Hello
Today for the first time I went to change the planer blades in my De Walt 735 planer. Had it for about 4 months and this is the first time I have had to do it.
There are 3 x cutterheads with 8 x Allen Key Bolts on each cutterhead (securing the blade to the rotating cutterhead).
On 1 x cutterhead all the allen key bolts came out without problem, although very tight (I thought the supplied De Walt Allen Key tool was going to break I had to use so much force!).
On 2 x other cutterheads 7 of the 8 Allen Key bolts came out as well, but on each of these cutterheads there was 1 x Allen Key bolt that was “pre-stripped” (probably from installation at the factory) on the head and the Allen Key tool (and other Allen Keys) just rotate and it is impossible to remove these 2 x bolts.
Does anyone have a way to get these out? The Allen Key bolt is rounded over – there is nothing that a pair of pliers can grip onto.
I didn’t want to spend the time and hassle of taking to a De Walt place for repair – would be easier to replace the stripped bolts myself, but can’t get these ones out.
Like I said, the other Allen Key Bolts were in REALLY tight, so it’s really a challenge to get these last 2 out.
Any tips for removing the stripped Allen Key bolts?
Thanks
Paul
Replies
Dear Paul,
I almost went down the road that you suggest, that is, fooling with stripped allen bolts that are rounded over, except the ones I was dealing with were on the Ridgid planer. I was all set to perform surgery when it occurred to me that this is ridicules. This is either a manufacturing flaw with a part, an installation flaw caused by who ever assembled it, or some combination there of. I didn't cause the situation, why should I, the customer, have to correct it. If I built something for a client and some basic operation of that piece didn't function correctly, I would be expected (Rightfully so) to correct it....... Pronto!.... Like NOW.
I would take it back and either get a brand new one, if you really like it, or switch to a different manufacturer. I opted for the Makita which has regular hex-head bolts and in the last eight years and a couple of hundred blade changes have never loosened or stripped. I still use the factory supplied wrench, which is actually a decent little tool, not some silly thing made out of stamped metal. In closing:
1) Take it back: If it happened once, BRAND NEW, what do you think is waiting for you down the road? In particular once it is out of warrantee.
2) Take it back: Don't put up with poor manufacturing. It's your hard earned money.
3) Take it back: Do want to repair tools or woodwork?
4) Take it back: At least get a new one. What's better than a new tool?
5) Take it back: Try something else, who knows, you might find something that actually works the way it is supposed to.
Or:
1) Keep it and void the warrantee.
Best,
John
Paul,
I second John's advice: Take it back. Removing stripped socket set screws on a cutterhead is no fun. On a new tool I would make it someone else's problem.
-Nazard
You could lug the thing back to the store or try a needle nose vice grip pliers. That helped in my case. Just had one hard to remove bolt (some overzealous factory worker?) Used the pliers successfully instead of stripping the bolt.
If it had been stripped I would have replaced it, not the old one. The cost of pliers and a new bolt is less than my time/stress exchanging a large tool for such a small problem.
Andy
Dear Andy,
"The cost of pliers and a new bolt is less than my time/stress exchanging a large tool for such a small problem."Now everybody is different, but I don't necessarily consider a benchtop planer a "large" tool, but it does represent a few hundred dollars investment. If it were me, I would want it right. That aside, I'm not so sure that this is a small problem. If I understood the original post correctly, there is no way to grab the bolt from the outside as it is rounded over, that is, it is machined that way. A rounded over head with an allen recess. Grabbing this with vise grips will not do it methinks, because the "purchase" area is so limited. If the metal of the fastener is so soft that the allen recess stripped, then I doubt that needle nose vise grip will provide the grip needed to remove it. Even if one were able to remove it, now I have to find a bolt to fit? Why would I go through all of this? Why am I correcting some else's mistake? (Again!) If I have to go out anyway, then I am taking the planer with me and returning with a functioning unit.
