I had thought I heard that all of Steel City’s tools were made in the USA at one point. A while ago a friend and I were talking and wondering if they were actually made here, or just assembled here from parts out of Taiwan.
Now, I can’t even find mention that they were made in the US. Did I imagine that? Can someone enlighten me?
Is anybody making their tools here anymore? I had thought Steel City was the only one, until I saw some mention of an Asian manufacturing facility.
Replies
In all of the discussions here about Steel City, I've never seen any mention that their tools were manufactured in the US. If someone told you that, methinks they hit the jug first and dreamed it up, or it was picked up from some wild rumor on the internet. There's no way they could produce the tools they're selling at that price and make them in the US.
Actually, it would appear from the following blog entry that Steel City tools are made in China. If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down the the heading that says "The Idea for Granite."http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Exclusive+Steel+City+Will+Rock+Your+World.aspx
Morning Gene..
Most of Steel City's tools are made in China at this point with a few still being made in Taiwan. The company in Taiwan owns the factories in China as a lot of former Taiwan manufacturers are moving their operations to China for the cheaper labor.
Even though they are made in China... I would not let that influence you in deciding if it it good or bad. Go look at the Steel City line as many of us have already... the tools will speak for themselves as to the quality!
Sarge..
Hmm...Could have sworn I read American made somewhere. I'm too young for my brain to be playing these tricks on me. I thought the big deal with Steel City was that they were the newest/last major machinery to be made here.
My understanding of SC is that they are made up of a group of former Delta and other major tool company managers who were turned off by the growing conglomeration in the industry. If the interviews that I have read are accurate, they felt that the large, marketing focused behemoths were not servicing the needs of WWrs well- not listening to the customer. They also felt that the present companies were not innovating, but rather ladling on features of questionable value to end users.They wanted to found an innovative, more customer focused tool company that was more quick moving. Their initial product line and customer service suggest that they are moving in that direction. I don't think they committed to manufacture in the U.S.- but rather that they would not have a top down marketing strategy. Time will tell, but so far, I'm liking it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Former Delta and other major tool company managers is their weakness in my opinion. They are going to give folks what they think they need instead of what woodworkers really need. The only innovative thing they have is their granite top. They still are over 50 years behind European innovation. Just look at their mortiser. If they were really innmovative, they would have introduced a horizontal slot mortiser. The same with their table saws. As far as I'm concerned a cabinet saw is only half a saw. Sliders are the real saw.
Real innovation comes from woodworkers, not managers. It was Bill Biesemeyer who came out with the T-square based fence. Coincidentally Europeans had already come out with something similar long before he did. That's where Delta pilfered their Unifence from.
Bill Green had the idea for the Performax drum sander and none of the big companies thought it would go anywhere...now look. On the bad side folks have forgotten what a stroke sander is and in my 35 years of woodworking that is truly a great loss for the small shop and hobby woodworkers.
Rick, I think you're wrong there. It's apparent to me just from the design of the benchtop mortiser that they concentrate on "giving woodworkers what they need." Compare that mortiser with the others present on the market at the time it was introduced, and you'll see fat least two features that embarrased the competition. A large table, plus extensions, so we don't have to immediately build a support system for a brand new tool; easily adjusted hold-ins to hold stock against the fence, without cranking a clamp every time. The fact that it isn't a horizontal mortiser? -- well, that's basically a new tool. Write to them, suggest it, who knows, it may hit the market in a year or two.
Their tablesaws have relatively quick-release splitters. Their hybrid saws have trunnions attached to the frame instead of the table, and adjustments for 90° and 45° stops in the table top the way they should be instead of having to crawl inside the cabinet. The new hybrid on the horizon has a riving knife.
AFAIC, all of those features are ones woodworkers appreciate. Funny you should focus on the granite table top, because Knots members who posted in the thread related to that innovation didn't seem, as a group, to be all that excited about it. I know I'd rather have cast iron. The granite jointer fence on the other hand may be a winner.
Thse guys didn't go off and form their own company because they were tickled pink with the way Delta and WMH Tool Group were running their manufacturing concerns. They want to do things differently, and based on my experience with them and reports coming from Sarge and others, I believe they've made important improvements and given the competition a new and higher bar to jump over.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Steel City put a split head on their 17" DP. That feature has been on industrial machinery for years as it is the only way to insure a long quill travel can be adjusted down the road with the extra wear that long quill travel imposes.
Innovate = To introduce (something new)... Webster dictionary
Perhaps Innovate is not the best way to describe what Steel City has done in the majority of cases with their current products. The Black granite was an innovation indeed. But... the adding of features that WW's have clearly stated for years would be an improvement to what they were being offered by U.S. manufacturing concerns is not truly an innovation, IMO.
It is nothing more than initiating an effort by some gentleman that do understand how machines work to see that those obviously needed features got there on the base model. That.. in lieu of knowing it would be a better mouse-trap if present but doing nothing about it as the consumer had little choice other than to accept it as it was.
SC added heavy double springs on their BS's and beefed the upper case to support those. They put a stock dust collection system on that saw that is the best of the best stock systems. They made the guide bar micro-adjustable. They will add a granite top soon which will be the flattest of the flat.
Their Table Saws have very beefed up trunnions and mounts. My Uni-saw is quite fragile in comparison. The fence is about the slickest of the slick. Riving knives are on the way mandatorily for all (eventually) and that is not a European innovation. All you have to do is look at some of the early "big iron" machines produced in the U.S. years ago.
A slider is a excellent innovation... but with that said, takes up a tremendous amount of space and puts the saw in a $4000 + bracket. Just what we U.S. hobbyist want to hear. That doesn't make a U.S. saw useless IMO. It just makes it less "state of the art" and affordable to the hobbyist who cannot justify the price or create room for the foot-print.
Bench-top mortisers have always been notorious for poor clamping and small tables. So... you just purchase a floor model with good clamping and a larger table that moves from left to right and front to rear. And you pay the extra $700 to cut a sqare or rectangular hole. Or a new slot mortiser would perhaps be the trick.
Lets see... with my new slider.. shop addition to contain it and the new slot mortiser I have to make a $15,000 investment. That is about $3000 more than I have invested in all the current tools that are in my shop and my shop is not bare after 36 years. Can I justify that expense?
The answer is no... but I can justify what I currently have and I most certainly can appreciate a few guys who knew that what I can justify have added some features that I have known for years should have been there in the first place to solidify my purchase.
So... I have made the modifications that I felt were required in the past to get my machines to where what Steel City introduced from the git-go is now. As a hobbyist I can appreciate their effort to do so as the others seem to have conveniently over-looked these fundamental matters. And.. kept the machines in an affordable price range a hobbyist can more easily justify than a commercial concern where pure efficiency is a matter of profit or loss.
Thanks Steel City for doing what should have been done long ago even though that is not truly innovative. But.. I do feel you are still looking for new innovations that I can deem affordable. I believe that based on what you have delivered so far.
Sarge..
Edited 12/27/2007 2:05 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 12/27/2007 2:05 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 12/27/2007 2:07 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks for pitching in here, Sarge. You, of all people, have the first-hand experience to describe the Steel City approach thoroughly. I knew the drill press was a big "cut above" but couldn't remember the details.
I went to Sumner Woodworks just before Christmas and checked out the hybrid saw that's currently on the market. They only had one floor model left, as lots of sales for Christmas. The sales guy suggested I get the better of the two fences (I think it's called "industrial"?) and I probably will do that. Not sure about waiting for the new hybrid with the riving knife. It's been redesigned to accomodate the granite top (I would opt for cast iron), and I'm a little nervous about jumping into a brand new design at the very first production run. Any thoughts??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The local (Canadian) SC rep told me that he suggested an improvement to a BS based on feedback he got at a woodshow. Head office called back 3 days later to tell him it would be adopted. Obviously it'll take longer to reach the customer, but try to get any response at all from Delta. SC machines seem to be a work in progress.
Jim
"SC machines seem to be a work in progress." Most all the hobby-level tools on the market are "works in progress" -- it's just that some companies pretty much forgo the progressi part, LOL! It's my personal opinion that the presence of Steel City is pushing some of the other makers off their fat behinds and into some kind of action. When I went to Sumner to look at table saws, I cast a glance at the benchtop mortiser display, fond memories of the day I bought mine. Lo and behold! there was another brand of mortiser with the large table and roller-style hold-ins as stock equipment. Hmmmmmmm, wonder where they got that idea? Wonder why it wasn't there 18 months ago?
"Head office called back 3 days later to tell him it would be adopted." That report matches a couple other I've seen. They respond quickly when something is brought to their attention.
