Hubby just sent me this link, re: theft of big leaf maples in our area. Wonder if the new law is going to help?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/226446_maplethieves31.html
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
FG,
When I was living in Los Angeles, I had three palm trees taken out of my front yard; when I got home from work they were gone!
The neighbors said a very professional-looking outfit pulled up in front of the house shortly after I went to work, removed the trees with a giant machine that scooped them up, rootball and all, loaded them on the back of an enormous flatbed truck, and drove off.
Three different neighbors came by to ask how much I had sold them for; they'd all seen them removed, and thought the whole deal had been legitimate!
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
If you ever find them make them suffer
what a bunch of bas--rds
woody/LUTHER
scary stuff
Where I live in Central California, to get the kids (youngest is 18) to lock the doors when they leave is a major challenge.
So, anyone wants to steal kiln dried lumber, just get my address. Never mind the trees.
Hey Jamie,
Wow! My favorite curley maple supplier assures me that he has a USFS permit and harvests on his permit. It does give me pause though. I do get good prices from a guy who sells out of his garage (he sells Vine Maple, and Cascara bow wood too) . Hmm, ...I guess maybe I should ask some more questions.
Tom
That is something we should probably do, and as responsible woodworkers maybe also ask about source of exotic hardwoods - are they from sustainable plantations or slash and hack?1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
The "sustainable harvesting" thing is another (big) can of worms. But I'll tell you, the idea that someone could sneak onto a piece of property and fell huge old maples like that makes my blood run cold. I have a very good friend who has property in that very area, with 2 big maples amongst a bunch of garbage alder. They are very important to him when thinking about building a home up there, and he'd be devastated if someone snuck in and cut them down!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
One of the other posts dealing with interior and exterior doors has some fun commecnts on alder. You might want to jump into the fray, based on the "garbage alder" statement.
Have fun1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Rick, I haven't looked at the thread yet, but my comment referred to the small/young nature of the alders on that property. I love working with alder for indoor stuff that's not subject to bumps and bruises. Can be hard to find good stuff consistently though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It seems like the do-gooders have struck again.
It seems that it would be necessary to obtain a permit (permits typically involve fees) to transport lumber off my own property to for instance a kiln service. What a deal.
Well won't this allow the return of my property someone might say? I suspect if the trees are not returned immediately, and sawn shortly thereafter, they will begin to split and check, and be fire wood. So, my property is not not protected, and life just gets more complicated.
I would hate to be in the tree trimming business after this goes into effect.
Not the do-gooders stiking again, it is rather the do-badders. I hate government interferance as much as the next guy, but in this case it is unfortunatly one of the few ways to limit the problem or catch the offenders.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Understand your point Rick, but at the cost of making life difficult for honest people, I can't agree. As a rule if you ask a governmental entity to find a solution to a problem, you will create another series of problems.
Those rules are not for you and me, but for our next generation, to make sure they don't end up with plastic furniture as the only affordable option.
We need even more rules, to protect mother earth, the forests in South America, and the managed availability of exotic lumber. This is becoming a big issue.
This rule won't protect the next generation from anything. I would personally have all the tress in my yard disappear, than my personal liberties. I feel like I am begining to sound like a libertarian, which I am really not. I just feel that in this particular isntance, it was overkill.
By the way, as much as I love wood, plastic furniture is the least of the issues future generations will face.
"This rule won't protect the next generation from anything. I would personally have all the tress in my yard disappear"
In California, if you have a "big yard" such as a ranch, you need a permit to take down your own trees.
"By the way, as much as I love wood, plastic furniture is the least of the issues future generations will face."
When I was young and beautiful, my parents said the same thing about our generation. Yet, I think I had it much better than they ever did.
"In California, if you have a "big yard" such as a ranch, you need a permit to take down your own trees."
Thanks for illustrating another example of a stupid rule.
