Replies

1. 
   mikkimel | Feb 12, 2003 04:32pm | #1

   Hey Hoov, it's an original stickley?  Oak?  Most likely was fumed with ammonia.  Why are you wanting to duplicate it?  Is it damaged?  or are you building something to go with it?

1. 
   KevinLBS | Feb 12, 2003 07:00pm | #2

   I can't even think of how many times this link has been posted, but here you go.

   http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/mission_oak.htm

2. 
   SIGNMAN | Feb 13, 2003 06:03am | #3

   MIKKIMEL,

        I WISH I HAD SOME ORIGINAL STICKLEY FURNITURE, BUT I DON'T.  I AM MAKING A MISSION STYLE FUTON FRAME.  I LOVE THE LOOK OF STICKLEY'S MISSION FURNITURE AND WAS JUST CURIOUS ABOUT THE FINISH.  EVEN IF I COULD AFFORD QUARTER SAWN OAK I WOULDN'T KNOW WHERE TO FIND IT.  I AM MAKING IT OUT OF FLAT SAWN ASH.  OBVIOUSLY THE ASH WON'T HAVE NEARLY THE CHARACTER OF QUARTER SAWN OAK BUT I THINK THE MISSION STYLE WILL BE NICE EVEN IF IT'S NOT UP TO STICKLEY'S STANDARDS. 

         I HAVE NEVER STAINED ASH BEFORE, ANYTHING I SHOULD BE AWARE OF. 

                                      THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE,

                                                                                         HOOV 

1. 
   Robbie | Feb 14, 2003 02:49am | #4

   Hoov:  No need to shout (CAPITALS).   Your question about Stickley is a very good one.  The Stickley Company is absolutely paranoid about sharing anything regarding their finish.  They look at it as a tightly guarded trade secret.

   My wife bought a Stickley bedroom set for our home in cherry.  The kids scratched it - ouch.  I called to get some stain and they said "absolutely NOT".  I could bring it back or they could send someone out to fix it, but they would not share their stain or any information about it. 

   Talk about intense!!

2. 
   fdampier5 | Feb 25, 2003 02:36am | #15

   were you aware that you can still buy Stickly furniture new from the Stickly company?

        I bought  a bedroom set for my wife.

     

1. 
   SIGNMAN | Mar 02, 2003 08:45pm | #19

   Frenchy,

        There is a store in our area that sells Stickley, but even if I could afford it what's the fun in that?

                                                Thanks for the response,

                                                                                           Hoov

1. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 11, 2003 06:07am | #21

   priorities,   man priorites.

    I buy she who must be obeyed a bedroom set and I get to build a timberframe home..  now that's fun!

2. 
   Elcoholic | Feb 15, 2003 12:25am | #5

   Becareful Hoov.  Most of the mass produced so-called mission furniture in the world doesn't look anything like what old Stickley furniture looks like.  So most people's idea of what it should look like is based on repro stuff that's way off.  Some of what I've seen (like at Restoration Hdwr) is so red that I just don't get it.  The new Stickley furniture, which is LJ Stickley doesn't really look like the Gustav Stickley originals either.  So if you can find an original piece to look at you'll at least be chasing the real thing.  I fume, oil, shellac and topcoat my stuff for myself.  For customers I get them the color they want off of a sample using waterbase dyes and tinted top coats unless they want to pay for the time it takes, the extra material to avoid sapwood and they will be happy with the variations that will occur with a fumed finish.

   John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   SIGNMAN | Feb 15, 2003 03:07am | #6

   JOHN,

       THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE.  TO FUME SOMETHING DON'T YOU NEED A SEALED CONTAINER BIG ENOUGH TO PUT YOUR PIECE IN IT COMPLETELY AND CLOSE IT UP?  IS THERE ANY PRESSURE NECCESARY OR JUST AMBIENT PRESSURE?  DOES THE FUMING ACTUALLY COLOR IT OR JUST PRECONDITION IT SO IT TAKES A STAIN A PARTICULAR WAY? 

                                  THANKS FOR YOUR TIME,

                                                                            JOHN

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 16, 2003 06:31am | #7

   Yeah, you do need a sealed container for the fuming process, Hoov, but no pressure. U-Haul rent out trailers for ~$25 a weekend-- more than enough time to fume a large piece, and you don't have to build anything, ha, ha.

   If you could maybe turn off the capital lock on your keyboard, it would be polite net user etiquette. Capitalised words are considered to be shouting. ;-) Slainte.Website                                          The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

1. 
   macalex | Feb 16, 2003 09:48am | #8

   HEY, MAYBE THIS GUY JUST LIKES TO SHOUT.

   I've got a cousin like that.

   Eveything is at full volume.

   It's hard work keeping up, but his opinions are unambiguous!

2. 
   SIGNMAN | Feb 19, 2003 05:06am | #10

   Richard,

         Sorry for the ALL CAPS, bad habit from work.  Lots of noisy machines, have to shout to be heard.