Not at all saying they walk on water, or that every one of their tools is perfect, but they've got alot more going for them than the old fogey-companies, as far as I'm concerned. And I intend to support them with my $$ when their tool is in the top two choices.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I for one am anxious to see how the granite components hold up. And I'am thinking that the granite tops are pretty "Green" compared to the amount of energy used and pollution generated to produce the same item in cast iron. True?Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Hiya, Bruce. It may be that the granite tops are more "green" -- carbon footprint and all that (which is an increasingly weighted factor in my decisions these days). I'd be interested in knowing from where the granite comes also. Sarge may have told us, don't remember, but perhaps in the good ol' U.S. of A? Of course, if it did come from here, it'd might be shipped to Taiwan or China for assembly or machining or whatever, something I don't cotton to -- Boeing's doing enough of that with these new planes their building. Talk about a huge carbon footprint!
Ah, I digress. There are two main reasons I don't want granite. One, magnets won't stick to it and two, my Incra miter gauge wouldn't fit it. Deal-killers, those. There was a whole thread on it here at Knots, and people were all worked up over chipping the granite. Nah, I've never dropped anything on my table saw that would accomplish that (except my husband, LOL. He fell out of the shop "attic" or off the ladder or something when I wasn't there. I came home to find his footprints on my saw table. ROFL!)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 12/29/2007 1:08 am by forestgirl
OUCH !! No standard miter slot ? That smells like the shores of Lake Erie. I wouldn't want to loose my Incra either.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Thought I'd better go back and refresh my memory about the miter slot. Here is Sarge's post, wherein he brought us answers (from Scott Box, Steel City co-owner) to some questions that came up:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=36953.1
Oh, and here's the first discussion about the granite features:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=36862.1
Sounds like it may be a "standard" slot, but not recommended to use our miter gauges in it due to possible break-out of the granite. Take a read and see if you think my interpretation is correct.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 12/29/2007 7:14 pm by forestgirl
Your interpretation is correct, FG. The slot in the SC TS black granite is made for a SC miter bar that has a wider support piece that rides in the groove of the miter slot. It had to be done that way to re-enforce the bar and avoid stress. I saw it pulled toward the operator almost to the front of the table and then we forced it down. It held well with no problem what-so-ever, but I still suggested to Mr. Box that they add a red-line just to remind you to not pull it back that far and then apply downward pressure.
But.. for those that have the Incra or similar... it's a no go unless a design change was considered and made as I did alert Mr. Box to the fact that many had ask about that specifically.
So.. you are correct and incidentally.. when you asked about this in the recent post, I had forgotten about the issue with your Incra totally. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi, Sarge. OK, what you say above gives me doubt that I interpreted the older post correctly. So, I'll ask more specifically -- regardless of whether one should or should not put a non-SC miter gauge in that slot, is the slot itself "standard" or of a different size??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The tip of the SC bar or part that is like the little metal rollers on your Incra and a standard miter gauge is 2" wide on the SC and rides in a slot that has to be 2" wide inside a 3/4" miter slot. So... the slot is 3/4" wide but the groove at the bottom of the slot is much wider.
I was told that an aftermarket won't work in the miter slot. I did not specifically ask if it would fit and the small miter rollers would be just a threat to the granite if strained... or it just would not fit period.
He did mention that it was designed the way it was because the small tips on a standard miter would be a threat to chip it with their concentrated point of pressure if too much was applied with the gauge pulled back to far near the extreme end of the table. Again.. just not if a standard would fit in the slot period.
But... he did say that a standard won't work and I would take it to mean a standard won't work and respect that statement coming from someone that played a hand in the design.
BTW... same question but a different angle would be: Could you take the miter head and fence off the Incra and mount it on the SC miter bar? I don't know the answer to that one but I will when they become available so I can physically see both the bar and an Incra guage at the same time. That would tell the story but anyone that would not want to dismantle the Incra from stock should fully disregard the question!
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 12/30/2007 11:57 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
"...but anyone that would not want to dismantle the Incra from stock should fully disregard the question!" That wouldn't bother me a bit. Would probably have to drill/tap the SC bar. CAn't remember how the Incra goes together there, but nearly certain some change would have to be made.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Evening FG...
It was just something to came to mind at the moment, but my curiousity has been aroused on the issue to a certain degree. And you know what that usually means. ha.. ha...
As soon as I have access to the SC granite saw miter gauge, I should be able to tell one way or the other if the possibly exist. I am thinking that the possibly does exist as I haven't got many tools I haven't modified to some degree in one form or fashion yet.
I suppose we shall see..
Regards..
Bruce..
See post 30 for clarification if the link from FG was not clear... which it should be...
Regards...
Sarge..
I believe your assumption is correct about the miter gauge. But feel that the granite will be the wave of the future. When retired those saw tops could always be fittingly engraved with RIP for continued use by the former owner. Maybe you can take it with you ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
As far as the "Industrial fence"... the gentleman advising you was spot on. I love the Biesemeyer on my Uni-saw (after I built a home-made short fence to fit over it which allows me both worlds of short and long on the few occasions I use the long) but... the only fence I would even consider over it is the Industrial. And the "why" is.. it is well designed.. positive and if you release the lock handle and give a slight nudge toward the end of the rail you better have someone there to catch it or run to catch it before it slides off the end of the rail. "Slick" design to say the least.
I could not be more pleased with my black granite fence on my Steel City 8" jointer. It's still flat and will be 200 years from now. Not a speck of rust has appeared on the granite and it has not seen one minute of maintenance. :>).... And I have bumped it pretty hard with the tips of stock in the obstacle course called my shop. I can't imagine anything but a deliberate blow of concentrated velocity will chip or crack it.
But.. if you are more comfortable with cast iron, then so be it as not all will leap to black granite before it has been proven in the trenches. And no doubt, it is heavy which makes lifting it more of a task but adds more mass to the machine for vibration purposes.
Your not wanting to jump into a new concept on the first attempt is not bad logic and has been mine for quite a while. But.. after going over the entire line of Steel City at the IWF when it was first introduced (and all if it was a first production run at that point)... I took the gamble with the 18" band-saw. I went over every inch and had already identified the few quirks it had before I dropped the cash.
There was nothing major.. simply an enlargement of the thumb screws and replace the lower guide holder Allen head set screw with a M8 thumb-screw. Cut the guide bar safety guide off just above the upper bearings to get a positive view as it was not necessary to begin with. Simply a liability issue necessary to get it into the U.S. Same issue Mini Max.. etc.
Perhaps it would be better for you to wait and see it in person as I have always made the point that a machine will speak more highly of itself than words coming from another view-point. Or it will show you what's not right about it as it is difficult to hide flaws if you know what to look for.
So... strictly up to you if you are not overly concerned with having a riving knife at this point. I ran one for 5 years and got a fantastic deal on a larger saw that did not. It has not slowed down one project for me personally as the riving knife or blade stop is not the total solution to safety now or never will be. Those that would depend on those features and dis-regard operator awareness and technique as the key to most accidents are naive IMO.
Love to be able to tell the right thing to do here... but the right thing is what you feel comfortable doing as you are the operator and the operator is solely responsible for control over every situation that occurs in their shop..
Regards and good luck...
Sarge..
"Love to be able to tell the right thing to do here... but the right thing is what you feel comfortable doing...." That's OK Sarge, I'm not in a huge hurry (Christmas wrapping still scattered in the shop, LOL) and I have to sell a few more of my "spec tools" (tools I bought for resale) before the budget is complete. The hardest thing is deciding whether to give up the RBI Hawk scroll saw I bought for.....(drum roll please)......$125! I hardly ever scroll, but what a deal. The bulk of the new-saw fund was provided by the $5 Inca saw that brought $700 when sold <big grin here>. Well worth the time I put into restoring it!
I figure people will start buying again in February, maybe the new SC saw will be out by then. In the meantime, the horses are keeping me hopping, so to speak. The guy at Sumner was saying the redesign of that saw was pretty significant. Something about having dovetail ways for the assembly to ride on?
Interesting what you've said about the smoothness of the Industrial SC fence. I was checking out the Craftsman hybrid today at local Sears. That particular model had the Biesemeyer fence, they must have not assembled it very well, because it was hard to move, relatively speaking. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I don't have time to spend with my factory re-co DW 721 (yet) that a friend (DW rep here in Atlanta got for me), but I would hold onto the $125 RBI Hawk unless your personal economics just hit rock bottom. What is today.. is not necessarily what it will be tomorrow.
Regards...
Sarge..
Rick-I agree totally, I think that the major tool makers are far behind the Europeans. Just looking at the riving knife issue. They are standard on all European machines. I also agree with your statement that the stroke sander is the greatest loss. I have had the opportunity to have a stroke sander in my school shop for the last 2 years. And it is a great machine.Kaleohttp://www.kaleosworkshop.com
Edited 12/27/2007 5:21 pm by Kaleo
Horizontal slot mortisers were made in the 1800s. The Shakers also had tablesaws with sliding tables.
Edited 12/27/2007 5:19 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
You and I disagree about the definition of "innovative".When a company bundles useful features on its tools at a price many WWrs can afford, I consider that innovative. I own the SC DP and 18" BS. I find them to be capable, well designed, precise and provided with useful features- DC on the BS, 5 year warranty, etc. To me, that is unique for a line of tools in their price range.I agree that European TS are more advanced than their NA cousins (with the exception of SawStop). But I don't cut many sheet goods- and I can't see why I would need a $4k slider to handle solid stock- most of which I cut on my BS without difficulty.As for a slot mortiser- I've used both a horizontal mortiser (which was a pain in the ___ to set up precisely) and the vertical- and I tend to cut my mortises with a chisel and a mallet.I don't impose my working methods on others- if I ran a production shop, and cut many sheet goods for kitchen cabs or bookcases, I would have to adopt different methods. You on the other hand seem to be saying that because you prefer or tend to use a slider, or a horizontal slot mortiser, SC can't be any good because they don't manufacture one. Seems like a fairly narrow minded view to me.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Dont you think that Mr. Box and SC cronies went into business for themselves because they wanted to make more money and be more successful?
Would you go into business to simply help your customers and meet their needs. cmon man--they went into business because they new they could be more successful on their own.
dont you think so?
"they went into business because they new they could be more successful on their own." The only reason they would be able to be more successful, IMHO, is because they are more responsive to woodworkers' desires about machinery design, warrantees, etc., than the "big two" (Delta, WMH). The market is spread way too thin for a Delta- or Jet-clone to take much market share. What I sensed all the way along, from the point that Steel City was first introduced, was a frustration with the slow-moving, staus-quo-is-OK, culture of Delta, Jet, Powermatic, and a mission to be better, more responsive, more (dast I say it?) innovative, more connected with the woodworker customer.
Of course they want to make money and be successful, that's what business is all about, but it doesn't deny them the possible motivation to be better than the competition by meeting our desires for better-designed machines with great customer service (which I have experienced personally).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 12/28/2007 12:23 pm by forestgirl
It would be nothing less than naive to think that anyone took a gamble of investing a large amount of money to open a new business would not have a profit as their main priority. Of course they wanted to make money as that's why you go into business as FG has already pointed out. If you don't make money.. you won't be in business very long and you lose the capital investment you made. Gambling carries risk!
Do you suppose that LV.. LN.. etc., etc. is in business from the goodness of their heart and is only concerned in presenting top line merchandise to the consumer with service after the sale regardless of how much they make or lose? I didn't think so.....
Priority in any business is to make a profit. But... that means that in an already established, highly competitive field as WW machines... you have to do something creative to grab a foot-hold and establish a reason that the consumer would chose "you" over the competition that is already present and is available on about every street corner.
Steel City simply did what should already have been done by those other companies already making a profit but... did it better from the on-set to grab your attention. Otherwise they become just another player with nothing new to add and sway you to them. And that large investment they have to make for initial start-up is "gone with the wind" with Scarlett sitting scratching her head... wondering "what went wrong" as we are doing the same thing as the others do! duh....
Since Steel City came on the scene.. I have seen more changes being made in Delta and Jet than I have seen in the last 20 years. Perhaps the consumer will benefit as it appears the competition has awaken from a 20 year sleep after the stock-holders meeting proclaiming that profits have gone down and we are losing a portion of the market-share.
HELLO.....
That's my buck-fifties worth..... keep the change
Sarge..
.
Edited 12/28/2007 1:08 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"Perhaps the consumer will benefit as it appears the competition has awaken from a 20 year sleep after the stock-holders meeting proclaiming that profits have gone down and we are losing a portion of the market-share." Amen to that. They mightn't have lost much share yet, but if the Upper Echelon Guru's can still read (as in "the writing on the wall") they know what's on the horizon with regard to market share if they don't start making some changes.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dom"Would you go into business to simply help your customers and meet their needs."For what other reason would you go into a business?You imply in your post that making a profit is somehow incompatible with satisfying customers. Nothing could be further from the truth.The Steel City team could not have attracted capital unless they could show a competitive return on that capital, which ultimately would have come from meeting customers needs BETTER than existing offerings.Ultimately, in the long run, shareholder value comes from customer value; and only from customer value.Regards,Hastings
While all this talk of commerce is interesting....I bought their portable planer. There were loose bits of metal left over from machining caught in the heavy coat of shipping grease that it took hours to clean off. All it would have taken is for ONE small shaving to make it onto a piece of wood, and ruin both the wood and the blades.
Manufacture and origen are what they are. Basic quality control in the manufacturing process would, as of now, be a real innovation.
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