Bioman,
If I'm correct, you are very fortunate to live in the US. We are less regulated than any other first world country and rules seems to be a real problem for you.
Go and buy a number of guns in Europe and go shoot them on BLM land... It's simply not possible and there are several similar examples.
The important thing to remember, is that life is not only about you and yourself. No offence intended.
Odd, my observation of you is that the lack of rules poses a problem for you. Need a large amount of structure to feel secure? No offence.
Life is about about being considerate of others, I fully agree. We seem to dis-agree about the best way to arrive at that point.
Your turn............................
My turn.....
OK, let's get back to the subject.
Without any structure and rules, how do you protect your liberty from being really offended, when you come home from your vacation, to find that your tree has been stolen from your 2,5 acre property and your privacy invaded? Or do you tie a Pit Bull to the tree, before departing?
The only time I feel insecure, is when that custom ground shaper knife is spinning at 10,000 rpm with shavings flying and the wife want's to hand me the cell phone to answer a call.
Too much structure is the antithesis of liberty. If you feel the need for a rule to govern all activities in a society, you will find that it is not possible to anact enough rules to address all aspects of human behavour. But if you feel the need go ahead and support it, I do not.
"you will find that it is not possible to anact enough rules to address all aspects of human behavour."
Yes, you are absolutely correct. The best example of this here in the US is a maximum speed restriction on the interstates at 75 mph, and the auto manufacturers build us vehicles, able to violate the law in less than 10 seconds, from a standing start.
While I also agree with your liberty thing, I further agree that rules are destructive to creativity.
You seem to be meeting me in the middle here now, as we both agree, rules are necessary in society, but within reason.
This may be a bit of a reach, but look at it as rustling.
In both cases someone else's property that they have invested time and money into is being stolen.
How would a rancher in Texas feel feel if he came out and found the remains of some cattle that had been butchered on his property and hauled off? Or even some long horn ranchers finding the cattle killed and the top of the skull with the horns cut off and the rest of the animal left lying about?
Does Texas have any laws about cattle transport that were enacted to help reduce or prevent rustling? How do you feel about those laws? In your parts, cattle is a bit economy and a bit way of life and in the Northwest timber is. Just similar issues with different principal products.
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Edited 6/3/2005 10:04 am ET by Rick
Hey Rick,What you said man. I wish I could say it as well with so few words.Tom
This may be a bit of a reach, but look at it as rustling.
That's exactly what I thought of when I read this. When you transport livestock, you're subject to brand inspections, health inspections, etc. Especially going across state lines. I never thought of this as an "infringement of liberties" in my movement of animals. Just common-sense procedures to protect the livestock industries.
I didn't read anything about fees. 'no reason there has to be. I got a nuisance animal trapping permit from Fish and Wildlife awhile ago, and I don't remember any fees. The permit just served to establish a paper trail.
I have a maple that was planted in 1886. I've sold plenty of lumber off of this place, but I'd hate to see some SOB's steal that one.
Not in tune with the whole cattle thing, I am a northern transplant. However, Texans in general and particularly in rural area's are not big on an overabundance of laws.
Cattle rustling is likely not an issue here, as most cattle are raised in small quantities, in a lot of locations to compensate (there are about ten of them on the 10 acre property across the street from me; and I know many Texans that own rifles and will tend to use them if you choose to help yourself to their stuff.
It Texas, at least where I live, there seems to be more of a considerate standard of behaviour by most people, that does not need to be legislated to be realized....
It likely that I am sensitive about permits and such. As a northerner from New Jersey we were required to buy permits and pay for inspections on too many things. Everything from disposing of an old toaster to adding an outlet on in your kitchen. On top of a very heavy tax base, all this was charged as additional.
For instance, I was failed three times by a building inspector for wiring an addition ( I knew more than he did about the correct methods); I later found out it basically came down to the fact that I was taking work away from local tradesman this guy was tight with.
In rural Texas, I have installed electrical services and three phase converters, which would never be allowed in New Jersey by anyone other than a licensed electrician, (all accomplished quite safely and professionally).
In my life, I have moved about a few times. I grew up on Long Island (Valley Stream in Nassau County - just outside the city), I then moved to Southern NM and lived there for 20 years and finally moved to Oregon (tree hugger country)10 years ago. I have family in central Texas as well. I know what the rural cattle industry is like and yes those good guys with the rifles on the rack in the pickup and all. Rustling is still done in Texas and NM and there ARE laws on brands, and transport permits. There is lot less regulation on other things like cutting trees, building codes and almost no zoning regulation whatever in a number of parts of texas (can't remember if it is all the state on the zoning issues)
Logging and timber industry is big business in the NW. There has been some changes, due to spotted owl, sustainable harvest, clear cut regulations, foreign cometition and so on, but a lotof that has/had to do with environmental issues and quality of life issues. Being a big industry and people in the NW enjoying their forests, timber and wood are cared for and about by a large number of people. Just look at this as a regional quirk.
In most of the country, if you were driving a PU with a rifle in the rear window rack the police would be all over you. I did just that quite often when I lived in NM. And the area I lived in, it was legal to carry a loaded pistol on your hip, so long as it was in plain sight. You cannot do that in too many places. So I miss that? - not really, I now have trigger locks and transport them in the trunk when I go hunting. Here I have access to a large number of hardwood dealers and mills and the selection is great and the prices reasonable (seafood is awesome and inexpensive as well). I also lived for 4 years in Germany back in the early 70's. While there I travelled over most of Europe. Believe me, the regulations we are are nothing compared to other counties.
Sorry for the soapbox and novel. I usually hate to get into these bickering sessions that sometimes pop up. Forest Girl just posted a nice "Hey read this" alert and it has turned into a personal rights bickering session. Can we all just agree that we have our own opinions and regional concerns and leave it at that and go back to making things from wood? That is where I am headed now - out to finish working on some kitchen cabinet doors. 1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Rick, thanks for posting. Your experience living in various areas that have different priorities sheds light on the discussion and helps put things in perspective. I suspect most people who have never lived in the Northwest can't fathom the importance of timber and related forest products to the economy and the personality of the area. Even now, much of the state money for schools comes from harvesting timber.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If New Jersey bureaucracy is anything like the stereotype, it's not based on need but greed.
BTW, have you thought about how you'd solve our problem? I'm very interested in an effective alternative approach.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I drew up in NJ and yea, the regs there were ridiculous. In most western states, it's taken for granted that a homeowner can do their own electrical work. And there is (or at least was) a tremendous amount of corruption there. It seemed to result in the common mindset among most people that you were getting ripped off all the time.
Personally, I don't understand why the place is still inhabited. ;)
In Australia we have a number of pests that attack isolated trees. We also have some understanding that a good urban stand of trees, spread across several properties can create a micro cliamte that reduces water usage etc.
Many of us hate the inconvenience and imposition of tree preservation orders, but I can uderstand the logic and the 'greater good'. Sometimes these laws are only a way of codifying a common sense community agreement.
I do have some experience with 'transport' laws though. In Queensland, there is a long-standing law that ALL stack being transported requires a police permit that lists the stock, its brands and identifying marks. This includes trips to pony club. The laws were put in place after some very large cattle thefts and people have learnt to work with them. Generally, the professionals simply treat it as a matter of routine. The problem with the palm trees, is that it was probably profesionals that did the deed.
"I just feel that in this particular isntance, it was overkill." Please, feel free to give us an example of how you would solve the problem. Not on your personal property, but for western washington in general. I think you need to give us an example of a "rule" or whatever that would work, but not be "stupid" by your definition.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
We need even more rules, to protect mother earth, the forests in South America, and the managed availability of exotic lumber. This is becoming a big issue.Lets be clear about this: Woodworking, cabinetmaking, furnituremaking, and wood crafts make no dent in the worlds timber supply. Its the vast consumption for paper, slash and burn for agriculture, and the clear cutting of hardwood forests in the tropics that are denuding the planet. Currently, large timber companies are finishing off most of the Indonesian Rosewood for use as plywood concrete forms in Asia. This is wasteful! There are synthetic and metal products that are better but a little more expensive at the outset. The problem with the apparent price is that the loss of forest is not calculated into the balance sheet cost so it only appears that it is cheaper. Feel no guilt at the real use of wood but rather at not making a statement to others about what is actually happening. Aloha, Mike
We need even more rules, to protect mother earth, the forests in South America, and the managed availability of exotic lumber. This is becoming a big issue.
*******************Rainforest preservation is indeed an issue. The problem in SA isn't as much woodworkers and timber firms as cattle and grain.Most of the rainforest destruction of recent has been farmers bulldozing forest to make farms. I've seen photos of piles of tropical hardwood burning to get the potash out of it after the land was bulldozed.If these yahoos had half a lick of sense, they'd sell the timber for a goodly sum and buy potash instead.Maybe it's me, but I'm getting tired of being the bad guy just because I use mahogany now and then.That said, around here the tree removal folks would have problems with a reg like that, as most of them haul off the trunks to a local sawmill if they're of any useable size. I can see the point of it, though, as I'd be plenty pi**ed if I came home to find our forty foot Montmorency cherry tree missing.What we have here instead of tree piracy -- at least in the city -- is architectural woodwork piracy. Several years ago, a house that was being sold as an estate was pirated. House was built about 1890 or so, some guys drove up with trucks, pulled the turned posts from the front porch, pulled the fireplace mantle and got da*n near every inch of mop board in the house, plus the balusters, railing and newel posts from the staircase.Very professional crew. Even put up a stolen building permit in the front window, just where a remodeler would post it. It was a couple of weeks before anyone caught onto it, the city BI noticed the permit, didn't recall one being issued for that address and called it in.AFAIK, nobody's been charged to date.Leon Jester
Bioman,
You aren't the same person who complained about seatbelts are you? I can hear your complaints now about catalitic converters. Etc. etc. etc..
Face it, the country has nearly 300 million people in it, that's well over 100 million more since I was born and I believe it's reasonable to assume with over 100 million more people will come more rules.. There is simply no way we're going back to the 1880's (or any earlier period no matter how much we may like it)
I'll state right here, right now, that in the next 50 odd years the laws will get far more and more complex. Rules that seem like simple common sense will be written and enforced..
It's not the governments fault (since "we" are the government) simply the result of a more complex society..
I think your refering to me when you when you mentioned seat belts. The reason I brought up seat belts is because here in the NJ you can and will be pulled over and ticketed for not wearing one. The jist of my post was that there are already too many ways for the citizens to be hasseled and monitored. I do belive that more laws are comming, I'll grant you that. I don't know where your from but, maybe if you lived where I lived you would have the same attitude as me. It's getting to be a real police state here. Something to look forward to eh?
Besides isn't it already illegal to cut someones tree down without permission.
Far as I know, the "Click it or Ticket" is a nationwide program. Can't blame that one on your state I don't think.
Yes, it is already illelgal to cut down someone else's tree without permission. The permit requirement gives the cops at least a chance of catching them with the goods. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
well maybe so,but just my opinion here,but it would seem to me a pretty brazen act cuttting down someones trees, and probably just a few bad apples doing it. Catch them with some good detective work, make a show of the arrests etc. to discourage the act and maybe that would do it.
The reason I brought up seat belts is because here in the NJ you can and will be pulled over and ticketed for not wearing one.
Most states have "primary" seat belts laws now. 'got no problem with it. First off, operating a motor vehicle on public highways is an earned priviledge, not a right. You want to be free of responsibilties? Walk, take a bicycle or a horse, or stay on private property.
As a priviledge, you can be required to meet reasonable requirements. Like being sober, not fatigued, good eyesight, operating headlights, using simple and basic safety equipment, etc.
Also, when something bad happens, you expect the whole public- and privately-funded health and safety infrastructure to leap to your aid. So you have to accept minor safety requirements recommended by those same safety experts in return.
Maybe it would be nice to "darwin award" non-seat belt wearers, and dictate that when you go through a windshield during what would otherwise be a minor fender-bender because you didn't wear a seat belt, the ambulances wouldn't bother to show up. But we all know that wouldn't fly politically.
Well said. I find it offensive that MY taxes and Insurance premiums are higher just because people can't use common sense when doing...well, anything it seems, whether it's wearing seat belts, operating dangerous machinery, or leaving other people's property the he11 alone. Mankind outstrips all other living things when it comes to deliberately doing stupid and destructive things, and as long as that remains the case, laws to protect those of us who just want to exercize our right to quiet enjoyment will be necessary- be they seatbelt laws, zoning laws, or personal property protections. I feel you should be free to do as you please, as long as it dosen't affect others. Laws and law enforcement are there to keep your personal choices from invading the rights, safety, or privacy of others. Example: Want to drink and drive on a private road, where your choice can't affect others? Fine, but don't expect MY taxes to pay for flight to life when you wrap yourself around a tree. Drive on a PUBLIC road way, where you will put me and mine in danger? Gee, I wish there was someone who could stop you...Oh, wait, there is......
Tony
Once again, the purpose of my post was to express that I felt there was already too many rules and regulations and that I feel that while people have legitamit concerns that enough is sometimes enough.
It was not necessarily about seat belts, which you, obvious by the rage expressed in your post feel strongly about. I can dig that, but hey I wear my seatbelt, I never said I didn't or didn't want to. You just assumed that,as indicated by your frequent use of the word "you".
Ya know I was just thinking that there are lots of dangerous things that people do, using a table saw is one of them. Many sensible people would say your nuts for using a table saw and if they had a like mind they would "darwin award" every one on this board who is spending there time in the basement or garage.
while I don't actually think that if you had your way you would just let people who fly through there widshields just lie there suffering, The statement in itself is kinda over the top.
also I didn't know that the click it thing was nation wide. Anyway just posting around all is cool.
cheers mon
No rage here, just healthy debating. And the "you" was meant to be an impersonal pronoun for the purposes of discussion. Substitute a "a person" if you want.
I've seen some table saw users that do qualify as "darwin" candidates.
ok, no prob. LOL on the table saw, i've seen that too, actually I've done some pretty crazy things on it before I knew better.
Scott1
Police state? Yes you are right but it's never going to get better.. too many people.More on the way..
I live in a community of about 3000 families and we spend over 3 million a year for police.. In addition the county sherrif has a station nearby and then there is always the highway patrol.
every nearby community has almost the same level of police. just try to drive around here with plates that don't belong here.. People of color are spotted and followed and reasons for the issuance of tickets are found..
Yes we have a low crime rate about a tenth of the normal rate but the cost of citizens rights is too great!
"I would hate to be in the tree trimming business after this goes into effect." I doubt many tree trimmers are transporting "logs of less than 8 feet, free of knots, which can be turned into musical instruments or ornamental boxes."
"Well won't this allow the return of my property someone might say?" It's not the return of your property that's the main goal here, IMHO. It's the apprehension of people who are doing the bad deed, and the deterrence (after a few have been caught) of those who would follow in their footsteps for a few bucks.
I'm not seeing this through rose-colored glasses and thinking it's a cure-all, but hopefully it will help. The lawmakers are basically treating the transport of this stolen resource the same as drug possession -- if you have it in your vehicle without the proper documentation, they seize the wood, your truck and your tools. That's scary for someone who might not know about the law, so I hope there aren't too many problems there. But it serves the bad guys right, IMHO. [hopefully, the mills will alert incoming customers to the requirement, right?]
Your profile doesn't say from whence you hail, Bioman. Wanna give us a clue?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Using this logic, we should require all citizens to have permits to transport anything a thief could steal. How else will the police be able to tell the difference. I am from Texas, what does that have to do with the conversation.
"I am from Texas, what does that have to do with the conversation." I was just curious whether you were from the northwest or not (Washington State is where this law has been enacted).
The whole thing about following the logic is just alarmist cra ...junk, IMHO. If you lived in this area and walked by these old trees four or five days a week, and they were a part of your life, you might feel differently. Our community spent several million dollars a few years back to buy DNR land that was about to be logged, to keep it in 2nd growth forest and preserve the benefits that it provides to the island population as a whole. I'm more than glad to give up a tiny fraction of my "personal liberties" to increase the odds that some a$*h^le doesn't cut down a 75-year old big leaf maple.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm more than glad to give up a tiny fraction of my "personal liberties" to increase the odds that some a$*h^le doesn't cut down a 75-year old big leaf maple.
Disagree, I build furniture, I don't worship trees. When a tree is more important in your view than the basic rights of your neighbors to go about their business without a score card to keep track of what can and cant be done, it's sad.
When a tree is more important in your view than the basic rights of your neighbors to go about their business without a score card to keep track of what can and cant be done, it's sad.
While I'm all for keeping legislation to a minimum, I honestly believe that given the nature of the theft, anything that prevents it can only be a good thing. How else can you ensure that a tree on a truck is being moved legitimately... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I just found the legislative verbage that constitues the new law. Man, I'm not good at wading through that stuff! Anyway, it appears that the "specialty wood" is being added to an already existing law that was inacted to protect the forests around here from people collecting holly, garland materials, salal, mushrooms, etc. Were this law not in place, there would be thousands of people (literally thousands) wandering around the forests of the Great Northwest raping them of anything sellable, especially around the holidays.
We're not talking about a few people decorating their personal space for pleasure -- collecting these plants and plant parts to sell is a huge business in the northwest and it has to be controlled. There is an endless parade of people who want to make an unregulated and untaxed buck in this country, our natural resources be damned, so anyone who thinks there's no need to regulate it is sadly oblivious to reality.
I don't "worship" trees either, so please don't get carried away misinterpreting what I've written here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Bioman,
I couldn't agree with you more about the over-regulation of what we percieve as a free society slowly slipping toward some kind of government dominated state where freedom is conditional.
However I think you have to appreciate the difference here between personal freedoms and environmental protection. I personally do not agree with not be able to cut down your own trees without a permit but what we're talking about here is transportation. This is a non-invasive way to regulate the harvest of possibly stolen lumber without invading ones personal rights or privacies. It's just a simple permit like any other.
I live in Mexico because in my own country (Canada) I felt that the people no longer rule through democracy and we have lost many personal freedoms. Mexico is a great nation where the people are truly free to do as they please but this also comes at a cost. Here the forests are destroyed without the checks and balances there should be. On a recent trip to Brasil I saw what this causes when taken to extremes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a tree hugger or an environmental extremist, but it's good to keep things in check for the greater good and a sustainable future.
Apart from that, if somebody had the b@!!& to actually steal a tree off of my land I would have to go with the Singapore standard: first one finger, then two, then the whole hand. I'm guessin they'd think twice about stealing again after the first finger.
Brian
I think we basically agree.
Hey Bioman,Pehaps I misunderstand the new ordinance but, how does this hurt anyone who's not a thief, or a fence? I do understand that civil liberties are erroded slowly, and not by large, easily identifiable floods, but isn't the theft of someone's 100 year old tree also an infringement?Is the inconvenience of obtaining the proper permit an infringement? If so, how do you balance that against the irrepairable loss of the man's trees? Would you feel different if the trees were your's? Would if be different if someone stole water from an irregation channel without a permit, or opened an illegal strip mine on your property?I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to examine who the real victim is in this case, and who the real villan is. I agree that well meaning legislators, who want to appear "pro active" often err on the side of patchwork fixes. But I also place a pretty high priority on the protection of personal property as well.On balance, I'm appreciative of the fact that something positive was done. Doing nothing is also a course of action, and is a whole 'nother slippery slope.Tom
Golly, if this chat does not open a variety of worm cans.
