I am just starting my first real home shop and I am trying to decide on which tablesaw to buy. I have bought into the idea of “buy the best and cry only once”. I have been looking at the “Sawstop” because safety is important enough for me to seriously consider this saw.(I hope to have other family members use the saw) Does anyone have any experience using this saw and has anyone had any input about any accidental “stops”. It is a great idea if it only trips when a finger is in the way. I would be really upset if it tripped do to high humidity or a drop of sweat on the table. (I live in Central Texas and even though my shop will have A/C I don’t want to buy new blades every so often. I only want to cry once…for cost of the saw) I would appreciate any input in deciding which saw to buy.
Thanks,
Edited 1/10/2007 1:32 pm ET by Bg976
Replies
You should try a search on Sawstop in the forum. Also do a search on the topic at http://www.sawmillcreek.org There's a number of folks there with them so you can read about some of the things they experienced.
I find it easier to look up a topic on a forum. Pretty much all topics have asked before so there are few new questions, only new people asking old questions. Sawmill Creek has a better search engine for the site. There's at least a hundred forums on wood related stuff.
Edited 1/10/2007 3:02 pm ET by RickL
....Yes... I'm waiting for the contractor saw to be available and then I'll buy it. My fingers are worth more than $2000.
exactly... gosh microsurgery is superexpensive. I would buy one in a second if they made a portable one....
The web site looks good, I appreciate the info.
Bg
I'm going to pay more attention to Sawstop and their quality. At this moment, I'm healing on my left thumb from an accident on 1-2 07. Sliced it across the fingerprint side, between the joint and the tip. Fortunately, it didn't hit the bone, but the Sawstop would have saved me the grief and the feeling in the tip of it, on top of the savings in the ER. So it is surely a consideration from here on out. I've got a Unisaw, circa 1990, and love it. But I do like the idea of limiting accidents.
Here's one person wishing they'd already had one.
I would be interested in the amount of miss fires. I read an article on the saw and the review said they had a miss fire during the test so it does happen I guess. And while I think this is a great Idea if we have to make safety so expensive that I can afford to buy it or to keep it (I can only afford so many dado blades) then it really is not much use. But I have not heard anything about this. It is like no one wants to talk about it. So either this does not happen much or their are not enough in use to get a good sample from or something.
I wish them all the luck with this saw in the world. I would like nothing better then this to work well and get to the point that everyone can afford it but this is pretty fancy tech and I am always a bit wary of what people say when it is a brand new design.
Also someone said something about the cartridges are supposed to be replaced ever so often has anyone confirmed that and if so what is the cost and how often?
Doug Meyer
Thanks for the feedback, hope your hand heals quickly, I will go with the Sawstop.
Bg
Yes.
I use one daily in a commercial shop in Florida that has no A/C. We have had it for over 9 mos. and use the heck out of it. In my opinion, it is the best "Unisaw style" clone out there. I have used Delta, Powermatic, and Jet machines (for the most part) in the past and this saw is superior to those.
We have had the mechanism trip twice. The first time was on some fire-treated plywood that we think was too wet. That cartridge got tossed in the trash before I had a chance to send it to Sawstop for analysis to see exactly what went on there. I had correspondence from them and they would have gladly analyzed the unit . I was told that had it been found that the unit was defective they would have replaced it. We'll never know on that one......The second time an employee re-installed the blade guard incorrectly and it rattled free and made contact with the blade causing it to trip. My experience so far would lead me to believe that false trips would be so rare as to not be a real concern. Again, we use the saw A LOT. It's new technology so I wouldn't say never.
We haven't had an incident where flesh made contact and I hope we never do. I do not approach the use of the saw any differently knowing the mechanism is in there. After a while you kind of forget it is there focusing more on the work than the tool.
I am told the cartridges are about $80 to replace and I can say from personal experience that it does ruin the blade when it trips.
Hope this info is helpful,
-Paul
OK to start off let me say that I realize that you are a pro shop and thus most likely use your saw more in a week the us amateurs will use in a year. But if you have had the saw for less then a year and you have had it fire twice. That seams high. At a cost of between $60 and $80 for the cartridge and just guessing here of between 40 and say 120 (using ball park numbers) for the blade that comes to something like between $200 and $400 a year in maintenance. And if one of those was using something like a dado it would be even more.
Now I understand that a trip to the ER will be more and the pain and everything so don't get me wrong but that seams like a lot. This may make more sense for pro's that use it so much and may help with insurance I am not sure and I think that schools and places that give seminars and such would be smart to get this as the cost would be justified becuse of all the beginners using it, but I am not so sure about the average hobbiest. With out the liability issue it may be harder to justify the cost.
At this point I would have to say that I at least would have issues buying a tool that I knew had that kind of expenses built into it. I wonder how may saws they have sold and how many trips have happened. I don't think we will get those numbers (nor do I think they should have to give them out as they are a privet company) but it would be interesting to see how may saws have been used for how many months and divide the number of firings into that to get a feel for how often the safety goes off.
Oh well I guess until this saw gets a lot more common we will not really be able to tell.
One questions to those that own this saw, can you look into the manual and tell us if it recommends replacing the cartridge and if so how often? I have heard from some that it does and that it says to do it ever year, others have said that the cartridge will tell you when and others that say you only need to replace it if it goes bad and that the indicator is for that. So for those of you with this saw, what is the truth on this as far as the manual goes?
Well good luck with this saw and from what I have heard even with out the break it is a nice saw, so I expect it will be a good investment.
Doug Meyer
I say go for it. As soon as I can justify spending that much on woodworking equipment and can convince the LOML that I need one, a SawStop will be in my shop. Hopefully by then other companies will have come up with the same technology, or perhaps something better, and the price will drop some. Even at the present price it is a good buy for the serious woodworker.
>> But if you have had the saw for less then a year and you have had it fire twice. That seams high.Doug, I wouldn't characterize what Pablo wrote as "mis-fires". Rather, it was mis-use. Clearly you can not saw overly wet wood with the SawStop unless you disable the sensing mechanism. The directions warn about this. "Wet" means dripping wet like newly pressure treated lumber. You can even "test" the wood using the saw before you go to cut it. On the second incident, Pablo said that the saw blade cover contacted the blade due to improper assembly. I would think that this is goodness not badness.I had the chance to play with the SawStop about a year ago. I used it for about 4-5 hours and was very impressed with the overall quality as a saw. It is clearly head and shoulders above other tablesaws even ignoring the unique safety features.Howie.........
