In the latest issue of another woodworking mag, Ian Kirby makes some “interesting” assertions regarding breadboard ends. I was wondering what you all think about his statements that:
1. breadboard ends do nothing to prevent a panel from cupping, and instead are merely a bogus idea that we woodworkers continue to do for purely aesthetic reasons
2. hand plow planes cannot make stopped grooves – he offers this as an explanation for why early breadboard ends had through grooves.
Personally, while I generally like Kirby, I disagree with both these statements. I think breadboard ends are less effective than cleats (whether applied to the surface of a panel such as the underside of chest top or incorporated into the panel such as with sliding dovetail strips), but they do have some effect in limiting cupping.
Also, while I have rarely had occassion to do so, I believe I either have or could make a stopped groove with my Stanley plow plane (248 I think). I might have to finish up the last bit on one end by turning my plane around and working against the grain to acheive full depth – or maybe clean that bit out with a chisel, but the bottom line is that it is far from impossible. I’m also no furniture historian, but don’t many pre-industrial frame and panel doors, for example, have panels floating in stopped grooves (presumably cut with a plow plane)?
Replies
Hi Samson,
Stopped grooves are problematic with a plow, even an 043 which has very little toe.
Using a haunched mortise and tenon with the groove lined up to the haunch is how one can do it, though, and is the method I employ. One benefit is it also defines the mortise width, which mearly is deepened.
I think breadboard ends have minimal, but still some, effect on cupping when used exclusively. Cupping incurs tremendous force. But I look at breadboard ends as a part of a "system" to control cupping. For main effect, I use cleats with slotted srew holes for expansion and breadboard ends to control the little cupping which may occur outside the apron or carcass area--the overhang. That is, the above is how I do it and the why I do it that way when I do breadboard ends which isn't often.
Take care, Mike
Would you email me offline with that magazine and issue number? I'd like to read that article.
I wrote something similar a few weeks ago and I know many folks disagreed. I'm an engineer and I don't see the bread board end reacting cupping. It just doesn't seem to have the section properties.... Rather, I argued, it is there to cover the end grain. The ultimate end grain sealer and as that, it would help prevent cupping.
Its true you can't make a stopped groove of any practical depth with a plow plane. I've seen guys run the cutter beyond the skate, turning the plow into a sort of OWT/router plane.
Stopped grooves are vey rare in the period work I have seen.
Adam
Okay, tried the plow plane thing. Ahhhhh - the skate. It all comes back, the skate gets in the way. That said, it's possible as the pics below of my quick and dirty effort on a scrap showed me. It's not hard, but a bit of pain as you can only get a shallow groove with the skate in place. You then need to chisel it deeper at the ends to accomodate the part of the skate that will ride in that portion. Fairly quick work, especially if you are just doing two breadboard ends. I stand corrected. A plow plane alone can't make a deep stopped groove, but with a chisel to help, it's reasonably easily done. (I took a couple pics, but for some reason the attach files button is unresonsive.)
Edited 9/11/2006 9:56 pm ET by Samson
And a nice job too!
Breadboard ends are an easy way of adding depth to shallow tops, with long grain bits added below sides some shape that otherwise would be missing may be obtained. Adding thickness to end grain when in your cups is not so good.
Did Adam mean AVE or OYVEY? (Apologies to all).
the pics of my quick effort:
http://home.comcast.net/~samson141/groove_2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~samson141/groove.jpg
I have just started using a plow plane (the wooden one from Japan Woodworker). I am curious about the one in your photos. Is it new and if so where did you get it? Is it by any chance the Anant?
Edited 9/12/2006 12:15 pm ET by dherzig
My plow plane is a Stanley 248A, which I believe is no longer made. The A suffix means it came with a wider range of cutters. I got it many years ago, either from Patrick Leach (http://www.supertool.com) or eBay. The reason I sought one out was that Aldren Watson recommended it in his book "Handtools; Their Ways and Workings" - still one of the most pratical and useful hand tool books I've ever read:
http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Tools-Their-Ways-Workings/dp/0393322769/sr=1-4/qid=1158078464/ref=sr_1_4/102-4637673-7113751?ie=UTF8&s=books
When I first started out WWing, I had no space where I could use the big dust generators, so I bought and learned to use several hand tools.
Edited 9/12/2006 12:34 pm ET by Samson
Edited 9/12/2006 12:35 pm ET by Samson
...Ian Kirby makes some "interesting" assertions regarding breadboard ends. ....
2. hand plow planes cannot make stopped grooves - he offers this as an explanation for why early breadboard ends had through grooves.
Hi Samson
I think that the problem one will experience with cutting grooves with a plough/plow plane is that one can only plane with the grain, hence there is only one side that will allow planing to any depth. To reverse the direction of the cut will lead to considerable tearout. Therefore there is a limit to the percentage of the stopped groove that can be cut before a chisel or router plane needs to be used. By comparison a through groove can be planed in one action, and so all can be done with the grain. I would really like to know your technique with the plough plane.
It is not just breadboard ends that would be so affected. This situation also occurs when building boxes/drawers with through dovetails all all corners. I will make stopped grooves by scribing the outer lines, chiseling out most of the waste, then cleaning up with a router plane. This permits one to go against the grain as well.
Here are a few pics (from my review of the LV Router plane):
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,
"cutting grooves with a plough/plow plane is that one can only plane with the grain, hence there is only one side that will allow planing to any depth. To reverse the direction of the cut will lead to considerable tearout."
I'm at a loss to think of a situation where I'd use a stopped groove, where tearout in the bottom would matter. Usually there is a panel filling it, no?
Regards,
Ray Pine
G-Day, Derek. I don't know if my method is much better than yours, but I'm happy to tell you what I did. I was really just trying to see if it was possible, and if not, why not.
- To start I used the plow plane to make a shallow groove, noting where the blade was and stopping the stroke at the appropriate points. The plow plane will make a shallow groove because the blade extends below the skate a bit and as some material is removed it allows the skate to proceed deeper, though it tends to be an uneven depth - deepest at the middle.
- even though the groove is now shallow, at least the plane has defined the groove edges at the surface cleanly (i.e., the portion of the groove where a neat and uniform job is most important)
- I should also say, that I didn't have much problem going against the grain with a sharp blade. That said, there may be some woods where it's more of a problem. As Ray mentions, perfectly smooth groove bottoms are not usually crucial for things like breadboard ends, drawer bottoms, and frame and stile door panels. One thing to simplify the process, however, if you want a centered groove, use a slightly undersized (narrow) blade (that way you acheive full width as you plane in both directions and never have to move the fence).
- once the shallow groove has taken shape, I chisel out (deepen) around 4 to 6 inches of each end (whatever length is necessary to accomodate the portion of the skate that is in front of or behind the blade). With that done, the plow will bring the middle to full depth without much fuss.
It's not very complicated, really. The fussing with the chisel actually goes very quickly as the width has already been determined and all one needs do is deepen the groove over a relatively short span.
I think that the problem one will experience with cutting grooves with a plough/plow plane is that one can only plane with the grain, hence there is only one side that will allow planing to any depth.
Wouldn't that be where project layout and noting grain direction would come into play? I think that setting up to plane a groove and realizing that the whole thing must go against the grain, perhaps because other joinery has already been cut, would represent a gross error at the layout stage of the project. Certainly, grain can switch and that's where incising lines will keep the top clean. As Ray pointed out, the bottom doesn't usually matter.
It is simple enough to chop the stopped end of the groove with a chisel and plane into the already chopped portion (with the grain if layout was paid attention to). The distance to chop is the length from the nose of the plough the the front of the cutter plus a little. If one doesn't chop this much then the nose of the plough plane rides up and the groove can't be cut to depth. The fix is to simply chop out a little more then start planing again.
The scoring wheel on a Tite-Mark gauge will make nice, deep lines to get the process started.
Edited 9/13/2006 10:32 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Just reading this thread and find the whole discussion a little bizarre, well at least from my perspective. So will share my thoughts for what they are worth. I've been making furniture professionally in Europe for more than 40yrs, lost count of the tables I've made in that time with breadboard ends. None depended on a grove. A breadboard end is a dry joint attached to the table by tenons with haunching between the tenons. The breadboard end is attached by dry dowel pins, ofset to draw the end up tight to the table end. The central tenon has a round hole, holding the breadboard end central while all others have an elongated hole to allow seasonal movement. Haunching may or may not be visible at each end, personally I prefer a closed end. The operation, as is evidenced by the many tables that I have restored, is made with a mortice chisel. Many refectory tables have heavy tops, up to 4 inches thick which are simply held in place by their weight. The breadboard end will have considerable effect in holding these tops in plane. Cupping of individual boards is addressed either by using quarter cut stock or opposing each boards grain to its neighbours. The breadboards ends also prove invaluable at reducing splintering of end grain through the onslaught of time and use. Plough planes cant make short stopped groves, but they can be quite useful for hogging out the center of long grooves, even the first cut or two on a shortish one, the rest is easily accomplished with router or chisel.
I just have one suggestion.I have hogged out both sides,by whatever method, and then used multi layered ply glued into the breadboard.My theory is that combo really stiffens the end board and increases the chance of reducing cupping
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