beat! :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
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