Hey all,
I was wondering how some of you handle yourselves at a walk-through with a potential customer. Almost all of my work is through word of mouth, so I usually have an edge up when I show up to meet a new client but that isn’t always enough. Recently, I have been building a lot of built-ins for tv’s. Often, people want to fill a wall, top to bottom, with shelves and cabinets. Sometimes, they don’t want to pay for it.
The tricky part is the pricing. I keep stellar numbers when it comes to hours, materials, overhead, etc… and I now have a really good idea what things cost. I am NOT trying to make a killing. If I do well on a job I am looking at 25 – 30 an hour. Still, my potential clients often get sticker shock when they get the estimate and act as if I am trying to rip them off! Often, people don’t even get back to me which I find offensive. Granted, it’s expensive, but shouldn’t it be understood that custom work comes at a premium?
My question is, what kind of conversation do you have at the first meeting. I would love to save the time it takes to make a detailed drawing and estimate if the customer isn’t interested in that kind of quality. There are all kinds of red flags, such as “simple”, “pottery barn”, and “we’ve been thinking about this for years”. Still, I always make a drawing and estimate. I would say about a third of the time is is for naught.
I know that one of my problems is that I always want work. Another is that I never give a ballpark at the first meeting. But I could… I have a pretty good idea what things cost by the square foot, it’s just that I don’t want to box myself in. I have asked about the budget for the project but this never comes off very well. People seem put off. It’s not like it’s a renovation which requires such a question, it’s a few cabinets and people think I am trying to milk them. Still, how do I weed out the wastes of time without coming off harsh?
So, assuming that I stay busy enough that I can turn away a job or two, how do I figure this one out? How do you tell a client that is fishing around for the low bid that it isn’t worth your time to get back to them? I know some people charge for estimates but I don’t want to have to do that.
I attached a typical job as a drawing and the finished product. I charged $5700 which breaks down to about $55 a square foot or $380 a linear foot. It’s sprayed laquer, has four pull-outs, flat panel doors, cup hinges, clear maple on the insides, etc… I try to charge $35/hour which is an attempt to cover my overhead. Is this reasonable to you?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Justin
Replies
I'll have to post the pictures later. It's not letting me attach right now...
There we go...I think
If the client genuinely has sticker shock, then you are doing something wrong from the beginning and wasting your own time. Either make it known that you only do fine work and build up a more 'quality' impression, or lower your standards--sadly, I wonder if many customers would really notice the difference in the work. If you are working by WOM then they may expect that they are getting a deal from the beginning, so that could be a problem.
It's hard when most people buy manufactured furniture and cabinets. I had one of those compliments the other day: "I've seen stuff that looked just like that going on the van and Carl Johnson's for five or six hundred dollars!"
I say, have confidence, and expect to weed out some potential customers. You don't want them all. Whether this means ballparks, a brochure or portfolio, charging for consults or drawings, or advertising, is up to you.
Brian
Thanks Brian,I hear you. Word of mouth usually works in my favor as far as I can tell. But, you're right, I need to do something to weed out the rest.Thanks,
Justin
Justin
It sounds like you are attracting the wrong clientelle for the work you want to do. I remember when I first got started, over 20 years ago. I was an eager beaver, and wanted every job. I took it personally to sell every customer something. I did alot of jobs that I wouldn't even touch now.
I'll say this. I have no idea how long you've been at it, but it takes a long time to build up a good name. After you've developed a large list of happy customers, the referrals come in, and your previous customers want more work done, too.
I charge between $800 to $1000 per linear foot on built ins, and I'm backed up until July. It wasn't always that way. I remember being asked if I could build a chest of drawers for cheaper than what a guy saw it for sale in the furniture store for. Don't waste your time with these people.
You need to be able to seperate the sweat from the $hit, so to speak. Point blank, I ask people right away what their budget range is. Believe me, if they are a referral, they know exactly what your previous customer charged. If you try to compete with Ikea and the furniture stores, which is not custom work, you will be out of business before you start. If they won't tell you, then you need to get creative quickly. I would instantly come back with "IF I don't know what your budget is, I have no idea how to design the (wall unit, entertainment center, table, whatever....) to fit your needs. I've designed pieces in this size that were from $6K to $18K. I can do alot of great work with an open canvas, but I need to know what size canvas I'm working with." Believe me, they'll tell you right away if their even in your ballpark.
Sell yourself, and your quality. This is custom work, and you are your only marketing representative. Be prepared to show them pictures of your work, and be prepared to give them referrals to your happy customers. Every job I sell, I make it clear that there may come a time when I need to show the job, in person, to another customer. I've never had a problem. People love to show off their stuff.
When all is said and done, you need to create a value for the job higher than what you are charging. When I'm through with a presentation, and if I've done my job correctly, the customer is ready for $1300.00 per linear foot. When I inform them that it's only $1000.00, then they are happy.
It all comes down to your ability as a salesman to sell yourself. Of course, your work needs to reflect the quality that you sell.
Jeff
As a customer I use that first contact to determine if we're together or can get together on pricing. If I want a $10,000 table and you're selling $1,000 tables - it won't work. The reverse is true also. One of the things I personally like and will ask for is some type of brochure with pictures, brief description and price. That helps me determine fairly quickly if we'll be able to work together. If you show me a brochure with both a $1,000 table and a $10,000 table in it I'll assume we can work together on pricing but you'll have to work a bit harder to convince me that it's really a $10,000 table and not just a glorified $1,000 table.
Thanks Jeff,That's a big help. I think you read me pretty well. I've been going about five years and I am only now learning how not to be an eager beaver. Hence, this post. But, it's been a good five years with many repeat customers and solid references. Still, I get enough people that have sticker shock that I want to figure out a solution.Really? 800 to 1000 a foot? If you don't mind my asking, what part of the country and are you in a city? When I put brochures in the mail I target certain areas. Recent home sales, affluent neighborhoods... This has worked for me somewhat, but knowing who to target seems to be critical.Thanks for a thorough response. Justin
Justin
Don't let the #'s I posted regarding pricing concern you. I'm living and working in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. Pricing here for everything is a bit rediculous. I'm predominantly working in houses in excess of $1 million, and recently, several times that.
I can't help you with print advertising, as I don't do it with my woodworking business.
I strongly second what Richard is telling you about photo quality. A professional looking portfolio is a direct reflection of your attitude towards your business. In todays digital and computer age, it's also not a bad idea to create a CD of your work. I take one with me to potential clients homes, and although I don't have a laptop, who doesn't have a PC in their home? It gives them a chance to see alot of my work in a slideshow.
As far as sales attitude goes, don't let the "no's" get to you. You have to eat rejection for breakfast in any sales environment. If you put yourself in front of customers who have the financial means to afford your work, then all you need to do is sell yourself and your work. I can't tell you how many customers of mine answered my initial question of budget with an answer of $5K to $7K, only to spend $12K to $15K. They just needed to be educated about the process, and the additional costs incurred by custom work.
You seem to care, and are willing to learn. That's half the battle. Stay with it, and improve your presentation, and you will be just fine. Economically, these are the leanest times I can remember in 25 + years. Hang in there, and keep working. It's only going to get better.
Jeff
Thanks so much Jeff,That has a nice ring to it..."it's only going to get better"As an aside, do you, or anybody else, paint their own work or do you sub that out. Also, do you install pre-finished or do you paint on site? Sprayed water laquer is what I use. I would love to sub it out but transport of the cabinets and pricing have held me back. Thanks for the good words,
Justin
Justin
I do all my own finishing, and I do it in my shop with spray equipment. I design all my projects to be installed after they have been finished. I want to spend as little time in the customers home as possible.
I haven't done a painted finish in about 10 years. My niche, business wise, is with hardwoods like cherry, maple and walnut. If a customer wants paint, I build it, and they paint it. If that doesn't work for them, then they can hire it out. If that doesn't work for them, then I'm not their guy. That's not good advice, but it's where I'm at in my life right now. I like working in wood, not mdf. If my bills weren't getting paid, I'm sure I'd feel differently, but that's not the case.
Jeff
A good portfolio of previous work, ie, good images about 10" X 8" in a proper artist's type portfolio should help. A professional looking layout is a must. An amateurish layout screams unprofessional and sloppy. Scabby photo's in a beaten up shoebox reeks of 'Bob the Bodger'.
Show a range of projects you've done. Give your potential party the price you'd charge for each at current rates, not necessarily the same as what you charged to do the job: you might have under or overpriced the original, so there's no need for you to provide a wrong price is there?
Now they have an idea of your prices. If they blanch or start gasping and clutching their chests and reaching for the heart attack pills then there's a good chance you're not going to get a contract. Failing that reaction some shuffling of the feet, general shiftiness and an inability to look you in the eye for the rest of the negotiations is a good sign you're not going anywhere with this one. Move on and forget them.
If they don't bat an eyelid and suggest they like one or two you've shown but would like to upgrade this element or that, then you might be in business. With clients like this you may even be in a position to extract an upfront flat design and bid fee-- say 500 £'s or $'s, refundable of course if they proceed with an order. Naturally, the 'refund' is built in to your price anyway, so it's not really a refund at all. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,That's a great idea about the portfolio. I have to admit, that has been on my to do list for a long time. I have a lot of pictures but not all of them are quality. I always refer them to my website but that doesn't work the same way as a portfolio. And it isn't useful in saving my time.Do you take your own pictures? I couldn't afford a photographer for every job so I am trying to learn the basics on my own. I have a good digital camera and a tripod which are a big help. The hardest thing for me is lighting. I get lucky with some jobs if they have good natural light but many do not. If they are near windows, an overcast day is ideal. Without natural light, I am stuck. I want to invest in one or two lights and a baffle (an umbrella type thing that reflects the light and disperses it, I think it is called a baffle). Have you, or anybody else, had any luck taking quality photos of their work?You had me laughing out loud with the heart attack pills. It's funny cuz it's true!Thanks,
Justin
"Do you take your own pictures?" Yes, I've done so for a long time. I find it's an imperative skill that I've had to learn. Now I've got passably good at it I enjoy it as a hobby too.
I'm only just creeping into the digital age. I've got a lot invested in film camera kit and my best shots are still produced that way. I do need to move into good quality digital as well, but I've resisted it because of all the camera gear I already own-- the lenses for instance aren't generally interchangeable between an SLR camera and a DSLR camera. But I'll get there. Certainly I know how to shoot pictures, and having the skill in wet film picture taking transfers fairly readily to digital with some wrinkles.
Rob Millard, a fairly regular poster here provided a link to his excellent discussion on digital photography for woodworkers recently. It's definitely got all the essentials covered and worth your time reading if you're thinking of getting good images for your portfolio. Follow the link below. Slainte.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Photography%201.html<!----><!----><!---->Richard Jones Furniture
Digital thoughts,
If you move from film to digital I think you'll find that the lenses are interchangable. I've used Nikon stuff for years and when I went digital I was happy to learn that all my lenses were going to work with the new bodies. The focal lengths change a bit as the digital focal surface is farther back than a film camera.
I believe the Canon stuff is the same way unless your current equipment is really old. I've got an old Canon A1 and none of the new lenses fit due to their having changed the lens mount.
Madison
In my case all my film photographic kit is Minolta, and the lens fittings are the MD type. I'm led to believe by those in the know that these aren't interchangeable with anything digital.
It looks like I'll just have to start again! Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
One way to get into digital photography without having to buy all new camera equipment is to request a CD instead of prints when you have the film developed. Of course, you may still need to buy the faster computer, printer, photo software, large hard drive, more memory ...
Yeah I have looked into this also. I have a bunch of Old canon stuff (A-1 and that type) that is not digital capatable. So after looking into it and figureing out what I would need to duplicate what I have I was in the thousands of dollars. So I said to heck with it. I am keeping the film. I can have the film turned into digital inmages and it will take me forever to save that kind of money. I did get a little digital pocket camara for day to day use so I only have to pull out the A-1 for something special.
Doug Meyer
That's true, because Minolta is no longer made. But it isn't universally applicable. In the case of Nikon, all of my lenses bought in the early 90's work very well on a D200 purchased in 2006. From what I understand, lens back to the early 70's will work on Nikon's latest digital cameras, just not with autofocus and autoexposure.
The only excpetion is Nikon's recently released "DX" format lenses. They are designed to work with the smaller chips that Nikon has in their consumer and prosumer lines, and will not work with an older film camera or the latest high-end full-frame digital sensors.
I think the same is roughly true for Canon, though I think they did change the mount in the 80's, so anything earlier will not mount correctly to a modern camera.
For Canon any of the older types that mounted to the old A-1 AE-1 and that group and those will NOT mount to any of the new digital stuff. The old film Rebel lenses work on the new digital Rebel. I think the old mount is called the FD mount IIRC
Keep one thing in mind with digital. As far as I understand it the chip that scans in the image (what would have been the film in a film camera) is often times about half the size of the old 35mm film thus it is about 1/4 the area. And from what I have been told this means that effective lenses lenth is cut in about one half. So if you are used to a (say) 200mm telephoto, you will need something closer to 400mm to get the same result. I know you can digitally zoom but this is NOT the same thing as using a lense to zoom in. So unless you find a camera with a much larger then average chip (what ever that is really called) you will need to consider longer lenses and thus increase you expense if you use telephoto/zoom lenses much. Personally this is one of the areas I tend to use my camera and is one of the reasons I have not gone digital.
Please note I was told this by a couple different folks at a couple different places. One was a very knowledgeable fellow at a large box store (his hobby is high end photo work) and this lead me to talk to a couple of nice camera stores and talked to those folk we talked about what I use my camera for now and even though it cost them a good sale (I was ready to blow a grand or so) they pointed out that I would NOT be happy with that and to do what I wanted like I do with my film cameras would cost a bit more then that as I needed to spend a bit on a better camera and larger lenses. So I have to assume they were giving me good advise as it was NOT in their best interest as it cost them a sale (and they knew it would) when the suggested I stay with my film camera until I was ready to take the big plunge.
So while digital is nice for some peaple it is very expensive to do as the high end stuff is very exensive. Now for every day use (to take a photo of the family at a party) it is nice and pretty cheep. It is only when you get to the point of wanting either a lot of control or the ability to use a large number of lenses or longer lenses that things get costly.
Doug
"Keep one thing in mind with digital. As far as I understand it the chip that scans in the image (what would have been the film in a film camera) is often times about half the size of the old 35mm film thus it is about 1/4 the area. And from what I have been told this means that effective lenses lenth is cut in about one half. So if you are used to a (say) 200mm telephoto, you will need something closer to 400mm to get the same result. I know you can digitally zoom but this is NOT the same thing as using a lense to zoom in. So unless you find a camera with a much larger then average chip (what ever that is really called) you will need to consider longer lenses and thus increase you expense if you use telephoto/zoom lenses much. Personally this is one of the areas I tend to use my camera and is one of the reasons I have not gone digital."
Actually, what your sources told you was actually completely backwards. What you're referring to is called an "APS size sensor", and is in Nikon and Canon's "prosumer" and "consumer" digital SLRs. So that older film lenses would work on these cameras, and so that the manufactueres didn't have to radically change the optics in the newer lenses, they placed an in-camera magnifying lens in the body. This lens generally magnifies the image by approximately a factor of 1.5, though the exact magnification varies a little with the specific camera and manufacturer. This magnification reduces the optical image width coming out of the back of the lens to fit the smaller APS-sized sensor.
From the standpoint of lenses, you can multiply the stated lens focal length by the camera image multiplication factor to arrive at the equivalent focal length. Thus, a 200 mm lens on a film camera will give you an equivalent 300mm focal length on a digital SLR with an APS sized sensor and an image multiplication ratio of 1.5. That's great on the telephoto side of things, since a lens with a significantly longer focal length costs a lot more money. A 600mm Nikon lens, for example, is about 3 times the cost of a 400mm lens, other factors being equal.
The problem comes in on the other end of the spectrum - you now have to have a very short focal length wide-angle on one of these APS sensor cameras to get the same wide angle shot you got with a longer focal length on a film camera.
That's partially why Nikon and Canon make full-size digital sensor cameras in the high end of the range, though Nkon's new D700 and D3 cameras aren't quite the same size as the 35mm film image (they call this new size "FX").
There is a claim by the manufacturers that the slightly different focal plane in an APS sensor camera with an image multiplication lens in the camera results in light-fall-off and a reduction in contrast and sharpness on the edges of the image when used with a film camera lens. They therefore came out with lenses that are specifically designed to work with these APS sensors and that have a smaller optical image at the back of the lens. Nikon calls these "DX" lenses, and while a film lens will work with an APS sensor digital camera, a DX lens will definitely not work with a film camera, or one of the new digital cameras with an FX sensor. What you get if you try is an image in the center of a circle on the film frame, with the area outside of the circle unexposed (i.e., "the tunnel effect").
From the standpoint of using film camera lenses on an APS sensor camera, I can report first-hand that anyone will be hard pressed to visually distinguish between a photo taken with a film lens and one taken with a DX lens, given the same equivalent focal length. And since the future of digital SLRs will make APS-sensors obselete, I don't buy (nor recommend) that people put a large investment in DX lenses. It's better to continue using the full-frame film lenses on a DX camera, and upgrade to the 35mm film-sized sensors when they become more affordable in the next 3 years or so.
Hm. Some of this is correct. Some is not:
<"Actually, what your sources told you was actually completely backwards. What you're referring to is called an "APS size sensor", and is in Nikon and Canon's "prosumer" and "consumer" digital SLRs. So that older film lenses would work on these cameras, and so that the manufactueres didn't have to radically change the optics in the newer lenses, they placed an in-camera magnifying lens in the body. This lens generally magnifies the image by approximately a factor of 1.5, though the exact magnification varies a little with the specific camera and manufacturer. This magnification reduces the optical image width coming out of the back of the lens to fit the smaller APS-sized sensor."
APS sized sensors are indeed smaller than 35mm film. And the reason there is a "crop factor" with APS-sensor cameras is that the image circle from the lens is simply falling on a smaller chip than it used to on a piece of film.
In other words, the small sensor only records a small part of image circle. Thus, you're getting a "cropped" picture. This makes, as in your illustration, a 200mm lens "behave" like a 300mm on a DX (APS sized sensor) camera. The image is simply cropped in the camera.
I've owned Nikon DSLR's since the D100, and there has never been an "in-camera" magnifying lens in the camera body. Again, it's just that the size of the chip (sensor) is smaller than a standard sized piece of 35mm film that there is a "crop factor."
What you said about the difficulty of getting wide angle lenses for DX cameras used to be true. But Nikon and Sigma both came out with 12-24mm zooms ("equivalent to 18-36mm on a film or FX sensor camera). Sigma also has a 10.5mm fisheye as well, if I recall correctly.
Better yet, the Nikon D3 - and now the D700, with the same chip - are both FX (near 35mm sized sensor) cameras. I bought a D3 last year and a 14-24 f2.8 to go with it. This combination is capable of fantastically wide angle images. It's also completely killed off any loose change I had lying around...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I've owned Nikon DSLR's since the D100, and there has never been an "in-camera" magnifying lens in the camera body. Again, it's just that the size of the chip (sensor) is smaller than a standard sized piece of 35mm film that there is a "crop factor."
After doing some digging, I stand corrected. The internal lens was a design aspect of some of the earlier point-and-shoot digital cameras I've owned, and I assumed the internal cover of the sensor in the D70 (and subsequent digital Nikons I've owned - the D100 and D200) was doing a similar function. Nevertheless, what the salesman told him was indeed backwards from the actual "correction factor" to be applied to film lenses to get the 35mm equivalent.
And you're right, you can get a wide field of view with the extreme wide angle DX lenses (I own the 12-24 zoom), though that's not quite the same as a full-frame image sensor (or film) and an 18mm lens in some aspects of the image. The reason I suggested not buying too many of the DX lenses (and keeping film lenses) is that I strongly suspect they'll be obseleted in the near future, because you can't use them on a film camera or the newer full-frame image sensors.
Nikon's new D700, I think, points to the future. The almost-full-frame chip in the D3 was remarkably expensive when first introduced (nearly $5000), the D700 is considerably cheaper. I expect Nikon to continue pushing the FX-sized sensor down the line to less and less expensive "pro-sumer" models in the near future, so that in 3 years or so most of the camera line will use it.
Not sure what your opinion on this is, but 3 years is a very short period in the life of a lens to me - I expect my lens investment to last 20 years or so, the camera bodies, less than 3 years...
It is difficult to know exactly where Nikon is headed with the FX/DX stuff. A few years ago they swore they weren't working on an FX camera and were fully committed to the DX format. And then, out of the blue, they pop out the D3 and now the D700 - both FX cameras.
I suspect DX will be around for a while, though I no longer will invest in DX-only lenses. There are some advantages to it. The camera bodies are smaller and lighter, and less expensive. And the 1.5 crop factor, as we've discussed, yields a 300mm "sized" image with a 200mm lens (that's simplified, so don't take me to task for not using the correct terminology! But I know you know what I'm talking about...).
As to lenses, I agree that glass should be a more permanent purchase than a camera body - especially these days when digital cameras are little more than computers, and share much the same obsolescence cycle. That takes getting used to. I dropped $5,300 on the D3 when it first came out - and six months or so later the D700 appears, with the same sensor and about two grand cheaper.
I do some sports promotional photograpy though, so I do need the fast frame rate (9 FPS) for that purpose (though the D700 with the auxilliary battery pack does just about that as well), and I expect I'll find it a good investment once the economy picks up a bit.
Nikon is a good system in that they have taken pains to insure that nearly all their old lenses fit current camera body lens mounts. I still own - and use - some of my old manual focus lenses, in particular a 55mm macro, on my DSLR's.
That said, there have also been amazing upgrades to some parts of the Nikon lens line. The 70-200 is razor sharp, and focuses almost instantly. It's a great sports lens. And the 14-24 is an incredible wide angle. They're both, in my opinion, definite improvements to the lenses they replaced.
Anyway, we're straying quite far off topic here, eh? Let's get back to some woodwork..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton - Agreed. I always tell people that ask me "what kind of camera should I buy?" that the correct question is first "what kind of photography do I want to do?" and then "What lenses should I buy?" followed lastly by the camera choice.
This is just my opinion, but I think a photograph taken with one of the Nikon ED glass F2.8 constant lenses and a 6 mp body looks much, much better than 12mp shot using a mediocre, very inexpensive f4 - f5.6 plastic mount lens. And as long as Nikon sticks with the "we do not obselete our customer's lens investment" philosophy, it's worth paying the grand or so it costs to get these f 2.8 lenses. Now if only there was a way I could afford that 200-400mm f2.8 VR lens.....
Thanks for the advice guys. Ben, in response to your suggestion, that's what I now do. I get a digital disk at the same time as a bunch of prints.
dkellernc, I've found the digital camera I do own very useful for getting shots right, particularly when used in a studio along with a light meter to check the settings for my film camera. It's useful in general photography too.
My wife purchased a Konica Minolta Dimage Z10 one year when she visited relatives in Texas. It was on sale apparently. Anyway, it takes good enough shots, but like all cameras with a single lens seem to do it's got a nasty habit of what I call 'barreling' straight parallel lines.
However, where it really assists with taking film is that I can quickly blast off a shot with the digital job and check the lighting of the subject along with the background, etc. It's really helpful, for example, for identifying if a polished cabinet or table top shows as a blank white surface and the lighting needs adjusting. I guess I mostly use my digital much as the old Polaroid almost instant development photo cameras were used by photographers, particularly when I'm shooting finished work. But the digital camera is really useful for photographing things where distortion isn't very important, eg, pictures of trees, their leaves, flowers, fungi, close-ups of grain, etc. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Comment about barrel distortion - while the best way to reduce or eliminate barrel distortion is optical correction (longer focal length, etc...), Photoshop and (I think) some of the less costly software programs now have specific macros to correct barrel distortion and pincushion in photographs.
Depending on what you use to process the digital images, your software may already have the feature. Worth a look.
I can correct it. I use Photoshop. I just generally find it easier to get good shots with my film camera in the first place. It saves a lot of messing about. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Something that the others haven't directly said, is that you've got to learn to get comfortable with your work and yourself. YOU have to believe that your work is worth $$$. This may take some time.... it did for me, and maybe you'll never completely get over it, but you will learn how to deal with it.
You must develop a good portfolio. This alone will sell your work. Other things I find useful to have on hand when talking to clients: a few finished wood samples, examples of hardware that may be used (top quality brass hinges for example), models of pieces you've done or might want to do, and a notebook in which you take notes on what they are telling you.
Once you learn to trust in your own work and know that you are presenting yourself in the best possible way, you will probably get over the reticence of asking for design fees up front. Doing design work for free is a good learning experience but it will eventually be a huge waste of energy and leave you feeling resentful. Better to ask for money up front and find out early if you are talking with a real player or not.
Another thing I learned very early...... If someone calls you on the phone and "describes" what they want and then asks for a "ballpark" figure..... this will be a no-sale. Early on I actually tried to engage these folk...... never, not once, did a real job ever come of it. Now, I respectfully ask that they come to my shop and meet me, look at what I do, learn some things about me....... I want them to want ME to make something for them. Fine furniture deserves this relationship.
Another thing I learned very early...... If someone calls you on the phone and "describes" what they want and then asks for a "ballpark" figure..... this will be a no-sale. Early on I actually tried to engage these folk...... never, not once, did a real job ever come of it. Now, I respectfully ask that they come to my shop and meet me, look at what I do, learn some things about me....... I want them to want ME to make something for them. Fine furniture deserves this relationship.
Sap
That is solid advice. If they won't come and see you, they are fishing not looking for anything in a serious way. Additionally, I tell every person I talk with on the phone that my shop rate is 50/hour and the time I spend looking at their "antique" is time I am not working. Not being smug I am honest. It has taken me 15 years to get to the point where I am backlogged with in-shop work(projects, repairs and milling parts for others). Any time the work slows down I can always pound wood flooring down non-stop in the local 50 mile radius. I am not a volunteer for on-site work anymore-- I love to be in my shop setting producing work uninterrupted.
later
Justin,
I haven't seen your work, but it sounds a little low to me. One thing that a wise contractor (my Dad) told me when I was starting out is that you don't worry about the jobs you don't get - you worry about the ones you do, because you outbid somebody - probably because you forgot something. You shouldn't be offended by someone not choosing to do a project with you, and I'm constantly surprised by phone calls from people I had forgotten all about and they call me 6 mos. later. At this stage in your business you shouldn't spend a lot of time doing bids for people that you don't know how serious they are. You should provide only an estimate and then do design work if they want to go forward -- and never, ever give a design to someone without some sort of agreement or deposit because they will have your drawing at every cabinetmaker in town before you get back to the shop. Hope that helps.
i do not do professional woodwork, but when i have purchased furniture, a website (ie, portfolio) with pricing has helped me gauge if I should spend my time discussing a custom engagement.
A lot of folks don't have any idea what custom furniture will cost. if you have pics of your $10k built-ins on your website, many folks who would simply waste your time asking for quotes won't because they can't afford it. that's a good thing if there was no chance to begin w/.
Justin,
I believe you have been given some excellent advice, and this is one area of my business that I have been working on as well. Essentially we are trying to pre-screen potential customers to see if we are compatible. When I meet with a potential customer for the first time I tell them a little about myself and the way I like to run my business, and then ask them a few questions that help us both figure out if we might make a good team. Simply asking "What is more important to you, cost or quality?" does an amazing job of starting the dialog. "How important is customer service to you?" I find that with the customers I end up working for my honest questions receive honest answers.
Hope this has been a bit of help, and stick with it, it does get easier.
Matt
http://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
Justin,
This is something I've been thinking about too. After showing them my portfolio, what I have been doing is..
I explain that my bids are based on time and material. My labor rate is a competative rate which they first must be happy with. You might comare your rate to that of a plumber, auto mechanic, or mason. That may make your rate look even better to the customer. They usually understand that the materials are costly, and won't hold that against you. I explain that investing in quallity materials not only provides a better finished product, but can save on labor over the cheaper material. Once they are OK with labor rate and material cost, I explain that the total cost is up to them. The more work I do for them the more it cost. So if the price is too high, we can look at adjusting the size of the project. I won't cut corners or reduce quallity, but am willing to do less work to meet their budget. The customer now feels that they are in the drivers seat, and that they can help control the price. In fact they often feel that if the price is too high, it's their fault not mine. Because I'm will to work with them on the price/scale of the project, they stick around, and usually except the original bid I gave them, and don't adjust the scale of the project.
There must be a better way to handle this process. I'm no salesman. And am open to better suggestions.
Justin,
if you are doing anything wrong, I think it is that you are underpricing your work. $35/hr is a low fully loaded cost if you ahve a heated shop.
I have the same kind of business, with the added twist of usually having a fireplace in the middle of the unit. We charge $700-1200 a foot for our work and are busy non-stop (I'm in central NJ). The lower end price is for paint grade, primed only cabinets, but everything we do is installed. Getting the units to the clients house and installing them is a fair bit of work that many clients do not appreciate.
With the TVs, we're always adding or moving electric outlets and putting in chases for running the AV cables. All of these things are valuable to the client, and they need to understand that. They cost us time and materials, after all.
If your potential client balks at the price, let them walk. We get people all the time who expect a 32" high bookcase bottom cabinet for $50. Either they understand it really it is worth $500+ by the time it is installed and trimmed, or they don't become a client.
The downside of doing some jobs too cheap to get started is you are relying upon word of mouth. Word of mouth includes your first client telling a prospective client what they paid for their wall unit, and now the next person expects a deep discount, too. Don't give in, you'll never survive.
I'd suggest running an ad in a local paper if you need to drum up business. Take your portfolio book to the respondents who don't laugh at your prices to show what you can do. You'll be busy soon enough.
You are definitely underpricing your work. You get lots of word of mouth, but the word is 'cheap'. The other words may be 'hurry up and get in touch with him before he wises up or goes belly up!'. Once you develop a professional portfolio, gain self confidence (loose the starvation alley outlook), and ask people their budget (and start to pack up your things when they refuse), and quit giving away drawings, you will find the number of calls will drop, but the calls you get will be more likely to pay off. How many of your drawings have found their way into some other, even cheaper, garage boy's hands to make for even less money (since they don't have to draw it)?You will then start to get positive word of mouth with a different group of prospective buyers. This will require good work and design to match. Learn about the Golden ratio, history, architecture and furniture so you can converse intelligently with your clients. Just because you can build boxes doesn't mean you are a professional - it is much broader than that. Develop a specialty, don't be all things to all people. Figure out what you want to do and then move in that direction. Do excellent work and all will fall into place. There is no reason why you do not deserve to make a living at your chosen profession. You do not need to apologize to anyone for what you do. If you have a family, health insurance will be over $1,000 a month for the lot of you. That's $6.25 per hour on a 40 hr week. Take out your self(un)employment tax, other taxes, add in real overhead, count all your hours, and you are starving. You owe it to yourself, your family, and your profession to improve your situation. Did I say it wouldn't be easy, but will be very rewarding?Dave S
I never leave a drawing with a customer without a deposit.
Weeding out clients from tire kickers is a learned skill. Listening to a potential client is key. You already know the catchphrases that signal they should shop at Ikea. Perhaps most important is to understand you're not in this business to make everyone happy. It can't be done. You're in business to make money. The pleasure of craft comes second. When you wake up in the morning and can say that, you've achieved a milestone.
Closing a sale is also a skill, one I'm still working on. One approach is to refer to deposits as scheduling deposits, as it assures the client their place on your schedule.
Like others, I think your price on this piece is low. Working for wages is one thing, adding a percent for profit to ensure business growth is another. Our hourly rate reflects a lot of things, one of which is how we value ourselves, and our time. And that is something only you can answer yourself.
Best of luck!
Expert since 10 am.
Hi Justin,
There's been plenty of good advice so far in this thread.
Here is my take:
Get to know your market. If it's local, find out what other shops are doing. Join the Chamber of Commerce which will help project a professional business image. Always return phone calls even if it sounds like a job you won't want to do. Don't assume quality will sell. Again, get to know your market.
We live in a very disposable society. After 25 years of making custom cabinetry (kitchens, baths,built-ins) I see people being less and less interested in quality and more and more interested in cost and style. Even hign-end clients are more interested in the "look" because " it's going to be remodeled in a few years anyway".
That's my perspective. So, in order to do the quality woodworking I want to do, I'm getting a day job and doing the good stuff for me.
Hope you have great success and the best of luck,
Paul
Justin - You've recieved a lot of good advice on this thread, and I don't do built-ins, so I can't contribute there.
What I can heartily second is the thought of learning a few key phrases that potential customers use that puts them into either the "worth the time and effort to sell" or the "suggest that manufactured, non-custom work is more their style" camps.
I don't do woodwork as a full-time profession, but I do sell pieces (in this case, 18th century repros, though this would apply to almost any kind of custom-made furniture). I find that the customers that ultimately purchase a piece from me NEVER ask for the asking price in the first conversation. They are more interested in what my capabilities are concerning design, carving, wood selection, finishing, etc..., and typically want to discuss the reproduction of a particular colonial piece that they know they will never own because they're too rare and requires the wealth of Bill Gates to compete for on the floor of Sotheby's.
The ones that generally don't understand that good furniture cannot be made for the $995 price they see in a Rooms-to-Go advertisement for a 3 piece bedroom suite ALWAYS ask how much it's going to cost, sometimes before even letting me know what they want built (table, desk, etc...). I'm not brutal with these individuals - I take the 30 minutes or so to explain that modern manufacturing has so cheapened the final product that there really aren't any custom woodworkers that can or should try to compete on a price basis. I also ask them how long they'd like their furniture to last. Often the response is 10-15 years, and I explain that manufactured furniture with a plastic finish (though I don't use the word "plastic" in their presence) is entirely appropriate to their needs.
There has only been on of these individuals that I actually sold a piece to, and it was after they'd inherited a few pieces of antique furniture and compared it to the things they'd bought at the big-box stores.
Regarding photography - I've been doing it for 30 years now, and I can tell you that there is no reason that you cannot learn to do it yourself, just as you've probably taught yourself to do cabinet building. However, I'l also tell you that the learning curve is fairly steep. Not as steep as it was with film SLRs, but there are many things about taking good photographs that have nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to operate a digital SLR. So the point is to consider whether you want to learn photography. If the answer is no, I'm going to suggest that you consider hiring a professional photographer. It isn't free, but it's usually far less than what wedding photography costs, and you will get professional results in a big hurry, which is critical to your advertising needs.
Just my $0.02....
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