My (not so) humble opinion.Best,John
Edited 11/18/2007 8:16 pm ET by Jmartinsky
While I agree with the sentiment of taking it back, I wonder if there will be a "fight" over whether it was installed that way, or whether you did it when you were removing them. Please note, I'm not saying you did... I'm pointing out the possibility that a returns person may accuse you of it...With that understood, I've used a bolt remover that has a left hand twist. Normally, you drill a hole, and then screw in the remover... Because of the left hand twist, as you tighten it, it tends to twist the bolt. Because it's a stripped allen head, you won't have to drill a hole, just find the right size bolt remover...
Dear Z,
When I ran into the problem, I stopped before any surgery and returned the planer to minimize the chances of the accusation that I caused the problem. I agree that some stores can be a pain, but when my dollars are involved, I will bring it to the supplier's attention. If I have to repair a brand new tool due to a manufacturer's defect, I am going to be one unhappy camper. If the supplier won't help me out, I will turn to the manufacturer. I have found that my suppliers value my business and will accommodate me, although I have VERY rarely had to return anything.Best,John
Dear John,Wow, I was offering a suggestion to the problem that worked for me in a similar situation. Can't you let him judge its merit without attacking my opinion with your own? Despite the handles, the tool is large enough to be a bother if you have to carry it all the way back to the store. > Why am I correcting some else's mistake? (Again!) If I have to go out anyway, then I am taking the planer with me and returning with a functioning unit.Well, congradulations for promoting the disposable society. I don't like getting a bad deal either but at some point you have to realize you got quite a product at a pretty good price (and you get what you pay for). If it has a small problem that can be solved with less physical effort and less confrontation, that's the route I prefer. I suppose you also return tools with blades when they get dull? You can continue to knock my opinion if you're not so humble and you don't like opinions that differ from yours. If so, get stuffed. Andy
Andy,I think you should re-read John's post and then revise yours. I don't think he was attacking you, just offering a different viewpoint. Regardless there's no need to be insulting.I too would take it back. They should make it right, and it would make a contribution, albeit small, to their attention to quality.Pete
Edited 11/18/2007 1:33 pm ET by PeteBradley
Dear Andy,
"Get stuffed." ? Now is that nice? I'm not sure how you concluded that I was attacking you or your opinion, but let me assure you that I was not. Perhaps my emotions on this subject have bled through as I am definitely opinionated on this subject, but that is because I have little patience for my time and money being wasted. I am a contractor and these are the tools of my trade. They are either putting money in my pocket or taking it out. Period. Products that are not right,...........are not right and I don't think anybody should put up with it. My opinions:1) I agree that a planer is about the most awkward thing there is to cart around, but still, I would take it back.2) Contributing to a disposable society? Hmmmmmm..... I don't think so. I reject the "throw away" Deltas for a quality unit (Makita) that I intend to run until it explodes. The only thing I see as disposable here are the blades.3) More disposables: I really don't see the benefit of rewarding manufacturers of "less than" products with my dollars. Perhaps DeWalt makes a very good unit, fine then they should recognize the flaw and give the man a new unit. Perhaps they make something not so good, and if that is the case, then I say, take your money elsewhere. Either way, give the manufacturer a chance to make good on it.4) One more disposables: If you are implying that by returning the unit, it is "thrown away", I think that it is safe to say that it will be recycled as "reconditioned". Now there can't be any of this recycling without returned units, so either way it is a win-win. He returns the problem unit for a new unit, the factory "reconditions" the old unit, therefore providing more jobs, and down the road somebody gets a nice, discounted "reconditioned" planer. Nothing disposed of, everybody wins.In closing, I am arguing for BETTER quality tools and service. We should all strive to be better. If I buy something and I don't think that it is worthwhile, I return it and let them know what my problem is. Sometimes, I get educated and learn that the problem was that I didn't understand how to properly use the product and therefore am better for the experience. Sometimes I do the educating by pointing out the flaw in a product (perceived or otherwise) and it gives a manufacturer both information and incentive to get better. So Andy I welcome all opinions, in particular those who disagree with me. It is the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions that make these forums so valuable.Best,John
I think the term for the tool you guys are referring to is an "EasyOut" (trademarked?)
They are hardened steel, usually come in sets of 3 or 4 standard sizes and are usually avaible for a very few dollars thru your local NAPA store or any decent hardware outlet.
That being said you guys should stick with woodworking [ ;0) ]. (smiley face!!!) Vise grips! Throw those damn things away. They damage more than they repair.
!. call your supplier/manufacturer or both and advise what has happened2. ask what they recommend3.will #2 work?4.if they can't /won't help you and you don't wish to wait try a local machine shop (as another poster mentioned....high speed machine here that can throw things with amazing force)5.wear kevlar gloves if messing with it and you're not experienced around sharp blades
6.if all else fails or you don't feel right about working on it....RETURN IT...several hundred $$$$ here, right? How many times do you plan to do this sort of thing? Don't "cheap out" on it.
Sometimes I'm amazed at what people will do to save a buck when they're sitting on thousands of $$$ worth of tools and materials. What's the point?
Just my 2 cents based upon what has been offeredbum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 11/19/2007 3:39 am by oldbeachbum
Edited 11/19/2007 3:51 am by oldbeachbum
> That being said you guys should stick with woodworking [ ;0) ]. (smiley face!!!) Vise grips! Throw those damn things away. They damage more than they repair.
I agree! No one should ever do anything for themselves. Who do they think they are!
Vice grips have been one of the most useful tools I ever had. Now that I know how useless they are, I'll dispose of them immediately.
;)
A
couldnt have said it better myself!
John well stated!
I trid to fix a broken bolt a couple of years ago, and broke the easy-out in the hole. I ended up at a machine shop. Bu if you put any tool marks on that planer kiss returning it good-bye.
My history with Dewalt is great! I had a appentice drop a 14.4 cordless drill out of a third floor window. When I took it to the service center, they had a goodlaugh about it falling of a 6' ladder and gave me newly reconditioned one. I never thought they would do anything for me, I just took it in with some other tools too see what would happen.
Good Luck on whateve you decide,
Paul, I agree with John: Take it back. Since you are asking you don't probably own the correct tools to do the repair, so you have to go somewhere to get them. A trip is a trip.
It is going to be a real pain to fix your self, and since this is a high speed rotating assembly, the balance matters, and has a definite effect on the longevity of the tool.
You are going to have to replace the screws/bolts you take out with ones that are the same. Do you have a ready source of supply? Or, replace all of the bolts, 24 if I read your post correctly.
That said, if you really want to fix it look around for a left hand pitch drill bit, and easy-out that will work, (I have seen them sold as sets, but can't remember where). Frequently the vibration and load from the left hand bit work without the easy-out being necessary. Another option would be cutting slots with a dremel or similar tool for a plain ole flat blade screwdriver.
I guessing that the cutter head isn't the same metal as the screws and they have corroded together. So when you change blades always use a little bit of the weakest loctite you can get on it, ( green iirc).
Edited 11/18/2007 1:41 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
I've read all the "take it back" posts, and while I sympathize with the sentiments, the practical side of me says to swallow your resentment and remove the bolt yourself.
One poster suggests an "easy out" type of tool, which might work, but you'd have to run one down, and the right one at that.....
What I have done successfully a number of times in the past, and in some very tight quarters, is to cut a slot in the bolt head and use a regular screwdriver.
A Dremel is one option, if you have one, and the space/angle allows it. This would be the fastest option. The other is a pair of vice grips and a hacksaw blade, or a portion of one. Slow, fussy, and frustrating enough to drive a man to drink, but it got me out of a real bind not so long ago when one of three allen head capscrews stripped out when trying (and finally succeeding, by God!!!!) to simply replace the distributer rotor on my car......and then I really enjoyed that drink!
You've got a nice planer in hand - I really like the one I use - and if you solve the problem once, it will be solved once and for all.
Good luck!
I've had to epoxy a sacrificial bolt to bunged-up screws before, when it was in a recess where I couldn't get hold of it.