Ok then let me rephrase. So because of simple mistakes on the part of the user this saw has cost between $200 and $400 in OOPS moments so far. End result is that if this type of thing is common this could get costly fast.
For what ever reason, and just because it is in the manual does not make it a good thing. This type of tech being very new has the potential to be a very good thing, but it is new so it can be a problem. This is what you have to watch out for with new tech. The teething issues can be costly. That is why I was wondering how often these things are firing off for the average user. It is not necessarily a deal breaker but it is a expense that the users will have to keep in mind.
And as I said it sounds from what I have heard about it like this is a nice saw even if you turn the break off.
Doug Meyer
(disclaimer: I haven't read this thread carefully). There's not much excuse for "accidentally" fireing the safety mechanism on a SawStop. My understanding is, you can "test" any questionable piece of wood prior to firing up the saw by touching it to the blade and watching an indicator light. Am I wrong about this?
The safety mechanism can by bypassed for anything that you know will trigger the mechanism.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/11/2007 1:33 pm by forestgirl
That is true from what I have heard. If you test a piece of wood it should not fire. And if everything is put together right it should not fire. But then again that is why it is an accident. You should not hit the blade with your hand either. This saw is designed to protect against one type of accident (cutting yourself) but I was wondering if it makes another type of accident happen (destroying a saw blade and firing the cartridge) and if so how common it is? Not saying that this is a bad trade off I just like to go into this type of thing with my eyes open.
Kind of like down hill ski boots. They were designed to protect against broken ankles and they do, but they make blown out knees a lot more common. Not enough of a reason to go back to the old boots but it is an issue.
Doug Meyer
John White (FWW shop manager) uses a SawStop in their shop. You can drop him a line, maybe he'll stop by. [email protected] forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
saw stop $2000 plus
Fingers and hand priceless
PS: Although it's not necessarily recommended, not everyone replaces a blade when the brake has been triggered. At least one person here has reported a brake-trigger with no apparent damage to the teeth or body of the blade. But others have recommended to at least have the blade examined by the manufacturer before re-using it. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
I may have been the one to report on blade damage due to the saw firing. The first time it occurred there appeared to be no damage to the blade. The second time there were a couple of teeth missing. In both cases we discarded the blades. The general feeling at the shop was that as a potential safety issue it was our best course of action. Safety is a BIG deal with my employer(as it should be)so we don't bat an eye when expenses are incurred as a result. Just another cost of doing business, I guess.
Thanks,
-Paul
To all,
The last couple responses from those that have and do use this saw have given more actual info on the saw then all the reviews I have seen combined. This is the type of information that I was thinking that we as the intendment audience need. This is the type of thing I think that the reviews needed to cover. It is one thing for Saw Stop to say something it is another for someone that is not part of saw stop to say it.
I was not intending to come across as if I was against this tool or that I thought it was behaving badly. I was trying to point out that we (those of use that don't own one) did not have valid info to deside about this saw as their had been firings of the saw when not in contact with a person. That these firings happened to people that were reviewing the tool (or at least to the saw that was being reviewed) and that we were not getting much info on this. Now if the reason that reviewers are avoiding comments on the saw firing when not in contact with a person is to give the saw the benefit of the doubt that is fine but being as the review of other new tools have tended to be harsh this just did not jibe.
Anyway all I was saying is that we did not have all the info that was available and that with out a true review of the break which we really have not had, we could not in truth, judge if this saw is a good buy or not based on the break as we do not/or did not know. If the info that John provided now was provided in the reviews I have read I don't think this would have been as much of an issue. I just think that for what ever reason the traditional sources of info (the magazine reviews) have been very shallow when talking about this new revolutionary devise.
In short (ok a little late for that but..) I think the main questions that this saw brings up that need to be talked about if you are going to review this saw or if you want to make an informed judgement are (and these are just the ones particular to this saw and do not include those issues that need to be talked about with all saws)
How does the break work, How do you lock it out, when do you need to lock it out, how simple is it to change between dado and normal, how expensive are the cartridges, how fast can you get a new cartridge (if it fires do I need one on hand or can I get one in a day or two) what if anything will make the saw not detect contact with a person. What types of things will trigger it other then people. Damage to the blade when fired.
These are things that really need to be reviewed and have not been. Ok John has touched on them just now, but I am talking in a review article. I understand that this is a new type of item and that the magazines are not used to this, but if you are going to review it then either do it right or admit that you did not really review the break. In truth I am not sure if any magazine short of consumer reports is in a position to review this as it would take a lot of time and would most likely result in several firings of the break so that it can be determined what the limits are. This is the problem. The only ones that have done any of these test is the company that made the saw. So we really do not have an impartial sourse on this. While I have nothing against the company I would be leary of trusting everything they say, just as I would be if another company that makes saws cam out and said the break was no good. Both companies have thier onw intersts at hand.
Well I think we will have to sit back and see what happens, thanks to John and the others that have provided info on what caused the saw to fire. This does help us understand this saw a bit better. Now the only real concern that I have is about the blades. I am a bit concerned about using a blade after it was slapped buy the break. I would hate to save my finger only to have a tooth come off and hit me someplace. I have no idea how you would test this, nor do I have any info on it but it is a scary thought, and unless/until someone looks into this with the knowledge to make an informed study I personally would avoid using the blade again. Maybe the folks at FWW will look into this a bit more and give us a follow up. Kind of like some of the car magazines do, with the year long review. They could touch on what they have found out about the saw and the break and then look into the issue with the blades. Talk to the manufacturers. Measer the blade to see if it distorted, that kind of thing.
Well once again thanks to all that provided info on this. I truly believe that this is an example of the best of this forum where people that have knowledge freely give it out to the rest of us so that we can make informed choices and not just blind guesses.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
I think your questions are valid, and for the most part I would classify as due dilligence prior to pruchasing a saw. However your arguing to us, when most of the information is readily available on the Sawstop web page.
http://www.sawstop.com
To break it down: The mechanism monitors a chage in the blade, when anything touches the blade there is a charge drop. Wood being an insulator, does not conduct so the charge drop. Us being conductors induce a large drop. this large drop sets off teh brake in milliseconds. It's important to note here that any conductor will set the saw off. So wet wood, metals, hot dogs... there are all things you will want to avoid cutting with the brake on.
To lock it out there is a switch. Blade changes work the same, when going to a dado the cartridge must be swapped as well. Cartridge swaps take less time the blade changes. A note about dado blades, the ones with a plastic center will not work as the act as an insulator.
Cartridges are $80-$100, and should be available where you bought the saw. It would be 45 minutes round trip... just enough time to cool my nerves...
Having seen the blades after the demo... I would not reuse the blade...
Buster,
I understand that a lot of this info is available on the web page of the company. But first off my point was that in a review we should be provided more information as I think the review should stand on it's own. Then we have the issue that I really am not an electrician so I have limited knowledge of how this works. I was always taught that electricity has to be able to flow or it does nothing. That is why guys working on high tension lines out west do so from helicopters as they are not grounded and are thus safer. Perhaps this is such a minor amount of electricity that the human body can act as a ground of perhaps this is an area that is beyond my knowledge. So this is another reason that the review should get into this. And, last but not least, while I have no doubt that SawStop is an honorable company I have less faith in the info that is directly provided buy the company then I have in things that a so called independent review can provide.
Although even those can be off. Witness the consumers report article on the Pontiac Ferio that said that the car had extensive out body rust issues. Pretty good for a car made out of glorified plastic. But still in general I think that most reviews try to give an honest opinion with in the limits of the reviewer. I just think they need to cover more areas with this saw then they have been. And I will admit this is a harder area to cover and it is an area that the magazines are not at this point really set up for as this is the first time they have in general had to deal with this type of tech.
Doug Meyer
It's been many years since I did EM theory... But I believe you are correct. Any reasonably sized conductor should act as a large enough charge sink (it will cause a large enough drop to fire the charge). Hence we set it off but not a staple in the wood (as noted earlier in this thread). So it should not matter if you are on a rubber mat or not.
There are lots of articles about this from other magazines and reviews on the web.
...while I have no doubt that SawStop is an honorable company...
If you're really interested in the saw I suggest looking back at some of the older threads. Usually they have been sidetracked by the ethical question of Sawstop trying to mandate this type of safety device on all saws. It's an interesting read, and I suspect your conclusion has as much to do with politcal viewpoint as ethics!
OK the idea of mandating this was not a good one but we will leave that point alone as other threads have talked about that.
Doug Meyer
...we will leave that point alone as other threads have talked about that.
Good idea.
Heh their are only so many dead horse I want to flog.
Doug Meyer
My two cents,i would think that a vast majority of table saw accidents occur because the blade guard and splitter are removed.My friend has a Powermatic PM2000 he keeps guard & splitter in place it looks very safe and operates very well. So my choice is the PM2000 all comments are welcome. visit http://homepage.mac.com/walterc530/
My two cents,i would think that a vast majority of table saw accidents occur because the blade guard and splitter are removed.My friend has a Powermatic PM2000 he keeps guard & splitter in place it looks very safe and operates very well.
I have to agree. The sawstop does nothing to prevent accidents, only reduces the severity of them. I think when we get discussing Sawstop we neglect to mention the basics. First a solid understanding of how to use the saw safely, second a good amount of respect for the saw, and third use the safety gear (splitter, guard, push sticks). The Sawstop adds the next step, an active safety device. The Sawstop saw has a very similar guard system as the Powermatic. Both saws have a superior splitter/guard system to most other 10" saws out there...
Powermatic isn't available here, so I don't know what the price comparison is. But if I were upgrading tomorrow, I would be taking a closer look at it.
Buster
Buster where is here?
Calgary, Canada
I probably should say readily available. I suppose I could order it in from the US, but the costs tend to escalate rapidly. Not that Sawstop is any cheaper.
We don't get too many of the same brands here it seems. Powermatic (and Jet) and Grizzly are probably the two most noticable. Grizzly has a distribution deal with Craftex tools (Busy Bee Tools) so we can not order them in.
It's not so bad. I can buy General, and General International locally.
I think I would always trade off a misfire with a non-fire when it should have fired. So would SawStop. The liablility for them and the operator is not with a misfire but with a non-fire.Howie.........
True, It is just that this is something that has to be considered when looking at this saw. Not that it is a bad issue just that it is an issue to think about. Kind of like the fact that being a cabinet saw it is hard to move to a job site. Not an issue as such just something that you need to think about.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
I see where your coming from. I think it's unreasonable to say that you will have X number of trips a year. Two accidental trips in a cabinet shop in a year isn't that bad. Considering that it's used much more often, used by many people, and everybody may not be fully aware of the saws features and limitation.
To me it's extra insurance. Liek a home alarm, sure it alerts you and protects you from break-ins. But every once in awhile the cat sets off the alarm when your not home, and your cell phone is dead... $50 charge later...
So in the end: Yes, the saw costs more and occasionally (but rarely) the feature trips and ruins a blade. On the brighter side, you get to decide if you are willing to pay for this type of insurance.
I'll bet your workers comp guy might consider a reduction in premiums.I have a neighbor who is a workers comp claims manager, he looked at their sight and said he may suggest some thing to the upper (national) claims management. They can crunch their numbers and if warranted make some adjustments.
I was one of the first owners of a Sawstop and am totally happy with my purchase. Not only is the saw an excellent piece of equipment, but the support and dedication of the people at Sawstop is second to none.
I would ask you, if you are questioning the purchase, would you forgo health, life of liability insurance because you probabily will not need it? Think of the cost difference as a one time insurance premium.
I'm not a SawStop owner, so I can't really comment much on the saw, but I do want to point out that, of the "two simple mistakes" described by a previous poster, one could have been pretty dangerous. Sure, cutting wet wood is a harmless error. When the brake goes off, it's a "DOH! Moment". But having the guard hit the blade could be a pretty serious affair and I would consider that one a "Phew! Moment". I.e., chalk one up for the safety gear that just maybe saved a trip to the hospital or eye doctor. So, when doing your math, I suggest you account for only one accidental misfire, not two.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Ok the thing I am trying to get to is that I have read here about misfires, I have read on another forum about misfires and in one of the three reviews I have read about misfires. And in all cases the same attitude was taken. Oh it was just one misfire. Ok, but how often does this happen? If everyone just chalks it up and does not look at it then we really don't know.
Is one a year acceptable. I would tend to say yes, but it is on the high side. IS one a month acceptable? I don't know. The point is in the limited amount I have seen on this saw the most important feature of the saw, it's break, has for various reasons not worked right. And this is getting little attention. Seams odd to me. If I buy a convertible and it is a great car but the top keeps getting stuck half way up or down then this is something I would like to know about in a review. It is after all an important reason for me to buy that car. (Yes this is a real life example, one car mag reviewed a car that in one years time they had to have the roof fixed I think three times and then tossed it off as not an issue)
So all I am saying is do we have any info on this? Maybe some people don't have an issue with the misfires, and to them the cost of this is not an issue. But I think that some people will have an issue with it, depending on how often it happens. And My point that was replied to about how often it happened was made so people would understand that I realize that two mishaps in 9 months in a pro shop may mean nothing to a hobbyist. But then again who knows?
No one seams to want to talk about this. Same goes for if the cartridge needs to be replaced on a regular basis. One review said it did but passed over this in only one sentence or so and did not really say how often. So this is an issue that I think needs to be addressed. In short I think that the people talking about the saw online and in print need to give the break mechanism more attention, so the rest of us know what we are getting. If their is a cost to maintain this fine, but let us know the cost.
Oh and as for the simple mistake and the blade guard issue. I guess it depends on why the blade guard was put on wrong. Was it something that was simple to put on and someone made a big boo boo or was it a pain to put on and this is something that can happen if you don't do it just right. (if so then this brings up a question about the design) So being as I did not know one way or the other I just decided to leave it as a accidental miss fire and not try to second guess why it was installed wrong.
I am not trying to pass judgment on this saw, and I think the concept is great. I just think that we need to talk a bit more about the dependability of the break system as this is the whole reason for the saw to exist. And pretty much everything I have read talks about the saw itself and does not say much about the break. Maybe this is because we are used to testing saws but no one knows much about this system as it is complicated and new. I don't know, but when you review a saw and it accidentally miss fires into a dado blade (If I recall, this is what it went off on) and you just mention this in passing I think you are not doing a good job of reviewing the item, at least from a magazine that is doing an article.
And yes I pay for insurance but I also ask the cost before I sign the contract. That is all I am asking here.
Just my 2 cents worth. And everyone has to decide these issues for themselves. I am just asking that we look into the numbers a bit more and not shrug it off as something that happened to someone else because (pick one or more) he uses his saw more, or he did not stop and think, or he cut wet wood when he should not, or he put the guard on wrong or what ever. The break is the reason for the saw, lets look at the break and see how often it does or does not work right.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
It would be great if someone from Saw-Stop would chime in on this. I have not been a member of this forum for long and this is about the 10th different post that I have seen about the pros and cons about this saw. Not that I am about to run out and buy one any time in the near future, I have learned in the past that one must pay attention to the task at hand and use common sense when using a table saw. Yes I do have all 10 fingers right down to the tips with nothing missing.
Greg
Edited 1/12/2007 9:53 am ET by GW52
Doug you're on the right track and I agree: Some real numbers would be nice to have. If I were in the market for a cabinet saw I would look hard at the saw stop. I'm the only one in the family who hasn't nipped a digit on a tablesaw. And, I would like to die with all my pieces parts still attached. Actually no one has actually lost any parts yet, but the parts they were left with have never worked right since.
I think the reason the reviewers just sort of graze the issue, is they really aren't competent to do an analysis of the brake system. I understand how it works, but haven't seen any real reliability test information. It shouldn't miss fire often, just because it is based on pretty proven technologies. It derived from the explosive bolt systems that have been part of the egress system for military aircraft and the space program, for at least fifty, if not sixty years. I know that they were used in the Mercury program, and were reliable enough that there was serious skepticism about Gus Grissom's claim that the hatch on Liberty Bell 7, spontaneously blew and opened the hatch resulting in the capsule sinking. That was in 1962. I would have to believe that if anything the technology is better today than then. The trigger system is again pretty reliable technology that has been around since the late sixties, at least.
From this I would surmise, that vast the majority of "accidental discharges are the result of stupid human tricks, and not due to a fault in the brake system itself.
I know that there is a "shelf Life" for the explosive component of the bolt, but I'm not sure how long it is. Any body here who was involved in them while in the military?
The SawStop does not use an explosive to trigger the brake. The power for the brake comes from a very stiff spring that is held in place by a fuse mechanism. When the brake is triggered, an electric current melts the fuse link and the spring releases.
The cartridges have an unlimited life span, there is nothing in the SawStop manual or in my talks with the company to suggest that the cartridges ever need to be replaced just because they have gotten old.
While using a SawStop in the Fine Woodworking shop for the past year we have had the cartridge fire off a few times but none of the incidents were caused by a malfunction of the saw. In each case either something with a lot of metal in it, such as a clamp or an aluminum miter fence, or a finger touched the blade.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Forestgirl, I have to say that you are most likely correct and that this is a close as we will get to useful info for a long time.
I do have a concern though. While I understand that hitting the blade while it is spinning with anything that may trigger the system is a BAD idea, if this has happened "While using a SawStop in the Fine Woodworking shop for the past year we have had the cartridge fire off a few times but none of the incidents were caused by a malfunction of the saw." Then I have to wonder about this. It may not be a malfunction of the saw, and the system may be going off when someone does something stupid. But if the fine people that (I assume) are working in the FWW shop are making enough boo boos to be triggering the system a few times in a year then what about the rest of us? I would hate to run a stable into my good saw blade but I would really hate to do it if instead of just needing to get it sharpened I need to get it replaced. This is the type of thing that has me concerned. I am NOT saying this is design badly or that it just goes boom for no reason. What I am worried about is that your average Joe is going to trigger it fairly often just doing your average dumb stuff.
This is what I would like to see someone look into. Oh and John, thanks for the info on the replacement. Like I said I would have to look into this but I know that someone in one of the magazines said (Not yours if I recall) that the company recommended replacing something to do with this every so often (a year or so if I recall) in order for the sensor or some such to be sure to work right. They did not go into it in much detail though. This lack of detail about the break system is in fact what makes me so nervous about this tool. I would love one of these (If I could afford to replace my saw, at this time) but I would hate to buy something that is new on the market and learn that it still has teething issues. So I wonder at this point if I am not better off to just spend some of the money on other safety devices. I have a father that is getting older and as such is less steady and his eye sight is less then they used to be but until he can't walk he will be in the work shop more days then he is not in it (god bless him) and if this is truly such a great safety devise I may be convinced to save my rubbles and replace the delta with it, but I only have so much I can spend so it remains to be seen where the best use of this money is.
Like I said I wish them all the best and I hope that this works well and that the mark 2 version (when ever then design that) will be even better, I just think that at this point we in the general public are being asked to buy this saw because the concept it really a good one but that we really have little info on how well it does what it is supposed to.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
In each case when the brake was triggered in our shop, it struck skin or a large piece of metal like a clamp on a jig or an aluminum fence. The saw will not be triggered off by running it into a staple.
If you were being reasonably careful, which editors trying to build a prop under deadline pressure often aren't, and only cutting ordinary wood on the saw, which some of the Fine Homebuilding editors weren't, you could quite possibly never trigger the brake. By the way, a blade that has been stopped by the saw isn't destroyed, it only needs three or four teeth replaced, which should cost less than buying a new high quality blade.
SawStop has sold more than 4,000 saws to date and, according to them, they have not had a failure. Of course you can be skeptical of their information, but I have never heard of any reports of serious problems with these saws from any source, and my connections in the woodworking world, because of my job, are pretty extensive.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Edited 1/12/2007 4:18 pm ET by JohnWW
From everything I have read, the break works as advertised. It will fire under any condition that it senses, via electronic feedback, may be contact between the blade and the operator. My understanding of how this works is that the saw monitors and senses any electrical path connecting the operator and the blade. That path can be created by wet material, a metalic object or a hotdog, for example. It seems to me that if you never introduce such a circumstance, you will never have a false (or otherwise) firing. Not ever.
You seem to be asking "How many times a year will *I* do something stupid, other than sticking my hand into the blade (in which case, I WANT the break to fire) that will cause the break to fire?" Only you can answer that one. One poster indicated that under a year's commercial shop use conditions, involving multiple operators and, you seem to agree, under heavier use than you would have, the break fired once for wet wood and once during unsafe, and potentially injury-inflicting, operating conditions. Only you can say if your own habits will introduce break-triggering events more or less often. How often do YOU cut wet wood? How often to YOU run clamps into the blade? How often to YOU touch the blade when the saw is running? How often do YOU crosscut hotdogs? <G> Who knows this other than you? Without such input from you, nobody can answer your question directly. Each user will be different.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
John,
Thanks for the info. This is I think the type of information that people need to be able to judge for themselves if this saw is for them. And truthfully this is the first time that I have seen anyone actually respond with information. Most replies are of the simple nature of Well if you don't mess it up it will work fine. Your post was in my opinion the first I have seen addressing why the thing fired. If it was contact with skin, fine but if something else triggered it I think the informed buyer should be made aware of this. So thank you.
As to the idea that if you don't do something wrong it will not go off. I say phooey. IF you never make a mistake then you don't need it in the first place because their is never a reason for you to get your hand or any other body part into the blade to begin with. So can someone explain why when I ask what causes this to go off and how often is it going off and what are the cost related with it going off I keep getting people saying that if you never make a mistake it will not go off? I understand that, but if you never make a mistake then you don't need it. And if you don't ever need it then why would you buy it? I have only heard of one perfect guy that did wood working and from what I was taught he died about 2000 years ago. Personally I make mistakes and if I can make one and stick a finger in the blade then I can sure forget the wet wood or something else that may trigger the stop.
So I guess the next question is (that I would like a magazine to look into) is what will trigger this? For that matter if it works the way I understand it and that is buy electrical contact made with the body, then what will stop it from triggering. For instance if you are standing on a rubber matte will this effect it? If for some reason you do not have good contact with the table will this make it not work? These are the types of things that we don't (as a group) know about this. But in order to really decide if this is a going to work and b that we want/need this is the info we need to have.
I mean if GM said they had a new car that would protect you against a head on at 100MPH for a total impact speed of 200mph don't you think that someone should test this and not just take GM's word for it? I would think that the reviews would at least look into this and right now I am not seeing that. I am seeing people talk about the saw, say it has the stop, maybe repeat the hot dog story, and say (if they have had a firing) Oh yeah and it fired once while we had it. So until just now when John replied with what he has encountered I am not sure that anyone has had any real information to base the purchase no purchase decision on.
Once again I am not saying it is not a good Idea and I am not saying it is not a good saw. I AM saying that the little I have seen on it glosses over the break and that seams odd as the break is the reason the saw exists.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
To answer some of the questions you raised:
You do not need to be touching the saw with any other part of your body, in addition to touching the blade, to trigger the brake, and it will work even if you are fully insulated from the floor.
Wet wood won't trigger the brake but it will sometimes cause the saw to turn the motor off, without the brake firing, because the sensor is approaching the level that will trigger it to set off the brake. In that case you need to lock out the safety circuit to finish the cut. In our shop we have cut several pieces of green wood on the saw without having to turn off the safety mechanism.
As to what will trigger the brake: body parts, larger metal objects like fences and clamps, specialty plywood with sheet aluminum sandwiched into the plys, wood that has been painted with a metallic paint such as picture frame stock, or the blade striking the brake cartridge or the guard assembly (easily avoided if you are paying attention when installing the blade or guards, which are well designed and very easy to remove and install).
You can also lock out the brake and take a test cut on suspicious material. If the material would have set off the brake, the lights on the control panel will tell you that the stock is too conductive and that you need to do the rest of the cuts with the brake turned off.
By the way, much of what I'm telling you here is covered in the literature from SawStop. Their manuals aren't perfect but they are certainly much better than most.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John, I for one am very impressed with your responses on this forum. Thank you for stepping in and giving such valuable information.
The technology used in this saw is amazing, and I guess unbelievable to some.
Th brake is slick, and it is also a very nice saw, which is more surprising in some ways. Just getting the brake to work as reliably as it does would have been quite an accomplishment all by itself.
John White
Edited 1/12/2007 7:10 pm ET by JohnWW
DougMeyer,
It seems to me your only looking at half the issue...and kind of coming to the conclusion you don't have enough validatable information to make an intelligent decision. Specifically your asking if this Saw Stop is going to misfire, and require parts to be replaced, what will the additional cost be for my shop. That's a valid question. However, given that it can't be answered (at least currently), you need to jump to the other side of the argument and establish a bogey. In other words, there are statistics for table saw accidents for various sized shops and the resultant medical costs associated with those accidents; Taking the probability and cost you can calculate an expected value. This expected value can be divided by the cost of repairing the Saw Stop after misfires. Then you can ask yourself....how likely is it that I will have that many misfires that the cost of repair will exceed the medical costs?
Doug,
I would like to clarify a few things from my earlier post.
Both of the firings that occurred in our shop happened, I believe, out of operator error. The first one was caused when I was cutting FIRE treated lumber. It wasn't overly wet but rather heavily treated with whatever FR material is treated with. As I stated earlier, it was my intention to send this cartridge to Sawstop to have it analyzed .Some of our over eager shop clean up crew made that impossible so we will never know exactly what happened there. I should have tested the wood against the blade with the saw turned off before I made the cut.
The second firing occurred when another employee mis-placed the blade guard. The assembly is directly behind the blade and you access it through the throat plate of the saw. There is a lever that is used to engage a clamp that secures the guard on the saw. The guard has two pin holes in the splitter plate that register its placement onto two pins within the clamp. When replacing the guard instead of seating the pins , he placed the bottom of the splitter plate ON TOP OF the pins and re-engaged the clamp. It rattled free and contacted the blade. You can't see the guard seated on the pins you feel it into place. After doing this once or twice it's placement becomes obvious. His un-familiarity with that piece of equipment and hurried work pace caused the firing.
I believe that with my experience with the saw that it is highly unlikely that it fires due to flaws in it's design. It fires for a reason. You need to understand how it works to avoid doing something that will set it off. We cut a lot of different materials in our shop and need to stay vigilant about it's use.
Lastly, it's possible that we have used this saw more in the last 9 mos. than a hobbyist would use it in a lifetime. The fact that it's only fired twice in that regard is remarkable.
If you have any more specific questions I'd be glad to answer if I can. Be patient as I can't check back as often as I like?!?!
-Paul
Paul: Ths may sound dumb, but did you feel that the operator was risking physical harm by the improper installatiion of the riving knife set up? I would like to know if the errors that caused the safety to fire, while not skin to blade, may have led to injury indirectly. Judging by John White's comments, the mechanism may act like a canary in a mine. If you begin to making errors that trip the safety, it's time to stop and rethink your approach.
Not a dumb question at all. I would say yes the operator risked his physical safety by not properly installing the blade guard. It was his responsibility to insure the machine was ready to go- thus operator error. I do think ,given the same set of circumstances, he would have been at higher risk of injury had the blade break not been present. As it was, the incident was over in a millisecond. I shudder to think what sort of outcome could occur when any metal object (blade guard) falls onto a spinning blade.
In a way we all needed to be conditioned to using the new saw. Old dogs, new tricks. It is a new technology. We couldn't just walk up to it and send whatever material through with out thinking of the potential outcome. I learned that lesson early on. Now when I am unsure of the material I test it first. I guess that would be the canary in the mine.
I would like to stress the point about personal responsibility. I believe strongly that it is up to the individual to keep him/herself from harm. I can't recall a shop incident that wasn't the persons fault. I guess what I'm trying to say is that all the safety features in the world won't help to keep you safe if you are oblivious (ignorant) to the task at hand.
-Paul
"So all I am saying is do we have any info on this?" What good would the info do you? If you don't have all the specifics on each and every incident, the # of triggers (I won't call them misfires) won't help. Defining a trigger as a misfire, by whomever might do the study, would involve knowing for absolutely certain (great grammar there, Jamie) that the operator did nothing wrong.
Listen to John and the others here who've used it, ask them specific questions about any triggers they've had. That's the closest you'll get to the straight scoop.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Doug,
<!----><!----> <!---->
I can appreciate what you’re getting at, but I think you’re trying to bring up an issue without any real evidence for it. I think we can all agree that there is some number of non-skin related fires of the Sawstop that would be unacceptable. However at this time there just isn’t any evidence to support that it’s an issue. Considering hat we hear about every table dished 0.0012”, you’d think we’d hear about every unnecessary Sawstop trip. But we haven’t. So far we have heard of two shops with multiple trips: A pro shop, and the FWW shop. Neither of which would be representative of a home workshop. But of note, both shops still praise the saw, even with the trips. (Off topic: Those guys in the FWW shop should be more careful.)
<!----> <!---->
I don’t think this saw is for every woodworker. Those using low quality or reclaimed lumber that may contain metal should probably not use the saw. Those using wet, or those that work on a jobsite should probably not use the saw.
<!----> <!---->
Buster
"OK to start off let me say that I realize that you are a pro shop and thus most likely use your saw more in a week the us amateurs will use in a year"
I usually don't respond to point of view type arguments but according to this in 52 years, for a hobbyist, the maintenance cost would be 200-400 or 4 to 8 dollars per year. That seems pretty low to me.
Ok i know this is unrealistic and nonsensical, but my next table saw will be a saw stop. I'm kinda attached to my digits.
All in good fun
Steve
If you can afford it, get it.
John
YES.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi,
I wanted to give you some first hand impressions of the SawStop. I purchased the cabinet model a little over a month ago. When I was first contemplating the purchase I was hesitant. I wanted a great saw but was concerned that SawStop was an OK saw with a great safety feature.
After running considerable lumber through the saw I can say without reservation that this is a great saw with a great safety feature. I have completed two cabinet projects and ripped some 600' of Doug Fir 2x4 and 2x6 stock without a hitch. The table is flat, the fence is smooth yet ridged when locked and the dust collection system is great. It is great design that is implemented very well. The saw has the feel of quality engineering.
Yes, it's more money...considerably more, but as others have pointed out, "How much are your fingers worth?" I had set out to purchase a Powermatic, but in the end, it was my wife who made me spend the extra money on the SawStop. So far? Money very well spent!
If you have any specific questions just let me know and I'll do my best to answer them.
Cheers,
Cliff
I hear it's very well made. I'm down to 9-1/2 fingers because of a tablesaw and my own stupidity. Saw Stop wasn't around when I bought my saw and if it had been, I probably wouldn't have bought it at the time....... but, I sure would now.....
Yes, spend the money. I bought a sawstop in sept. 06. Love It !!!! Very well built and customer service is excellent.
Personally I like the idea that my table saw is a very dangerous tool. I have and always will treat it with the respect it deserves. I'm afraid that if someone felt safe and secure about their saw they might get a little careless. Or maybe one day the stop mechanism would fail to engage. That is just my feeling about it.
Omah,
This idea is echoed by the Sawstop manufacturer. In their literature it clearly states that the saw stop does not prevent injury, it only reduces the severity of the injury. In fact it states that when the blade contact skin an injury has already taken place.
I think anyone who does not understand the inherent risk in using a table saw should not use ANY table saw. I think it's been covered in other threads over and over, but to say that the sawstop would make the saw more dangerous is baseless. It's equivalent of saying that not using splitters and guards on your saw makes your more alert, and therefore safer. My feeling is that people who do not use safety devices are more careless since they are more inclined to risky behaviour!
Buster
Bg:
I am in the YES camp. Skip to the last paragraph for the abridged version.
Have been woodworking for many years now, have worked in a cabinet/furniture shop, mostly on Delta Uni's, and an Ulmia. I have researched a Jet cab saw thoroughly for purchase. But when the SawStop became available, and with a future of professional woodworking, I didn't have to think about it twice.
Few reviews I saw of this saw really tells the whole story. The similarity with Uni's ends below the skin. My background is electrical engineering, and I was a physics student before that. That gives me a modicum of qualification to say this is a VERY VERY well engineered saw.
The trigger mechanism is only one of many safety mechanisms. When looking at this saw, few people mention the riving knife that follows the blade travel. The blade guard has a slim profile to remain out of the way for most except the thinnest cuts. The arbor mechanism is unlike all the other Uni clones. It is so balanced that when I give it a good turn, it will turn 3-4 rotations after release. There is a dust shroud below the blade, integrated with the arbor. Adjustment features are available for all critical tolerances. It has the largest and flattest table of all the cab saws. For these features alone, I'd pay the price.
The trip feature is tested when you power up the saw, much like your airbags when you start the car. The trigger is based on capacitance, so don't worry about high humidity, sweat beads, staples, etc. Wet wood, yes...this has been discussed to death.
All the arguments against this product is silly to me. If I have to make to trip to the emergency room, these debates will be pretty stoopid. I have a zen approach to all dangerous tools: I run through a mental safety list, I anticipate the position of lumber and cut-offs after the cut, "eyes, ears, nose, fingers". Yet I know there are better than me with fewer digits. If others in your family will be using the saw, that's even more reason to get as safe a saw as possible.
This is the most I've ever written about this topic. Bottom line: Best saw for the money, even without the stop trigger. With it--no brainer.
Many thanks for your evaluation of the quality and design. Thanks to all for the input and opinions. The reason for starting all this discussion is based in some mistrust in advertising and it is refreshing to find a manufacturer that has come through with both design and quality of construction. I was alarmed at the earlier responcess on the number of times the brake fired when a finger was not to blame, but after hearing more details, my concerns about misfires are put at ease.
Thanks to all and to Mr Meyer for getting better details when the brake engaged.
Bg
I know you wrote this several months ago, but I wanted you to know that, of everything I've read, it was your review that has made me decide on a Saw Stop.
Let me just ask you this. How difficult was the saw to set up once it arrived. Were you able to do it alone?
And finally, do you have it on casters? If so.. which ones?
Thanks,
Bill
I realize that you didn't address the question to me, but I can give you an answer. The setup isn't difficult at all. The most difficult part from what I've read is getting the saw off the pallet (see quotes below). I say from "what I've read" because my dealer did that for me. I'll explain that later. After the saw is off the pallet, you'll need someone to help you put on the left side wing. It's too heavy to do by yourself. Other than the usual adjustments for getting the blade parallel to the miter track etc. These are very easy to do.
I mentioned that my dealer took mine off the pallet for me. He actually did a lot more. If you haven't made the final "deal" with the distributer I'd suggest that you have them give you some service for your money. My dealer uncrated my saw, his engineers (yes he has some that work for him) checked all tolerances and alignments, the dealer had the pigtail (powercord), that I furnished, installed by his employees, and they set the saw on a HTC mobile base that I purchased from them. For an extra delivery fee of $50 (actual bill was $195) they had the saw delivered to my shop (garage) by the company that hauls their equipment for them. The driver used the liftgate to lower the saw at my garage entrance and helped me move the saw to the back wall where I store it when the cars are in the garage. Now, that's what I call service as opposed to a well known national franchise where I was told that they would help me load the crated saw on my truck or have one dropshipped from Oregon. How I was supposed to get a saw off a common freight carrier truck and into my garage would all be up to me if I did that.
Quotes from others on setting up their SawStop:
The order was placed with SawStop by our local Woodcraft store on Monday of last week. The saw was delivered to the store on Monday of this week and was in my garage a few hours thereafter. 2 friends, my wife, and I moved it from its pallet onto the mobile base. Just finished getting it all set up this evening.
Q:Trying to take the saw off the pallet - me and 2 other guys. The saw acts like it is bolted to the pallet. It rotates on the pallet but cannot be slid off of the pallet. Is there a bolt or something I should know about?
AL:I figured it out. There are (were) 3 or 4 wood cleats on the inside of the base nailed to the pallet rendering them invisible. Cleats gone - now waiting for my helpers to return. Just read this Glenn. Sorry about not forwarning you on this!!! I did the same thing. I finally tilted it up and my wife saw the hardwood cleats. She managed to get them out with a wonderbar and hammer while I manhandled the sawstop around them.
That big door removes easy too - lets a helper get in closer to help lift it. I lined up the base, wife held it against the pallet, and then a buddy got on one side, I on the other, we slid it as far as we could, then we picked it up (read this as controlled the decent off the pallet) and set it into the base (gravity did the work). She is one heavy tool.
Looks like I am too late here, but the cleats pulled loose as we moved the saw to the edge. Any scratches are where I will never see them if they ever occurred. Nicely packed saw though isn't it? I really think they do a class job.
Thanks very much. I really appreciate knowing what I'm in for upon delivery.
I'm going to talk to the Woodcraft people and see if I can hire whoever set up their demo.
Your detailed description took time for you to outline and I am grateful to you.
Bill
You're welcome Bill. That's what's nice about forums like this. We can help others that may live for fromwhere we live. I always figure that we're all in this together, so I might as well help out when I can. I've also been helped by others.
Bill:It was a one-man operation for me. Although I requested tail gate service, the delivery truck would not take it down my drive because he was worried about the tree branches doing damage to the top of the truck. Without a pickup, I tied it to the hitch of my 4Runner and dragged it on gravel 1/4 mile back to the shop. I was concerned about the vibration to the electronics, but it was robust enough to not be affected.The difficult thing about unpacking the saw was removing the pallet. I don't recall it being bolted down, but the other poster seems to recall correctly. I used a 8' long 2x4, clamped to the saw top, to pivot the saw off the pallet. At one point, I needed to slide the saw into place, so I did that with several sections of 1" PVC underneath. With the 2x and some blocks, and thinking it through, you'll manage. Think like Egyptians...er...without the slave labor :) My shop is big enough that I do not need to put it on a caster base, so I can't recommend one if you need it. I think they are available--I'm sure SS can recommend one.The final difficult thing about setting up this saw: READING THE MANUAL. More than any other tool in the shop (unless you have CNC), you will need to thoroughly read the manual to tune and operate the saw. Good luck. You will not second-guess your decision. Now if only my power of persuasion can work this well on my family....
Is it possible to use an appliance dolly to move the Sawstop around? I am trying to figure out how I am going to get the saw from my truck to the garage this weekend.
It may be possible to use an appliance dolly, assuming it is rated for 400+ pounds and your rolling surface will facilitate such a dolly. What really worked for me was segments of PVC pipes under the saw. It's slow moving,as I'd have to reposition the pipes as I go, but it worked well. The slickness of the pipes made it easy to turn. Wooden dowels or iron pipes would prolly be better as you'd need less of them (due to the saw's weight), but PVC was what I had.I'd imagine the hardest part will be getting it off the truck. Don't have any quick way to do that by myself without some sort of sturdy ramp. And that's after removing everything out of the crate except for the saw itself. Come to think of it, that may be the safest way to do it: Build a short, sturdy ramp. Then slide it down on to the dolly at the bottom. I'd keep the saw on the base of the crate until it comes off the truck--remember it's top heavy and it'd be more stable that way.All the usual rules for moving heavy objects apply. Good luck, hope you don't have to get it down into the basement next.
When mine was delivered the moving company used a pallet jack to move it from the street to my shop - all cement driveway and sidewalk. Then I moved it off the pallet and onto a ShopFox mobile base and mounted the extension myself with a lot of help from an engine hoist. The hardest part was figuring how to get the hoist to do all the heavy work. At my age (70+) I do my best to avoid anything strenuous. Everything went together exceptionally well. SawStop did some first rate designing and the guy who wrote the manual had obviously been there and done that more than once.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Thanks, George. I was just in San Antonio this past weekend for a 60th birthday party.. stayed at La Cantera.
Not long ago I read an article (somewhere) about the San Antonio woodworkers club recieving and setting up a Saw Stop.
Several of the members worked on it and it took them about four hours to get it just so.. in time for the other members to ooh and aah over it at the monthly meeting.
Bill
Bill,
Yes, I remember reading the same article. I believe it was actually in one of the outlying towns around San Antonio. I need to see if I can locate the article/club.
Thanks, GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Thanks for the advice. No basement just need to get it into the garage up a sloped driveway.
Thank you for your reply. As I mentioned to the previous poster I plan to work out a deal with the Woodcraft guys here in Houston.
There's no way (with my bad back and two previous surgeries) that I can man handle a machine that heavy.
I did a solo assembly on my wide table Craftsman TS five years ago and it just about did me in.
SawStop should offer a set up school for enterprising individuals who would be willing to freelance as set up techs in the major markets.
Again, thanks very much.
Bill
If you want to see one, the Woodcraft in Austin has one in their shop. I would imagine that since they also sell them, they'd likely be willing to let you test drive it.
RAS vs StopSaw
When my husband and I set up our woodshop, he found an old (1947) DeWalt 12" Radial Arm Saw (RAS). He picked it up for about $500, brought it home and we put many happy evenings in tearing it down and rebuilding it. When he finished, it looked like new and people were awed. We had one offer of $7000 for it - we turned it down!
What does this have to do with a table saw? Well, after one friend had 4 fingers taken off with a table saw, and another spent several days in the hospital with a small tear in his liver from a major kickback (and these were professionals!), I told Himself "NO tablesaw!"
I revised my opinion after watching demos at a woodshow or four. My revised opinion - if, for some unheard of reason, we just HAVE to get a tablesaw, it HAS to be a StopSaw! No discussion. ONLY a StopSaw. Period.
Hands, fingers, livers - we don't worry much about those with the RAS, but we don't want them in peril with a tablesaw. I'm still leery of them from the kickback point of view. I, as a woman, have no problems with the RAS. I can get any angle cut from it I need - so can Himself. We do segmented bowl turning. It requires very precise and angled cuts to get the pieces to fit properly - we can get that with our RAS. We can do bevel cuts for door panels and everything. Dado is easy. I am in control of the blade. I know where it is going. I use jigs for some cuts, tape-downs for others. And, yes, we can rip as well as cut. We can slice up a full sheet of plywood in either direction using a table-extender. We are very satisfied with our RAS.
But - if you GOTTA have a tablesaw, I really recommend the StopSaw for it's safety and reliability. When you are ready to look into it, you can ask all the questions at point of sale, or go to a fairly large woodshow. The StopSaw will be demonstrated there, and you can get into all the details you need to.
Cheerio!
Turtlemom3
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled