I recently bought an inexpensive HVLP turbine unit for small pray projects. It’s doing a good job and my technique is improving, but wow what a time-consumer to set up and tear down! So, what do I need to know? What do you sprayers do between coats to keep things fresh without tearing the whole thing down?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
What "whole thing"? On mine, there's just the gun and paint pot to clean. It takes a couple of minutes. It may help that I only spray waterbornes. I can stick the gun in the sink and splash water around without worry. If I were spraying solvent-borne varnish, cleaning the gun would be a little more trouble because I'd need to collect and dispose of the solvent.
One tip is that the paint pot is sealed, just as well as a paint can is. That is, you can leave fluid finish in the gun for a long time. For me, "long" means a couple of days -- that is, long enough to apply multiple coats to a piece of furniture. After the piece is complete, I clean out the gun and put it back in storage.
Sounds like I'm worrying too much. I've been spraying water-based lacquer and noticed how amazingly fast it dries. Had visions of setting the gun down for an hour and returning to a non-functional gun. I did just get a couple extra pots for it, so I can seal up the lacquer in the original pot, and then use an extra one to shoot some water through the gun if it's going to be awhile.
One of the things that makes it harder here is that we're on a septic system, so I don't get to pour the cleaning water down the drain. Currently, I'm pouring it into a big, empty kitty-litter jug and taking it to my store downtown, which is services by a real sewer system.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You've probably got a pressure-release screw on your paint pot? If so, try this experiment. Without any finish in the pot, assemble the gun and make like you're spraying with it. This pressurizes the pot. Now turn off the turbine. Next day, use the pressure-release screw to release the pressure, while listening carefully. If you hear a hiss as air rushes out, you know the pot has held pressure overnight. If the pot holds pressure, no air can get in, and solvents get out, in that time. So you'd be completely safe in leaving finish in the gun that long. If you want, you can test for longer periods.
Thanks, everyone, for the additional info. This unit probably falls into the "toy" category for most of you (see my reply to Quartersawn), but all info helps. And...I picked up a Binks gun at an estate auction last month, so I can use your tips for that!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm not sure if I told you this already but I took some Knots advice and popped for an Asturo HVLP gun after talking to Jeff Jewitt at Homestead. I tried it out once and I think it will make a huge difference in my finishes. I spent about $200.00, but the advice from Jeff was worth it, and the gun was almost like a bonus. This forum is so great! People like you and the other posters restore my faith in my fellow (wo)men. I hope I can help you all some day.
Glad to hear you went with the remote pot. I done the same thing you did for years trying to get a decent finish with a gun that had the canister underneath. After years of fooling with the air adjustment, mixing in more thinner, turning up the air on the compressor I never was able to achieve an acceptable pattern for finishing - just couldn't get an adequate amount of finish outof the gun. I like you was concerned my AC wasn't large enough.
A couple of years ago I bought the remote pot for about 75.00(with a cheap gun) and it eliminated the problem I was having with not having "adequate" spray coming outof the gun. And about a year ago I upgraded to a 200.00 gun (Devilbiss), so finally after all this trial an error I have achieved a system of spraying furniture I'm actually pleased with! Unfortunately I had to learn all these lessons the hard way, no one to show me, didn't have the internet, etc.
Anyway I wish you Good Luck!
Robert
Glad you found Jeff! I really respect him and appreciate the help he provides for us woodworkers. What compressor do you use to run the gun, if I may ask??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The compressor is a twin stack Porter- Cable that puts out about 7.5. This coincidentally is the compressor that Jeff uses when he does raod shows. He recommends that I use the shortest hose possible. I guess there is some kind of reserve pressure tank that I can get, but I really don't use the rig that much...I'm just a casual woodworker, not a production shop.
"some kind of reserve pressure tank that I can get" Yep. They're not very expensive, but I got one at an estate auction last month(?) even less expensive.
Your compressor puts out almost twice as much CFM as my pancake compressor.
Look here to see a couple of photos of furniture finished using the inexpensive little Wagner FineCoat turbine HVLP like the one I have. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Lovely. I have to see if I have a picture to send you of something. Not sure about the whole photo posting thing. (Thats why my cutting tools all have rounded points and dull edges, lol).
If you're wanting to post a pic, but not sure how to edit and load, email it to me. (I just love DSL).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have only sprayed nitro-cellulose laquer and if it is going to be more than an hour between coats I pour the laq. into a clean can and run some laq. thinner through the gun. After a spray session I always clean the cup, air cap and needle. While it does take a little bit of time (10-15 min. tops) I feel like I have made that time up 10 fold just by spraying.
I have friends that have dedicated guns for dedicated finishes. Do you really need a reason to buy a new tool? the LVLP stuff looks pretty cool.
Clark
Further to what Clark has said I favour the gravity type cup spray gun-apart from being easier to manoeuver it is far easier to clean and there is less waste of materials.
I hardly ever throw away lac thinners. I have several containersfor used thinners-the first wash out is with "used" thinners, followedby "virgin" thinners,and so on.When the solids settle out I just filter it off and re-use--for cleaning only though. It's all a question of adopting a routine that suits your work habits.
I never leave any finish, especially catalysed stuff, for longer than 5 hours or so-half a day, and never overnight.
I may over clean the gun-but this is preferable to having the spits, or blocks or other irritations, and I always blow dry the gun by blasting air both ways through it with an air lance.
Hope you find this useful.Philip Marcou
My preferences and routine are pretty much the same. I think gravity guns are also much more forgiving to operate, particularly for the beginner.
My cleaning routine is basically the same as what you've described. Except that mine is in a commercial setting. So, I have a 5 gallon parts washing station where I keep dirty solvents for rough cleaning the guns. After the gun has been initially cleaned I put it in a pneumatic gun washer which runs clean solvents thru the gun's internal passages while blasting the exterior with clean solvents too.
I have several dedicated spray pots at work. One is dedicated to spraying white shellac primer, one for spraying black lacquer and one for spraying clear lacquer and varnish. The first two are rarily cleaned out. I just blow back thru the gun to push the material from the hose back into the pot, stir it up and then I'm ready to go. With the clear pot I often do the same, even with catalyzed varnishes. But, only with catalyzed materials which have a pot life of more than 24 hours.
Most of what I spray doesn't come from one of those dedicated pots, though. I use gravity guns for 99% of the rest.
<One of the things that makes it harder here is that we're on a septic system, so I don't get to pour the cleaning water down the drain. Currently, I'm pouring it into a big, empty kitty-litter jug and taking it to my store downtown, which is services by a real sewer system.>Covering the pot and cleaning the gun should work well. More importantly, I agree with you about the septic system but the sewer is no place to put it either. Most professionals evaporate their waste in a bucket of sawdust, even solvent based products. They finish materials dry quickly in the open and leave you with a solid bucket of dry disposable waste. One important things is to use different buckets for water based and solvent based. I shoot 5-10 gallons of solvent conversion varnish a month and I use a five gallon bucket with sawdust that lasts easily 3 months or more before going to the dump. aloha, mike
Wow, I never thought about using sawdust. I've been using kitty litter to help dispose of old ruined Danish oil and such. Sawdust would be a heck of alot lighter! Hmmmmm, I thought water-based would be OK to dump in the toilet. No, eh? Time to talk to hubby who makes his living getting rid of toxic waste.
One thing for sure, though, the hassle of getting rid of old paint buckets and stains and on and on and on has sure cured me of buying something just because it's cheap or picking up a gallon when a quart will do!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I would like to take this thread slightly in a different direction and get everyone's feedback on spraying equipment. My dilemna is that I can't spend the $700-800 for the best known HVLP spray rigs. I have tried the conversion guns but my compressor is really meant to run air tools, not a paint gun. I think I need to buy a turbine outfit, but would like to keep it around $300-400. I spray clear lacquer and water based clear, as topcoats. I actually have had great results with spray cans from Behlens, usually Satin or flat gloss. These products are made primarily for the furniture finish repair trade. I can buy alot of cans for $300, but I would like to have the spray equipment for bigger projects.
I would be interested in your opinions on brands and models and prices. Maybe Forrest Girl's small Wagner setup would be good enough, but I do not want to waste money by buying the wrong thing. Let's hear from you!
Edited 10/1/2005 9:17 pm ET by quartersawn
1/4, I don't understand you saying your compressor is really meant to run air tools not a spray gun- if it makes enough air to run air tools then it certainly can run a spray gun. What is the problem? Too much air? If so is there a regulator? Too much in this case is preferable to too little.Philip Marcou
In one of my earlier posts, a couple of responders said that my conversion gun required more air flow (not pressure) than my twin tank stack could deliver, and that the finish was probably not getting atomized enough to get a good wet coat. I admit to being very challenged on the topic of production type spraying. The problem is that I have noone to show me, and instructions for gun adjustment are just not available very readily. Most of the posters here are people who seem to do this for a living, and somebody probably taught them on the job. By the way my gun is a Porter Cable gravity feed conversion type gun. I just cant get a wet spray out of it no matter how I adjust it.
You're right - it's more about the cfm than the pressure. Everything I know I learned from Jeff Jewett:
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
I ended up with a PC compressor that puts our 8.3 scfm @ 40 psi; drives my Asturo conversion HVLP gun just fine. (Just saw they have the gun on sale for $189 - this is a real bargin for a very nice gun!!). Give Jeff a call - he was certainly very helpful whenever I've talked to him ('course I also bought a bunch of stuff...)
I also have an Asturo from Jeff Jewitt. Jeff was able to match me with a gun that would work with my twin tank nail gun compressor. I did add a storage tank from Grainger to have more air available. The compressor runs a lot when spraying more than a few square feet, but is able to keep sufficient pressure for even an entertainment center sized project. The gun he recommended I can switch from a pressure pot (on the underside of the nozzle) to a remote (larger) pressure pot with 6' hoses. The remote pot is wonderful because the gun is more manageable and can get inside cabinets easier. I'm guessing that 4-5 minutes of continuous spraying would empty the compressor and reservoir, but spraying is seldom literally continuous, and the compressor catches up quickly. I wouldn't recommend such a small compressor if spraying more often than a couple days a month.I also started with a Wagner Finecoat about 15 years ago. Since it was all I knew I thought it did a decent job of spraying. Until I learned to use the Asturo.I only use Fuhr finishes, and Target's water based shellac, both of which I purchase from Jeff. I will leave finish in the pot and gun with no special precautions for as much as 5 or six hours if waiting for coats to dry. I'll flush a couple quarts of water when finished, and either at that time or the next day a quart of the Fuhr stripper/cleaner. Taking apart the needle, nozzle, ... takes a few minutes, which I let soak for a bit and then brush clean. Final flush with water followed by an alcohol wash to remove any residual water.
"water based shellac" Pray tell, never heard of it! What's the scoop?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I took the liberty of copying the following from the homesteadfinishing.com web site. UltraSeal allows me to spray seal Jeff's water based dyes, follow with an OIL glaze, spray seal that, and top with WATER based Fuhr finish. Until (if) someone develops a latex glaze with sufficient working time, I'll always keep a gallon of UltraSeal on my shelf."Oxford UltraSeal-WBâ„¢ Water-Based Shellac Sealer & Barrier Coat is a water dispersed dewaxed shellac system that looks and behaves almost identically to alcohol cut shellac in terms of surface wetting, color generation, burn-in and overall depth and feel. (See maple sample right) Developed to be a drop-in replacement for alcohol cut shellac for finishers who have concerns about the use of alcohol in environments that are not flash-proof, Oxford UltraSeal-WBâ„¢ can replace traditional alcohol cut shellac in all applications. Product is compatible with all Target products and is highly recommended as a binder for toning when using TransTint¯ dyes. When used as a sealer, great effects can be obtained by lightly tinting the UltraSeal with TransTint¯ dyes."Oxford UltraSeal-WBâ„¢ is a 25% solids cut (slightly higher then a 2 pound cut which is 21% solids) of the finest dewaxed pale amber shellac resin dispersed into a water vehicle, that allows the resin to perform in a fashion that is more forgiving and easier to control than alcohol cuts. Oxford UltraSeal-WB demonstrates excellent substrate wetting capabilities, color and depth generation qualities and remarkable adhesion."
Thanks, Don. It's really interesting! I had no idea.....forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
This sounds like a possible good way for me to go. Would you mind looking up what model gun you bought from Asturo? Is it the one that they have on special now that they say they bought from some other distributor? The under $200 price point works for me, especially if I can still use my almost new PC compressor.
Is the pressure pot a necessity? If so, what should I get? Sorry to be such a newb. If you have any questions about arts and crafts furniture making, I can speak with some authority about that.
The model I purchased is an Asturo ECO SSP which came with a remote pressure pot and 6' hoses. The lower priced model uses more air.The remote pressure pot is a joy to use when spraying, because your arm isn't holding up the weight of the liquid (it's in the pot on the floor or hanging from a hook). Because there is not a pot attached to the gun, it's easier to maneuver inside a cabinet. And because the liquid is fed to the gun under pressure, you can turn the gun sideways and even upside down while spraying, without causing any problems. Downside is that cleanup takes longer (larger pot, hoses to flush) and more finish wasted each time you clean up (more surface area to hold finish in the pot and hoses).I use the pressure cup whenever possible.Jeff Jewitt is one of the most patient people I know, and will answer all your questions very clearly and thoroughly. And he is one of the few people whose recommendations I trust implicitly.
Finally someone gets this right.No, not all compressors that will run air tools will drive an HVLP conversion gun. Most need more CFM than your average compressor that someone bought to run a nail gun. Nail guns use a *low* volume of air, whereas the HV in HVLP stands for HIGH volume. For example, the Porter Cable gun needs around 9 CFM @ 40 PSI while their most popular pancake tank compressor only puts out around 3.5 CFM @ 45 PSI. What happens when you use them together is that a) you run the risk of burning out your compressor on a big job, b) you will at least heat the air a lot and introduce water (bad when spraying oil-based), and c) you will take more time to do the job because you have to stop and wait for the compressor to catch up. Totally screws up the pace of the job. I know all this because I went that route. Traded my PC gun in for a Fuji turbine and gun and I *love* it.RogerI'd rather be making cabinets and friends....
So, if I have a 5 HP 60 gal, single stage DevilBliss, is it big enough to handle a conversion gun?
BTW, what is the deal with LVLP that seems to be coming out some?
It really depends on what CFM it puts out vs. what your gun requires. It will certainly work better than the 2.5HP 6 gallon compressor!RogerI'd rather be making cabinets and friends....
quartersawn, a "full wet coat" requires a couple of things:
1) a clean gun-fluid cap soak in solvent, air cap all holes cleaned and fully open using a wooden toothpick
2) air vents open in reservoir
3) material sprayed reduced to suit your guns needle and cap size (not the paint mfg recommendation necessarily)
4) proper air pressure and needle adjustment-dont forget to adjust fan (usually the top screw)If all these things are set from your perception, then check to make sure that the gun is correctly outfitted with needle and cap for the viscosity of material you are using. Your spraygun dealer should be able to help you set it up properly. aloha, mike
3) material sprayed reduced to suit your guns needle and cap size (not the paint mfg recommendation necessarily)
That is an important point that all finishers need to consider. The typical manufactorer's recommendation these days is driven more by EPA regulations than by end-user needs.
A good example is an automotive acrylic primer that I sometimes use here at work. Dupont designed the primer to be reduced 1 to 1 with a reducing solvent blend. Our supplier has to sell us a gallon of the specified EPA-compliant reducer for every gallon of primer that we purchase even though I don't want the reducer and don't usually use it. Apparently our supplier has no choice. The EPA dictates that they have to sell the reducer because the primer has to be reduced and, so the theory goes..., if the compliant reducer is sold alongside the primer then it is less likely that non-compliant solvents will be used by the end-user to thin the primer. The industry that I work in isn't held to the strict standards that the automotive refinish shops are. But, the supplier apparently can't make an exception because they primarily service that industry and the EPA holds them to the same standard. I also can no longer buy a fantastic acrylic automotive clear from them even though they carry it in stores outside of the Portland EPA district. It's illegal for them to sell it to us here.
Jeff Jewitt wrote a very thorough article on setting up spray guns in FWW I think about 9-15 months ago? Help me finally understand the role of the various pressure and needle settings, and cut down on overspray and orange peel.
Grasias. I will look up that FWW article and try to e-mail or talk to Jeff. Again many thanks.
I had a nice conversation with Jeff Jewitt today. As it turns out, he uses the same Porter Cable compressor that I have, when he does road shows. He set me up with the gun that they are running on promotion right now, the 1.9 needle for lacquer, and suggested I use as short a hose as possible since my compressor is right on the limits of the gun. A better setup with pressure pot, etc, would have been about $600, which was beyond my budget. I spent around $200.00. He also invited me to call anytime with questions. I also found his article from last year on spray technique.
Thanks, everyone.
You should be able to spray almost anything with a gun that uses compressed air from that kind of compressor. Properly reduced lacquers dont even need much pressure (35 lbs or so) and with air control at the gun you can then reduce to get what you need for a proper fan and material tranfer. A $75 gun properly maintained will get you to where you can appreciate what you might need in a more expensive outfit. I personally use noncompliant siphon feed guns most of the time (Anest Iwata) which are laser cut and cost about $300. They can be dialed down for LVLP (low volume low pressure) or turned up to paint the side of a bus, which I never do. Start inexpensive with the siphon feeds and learn to paint before you spend the big bucks. my 2¢....... aloha, mike
"I can buy alot of cans for $300," Yeah, but it's such a waste of resources. That's one reason I got the little Wagner sprayer. However, you're right not to count on something like the FineCoat for your purposes. (I'll be the guinea pig, LOL). forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I cant vouch for sawdust and Danish oil in the fire hazard department but sawdust certainly is "available" to most of us.
The "water based" issue lulls us into a false sense of "okayness". Its really a bunch of chemicals some of which are toxic to fish and aquatic life. Additionally, most sewage treatment facilities do not have the nuetralizing capacity for this type of waste. I use sawdust (2 separate pails) for solvent and water based products with the solvent ones evaporating fastest. Heres a microfact: 99.9% of all solvents ever made evaporated into the atmosphere. Interesting eh. Does this make you feel guilty? It does that to me at times so I try to mitigate where I can with proper disposal methods. There are companies that will take your solvents and reprocess them for a fee but I cant store them long enough to make it worth their or my time. Most of my mix gets shot into the air and then evaps. On Maui, the dump insists that my product be solid which it is by the time I take it to the waste tranfer station. aloha, mike
I wrap my gun in SARAN? Wrap.. OK the next day...
I'm curious, FG; what do you consider inexpensive as regards the costs of a HVLP system?
HehHeh. You won't believe it, might even make fun of me. I picked up the Wagner FineCoat at Gleem Paints on-line, a refurbished unit, for $80+shipping. It's the first unit on this page. They have a new model now, the Fine Spray 2400 (on the same page). I bought it to do small projects with and spray dyes and such. Not recommended for big spray jobs and not expected to perform like a $500 unit, but handy and will do for now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey FG -
I use one of those $29 finish guns obtained at HD or Lowe's. I only use it to spray lacquer. I never clean it. When it get empty I just fill it up again and keep going. The one i'm on now has been going like this for over a year. Sometimes lacquer will set in it for weeks before refilling and it never clogs up. Sometimes I have to clean out the little breathe hole on top of the canister.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
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