Paul,
I'll stay out of the arguments and just give you a solution. This is a fairly common problem, it has occurred on several brands of machines. It is a problem caused by improper assembly at the factory, so it should be covered by the warranty.
Put a grinding wheel or a reinforced cutting wheel on a Dremel and completely grind off the head of the bolt. You must wear eye protection when you do this. Forget trying to use EZ Outs and left hand drills, they won't work on hardened steel bolts that are solidly seized up.
If you grind carefully you won't do any damage to the bar under the bolt. Once the pressure on the bolt is released, the stub should back out easily, if it doesn't, then the threads are damaged and the entire cutter head should be replaced.
There is no reason, as someone else suggested, to put Loctite on the bolts when you reinstall them.
John White, FWW experts column contributor
John,There actually is a benefit of loctite beyond just holding screws in. Loctite excludes air and moisture, which avoids fasteners becoming rusted/corroded in with age. It also lubes the threads going in. I use it extensively in machine rebuilds, especially for:
- fasteners that are traditionally difficult to get back out (e.g. set screws, fine screws, ferrous screws into aluminum castings)
- fasteners that are irreplaceable (e.g. proprietary sizes on old machines)
- and of course, the standard use, fasteners that I wouldn't want to have back outFor those who aren't familiar with it, loctite comes in a zillion different flavors, including some that are near permanent. Blue loctite 242 is removable and widely available at hardware and auto parts stores.Pete
when you do get it out, when you replace them put neverseize on them and you won't have that problem again
Yup, anti-seize works too for many things, though it doesn't have the holding advantage of loctite and it's not as resistant to water and gunk. Getting even further OT, but the one place where anti-seize does have an advantage is a part that's going to get really hot, like an O2 sensor or spark plug.Pete
Hey, thanks a lot to everyone for your comments. I have read them with interest each night.I guess I kind of knew I should take it back but it takes a little while to come to terms with! Finally I choose a plan, get the wood AND have the TIME available.... then go nowhere because of this problem.So this weekend (after finally finding the receipt) I will make the 2 1/2 hour round trip to return it under warranty repair, then after a week spend another 2 1/2 hours to go get it again. As someone mentioned earlier I am dreading the "you-stripped-it/I-stripped-it" conversation but, as other commenters have said, for such an expensive brand-new tool it should be repaired/fixed/replaced properly.BUT - I have also ordered some replacement bolts to keep in the bottom drawer as spares. If I ever have this problem again, when the warranty is expired, I will DEFINATELY be grabbing my Dremel without thinking twice.I don't have any of the other screw-ezy out-remover-thingy's, but next trip to the hardware I will look out for them to add to my emergency kit.I genuinely appreciate EVERYONE's comments, and didn't expect to get so much help. Its turned my frown-upside-down! There are so many good ideas that will probably be really useful in the future for similiar tight jams.Thanks a lot for all your help. Will let you know if they fix it without dramas. Paul.
Just to clarify the point - I DIDN'T strip the Allen key heads - they were like that when I opened the lid - but how can I prove that to the repair guy? That's the conversation I wasn't looking forward to. It's interesting to hear that some others have said they had the same problem on their brand new machines. Maybe as someone commented they will take it to heart and report/upgrade their factory procedures at De Walt.
"but how can I prove that to the repair guy?"If you hadn't touched any of the bolts the way the metal lay around the hex from the wrench twisting out would have shown the direction of rotation and done most of the convincing for you. Won't help you now but maybe will for another purchaser of that batch of planers.
I doubt that this is just Dewalt's problem. Overtightened bolts and screws seem to be endemic to Chinese production lines. I've had a few from Delta.
Jim
Dear Paul,
Please consider the following:1) I agree that if they want to get cute, your supplier could claim that you stripped the bolt(s), but if they value your business, they will take your word at face value that the bolts were over-tightened from the factory. If you started butchering the bolt and THEN returned it, they would have a pretty good case of "Well it's hard to see what happened". Chances are, yours is not the first one that they have gotten back.2) If it were me (and it's not!) I would return it in exchange for a new unit. Why should you have to wait to get what you paid for? Let them take it and "recondition" it. Best,John
John & Paul,
Another thought with regard to the potential explanation/question part of your exercise, "Why would I deliberately strip these out when I know it's going to cost me at least 5 hours of running around trying to get it resolved?"
Not to mention the lost time for my project.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/21/2007 8:10 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Dear Bob,
"Another thought with regard to the potential explanation/question part of your exercise, "Why would I deliberately strip these out when I know it's going to cost me at least 5 hours of running around trying to get it resolved?"Not to mention the lost time for my project"ABSOLUTELY!!! Great point!Best,John
Paul, I think you're making the right decision. The downside to attempting to fix it yourself (grind off the bolts, drill the bolts, do whatever to the bolts) is that then you're really gonna have some explaining to do if it doesn't work and you still end up taking the machine back. I wouldn't worry too much about a fault-finding discussion at the service center -- I'm sure they've seen many planers with the same problem, so if you go in with a calm but confident demeanor, they should respond positively.
My Delta planer had super-tight bolts when I got it, and I remember something was overtightened on my drill press also. Seems to be a very common problem with factory assembly.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
OUCH! Five hours in the car to get a planer serviced!
You may want to call them first, explain the problem and see if they would let you at least try to free up the stuck bolt without penalizing you if you can't. Can't hurt to try. They're probably just going to throw a whole new cutter head on the thing either way.
That is, unless you have some secret ulterior motive for driving all that way.
"Honey, I need to drive into town to get my p . . . , er, my PLANER serviced. Yeah, that's it -- my Planer!" ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
In reference to your remark that antiseize compound on parts that get really hot the mechanic where I work says that the compound solidifies under high heat and doesn't help keep it free.
There are many different kinds of anti-seize compounds out there. Some of them are specifically intended for high temperatures.
-Steve
To explain the 5 hour trip -
I bought it from a wood show, from the "De Walt" stand, however the re-seller/invoicer was from out of town. When I started making enquiries about getting it serviced there is no local De Walt place I can take it to, and the reseller was adamant that I had to return the machine to them so that they could then send it to De Walt for repair (ie. I was not allowed to go directly to De Walt service - who, because I am in Australia - does not have a "real" De Walt service centre - it is farmed out to Black & Decker). When I contacted the Black & Decker service they told me the same thing - I have to take it back where I bought it from then they would go pick it up - hence the 5 hr trip. Crazy!However just now my, darling, wife has gotten off the phone from ringing all these different people AGAIN, and she found someone who said we can take it ANYWHERE De Walt products are sold and they will organise with De Walt (ie. Black & Decker Service here in Oz) to have it picked up and repaired. So she rang the local hardware who said "No worries - bring it in and we'll send it off for you". So I can take it to my local hardware this afternoon. Which is way better than driving 5 hours. Anyway... any trip to the hardware store has gotta be good, right?
Paul,
Please keep us posted.
1. It is an interesting story of customer service.
2. Many of us have the same item.
3. How will this influence your future purchases?
bum...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Don't you love it when a plan comes together?
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Just giving everyone a message about the (good) results.Dropped the De Walt Thicknesser into local(ish) hardware store. The don't sell thicknessers but are a De Walt dealer, so (De Walt service/Black & Decker Repairs in Australia) said it was ok to take it there. (However, the place where I bought it from was adamant I had to take it back to them an nobody else, but I didn't want to drive all the way out there).Anyway, was pretty painless dropping it off for service. Bit of a discussion with the girl on the counter as she wanted me to pay freight to send it to De Walt (Black & Decker), even though Black & Decker told me on the phone that there was nothing to pay - no charge at all - it was all part of the service - that I could drop it off ANYWHERE De Walt was sold and they would pick it up, repair and return it. So anyway we left the issue of freight until I was to pick the thicknesser up. (There was never any hint or possibility of getting a replacement thicknesser - even if I took it back to where I bought it from - I was always stuck with the same machine which was always going to be repaired at my time expense). 2 weeks later I rang to find out if it had been returned yet (De Walt/Black & Decker won't talk to me - I have to go through the dealer/store). They said no. Then rang me back and said yes. So I went to pick it up. The lady then despatched a young guy to the back to get it. 20 minutes later he came out with a large box that had the planer inside. I asked him if he had stopped at the pub on the way for a few beers as he took so long. He didn't really get it so I signed whatever he wanted and left. There was nothing to pay.De Walt/Black & Decker service had fixed/replaced the Allen screw bolts, as well as giving me a brand new T-tool. They flipped all the cutterheads around for me so it's ready to go.So all in all it was ok, but still cost me a whack of time to go to the hardware and stand around waiting for the staff to do what they get paid for. Anyone in Australia will probably know the hardware chain I'm talking about - lots of peppy ads with aprons on talking about how good they are, but when you go there you can never find anyone!!If it happened again tomorrow it would be a real hard and bitter pill to swallow to take it back again and give up another 2 weeks. I would be much more tempted to go straight to the hardware (a different one!) to buy some replacement Allen screw bolts then come home and whip out the Dremel. Then again... it is an expensive and new piece of machinery so why should I have to stuff with it.... It's definately taught me a new technique that I probably will never use on the thicknesser, but next time the lawnmower stuffs up.... whiirrrrr-zzzzeeerrrggghhh.... let the sparks fly!!
Just for information: Black and Decker is the parent company that makes DeWalt as one of its brand names, not a subcontractor.
I have to deal with stripped hex bolts quite a bit in my job- one method that works most of the time (and does not require grinding) is to get a torx driver (star shaped) that is just a little bit bigger than the round hole you have now. Hammer the torx bit into the hole, it will cut new groves and then you will have a lot of leverage to back the bolt out. Never seems like it will work but almost always gets the bolt out.
Grinding the head off is the foolproof and correct way- short of bringing the tool back to the shop- of getting the bolt out. I simply do not always have access to a grinder or dremel. The Torx method has served me very well over the last decade or so of removing these bolts. I would suggest replacing the stripped bolts with some version of a star bolt so you do not run into this problem again.
Throwing in my 2c.
Matt
This very same problem happened to me last night with a Delta 22-560 planer. My solution was simple. I used a Dremel small cutting wheel to cut a straight slot across the head of the allen screw, allowing me to use a regular slot screwdriver to back out the screw. Before using the screwdriver, I applied a small amount of penetrating oil to the base of the screw and let it soak in for 30 minutes or so. Worked like a charm.
If your going to try and do this your self you might also try some "freeze spray" basically this is a freon like liquid in an aerosol can that you spray on the offending screw the freezing effect can cause the threads to loosen just enough for you to get the little monster out. Take a look at Brownells the gunsmith supply co. they are on line and have a lot of things like that. I do tend to think the easiest thing to do would be to take the tool back. Either way good luck
Troy
Hi Paul
John is certainly on the right track. As a tool maker, I've pulled out lots of buggered SHCS (socket head cap screws - Allen Head - hex Head.
SHCS are typically only Grade 8 and can be easily drilled with a decent HSS drill. Size the drill to the stripped out head and follow the hole. Keep your speed reasonable - don't burn! The drill will magically pop the head off and relieve the pressure. Use needle nose whatevers to pull out the remaining screw. If its still tight, drill in farther and use an Easyout.
Have fun.
PLumo
A timely post. - lol
Over the weekend, I decided to do a little maintenance on my 6" Delta jointer and couldn't get two of the knife hold down bolts out. They're 1/4"-20 machine screws with button heads keyed for allen wrenches.
The six I was able to remove were a real struggle, and when I finally tried one of those "Grab-It" extractors, it wouldn't cut the head enough for the extractor to get a bite. (I guess the machine screws are hardened).
I took it to the local service center yesterday and they told me that they see this fairly often and usually have to heat the screw to get it loose. They also told me that this has to be done very carefully. The idea is to heat the screw just enough to break it loose, but not heat the cutterhead enough to distort it.
It should be done by late this week and I'll post back about how it comes out.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled