I’m learning to cut dovetails and what’s invariably my sticking point (literally) is the fact that it’s hard for me to cut my pins 100% vertical. I can do it if I use a guide (as simple as a small block of wood), but I’m trying to do without.
So how do people free-hand them to a perfect line? Do you look at anything I wouldn’t intuit (reflection of the wood in the saw, or something), or is this something for me to learn by doing?
I ask because as a musician, I’ve learned that sometimes repetition is the way to learn. Sometimes, you’re just doing what they call “practicing bad habits.” The way to tell, usually, is if you have some means of telling as you’re doing something whether or not you’re doing it right. But I don’t know if I’ve cut a pin straight until I try to fit it, which is some time later; it’s hard, therefore, to tell whether a certain hand position or whatever, is correct. Particularly as I’m doing it.
This week I bought the Klausz video, and the one hint I’ve not tried is his suggestion to “point” the index finger whilst sawing. I’ll try that and see if it helps, but other than that…
Any advice on learning to cut perfect verticals would be appreciated… then I’ll be back in a while to ask how you cut consistent angles on your tails. But one question at a time. heh.
Replies
I made a guide block because I was having the same problem that you described. I am not ashamed to use it, just like it does not bother me to use any of the accessories for any of the other tools which I have. However, I do hope that one day I will not need the guides but I am in no rush - that will come with time.
dlb
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Three helpful hints I'm sure you heard before - practice , practice, practice...
Here's some suggestions that I've used with good results. Cut the dovetails from left to right cutting only one side of the dovetail, then return. Frank Klaus does this is his video. The belief is that once you cut the first angle, it gets locked into your muscle memory and makes the others easier to cut. It seems to work and is an efficient method to cut dovetails.
Also, you could try marking the joint on both sides of the workpiece and setting up a mirror to check your progress as you go.
When cutting the tails, cut multiple pieces at the same time. The theory us that it is easier (and more efficient) to line up the saw on multiple pieces that on one thin piece.
Keep at it. Before you know it you will become proficient at it.
All the lefts, then all the rights, I'm not doing that and it makes sense. Thanks!
I think my brain will explode if I try the mirror but maybe not. I do know that when I peek over the edge to see how I'm doing, it messes up my body position and negates the benefit.
Don't get how I could cut multiple tails at once, since I'm hand-cutting the pins by eye (copying Klausz's technique). But I think I will get some benefit by doing the all-lefts, all-rights thing. Somehow that had evaded my notice, in spite of the fact that he gauges it with his thumb before each series of cuts... I'm guessing he's setting the angle with that, not just "walking" the blade to the right place on the workpiece.
Thanks for the help!
Edited 11/15/2005 4:22 pm ET by FatherJohn
Careful accurate layout gives you instant feedback since you should keep track of the knife cut marks. I was always told to saw so as to cut the knife mark in half.
Father John,
I'm not so far from the starting gate myself that I still remember what helped ..a few thoughts. First, you practice ten cuts before you start (Ian Kirby). Second, good body position and correct execution (Phil Lowe) Third, document the errors on each piece of stock( Eddie from Aussieland, here on knots).
Ian is great with layout and providing wiggle room for errors. Also, laying out a process to avoid those mistakes. Phil puts your body in neutral position, cuts to both lines simultaneously. Like shooting pool, the grip is firm, the wrist is stiff, the arm is in line with the shoulder, the stock is sufficiently high so the toe of the saw is up...all your doing is pushing straight...no english on the saw. It's all about muscle memory and hand eye coordination once you've got the basics down (like instrument playing). The documentation is very important so you can review what you want to accomplish, or avoid, with each practice session. The story boards help get you focused on the issues...kinda.
For practice, Ian suggested two pieces of mahogany 3/4x6x18..dovetail them, cut them off and do again. This helps too...consistent feel of the stock..etc.
