[[[[Wonderful site and great suggestions – I’m a novice but also have a few tools and a nothing to lose attitude – I’ve already picked up on this forum’s suggestion for wood (paintable and subjected to weather – use poplar), L-brackets for corners, and maybe epoxy glues instead of Titebond because of the soaking a storm/screen would take]]]
Ok – This may seem like a slam dunk to you, but here’s what I’d like to know….
The vintage look wood storm/screen doors offered through catalogues or on the web range from $400 to $600. I’m not into mega-gingerbread (for this building, more like Philadelphia federal look). The joinery for the frame is probably pretty standard. The key to a decent looking door appears to be a nice design for the exchangeable storm/screen inset panels. As I see it, there are two alternatives to a very expensive purchase (if you don’t count doing nothing as an alternative):
1. I have an old 5-paneled door (1-1/8″ thick) from which I can remove the top two panels to install an inset glass storm frame in the winter and a screen inset frame in the summer. I don’t even think I’d have to take it apart and reglue it (unless that’s adviseable). It was formerly an “inside” door, but it’s also about 40 years old and heavy, so I’d expect it to be durable. The local hardware store can make up aluminum trimmed insets for both the safety glass and for the screening which I can set into the door, maybe trimming out the exterior with a trim to match the lower panels and covering the inside with a kind of picture frame. You wouldn’t have to see the aluminum, and I guess it would be fairly air tight.
2. I’d rather have an almost full-view door (with maybe one 12″ panel across the bottom). It’s pleasant to have the door open in summer for airflow and to see my gardens. I’ve found a nice plan from a 1998 issue of Popular Mechanics which is nice, but I’m not sure I understand the way screen insert and glass insert fit in. For the record, that plan (the only one I found on the web) is at:
http://popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/furniture/1998/12/storm_door/
I THINK the overlap edge AND the insert locking hardware on this plan are on the inside of the door which would mean that the storm insert is inset from the front exterior of the frame. That outside lip looks like a moisture catcher to me. I guess I could bevel it. The hardware is a 1-7/8 diameter disk which means you’d have to see almost an inch of the disk in 4 to 6 spots on the door–kind of unsightly. It would be no improvement if the hardware and overlap are on the OUTSIDE of the door. I’m not sure I’m crazy about the design for the insets, although the frame itself is nice.
DOES ANYONE HAVE A BETTER PLAN FOR A STORM/SCREEN DOOR OR AN IMPROVED SYSTEM FOR STORM/SCREEN INSETS?
I had an old rotted storm/screen door from which I saved the hardware (hinges, latchset, closer), but stupidly I threw the old inset frame hardware out. It had a neat clip sytstem for exchanging the storm inset and screen instet. As I recall each of the clips was like a thick hair pin (a/k/a bobby pin), about 5 inches long, which was spread apart about an inch and a half, then each prong was straightened out, stuck through the inset frame about 3/8″ under and flush with the frame surface, from the inner edge to outer, and when through the frame, the ends bent inward to meet (the wire was kind of in a house shape). There was a mortise of some kind in the door frame, but I don’t remember if there was a corresponding piece of hardware. By pulling or pushing on the peak of the roof of the now house-shaped pin, the pin slid inward to release the screen/storm inset from the door, and pushed in to lock it into the outer door frame (I think just through the stiles).
These clips were very unobtrusive and worked well. The inserts were a breeze to take in and out.
ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR THE HARDWARE for the exchangeable inset frames? Does anyone know where I could find the “clips” I described? If not, then I’ll just “picture frame” it with wood trim, and screw the frame off and on seasonally.
I’ve found nothing else on the web, and only a few references here. Although I’m usually a great book buyer (and I like Taunton’s stuff), I don’t want to buy a book for one project.
Thanks for reading. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Lish in the
Lehigh Valley, PA
Replies
Lish,
Let me help by pushing this back to the top.
The or the price range seems quite high and I may have misunderstood your true intentions but from what I can remember (been out of the states for a while) Lowe's and HD I believe carried Lawson storm/screen doors for a lot less that what you stated. I was thinking in the $200.00 range. I believe that the best is where you can remove a small upper or lower panel so in the winter the door does not fog up and helps the door close properly when the glass panel is installed.
I would believe that if you chose the alternate route (build it yourself) you might be better off by starting from scratch. Using a standard door as a screen door would require additional work to the door jam as well. I looked through the web site you supplied and thought if you wanted to build your own that you might go down to the local h/ware store and make some notes on what they have to offer.
I know that this is not much help but good luck,
Regards, Lee
Lee,
Thanks for your answer. Lowe's and HD carry mostly "wood core maintenance free" alumnimum or vinyl covered doors. The only all wood doors at HD and Lowe's are the simple screen doors which are pretty cheap and last about that long. I've bought several of them. Even adding corner brackets, a drip edge and a plexiglass half-back, and painting them with three coats, the things suck up moisture like a sponge, warp and twist and eventually drive you crazy. I like to paint my storm the same color as my door. And there's something about that noise.... "screen door slams...." which an aluminum door just can't replicate.
Here are the types of doors I've been coveting for well over a decade, and they've not gotten any cheaper (as a woodworker, you're not going to believe these prices):
http://www.cumberlandwoodcraft.com/screendoors.htm
http://store.yahoo.com/vintagewoodworks/screenstordo.html
So back to my alternatives.
-The panel door I have actually fits into the jamb perfectly (length, width and thickness), so I'd only have to remove the upper two panels (it has two vertical panels on the top and bottom and a horizontal center panel). It's painted so I can't tell what the wood is. The only problem is that I wanted more of a mid to full-view door.
-The door in Popular Mechanics is looking better all the time. At Cumberland Woodcraft they recommend cypress instead of poplar, so if I make it from scratch, I may as well pay the price and get the best wood to weather. The swelling and warping is the part I most want to avoid.
I will have to make sure I don't make it too airtight (hardly likely). I understand that the object for storm doors these days is to keep the weather out but yet let the door breathe.
As for the insert hardware, it is what it is. Cumberland's insert hardware looks like a huge wingnut on the inside face of the door, and their customers pay $500+/- for that privilege. So I guess I could get used to it.
FOR EXPERIENCED WOODWORKERS, I THINK THESE DOORS COULD BE A NICE "COTTAGE" INDUSTRY IN A LOCAL MARKET particularly when the wood-door competition is charging such outrageous prices. These designs have been around for over a century (just look in any old catalogues). In my area (Lehigh Valley, PA), there are so many people opting for the old-fashioned look for their homes, and the prepackaged HD $200 aluminum doors are the only choice without going to the sites like Vintage and Cumberland where they charge 100% to 200% more!
Just out of curiosity, how much time/materials would you adept woodworking types spend in creating the attached door? I priced a storm insert for a half door at about $35, and less for the screen. I'm going to try to attach a photo of a nice door from Cumberland's website. Their price DOES NOT include hardware! Add the hardware, screen and storm and shipping and the Cumberland price is astronomical.
Thanks again, Lee, and maybe when I finally get this done....I'll post a picture.
Lish
Lish, poplar for outdoor use and L-shaped brackets aren't really what anyone interested in fine woodworking would recommend. Poplar is not at all decay-resistant and though it holds paint well indoors as trim, in an outdoor situation you could kiss it goodbye in a year. Here's a link that may be more helpful: http://web.utk.edu/~tfpc/publicat/decay.htm Also, be aware that heartwood is decay-resistent, but the sapwood is not. A lot of tropical timbers like purpleheart, ipe, and teak would also suit your purpose, but then you would have to be horse-whipped for having painted them.
Reworking your inside door may work fine--i've done what you are comtemplating with removing the top two panels to replace with glazing--but if it's an old door, chances are the glue has crystallized and in any case, it's not waterproof. If you start removing some of the rails, you also lose some of the racking resistance, but only time will tell if there's life left in the glue/joints. The two doors i reworked came apart fairly easily so i cleaned out the old hide glue and re-glued. It was more work than making from scratch, it turned out, but i like salvaging.
Fine Homebuilding September 2002 did an article on screen doors: construction, screen, joinery. I think what they built was pretty damned cheesey, to tell the truth, but there was some good info on screening and installation, to answer that part of your question. The old-fashioned way of the insert lip catching the bottom of the opening and having washer-like retainers holding the insert in at the sides is traditional so it doesn't bother me, but you could use molding and small brass screws to hold in the glass and screen, be it in alum channel or a wood-frame insert.
If it were me, i would spring for new hardware unless you have something special you want to hold onto. Also, that "screen-door slam" you prefer will spell an earlier end to your door. Lastly, i would gently suggest this is not a great place to rant about how much custom woodwork costs; none of us do this bec it's a shortcut to riches.
Lish,
I saw the doors you had in mind… It looks like you would get a nice and long lasting door. Oh, and if I was pricing the door, probably more since I am not setup for it but I say this without putting pencil to paper. Quality is quality so a quality door will cost some money... so its all how you look at it.
Not to be sexes but let’s look at it this way.
A loaf of bread. If I had an oven, ingredients, and the time, I could build a loaf of bread in “X” amount of hours. Spending, I don’t know but allow me to say 20 cents in flour, 50 cents in yeast, 15 cents for eggs, (Don’t let me kid you here… I have no idea how to bake bread) I think hot water is in there somewhere. It looks like I am saying around a dollar to bake the bread… but wait, there is more. Wear and tear on the oven, money for the electricity, got to wash those pans (more hot water), and the whole process took somewhere in the neighborhood of “X” hours from start to finish. What I would have to show for the time and effort would be “one great smell throughout the house”, “great crust”, and knowing that I did it myself.
But lets say I did not have an oven, or water thermometer, and I just dropped my last egg. Time to go and do a lot of shopping.
Or, I could just jump in the car and run to the store and spend a buck for something that would be close to what I COULD have made. Yes, there is more… gas, wear and tear on the car, insurance, and “X” amount of time (say 20 minutes).
It was fun thinking this up but to sum it all up. Pay the Hardware store "X" amount, pay someone like me "X" amount or if you have to tools, ability, and time, you could do it for "X" amount.
Question is, how do you want your bread?
Utmost respect,
Lee
SPLINTIE You supplied a "Very classy answer!"
Regards,
Lee
Lee and Splintie,
Lee and Splintie,
Dear Lee and Splintie,
This is great advice. I like salvaging too (the door can either take up space in door cemetery over in the barn or pay some dues and serve a purpose while I'm growing my business). I think I'll reglue because the door'll be jostled around a bit when removing the panels and the glue's at least 50 years old. Also, you're right about the screen door slamming contributing to my door's early demise. But that's a hard one to give up--kind of like my unwillingness to turn the gravel driveway to macadam or foregoing the sounds of summer nights for the hum of an AC. My age and the increased traffic are starting to weigh heavily in favor of AC, but the crickets are still a thorax ahead. I guess a closer on the screen/storm will have to be another concession.
Fortunately, I live in an old farmhouse which I've restored over the last 20+ years devoting as much energy as money. Unfortunately, the farmers didn't invest in lovely woods for fancy woodwork so other than the banister, spindles and floors, everything's painted as it was in days gone by. Similarly, the doors are all painted (except for the front door which had such a nice grain I didn't have the heart to cover it). The reworked door will be painted. If the reworked door doesn't work out, and I end up making a door, I'll buy a good exterior wood which won't also expose me to a potential flogging as I'm spin drying my paint brushes.
As for the "rant", fellas, you ain't seen a rant until you seen one of mine. That was no rant. I was just responding to Lee's first statement about my price quote ($400-$600) seeming "expensive" for a storm/screen door and his noting $200 doors at HD and Lowe's. Cumberland's doors are worth every bit of $600 if you don't have the capacity for creating them yourself and you value the look. But this will just have to be another time when I take the chance that the investment in the screen and window with alum chanelling ($50) and using molding to hold in the inserts (instead of the $50 hardware) plus using the old door's hinges and latch/knob set will net me a "new" door for under $80. Sometimes my salvage (or cut-rate) efforts work, sometimes they don't. But when they do, how sweet it is.
I don't know you guys, but if you're all in the business (custom cabinetry, millwork, etc.) the $600+ (incl shipping) unfinished screen/storm (w/o hardware) may seem infinitely reasonable. I don't charge enough for my services to make me so flush with money that I can buy all I'd like to have in restoring my home and creating office space. Truth be told, my pricing/billing strategies are not at all cost-effective--I should charge more and then I could buy more, but for some reason neither of those prospects has enough appeal to me to make me change--bankruptcy might have an effect. I appreciate your econ lesson--boiling a problem down to its essence is always helpful. But I still can't see how an unfinished simple storm/screen door w/o hardware can't be produced locally by a hobbyist at a nice profit for 2/3 Cumberland's price. If you've got the equipment, I see selling a few of these a year as a nice niche for a skilled craftsman who can use the dough to buy more toys.
Thanks for your advice. I wish I could offer something as valuable in return but I could see I'm out of my league here.
Lish
in the Lehigh Valley
I wish I could offer something as valuable in return but I could see I'm out of my league here.
Lish, you were doing so well up until that ^ part. FWIW, i'm not a "fella" and that wasn't even in the neighborhood of a rant from me, either; i hold those in reserve to shove veganism down people's throats. I restored an old house , too, but mine came with a Sears "wrought-iron" stairway.
Yesterday i looked at the door you cited. It was $370, made of Spanish cedar. Now, i don't know if all Spanish cedar is created equal, but the last board i bought for a humidor was about $10/BF. Of course, i could substitute clear VG cedar that grows where i live for maybe half that if i can find some that didn't get shipped to Japan. Add on 15% for waste factor. Or maybe this wood comes out of the $10k in inventory i have set aside?
Now, unless i have three dedicated machines to do the same thickness of door each time or one of the three-headed shapers, i have maybe 45 minutes to set up for the panels and the cope and stick cutters after i've milled the lumber to size on my middle-of-the-line $1800 saw with a $100 blade and the $2000 jointer/planer with the $150 worth of blades on it. If i'm going to make many of these doors, i will have invested in a mortising machine for maybe $800, and the bits and chisels to make it work for a few hundred more.
Let's say i do without the wide-belt sander for $15k and go at the panels before glue up with the ROS and touch up the bevels by hand. After assembly with my collection of relatively cheap pipe clamps on my table that is EXACTLY FLAT (ok, that's an inside joke...), i sand some more, not only all the flat surfaces, but i put a radius on all sharp edges.
Then i blow off the dust with my $400 compressor and truck it in my 14-y.o. Toyota truck (this is the best part of your deal) to a retailer who charges you twice what i get for it. I have to go through them bec my shop, in order not to pay exorbitant rent, is out in the boonies where you would never find me, or else i spend it on advertising.
Somewhere in here i have to amortize the cost of the chiropracters, the hand surgeons, and the hearing loss and nasal cancer that are occupational hazards. And my feet hurt. Beer. A computer so i can talk about sawdust, beer, and crickets and send out the occasional invoice.
If you think that someone can do this just bec they already have the tools and can whip one out, think about what they're NOT making while they do this one-off door. There is no "adjunct" to it--there are only so many hours in the day. So i don't think $370 is a huge cost for a door for which the materials will cost $100, i'd spend a day making it, and the retailer will get half. Besides, Cumberland has a ton of these in inventory, a substantial investment so that they can ship it in a timely manner. And they have to pay attention to OSHA!
On the other hand, i couldn't afford to buy the stuff i make for my clients, so i get your point(s) about DIYing this thing. So, what is your regular gig for which you're not charging enough? Time to barter...
Colleen in frigid BF, Montana
Colleen,
My apologies for a totally stereotypical assumption about "Splintie's" gender (but I do like the term "fellas" and I guess it could be extended to both sexes---it might have evolved from "fellows" as in fellow-woodworker, etc.).
First, my comment about being "out of my league" is statement of fact. I couldn't offer anywhere near the kind of advice I've read in this forum. So I'll just read. As for my profession, I'm a lawyer. Yeah, I know, no one likes lawyers, and no one needs a lawyer...until they need one, but my door (and eventually my screen door) is always open, and I'm proud of what I do (I'm particularly fond of David & Goliath scenarios). People ask "what kind of lawyer are you" and when I say "poor lawyer" that refers to my billing practices and not my skill level. So if that's my choice, then I have to "make do" and "cut costs" in setting up an office. I'm renovating a building behind my house for an office (18*15) so that I can keep overhead as low as possible, and also because I want to minimize the time I have to spend in a suit and pantyhose. I shooting for a client-friendly, non-intimidating environment. I'm just figuring out my electrical plan and how I'm going to heat the space. My dad was a contractor, and I grew up around this stuff. I would like to maximize the space and use as many clever mechanisims as I can (drop-down counters, collapsible table, equipment caddies, etc...) to free up floor area for a couple of easy chairs before the fireplace. Any ideas for space saving built-ins?
Back to our discussion. I agree with everything you said except that one new fact may impact upon your final conclusion. The Cumberland door I linked for you is $621 not $370. That's a difference of $251. Cumberland's website is confusing and I should have given you a better link to begin with. You have to click on the storm (not screen) door and then also add a screen, then they add on $91 of shipping costs at checkout. So using my "local woodworker" discount factor of 66% of retail would result in a hobbyist charging $410 (66% of $621 is $410, 80% of $621 is $500, etc.) What price would the hobbyist have to charge for this door to make it worth making?
At $410 a customer would still have to buy the hardware, and counting sales tax, the door would be $500 - quality door, quality price, and supporting a local woodworker. I don't have anything against Cumberland, but the closer I get to home in spending my money the better I feel about it. I admit I also feel really good about getting a discounted price at the same time someone is getting a fair profit---win win.
Your descriptions of your equipment and their respective cost is truly an important factor. I think you're using those numbers to illustrate how the cost of the woodworker's storm door should really include a piece of those investments. For a custom woodworking shop, yes, the investment eventually has to pay for itself allocated over hundreds of jobs and depreciated over time. But if you're a serious home woodworker, you've probably already bought all that equipment anyway for your personal use and pleasure. Consider that money spent and gone. If you didn't then you'd have to look at the rocking chair you just made and say "well, counting the other 3 things I made this year, that cost me $950." But you don't do that because whether you make two chairs or a houseful of furniture, you're probably glad you made the purchase and have the equipment when you want to use it. So if you've already sunk your money into your "hobby", and this is one expensive hobby, the occasional side job yielding a profit over time and materials can only serve to defray the investment already made and maybe even create a kitty for a new piece. I guess that could matter for some hobbyists.
It's interesting, because this theory wouldn't work for a lot of hobbies. If I bought a sports car, I wouldn't want to give people rides to help defray the expense of it. But to do a storm/screen door woodworking project is still mostly a solitary pleasure, and then you get the additional pleasure of seeing it installed on a home where a family will use the hell out of it day in and day out for decades. A piece of durable Americana.
As for advertising, around my parts there are numerous historical societies whose members are always looking for craftsmen who could help them keep their homes looking authentic for a price which wouldn't bankrupt them. Every society I've belonged to has a newsletter and sponsors events and festivals where a little self-promotion would probably not be discouraged if in keeping with the society's preservation goals. I wish there were a way to network local woodworkers who wants to do the occasional job but who doesn't want to do the soliciting. When you think about it, there must be millions of dollars of mostly idle equipment out there.
As for me, my limited skills and limited equipment are dictating the expedient solution. I'm just going to opt for the old door retrofit for now.
Correction! I do have one tip to offer which may have been suggested elsewhere but here goes anyway - I LOVE Elmer's Slide-All Dry Spray lubricant. It's on the expensive side, but I use it for almost everything I used to use WD-40 for and way more. Did you ever use Slide-All?
Ok - my knowledge for this forum is now completely tapped! Take care Colleen, and thanks for the exchange.
Lish
Any ideas for space saving built-ins?
Taunton put out a relatively new book on work spaces which i haven't bought, but i have the "Kitchen" and "Bath" books in the same series--excellent sources of inspiration. Economy, utility, and style can co-exist harmoniously; if you have to wear a hair shirt, damn it, buy a nice scarf to go with. The Nov issue of Family Handyman has an article on making a home office with stock cabs--simple, inexpensive, expandable, and effective if you like built-in's, and a great plan for cord management. Perhaps you prefer the Johnny Grey "unfitted" thang--i do--but it's harder to pull off without looking like a yard sale.
I had a big bay window at the narrow end of the 11 x 27 LR in my Victorian. I framed it with cabinets to either side made to match the wainscoting; this holds all the computer and stereo stuff, complete with electrical/phone outlets and drawers on full-extension slides. I formed a quaint window seat and a ton of storage at one end of the room, barely missing the two feet of depth, and have a focal feature for the room while hiding the now-organized clutter. I was thinking of flanking your fireplace with floor-to-ceiling cabinets with magnetic catches, looking like frame-and-panel wainscoted wall...with a monolithic bookcase/divider behind your chairs to divide the fire-place from work-place and reflect heat back onto the sitters--tons o' storage. In my shop and at my craft shows, i swear by casters so that i can change the nature of the space quickly.
BTW, my "wainscoting" was (9) matching 5-panel Eastlake doors gone way past their prime from another building, laid sideways. I had the best sides stripped, then salvaged the unique trim around the panels off the back side in order to fabricate the matching window seat cab doors. A bit of Bondo where the renters had practiced knife-throwing in them and some paint--quite rich. Cost: <$250 plus a couple weeks work to trim it out. I could sell their hardware for three times the cash outlay.
Install radiant infloor heat or electric radiant panels in the ceiling (you can get seconds for cheaper) so registers don't interfere with your floor plan: flexible space = saved space. Track lights so you can aim them where you need them if you re-arrange; you also save $ over having individual cans installed for recessed lighting and it's better for insulating. I would add a 220 outlet at this stage--you never know when you'll have to plug in a floor sander, or a film scanner from the UK, natch. Separate outlets for fridgelet, micro, and surge protection for the 'puter. Splurge on a floor outlet so you can have a lamp behind you when you take notes while sitting in your easy chairs before the fire. Insulation: blown-in cels are a superior cost/benefit package and you can do this yourself with free rental equip from HD. Put the quarter in, see what you get??? There's more...
Re this hobbyist/pro distinction as a reason for doing something more cheaply: a hobbyist could charge less than someone for whom this is a main source of income if they did it for the fun of it, and you might get good work done cheaply, if you are willing to wait until "fun" motivates the hobbyist, but i'm not sure making a storm door for 2/3 of retail for a lawyer is the sort of lark that wins converts. What about quality? What kind of recourse will you have with the guy down the street (who is thinking he did you a huge favor and will probably start stalking you) if the glue fails, the panel pops the frame, or it ends up 1/2" too narrow? I always have this thing happen at the art fairs i do: some hobbyist-level retired military/gov't guy on full pension wants to come to my shop and "empty your brain into mine" as the Navy guy this past weekend put it. I wanted to hand him my School-of-Hard-Knocks tuition bill and possibly a restraining order. I don't mind yakking at shows, but whoa! Few have ever shown up--it would be too much trouble, akin to sanding past 80 grit. Many part-time woodworkers are far, far better than myself, but i generally find the good ones already make/made their marks in their main profession and don't need/want storm-door work. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just opining why you haven't run into such a woodworker for this job.
Be that as it may, i would make your storm door for $410 (red cedar) if you pick it up--no sales tax in MT, yay--and install it, bec around my parts, we enjoy the 49th lowest income in the US and sleeping indoors and eating twice on Sundays is "fun" enough for many of us. Better yet, i make your door, you handle my David v. Goliath divorce scenario, and we tell the IRS to take a hike. (Moot point, actually; i'm already trading a grandfather clock.) Win-win? You would "win"; can you guarantee i would? That's the nice thing about law and medicine: one gets paid even when the customer loses her adz or even more essential body parts. The return on my mistakes is prettier firewood than normal.
I've never used Slide-All, but i'm interested enough to find some. Thanks, and i hope your resolve about merely lurking is weak. I have enjoyed following your train of thought. I mean no offense with mine...just playin' chess here.
Colleen
Edited 12/3/2002 2:43:50 AM ET by SPLINTIE
Hi Colleen,
I like Taunton's books-short and focused. I'll look for it. I had bought several books on building a home office, and none of them dealt with maximizing a small space for an all purpose office. Most of them deal with a huge space or an adjunct home-office use. This is going to be my full-time place, and there's little room for grand plans. I'm sure I'll still overflow into the house for some meetings so I'll still have to clean from time to time. I like the built in idea next to the fireplace but I have windows on either side but I could still go up to window/mantle height and create an interesting effect.
The Johnny Grey site has beautiful things which look functional with great style. In my space I'm opting for eclectic which I'll throw together with my fingers crossed. I like incorporating "modern" variations on theme with old stuff but it can turn out a jumble. A friend of the family is a salvager/refinisher/antique wholesaler, and I've asked him to keep his eyes open for someone else's "junk" for me. I'm thinking of counters around the perimeter rather than any kind of desk, and I thought that getting interesting turned legs from different pieces could make great posts. I like the casters idea--that could work even for a counter. Plus I like the idea of having a cabinet here, and then there.... My window placement has me pretty hemmed in but there's room for some change. In one corner, I'm going to reuse my mom's 50 year old wall kitchen cabinets (12" depth) on the floor for supplies storage, etc.
I took the joists from the old ceiling down (the place is a fortress, brick on block), and then put in a loft (about 1/3 room length) and then put in a couple of king struts across to the middle of the room, at both ends and the loft opening (which is fake and collapsible by removing a couple of pins so that I can lift big stuff into the loft rather than carrying boxes up through the pull down stairs). Loft's for storage and boxes that'll be hidden from the view below. This is architecturally interesting and really opens up this little space (chapel-like). I bumped out the 2x8 rafters so that I could insulate with R19 and vent above the insulation to a new ridge vent. The struts will hold track lights which are, you're right, more flexible and I think brighter than canisters. I put two tunnels into the bump outs to run most of my wiring through the ceiling and down instead of through the wall and up. My ultimate dream is to put a large cupola (4 x 4 +) in the loft area for light and air so I'm working around that space so I won't have to disturb anything when I find the $ to do it.
I knocked out a little powder room, so eventually I'll have to add on a bath and maybe an additional office but time will tell. I planned on radiant floor heat on the existing slab but that'll also have to wait for $$$$$$ so in the meantime, I'm thinking of either a wall propane gas heating unit or a fireplace insert gas unit (which I can later move into the house to use in a FP with a crumbling chimney). I put a floor plug into an addition on my house and I'm glad you reminded me to incorporate that here---it works great and no tripping over wires. I assume that can be made compatible with radiant floor heat (elec and water don't mix and shouldn't here but...)
One of the other things I was looking for but couldn't find a nice looking version was a pull down cord. In my dad's warehouse, he used to have an outlet that would drop down from the ceiling (I guess it was a cord on a reel) when you pressed a button. Like those pull down lights. I don't need anything that fancy but you'd think someone would make a nice version. I plan to use a collapsible "plastic" table for real estate closings and the like, because I don't want a "conference table" taking up space 100% of the time. I'll throw a nice piece of fabric on top and that'll disguise it enough. I salvaged some board and trim to make a nice sturdy "picture rail" at about 6' along the walls and will hang a few chairs from there to free up space.
My son is going to crack up. I suggested we use doors the same way you did, and he said in his mantra-like way "that's gonna look stupid." When I show him this he'll just conclude you're as crazy as I am. "and they called me insane!!!! Ha!" No vision. I took out most of the doors in my little farm house--I like the open spaces, and I would have felt like I was in some Abbott and Costello routine going from room to room opening doors which are practically next to each other.
Thanks for the ideas and the positive reinforcement.
As for the woodworking, I know a few guys who are part-timers who are very good and very picky, so maybe I'm just extrapolating from them that most hobbyists are like that. You'd know better than I would what's out there.
Sorry about the Goliath divorce scenario. I can't practice out of state, but I don't do marital law anyway. I did my own, and that was enough (I got the bills and no $ and peace of mind---the best deal I ever made). No one wins in those scenarios and it's a rarity when you hear "yeah, I had a great divorce lawyer...." I'm finding more and more that you can't even have an amicable house purchase let alone an amicable divorce. And it kills me to see how people want to use their kids against their ex. It's all so mean-spirited and short-sighted.
I'll take a look at the new Taunton book. They have one on concrete countertops which I'd also like to check out.
I've got to get to work, but thanks so much for your time and ideas. I know that knowledge wasn't acquired for free so I appreciate your input.
Take care,
Lish
It sounds like you're much further along in your remodel than i imagined, and brick is such a charming material IMO. It's not usual here, but my Vic has it as a veneer over wood frame.
For the pull-down outlet, i don't know of any that don't look fairly industrial, but you could get an adjustable hanging lamp (hey work with a counterweight or a spring, are often used over a dining table) and put a socket adapter in it.
I'm not sure what you mean about adding radiant infloor heat eventually--this is the sort of thing you work all the other stuff around. If you already have a slab, you don't want to just lay the tubes on top--the slab needs to be insulated from the subsoil. Alternatively, you can insulate on top of the existing slab, but that raises the floor and affects all the door heights, etc.--a real pain. A minimum pour of lightweight gypcrete is 1-1/4", without considering insulation.
I've used the propane direct vent heaters with great success. You can get one for about $500 to heat that space. I've included an attachment about these that i worked up for someone else already; let me know if it opens properly. If you have a powder room, you can also use an on-demand water heater ($400) for that, plumbed to the same propane tank. If you have to get a tank set, make sure that you have room for the required setbacks from the building(s). You can also buy your own tank in some areas; payback time is about 6 years, but that lets you shop for the best propane prices when you fill it.
I remember doing some woodwork that went on a boat. The couple who owned the boat gave me some pics to work from. I loved the classy, doll-sized fixtures in the galley...that might be a source of inspiration. To tell you the truth, the idea of having "counters around the perimeter" gives me the impression of a corral. I used to line up my furniture in my skinny Vic LR along the walls, but the most interesting thing happened when i let the couch jut out from the wall at about 60*: i got two rooms for the price of one.
Fine Homebuilding's May 2002 cover story features concrete countertop design and construction by Fu-tung Sheng, a name you'll run into again if you go very far into the topic.
right ho! wooden sash doesn't pay.
Try the woodchuck canuck.com they have a free plan for victorian style screen door that may help.
lenvee
Lish,
Much of my spare time is spent remodeling/restoring the old Victorian I'm living in. When it came time for a new storm/screen door, it really took me along time to decide on what to do. I really like the look of the "gingerbread" doors, but my entry door is solid carved oak with nice leaded glass. I finally decided to go with an aluminum full view door (Peachtree) just because it was so unobtrusive and allowed a full view of the entry door. I realize that it's not authentic, but I think it's better than covering up all that beautiful wood and glass.
If your entry door is nice, I'd recommend this as the way to go.
BTW, should you decide to make your own, you can now buy the magnetic seal strips they use on the manufactured units. I think they're especially nice with wooden doors, since they compensate for seasonal movement.
Jeff
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