        Thanks for the suggestions on fuming.  Do you just put an open top container full of amonia in the sealed uhaul or bag, or do you need to flood the bottom of your container to expose a lot of amonia. 

       Does ash have enough tannin in it for the amonia to do its thing.

                                                       thanks for the help,

                                                                                    Hoov

1. 
   Clay | Feb 19, 2003 07:41am | #11

   I haven't tried fuming ash but I suspect that the tea treatment would be useful.  Most of the woods with high tannin content are darker than ash.  You can just set an open container of your ammonia on the floor of the trailer or the bottom of the bag, the fumes will ultimately reach throughhout your enclosed area.  Some people use small warmers under the ammonia containers to speed the reaction (like a warmer candle).   For the tea treatment you steep a pretty concentrated tea and then apply it with a foam brush (two coats) wiping off the excess afterward as if it were a water stain.  Then fume.  Do some practice pieces until you get the feel of it and see something that you like the look of.

2. 
   SIGNMAN | Feb 24, 2003 01:37am | #13

   Clay,

       Thanks for the info.  This is an ignorant question but what exactly does fuming do.  Obviously the strong tea will stain it but how will the fuming change it.

                                            Thanks again,

                                                                  Hoov

3. 
   Clay | Feb 24, 2003 03:13am | #14

   The color change during the fuming process is due (primarily) to a chemical reaction between the tannins in the wood and the ammonia.  The high concentrations of tannin in oaks explain why this finish has primarily been used on oak.  For other woods with lower ammounts of tannin, there will be a much less notable effect.  Tea has a lot of tannin in it and thus can be used to add tannin to the wood surface.  Obviously this is not as simple or likely to get an attractive result as if the wood naturally contained high amounts of tannin.  Again that explains the reason why you rarely see this finish used on woods other than oak.  Even for oak finishing, newer staining possibilities have made this finish a rarity today.  It does have advantages though, rarity itself can mean more unusual and different looking, it has a subtlety that is not often acheived by most newer finishes, it often emphasizes beautifully grained oaks in a very nice way.  It takes little labor, once you have a system devised to contain the fumes and the pieces to be finished, it is a most efficient system.

4. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 20, 2003 03:59am | #12

   No biggie on the all capitals thing, Hoov, but it has to be said that posts, documents, etc., are more difficult to read when printed in capitals.

   No need to flood the bottom of the container with ammonia. For a small object in a small container, a single saucer of concentrated ammonia should do. For fuming a large object in a large container, two, three, five, or whatever of shallow dishes with ammonia should do it. You might arrange one or two dishes of the stuff higher up as the fumes tend to sink.

   It's a nasty process when industrial strength ammonia is used, and a good mask designed specifically to block such fumes, gloves and other protective clothing really is required. Even Windex and other household cleaners can give you a bit of a belt if you sniff them too hard, so imagine what a good whiff of industrial strength stuff can do to your lungs, eyes, etc.. Take extreme care with the stuff, and read carefully the safety sheets that are supplied when you buy it before you use it. Slainte. Website                                          The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

2. 
   Elcoholic | Feb 17, 2003 07:52pm | #9

   I like RJ's U-haul idea for larger projects.  For small ones an inflated trash bag works great.  For larger projects I have built a 'chamber' with lath strips and painters plastic.  28% blueprint ammonia works best but 6% non-detergent household stuff works well too, it just takes a longer.  The amonia reacts with the tanin in the wood and colors the wood as deeply as the fumes penetrate.  The rays in quartered white oak don't have much tanin so they stay light, ditto for sap wood but to a lesser degree.  There will be variations in the color that will vary with the tanin content.  Some people pre-treat with tea (tanic acid), but I haven't tried that.  To pop the figure, I follow up fuming with a coat 50/50 boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits w/ a little Japan drier to speed things up.  If the top coat will be sovent based I'll let it dry a week or if it'll be waterbourne I'll wait a month.  The next step is a coat of 1- 1/2 # cut orange shellac to warm the color and seal the oil.  Finally I top coat with lacquer or waterborne poly (Enduro) depending on the use.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Mar 11, 2003 06:40am | #22

   John,

   I remember reading that Gustav Stickley was fascinated with the coloring process and, although he generally did use ammonia fuming in his furniture, he also experimented with different dyes and stains.  This fascination stayed with him throughout the years of his retirement, and he spent much of his time engaged in these experiments.

   Re. the new Stickley pieces, I've looked closely at a new Stickley bedroom set some friends own and it appears to have been dipped in stain.  The reason why I say this is the presence of some runs that seem to be far too heavy to have been the result of a spray unit.  (They love their set, but I was not impressed.  Seemed like a helluva lot of money for mass produced furniture.)