I think back to the 50,60 and 70's, we could pretty well do as we pleased. If you needed a new septic tank you just went out and dug one. It really did not matter if you did it on top of a aquafier. If it did not work and just over flowed into the barditch so what. In many rural areas the effects were not to great because there were not many people. Since then three Macdonalds have moved into town with enough people to suppot them. Now the septic tank becomes an issue. As much as we hated paying for the permits we grudgingly accepted the theory of the need. During that time I don't remember being selfish and we were certainly taught not to steal.
As time went by it seems that this became a society predisposed to disposables. Walmart mentality if you please. We bought something at the Walmart, it broke, it was thrown away. So goes our environment, there is a big tree worth big bucks, we spot it today and steal it tonight. If it sits to long before it gets milled and spoils,we go steal another one.
I am not a tree hugger, but recently every where I go I support people that are. In Virginia I suopported Save The Chesapeake. I speak hotly about how San Antonio Texas depletes the Edwards Aquiefer. I hate waste, recently I have been working in Florida. I have seen mountains of shredded trees four stories tall that were burned. The shredded material was generated at a great cost to us and it was burned. Oak trees you could not reach around wasted.
"If you needed a new septic tank you just went out and dug one." No kidding. We have virtually lost an entire portion of the Puget Sound (Hood Canal area) because of the lack of regulation of septic systems back then. The oxygen level has dropped so low in the Hood Canal area that the sea life can't survive. Research indicated it is largely due to leaky and insufficient septic systems. Problem is, since these weren't ever permitted, it's very difficult to track them down and get the problems solved. Health department is working on it.......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey, remember he's in another place and doesn't see the problems that are ocurring around in the Pacific NorthWest. It might be another story if it were his trees(i.e. future retirement) that were cut down only to claim the prized portions with the rest left to rot away. This is the same for the BIG timber outfits that tresspass and rape the old growth forests. Their fines are pennies on the dollar compared to the what they profit.
Nor do I want to be told what I can and can't cut on my property(right now there is not a single tree standing). When I lived in SoCal, we were in the process of buying a lot in a place called Silverado Canyon. We were warned by our agent to get approval for building prior to completing the sale. Well, we were told we couldn't cut down two Calif. live oaks and this was the only place that a home could be put on the property(uphill slope with one buildable pad). We backed out of the deal. Almost 15 years later, the lot was still for sale.
By the way, end of the month... OK to deposit check??? Call me if OK or not
You finished my point very nicely.
I agree. The police already scan every license plate they can to obtain info on the driver, on most major roads speed limit laws are ignored by police, this enables them to pull anyone over they want, there is seat belt laws, and road checks, headlightds in the rain, now, anyone can be pulled over "asked" for your papers and your special permit just because you have a hunk of wood. Give it a rest already. I'm with you on the tree trimmers. They can be pulled over and hasseled at will, just for doing there job.
Forest Girl,
Wow, Maple here is so common as to be nearly dirt! I've got to cut one down that's been growing thru my deck (actually the deck was built around it) I plan on turning it into firewood, since maple is so cheap..
Fenchy, we have many, many Big Leaf Maples too -- and thousands more spring up every year (probably to be eaten by deer I'd guess). We're not talking about your basic 8-inch tree here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Braggart.
ship some of that dirt this way - especially if it is hard maple - I need some.
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Rick,
you missed your chance, last week (or was it the week before) I gave away about a thousand bd.ft. of maple and a thousand bd.ft. of cherry..
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