Good idea, I'll mill a set of identical pieces to work on... I'd just been dovetailing any two random scraps together. Maybe that's better for after I get better at same-width. :)
I'm not using hardwood even, I'm using pine. Mostly because a buttload of jointed pine (working from $2.38 studs cut and jointed in the shop) only costs me a buck or two, and I'm doing dozens of these things per session.
I think I might be getting a Leigh dovetail jig for Christmas, but if I get proficient at cutting by hand, maybe I'll score a nice plane or two instead. Hehe.
While teaching my wife to make DTs, I discovered she had the same problem. Her cuts tended to wander to the left instead of going straight. Bearing in mind Frank Klauz' advice that "You don't need a square -- you know square!", here's what we did to help her. I got a bunch of scraps and clamped them one at a time into the vice. After making sure the top surface was level, I asked her to make a plumb cut 1" down to a line. The cut line was unmarked except for the bottom point 1" down. Once done, I asked her to do 4 more. Then, I had her check her first five cuts with a square. Sure enough, they were off to the left. OK, so, do it again and this time, since you know you tend to drift left, "fix it" (pay closer attention to how you are standing, holding your saw, moving your arm, etc.) Each time, after making about 5 cuts, she checked with the square and gradually improved. Several hundred cuts later, she was much better. So, as a musician, you've learned how to get to Carnegie Hall, right? Same appies to woodworking. Try to do something and, if you can't, analyze the problem and devise a practice routine to fix it. Look at how you are standing. Watch how your arm and wrist are moving. Figure out what's keeping you from getting a straight line and solve it. It's probably just body mechanics that, once you work it out, you'll forget you ever had the problem. CAVEAT: make sure your saw is properly joined, set and sharpened. If your saw is junk, even the best technique will yield less that perfect results.
Mike Hennessy
You know, that's an EXCELLENT idea. I will do the exercise you suggest, it sounds like it will be very helpful. Wish I'd thought of it myself. :)
I'm happy with the saw I'm using (a dozuki). It is more than willing to cut a straight line, if only I'll do it right. I may treat myself to a nice LN saw at some point, but for now the saw is not the problem. :)
Try looking at Rob Cosmans dovetail videos from Lie-Nielsen. I recently saw him do a dovetail demo at a woodshow, perfect results. It was amazing.
Essentially he breaks it down into repeatable method, setup, and of course equipment.
Have you seen the Klausz video? I might be incline to buy Cosman too, if you've seen both and think there would be significant additional information there...
Klausz seems very much old-school, and clearly knows what he's doing. I like his efficiency.
I read somewhere recently about using the reflection of the cut line in the saw itself, which made a lot of sense to me. If the reflection is angled, the cut is off line. It made so much sense to me that I immediately made two resolutions: 1) I would try this tip the very next time I cut dovetails and 2) I would put the article away so that it would be a handy reference when I got around to 1). Now I can't find the article! It's rough getting old(er)!Ron
It's rough getting old(er)!
It beats the alternative.
Seriously, if you find a reference for that article I'd be glad to hear it. Meantime I'm going to take the other suggestion and just cut a pile of vertical cuts, checking with a square every five or so to see how I'm doing. If I don't improve by 300 I'll try something else. :)
Father John,
I built one of those small workbenchs that was featured in FWW several months ago...gets everything higher and much more comfortable for sawing. Also, its great for routing mortices, etc.
I know that I will bring catcalls from the gallery for this advice... but here goes.
First, all the previous advice about body positioning, hand/wrist angles, being comfortable- that's all fine. Set yourself up so that you are comfortable and relaxed- make sure for example, that your saw is at the right height.
Second, make sure you can see your layout line. If you marked with a scribe or knife, use a 0.2 mm mechanical penceil lead to highlight the layout. If you split the line, you will be within 0.004" of your layout, but if you can't see it, you can't split it.
As a practice, take some poplar (it's not as easy as mahogany, and not as tough as cherry), mill it and lay out some pins- ~1/2" apart. Cut one after another, stopping to look at how well you are doing.
Lastly, the saw. This is where the tomatoes usually start flying. I find that the saw makes a difference. I am better at DTs with a rip dozuki, than with a standard dozuki- it follows my line more easily. Others have said similar things about LN saws or other faves. I am sure that Tage or Franz or any of the woodworking gods could cut perfect dovetails in teak with flint tools, but for those starting out, a good saw is a wise investment. With cherry ~$6-7 bf, you don't have to waste too much stock to justify the investment- and most folks don't bother handcutting DTs in inexpensive woods- the joint is often on display.
The advantage in getting a good saw right off is that it will be easier to learn and if you have difficulties, you will know that it is your technique/practice that need to be improved, not your tools.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I'm so sad to see such snake oil here. Body position? Practice? Dozukis? There are people who can cut DT's standing on their heads, but this isn't a technique, its a stunt, a parlour trick.
So let's cut the crap. All sawing is the same. You start at a corner and advance on a line. So whether you are ripping a board or crosscutting a 1x2. You start at the corner and saw down, advancing on both lines at a 45 degree angle (more or less). If you feel you are loosing one of the lines, stop advancing on the good line and lay your saw down on the bad, backing up into the good area if necessary. Once the corner is sawn out, you use the good kerf you just sawed to help guide the saw further. (This is easier to show than type).
So have you ever looked at your LN DT saw? Ever notice that if you hold the grip like a pistol, the blade is sticking up at a 30 or 45 degree angle? Ever wonder why its built like that? That's how you begin your cut. You should have a mark thru the end grain and down the front face. Saw that little corner out. If you start losing the line, lower the blade. Don't ever start a cut by sawing straight across the end grain like Cosman does. If you were supposed to saw straight down like that, don't you think they would have put tenon saw handles on DT saws? Cosman's so good that he can get away with crap technique. Its like trying to learn how to slam dunk a basketball from Michael Jordan. "See? Now you try it!" Yeah right.
Once you are through the corner completely then you raise your hand and use the kerf you have already made to saw through the rest. I find its helpful to keep your hand relaxed and just let the saw find the path of least resistance. But if you want, you can mark the otherside and use the same technique by turning the board around.
Practice is good, but its not responsible advice for a guy with 5 kids. I just don't have 20 years to learn to cut a basic joint. I'm confident that (if I could explain this better) you can master the technique in 20 minutes. What's cool about this is that you use the same technique with every saw you own.
Adam
hand tool curmudgeon
P.S. I hate to sound so curmudgeonly about this. I guess I feel there are so few woodworkers who actually saw by hand that basic hand saw skill is beginning to slip into the abyss. I'm sad to see it happening.
I'm so sad to see such snake oil here. Body position? Practice? Dozukis? There are people who can cut DT's standing on their heads, but this isn't a technique, its a stunt, a parlour trick.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I know that in sports, one way to get repeatability on a skill (as in a tennis serve) is to groove in a body position and movement; you can then repeat easily. I learned to play violin under very strict instruction. The positions of my hands, arms and fingers were all precisely restricted. My posture was prescribed as well. As I grew, I was able to let go some of those strictures, and as you say, now I could pretty much play standing on my head. But when I teach my son to play mandolin, I give him very strict rules on how to hold the instrument and his pick.
It helps.
So have you ever looked at your LN DT saw?
I don't have a LN DT saw, though I'd sure like to. :) I have a dozuki.
This thread has helped me a lot. I'm convinced that by practicing my cuts and measuring for plumb and square every five, I will quickly learn to cut a straight line. As you say, sawing skill is at the heart of cutting DTs.
Practice is good, but its not responsible advice for a guy with 5 kids.
As a guy with five kids, I'm pretty confident I can determine whether practice time is worthwhile. Without some practice, I could never have become a concert violinist, or a passing-decent Irish fiddler. Without some practice, I don't see how I can expect to become competent at something with as much to learn as woodworking. In fact, I don't see how refusing to practice is consistent with your disappointment with modern woodworkers' sawing skills.
I appreciate your effort to cut the crap, but perhaps my goals aren't the same as yours. Time I spend in the shop isn't at the expense of my family. My boys are learning with me, and my girls will, too, when they're older. There's something positive and good about making something you can be proud of, together. And there's something good about letting my boys see that their father is still willing to work hard and practice to acquire a skill, that not everything worth learning is learned in 20 minutes -- that learning is a permanent life skill, not merely something to be tolerated during school years.
As to technique... If I were apprenticing with Klausz, I'd learn his approach. If I were apprenticing with Cosman, I'd copy him. I have nobody to apprentice with, so I'll have to pick from all the offered techniques, using the resources available to me. So far, I like Klausz' approach best, so I'm going to learn how to cut without marking the pins and gauge by eye. I'm going to copy his thumb-gauge method of setting his angle. I'm even going to mark my tails with a big ol' fat pencil, not a marking knife. For techniques he doesn't teach you how to acquire, I'm going to take the excellent advice I received here on how to improve my skills (learn to cut straight lines, get some stock and cut one set of dovetails after another, etc.), and run with that, returning for more suggestions when I run into a wall.
Your advice to cut a kerf down the face and then through the thickness is interesting. I may give it a shot, thanks!
Adam, your natural grip of a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw may cock the darned thing up at 30° or 45°, but somehow mine doesn't. The saw teeth naturally seem to end up near parallel to the ground and I have to cock my wrist unnaturally to achieve the angle you mention.
Still, your advice on sawing down the lines you see from the near corner to the far corner and near shoulder line followed by raising the heel of the saw to cut down the far side is good for beginners.
Flipping the piece around to cut tenons this way works well because it's usually a longer cut removing a large amount of wood, but I'd never teach any of my learners to adopt this flipping technique for cutting dovetails except in special circumstances, e.g., a massive dovetail. Dovetails are almost always cut from the money side only.
As just a general curmudgeon myself possessing a few skills and a bit of knowledge about a range of woodworking methods including machine woodworking and hand woodworking I'll stick to my 'poor' technique as you describe it and saw dovetails from the end grain straight down as I've been able to do for the last thirty years.
Some of us with our training undertaken in the mists of the past never seem to lose the knack of using handtools, ha, ha. I do expect the learners I teach to master the simple trick of sawing to a line in the first session. Once they've got it, it should stick with them for the rest of their working lives too. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/18/2005 12:53 am by SgianDubh
Does this mean the face of the board destined to be on the outside is facing the worker as they saw?
I happened to notice that in the Frank Klaus video and PW artical he cuts from the inside (wide part of pin facing the worker). When pondering that, the only "reason" I could think up is the mark for the cut then ends up inside in the corner, and doesn't need to be removed. Klaus marks only one face.
-robert
ram, yes, that's what I mean.
I've not seen any of the Klausz dovetailing videos, nor the man in action live I'm afraid, so I've no real idea how he goes about the job. I do know how I was taught to cut woodworking joints, which is more moons ago than I care to remember really ha, ha.
I always cut from the 'money side' and that's the way I teach my learners, the reasoning being that if there's any drifting from the line on their part it'll most likely occur on the side you can't see so easily, e.g., the inside of the cabinet or drawer. The tails or pins could be cut from the inside too as long as you are confident of your skills, and it wouldn't bother me to do so really although I'm used to cutting from the aforementioned 'money side.'
Incidentally, I cut the tails first whenever I can and mark the pins from the tails and then cut the pins . This way both drawer sides, for example, can be cut in one go, or even six or eight sides cut in a single pack if all the parts are the same width. I only cut pins first where this is the only option, i.e., secret lap or secret mitred dovetails.
Regarding the marking, I mark the shoulder line with a cutting gauge on both sides of the board but mark only the outside and end grain with the rake of the dovetails or pins. I don't even attempt to remove the cutting gauged shoulder marks after the joint is assembled and glued, which I think is a particularly British or European approach to dovetailing as opposed to an American outlook on the aesthetics of the completed job.
I don't cut dovetails every day so I do tend to mark them out until I get back into the swing of the job, but every now and then just to amaze and show off to my learners, and give them a standard to aim for, I do demonstrate the five minute through dovetailed corner using wood about four inches wide by about 3/8" thick. When I do this trick I usually put in about three dovetails, two full pins and two half pins at either edge, and I usually pick one of the softer hardwoods for the job, like poplar or mahogany. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks Richard, just wanted to be sure I understood. -robert
Sgian,
Not trying to revive the pins or tails first argument, but have a couple of questions, from a pins-first guy's perspective.
1--it's hard to cut a half- blind dovetail joint, pins-first, from the money side of a lipped drawer, isn't it? I'm really glad you elaborated on your tails first methodology, as I was having a hard time envisioning this. :)
2--and more seriously. I appreciate the time savings in cutting both sets of tails at once, but have a hard time accurately scribing the pins thru 1/2" thick tail stock (my standard drawer side thickness), especially when the pins are very narrow, as on a Federal era piece. What do you use to scribe your pins with, say on a lipped drawer front? Seems easier and more accurate for me to scribe around a narrow pin, than down into that skinny space between two tails.
Regards,
Ray Pine
That's another version of dovetailing that you really have to do by cutting the pins on the drawer front first Ray. I'd forgotten about that one, or more correctly it didn't even cross my mind when I last posted.
You could of course cheat and make the drawer front thinner at say about 9/16" and cut through dovetails. You could then mark and cut the tails first, transfer the marks to the drawer front, cut the pins and assemble the drawer box. Afterwards you stick on an extra 3/16" thickness of wood to the already jointed drawer front to make up the planned 3/4" thickness. That effort's probably not worth the bother what with the fiddling and getting the grain to match and all that palaver in hand work, but for machine type mass or batch production it could be made to fly.
To transfer the rakes of the tails to the pins (or the pins to the tails if I'm working that way around) I use a home made 'birds beak' knife knocked together out of an old hacksaw blade with a very flat bevel on both sides and a lump of wood for the handle, sort of like the one below. I have to angle it slightly both ways as required in use, which is not hard.
Even with very small gaps between tails I find it reaches in very well, but the scored line is pretty fine, which is not always easy to see I'll admit, but I can usually get around that by emphasising it with a pencil or crayon. If I can't do that I usually let instinct take over and that generally seems to work too-- I guess I've cut a lot of dovetails over the years and can trust my instincts pretty well, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/23/2005 3:32 am by SgianDubh
FatherJohn,
It's already been said, even by you, but I'd also throw in a few cheers for practice. Frankly it's not even something takes an inordinate amount of time, but like the scales you used to practice as a young violinist, practing cutting straight lines only helps you with this and other skills as well.
Years ago what I was instructed to do was to make 50 lines about 1/8 in. apart (that takes a a while!) on several boards, and every day (if possible) cut to those lines. Sounds horrendously boring I know but frankly it won't take long for you to start nailing it. What you're looking to do is create muscle memory.
I took my combination square and made lines down a 24 in. long piece of scrap, 1/8 in. apart. Then after you've finished your practice, cross cut it on the chop saw or table saw and start over.
Frankly that muscle memory works so well that even now as a professional, I can still rely on it even when it has been used in a few weeks or even months.
Best of luck to you.
Tim
Thanks for that suggestion. I've been doing the exercise that was already suggested, just drawing a line on the stock appropriate as a dovetail scribe line, and I've been cutting square down to it. It only took me about 50 lines to start to get very close to square without any other guidance. My own tendency was, consistently, to cut down and to the right. Now I can get 'em pretty square.
I think I will also follow your advice and draw those lines, because after I cut the pins freehand, I'll need to follow the line scribed for the tails with precision. Drawing them all at once and just sawing off as you suggest will be a time-saver.
Thanks!
Here's a second reply Ray. It seems the image I linked into the message in my last post from an image hosting service I use doesn't work. So here it is as a click on attachment. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sgian,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. The first shop I worked in had both pins first and tails first advocates. As luck would have it, I was taught by the boss, who was pins first. The oldest guy in the shop was tails first, semi retired, went home at lunchtime. Once he was working on a hurry-up project, a lowboy. He'd just prepared all the drawer stock and went home . When he arrived at the shop the next morning, he found that to help him, the boss had cut pins on all the drawer fronts and backs. "Thought he was saving time, but it'll take me twice as long now, to cut these dovetails!" Boy was he put out.
Funny how the first way you are taught to do something is usually the "right" way.
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Thanks Richard,
The drawing is of a left handed knife - is the bevel on yours ground onto the other side to suit a right hander? [edit - I read your post again and note that you have a bevel on both sides which the drwg doesn't appear to show]
I use a veneer knife with the LH surface of the blade honed flat and a single bevel on the RH side of the blade to transfer dovetails. It's also homemade from a length of industrial hacksaw blade about 150mm long and 40mm wide by 3mm thick.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 11/23/2005 2:13 pm by eddiefromAustralia
You read it right eddie. The drawing doesn't show the pointy end as well as it might. There is a low angle bevel on both sides of the blade, so a slight lean either way as the knife is in use does the trick for me. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Father John,
There are some good ideas here but if your saw is not sharpe, jjoined and properly set nothing will make it cut straight and smooth. If you are using a dosuki take into consideration that not all are created equally. Sime just do not work well in our native hardwoods. Some of these have so many teeth per inch that it will take forever just to cut a tail. I love my Japanese chisels and planes but use Western style saws because they can be sharpened and are better in hardwoods.
Most of us when we start using hadsaws push them too hard; if it is dull or out of set it will dance around the board rather than cut it. If a saw will not cut with a light smooth stroke it is dull, or needs jointing or set. Because of the multiple angles to japanese saws and the number of teth they are very hard to sharpen and tune. The better ones are sent back to Japan which costs $50 to $100 and takes at least 6 weeks.
Most back saws on the market today have too much set for dovetailing so perform poorly. Try the Lie-Nielsens or go to http://www.vintagesaws.com. This is Pete Terrins site and it has some wonderful descriptions on how to sharpen a saw.
Good luck,
Dan
Hi Father,
What BG was pointing out is that, when I'm teaching 14y.o. kids how to cut dovetails, I point out to them where they could improve, and write down on their practice/skills development test piece areas in which they could improve.
I agree with both Adam and Richard here.
Saw stance is important when learning. Ideally, there are 5 parts of your body on the one plane
Hold the saw with the index finger pointing along the blade. Gives the body some feedback as to where the blade is going.
The five things in a line:
1. Tip of the saw;
2. Hand;
3. Elbow;
4. Shoulder, and;
5. Right Eye if you're right-handed.
This will assist you in getting straight cuts. The eye should see straight over the back of the blade so that you can see how you're going cutting to a straight line.
Some suggest multiple practise cuts, but I don't. Once you have the technique right, you can cut a straight line first up.
Also agree with Richard - cut from the show face of the board, starting at the near corner and progress to the far corner. The saw is canted to the horizontal at about 30 degrees to start the cut, about 10 degrees or so to cut the bulk of the dovetail, and finished up being parallel to the floor/gauge lines. The final pass of the saw should nick the gauge lines on either side of the board (my guess here - don't get too hung up on angles.)
On saw technique, attached link (Dovetailing) shows correct stance and similar technique to that in which I was trained. (Hope that cross-posting's OK, Matt)
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=74300
On the quality of saw producing a good dovetail, it's more in the technique. Here's the original post that BG referred to:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-skills/messages?msg=8789.1
Anyway, as always, quality does not indicate quantity, and I'm spending the day (it's Saturday) with family today, so I'll sign off - trust that this makes sense, and
Cheers,
eddie
Well it's Friday here, but my wife's Australian so I understand. Heh.
Thanks for the input, practice it shall be. :)
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