As one of the former employees of Delta/Porter-Cable in Canada that was let go by B&D during the merger of the two companies, I say Good Luck to Steel City!! Just knowing the people that are getting involved with this company makes me root for them. The best part about Delta/PC was the people, from customer service right up to the president of the company. I am looking foward to reading about Steel City kickin the crap out of Delta for a long time
Cheers
Replies
I wish them the best too, but in this tight internet-driven market, they've got an uphill battle, me suspects.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm at IWF covering the show for FineWoodworking.com. I just posted a story on our Web site about Steel City, which includes an audio interview with company VP Scott Box.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=26632
If anyone has questions they'd like me to ask Scott while I'm here at IWF, post below and I'll stop by their booth. They're pretty accessible; I even had a good conversation with the head of their manufacturer facility in Taiwan, who should also be available for questions.
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Live From Atlanta
Matt,
Press them for a 12" to 16" combination planer/jointer under $4,000.00. Now that is what the world needs!
Ask them when they plan on intrducing a horizontal slot mortiser and a couple of panel saws. I don't see anything they are doing at the moment anything special except for the contractor saw that adjusts the blade alignment like a cabinet saw and that's a pretty minor feat in my book. European companies are years ahead of the pack with combo machines and tooling technology.
Hey Rick,
IN my interview with Scott Box, he said the company was planning about eight new products a year for the next three years, but he was tight-lipped about what those products would be. He did mention that they've got a few upgrades to their tablesaw offerings in the works but he didn't give specifics.
It appears that the first hurdle Steel City had to overcome was just getting out into the market with the lowest-common demoninator tools that woodworkers need. TO that end, they've done a pretty comprehensive job.
From there, they need to innovate with stand-out features, and broaden the product line. It will be interesting to watch how that unfolds over the next few years.
- Matt
The features will come....keep in mind that any innovation that these guys were workin on for the past 4-5 yrs are now coming to market with Delta. Patients are a wonderful thing!! The products that they are releasing are just a starting point so they can get some dealers on board with a full lineup. Then you will see the innovation - the fact that they are a small company will let them come to market much quicker with new product
I'm encouraged by their presence and am putting off my 8" jointer purchase until I can get a look at what they have to offer. I hit their website and the dealer network will not be announced until after the show.
I'd like to know if they'll produce a table saw with a riving knife and quick-release blade guard. To set themselves apart from the crowd, they could also put it on a contractor saw that adjusts miter-slot-to-blade by screws instead of 2x4's and a hammer.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey Forestgirl,
I asked them specifically about the riving knife and really didn't get a straight answer. I think they have to start from scratch to design a saw that can support it, because all of the existing designs are patented. But like I said earlier, they have three more tablesaws in the works so I'd be surprised if they didn't address the safety issues with one of those saws...
- Matt
They could really set themselves apart by incorporating such things. Thanks for keeping us posted.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I haven't studied their offerings that closely, but from what I have read around here, there doesn't seem to be much that is distinctive about their products or marketing.Some years ago, for instance, most of the MFG's here started the mad rush to get their products on the shelves of the home centers. Prices came down, but so did quality (at least perceived quality). Festool correctly perceived, I think, a niche at the high end of the market, and they seem to be doing very well. I'm not arguing the same strategy for Steel City necessarily, but it would be interesting to know whether or not they have a defined and perceptible marketing strategy. It seems to me there are a variety of interesting tools in the European market, that for some reason are not sold here. I am thinking of Mafell in particular. Aside from the big (and expensive combo machines), there seem to be a variety of other sorts of combo tools that have not been marketed in the US. And I wonder why. Festool gave me a specific reason to buy their products (aside from their snob appeal), and so far, I don't even have a clue why I should be looking at Steel City tools -- except that they are marketed by some nice guys who were screwed by B&D. I would also think there would be a brisk market for a planer/jointer combo (like the old Inca); you could ask, but I doubt if they would tell you if such a machine is one their radar screen.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Right now and for some time, the Euro to dollar exchange has probably kept most European equipment from being even a little cost competitive in the US market. Festool has never been attractive to me because of the high price and the tool reviews have not put them on a pedestal that makes me believe they are worth that much extra money. For example the Bosh jig saw seems to win the tool test regardless of the competition. If that is the jig saw that cuts the straightest and runs the smoothest, I have a hard time paying double for one that's in second place.
The whole power tool market has me a bit confused right now. For years Delta and Powermatic were the premium brands in the US for stationary tools and were US made. I own a number of US made Delta tools and didn't mind paying a premium for them, they were obviously better in quality and construction. For example the old Delta/Rockwell 14" band saw was the standard for this size and everything else was a knockoff. Now with Delta and Powermatic moving manufacturing to the Pacific Rim, they seem to have lost the "quality" advantage they had over the competition such as Jet, Grizzly, etc. In fact, if you look at the 8" jointer review in FWW a few months ago, the Delta did very poorly in the dimensional checks as the tool came out of the box. The table wasn't as flat or as straight as the other jointers which had been manufactured in the Pacific Rim for a number of years. So is Delta on the up hill side of the learning curve when it comes to production in Asia? There doesn't seem to be a US made 8" jointer anymore, so the choices come down to who has the best quality for the best price in an Asian made tool.
From what I can tell from the web site for Steel City Tools, they are going to fall into this category. Nothing looks special, in fact the hand wheels on the table saw look very familiar, Yorkcraft perhaps. Are we getting tools from the same castings from the same factories, just different paint jobs? Is US manufacturing THAT expensive that you can't make equipment here any longer? If Delta and Powermatic are going to be made in a plant side by side with Yorkcraft (see the 8" jointer review) what on earth makes B&D think I'm stupid enough to pay a $500 premium for the Delta paint job?
I wish the folks at Steel City the very best, but if they are offering another "me too" product from Asia manufacturing facilities then it's going to come down to who gives the biggest bag (best dimensional tolerances) for the buck. May the best man win!
That was my point, basically. If Steel City is going to the trouble and expense of producing a line of tools, there had better be something about them that is distinctive. So far, I haven't seen anything that even makes me want to look seriously at their machines, much less buy one. That's where I think Festool was very shrewd. They wanted to sell to the high end of the market, but engineered the tools with a variety of attractive innovations (dust collection, the guide systems, etc.) to insure that everyone would at least look at what they have done. Whether or not the tool is worth the cost they are asking is another issue.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I guess I would have to see their product first, before judging it one way or another. I think the cost of production pushed many heavy tool manufacturers offshore (General is still made in Canada, I believe).Many competing brands are made in the same or in similar factories, but there is more of a difference than the paint. The quality assurance, specifications and inspections differ. Companies (like B&D) that just offshore hteir production to the lowest bidder often have the poorest results. I think one reason Grizzly's jointers have improved in quality, finish and features over the past 5 years is that they have paid more attention to these issues.Having said that, I wonder what $70/barrel oil will do the Asian business model. The cost of transport has to rise, and it is possible that some domestic operations will become cost competitive for heavy, commodity goods, particularly those made on semiautomatic lines. The Japanese have been building an awful lot of well received cars in the U.S. for more than 20 years. If Toyota can manage it, perhaps tool manufacturers will figure it out.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"Having said that, I wonder what $70/barrel oil will do the Asian business model."Probably not much. It's awfully cheap to send cargo across the Pacific by ship because of the economies of scale. Higher oil costs will have far more effect on air travel."The Japanese have been building an awful lot of well received cars in the U.S. for more than 20 years. If Toyota can manage it, perhaps tool manufacturers will figure it out."Japan moved production to America because the labor cost in Japan is higher than it is in America. Basically, they offshored their production to a cheaper country, which also happened to be where most of that product was sold. American labor rates are still far higher than Chinese rates, so it's unlikely production will move away from China any time soon, and if it does, it'll probably go to Africa first.
"To set themselves apart from the crowd, they could also put it on a contractor saw that adjusts miter-slot-to-blade by screws instead of 2x4's and a hammer." I'm with you FG, but I think they'd be better served skipping the outboard motor altogether and introducing a hybrid for budget conscious hobbyists. I'd like to see cabinet mounted trunnions with the cast blade shroud instead of connecting rods too....then the alignment would be a snap.
Much better idea, hopefully Matt will pass it along!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Matt,I would ask that you let the Steel City guys know that there is at least one Knots member who applauds their decision to distribute through a local dealer network. I think that's as key to their success as product selection, performance etc. I'm not shopping right now, but if they have a dealer in my area, I'll definitely pay a visit and take a look.
Hi Matt I'd appreciate it if you mentioned to Scott that I think they did a heck of a job with the Sears 22124. I'm a little squeemish about the nameplate, but the saw itself is impressive.Thanks,
Scott
Edited 8/25/2006 6:11 pm ET by Knotscott
I'm interested in innovation and quality more than tools limited by an established price-point. I would rather seem them offer a handful of high-quality tools than a multitude of tools that are essentially indistinguishable from those offered by the competition.
For example: If they offer a Powermatic 2000-like saw, at least they'll be on the leading edge of the wave; if they offer one with a slider and the SawStop mechanism, they'll be ahead of the curve; if they offer these innovations through a network of providers who know what service after the sale means, and they prove reliable, they'll take the market by storm.
I'd like to see them introduce a drill press designed to address the needs of woodworkers.
I'd like to see them introduce a multi-axis router/shaper that can multi-task: shaping raised panels and cope & stick joints, milling mortises & tenons... you get the idea.
My question for them would be: Do they intend to carve out a new niche for themselves (which is essentially what Festool has done), serving the needs of so-called high-end woodworkers (aka your readership), or will they be just another cost-competitive also-ran?
Thanks,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I just got my latest issue of pop ww (sorry Tauton), and saw a full page glossy ad for their new stuff. Looks like it's close to prime-time. I'll be interested to see what they do.
From what I've read, it appears that Steel City's business model may have much more to do with giving local dealers incentive to push their brand (with no on-line competition and tight price control). They're presumably going to local retailers and saying Steel City can guarantee a bigger margin on every one of their tools sold than competing brands (consumers won't find cheaper pricing on-line). In order to convince retailers to jump on board, they're coming to market with a reasonably full line-up of basic tools so retailers selling just Steel City can offer one-stop shopping to their customers.
The trade-off appears to be little innovation in their first batch of tools (it's got to be hard to hit the ground running with innovative products of many different types). Who knows about planned later models. But, if they come in with non-descript tools selling at a premium with no brand history/loyalty, Steel City may be in for a slow start. To me, it seems like they may have failed to pick between being very price competitive (Grizzly) or very top-shelf innovative (Festool). Instead, it appears they've decided to get retailers excited about margins (charging more for more-or-less the same old tools). Maybe, I'm wrong but that's what I read between the lines. I would expect maybe one product distinguishing factor per tool (rust-proof tops) and a significant price premium.
Matt
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