   Jeff

1. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 11, 2003 04:53pm | #23

   perhaps my bedroom set is the exception.  When I first looked into Stickly I expected to see flaws that show up on mass produced stuff.  I looked and looked and was actually disappointed that there were none.   Since I'm a better critic than a cabinet maker  that actually bothered me..  Almost $15,000 for three pieces I felt certain that I could spot flaws. 

         I placed my order and waited expecting a battle once delivered,  because you know they touch up the showfloor model.   Nothing.. I was ruined..  good work without flaws..

     Now I'll grant you I'm wierd, I didn't want Stickly oak, rather Their mahogany stuff. Perhaps if I looked real close at their Oak I could find flaws..

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Mar 11, 2003 08:46pm | #24

   I've only seen mahogany pieces in pictures, but they looked very nice.  Glad to hear yours has worked out so well.   Jeff

2. 
   Elcoholic | Mar 12, 2003 12:02am | #25

   I looked at the current Stickley Harvey Ellis-ish dining chairs at Homestead House a while back and there was a big glue run (2-3" long) on a back leg at the strecther joint that curiously enough didn't have any stain on it.  My thoughts ran pretty much the same as yours did.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 12, 2003 06:11am | #26

   That sounds like the kinda thing I'd do,  work for months on a piece only to ruin it at the last moment and then miss the obvious because I was so focused on whatever else I was focused on..

           It sure would have been nice if i could have found some goober or mistake on the stuff I bought.. Makes me feel pretty humble to have to constantly correct my mistakes and see that someone else can do it without them..

1. 
   Robbie | Mar 12, 2003 04:35pm | #27

   We bought a Stickley bedroom, a Shaker inspired set, in cherry.  The craftsmanship was quite excellent as was the finish.   The only downside was a non-functional electrical outlet included in the armoire. 

   At $10K or so, it was a significantly better investment versus any other mass produced furniture we looked at.  Clearly made to be passes down to the next generation. 

   Of course, it would have been nice if Dawn, my wife, had the patience to let me build it.  On second thought, we'd still probably be sleeping on the floor 3 years later.  Wood working is my hobby... but time competes with my real job, my 4 and 5 year old kids, hunting and what used to be regular, but now only occasional round of golf.   

   :-)

2. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 12, 2003 05:55pm | #28

   Yep, it's amatter of priorities.  Your children or working on a furniture set.   I think you chose the right one . The kids are only young once and  they need you now..  when they grow up you will have an excellant piece to use as an example of skilled construction. Plus something to serve as a pattern for night stands dressers and such..

3. 
   JMcIntee | Feb 25, 2003 10:23am | #16

   Hoov,I have built several Stickley "reproductions" from quarter-sawn oak- 4 morris chairs, a queen size bed, cabinets etc... and have always fumed them with blueprint ammonia. All the methods mentioned by the other guys in the forum are pretty much exactly what I have done and it works very well.

   For a finish I use straight Watco oil, about 7 to 10 coats then ordinary paste wax. After a couple of years of coffee cups, wine and beer glasses there appears to be no ill effects. With this finish, the wood comes out a golden brown with the ray flecks almost shimmering. I have seen some authentic Stickley stuff at the Gamble House in Pasadena, Calif. and the color appears very close.

   I am currently building a Craftsman style bungalow and have installed oak and mahogany floors. I used straight Watco again on the floors and they are beautiful. The more we walk on them, the better they get!

   good luck fuming.

   Jim

1. 
   SIGNMAN | Mar 02, 2003 08:42pm | #18

   Jim,

       Where do you get blue print amonia?  How long have you left your pieces exposed to the amonia?

                                         Thanks for the help,

                                                                            Hoov

                              

1. 
   JMcIntee | Mar 03, 2003 09:00am | #20

   Hoov, I obtained 4 gallons from a local architect/draftsman. His office changed to laser printers instead of blueprint machines so he was more than happy to get rid of it.

   When I fume, I build a 1x2 frame large enough to hold a morris chair and poly sheeting stapled to it. I used 1 pie plate about half full for about 20 minutes. The oak turned a sickley grey color and I thought I had blown it, but when I applied oil, the gold color came through very nicely.

   I poured the remaining ammonia back in the jug and now I wonder how I am going to use it all up. Have to build more furniture I guess.

   Good luck.

   Jim

4. 
   LarryPile | Feb 25, 2003 09:26pm | #17

   Look at the Homestead finishing website...a great site and a great materials resource...a bit pricey, but you get what you pay for.

   I used an adaptation of his formula and am very, very satisfied.  See my posts in the gallery for my Arts and Crafts Picture frames and Arts and Crafts Dresser/Chest of Drawers.

   The finish on both is a multi-step process, all brushed on, and works well, highlights the ray-fleck, and is easy to do.  I coat "high-wear" pieces with Poly.  Picture frames, etc with Shellac.

   I tend to prefer the warmer "redder" mission finish.  I've also done a cooler, "browner" finish as well...no garnet shellac (blonde) and brown dye instead of Vintage maple.

   Good Luck.

   lp