Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Jan 25, 2006 03:06pm | #1

   why use strips at all? just nail the crown at the bottom to the studs...

    

2. 
   MikeHennessy | Jan 25, 2006 04:24pm | #2

   Depending on the application, you may be able to get away with just nailing crown to the studs/joists, but maybe not, depending on the orientation of the structural members, where the bows/bumps in the ceiling/walls are, etc. Although I've done crown without backing, I prefer to use it. I generally rip 2Xs at the same angle that the crown makes (i.e., so it *almost* fills the hole behind the crown) and mount it first. Lots easier to nail to, and there's always wood behind the crown (instead of just drywall) where you need it to pull that sucker in just a bit!

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 25, 2006 05:39pm | #3

   I always put up a "backer" since you'll always need a nail where there's no stud.  I've worked out backer "systems" for different sizes of crown and make them up from 1x stock ripped to whatever width I need.  Once the backer is in, I can nail wherever I need to.

   
1. 
   EricAnderson | Jan 25, 2006 06:21pm | #4

   Dave,

   How are you holding the "hangers" on the wall?

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 26, 2006 06:05am | #5

   Eric -

   What!!??  You want me to give away my super-dooper, tippy top secret technique for hanging crown all by myself??  Of all the noive!! - lol

   Nothing to it actually.  I make the "brackets" out of scrap MDF, particle board, or whatever is laying around waiting to get tossed in the scrap bin.  They get nailed into a convenient stud with a couple of 6d or 8d finish nails at a height close to where the crown goes.  I sort of "roll" the crown into the "cradle" then start nailing at one end and work my way across the wall.

   These work fine for me since I'm a lefty.  I can't say if they would work for a righty - lol.

3. 
   WhatKnot | Jan 26, 2006 06:07am | #6

   Eric, the use of backers is not necessary, most folks don't do it, and for good reason. Crown is not structural it is ornamental. If your lid or wall surface is so bad that you think a backer board is going to help you, you are woefully wrong. The problem will only transmit to the crown. Fix the lid or wall first then put the crown up. After all, if its worthy of crown molding in the first place it is certainly worth fixing.

   Also, if you think the crown is going to fall off the wall with only a few nails in the bottom at the studs, just use a little PL or Liquid Nails and it will be there for as long as you let it be.

   The use of hanger strips works well but a more versital and cleaner method is to use two "Power Pole" extension poles. You stick it close on one end then the other,  jack it up into place and nail it off. (if your miters fit the first time... lol).

   Steve

   "You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey

   
   

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   Edited 1/25/2006 10:12 pm ET by WhatKnot

1. 
   John_D | Jan 26, 2006 12:36pm | #7

   After a sincere, helpful post by one lister on using a backer, you wrote:

   ...the use of backers is not necessary, most folks don't do it, and for good reason... If your lid or wall surface is so bad that you think a backer board is going to help you, you are woefully wrong.

   Then you wrote:

   "You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey

   I just thought it was funny.  :)My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

1. 
   WhatKnot | Jan 26, 2006 06:45pm | #8

   Ah, you may have fallen victim to the posting misinterpretation syndrome. There was nothing intentionally mean or unpleasant intended. Often interpretation of the written word is heavily influenced by our current mood. Mine was joyous and healthy when I wrote that. What was yours like?

   Then there's the flip side of the coin... The truth is not always as pleasant as we would want.

   John, if you like using backers by all means keep doing it. I've never used them unless there was no other way to do it and I've never had a problem. Steve

   "You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey

4. 
   jako17 | Jan 27, 2006 05:54pm | #9

   H-D is just fishing for weekend warriors and it is very successful! Even FWW is looking at that market.It is huge and wealthy.Now if only I can get carpenter in a tube to market!   <G>

   
   

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   Edited 1/27/2006 9:57 am ET by jako17

5. 
   loosejoints | Jan 28, 2006 04:44pm | #10

   My neighbor does finish carpentry and has a reputation for doing very high quality work.  He rips sheets of MDF into strips for use as a backer for crown moulding.  He does not stack the strips though.   He miters the edges so that he can mount them diagonally between the ceiling and the wall.

    

   Roger

                                                                   

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 28, 2006 05:40pm | #11

   Loosejoints -

   That's an interesting idea, but it seems like you would have the same problem nailing up the MDF backer as you have if you just nail up the crown.  (i.e. having to find the studs.)

   The first piece of my strip "buildup" is nailed into the wall top plate and any additional pieces are nailed to it.  I couldn't care less where the studs or ceiling joists are since the crown will be nailed directly to the backer.  

   I do have to admit that my method takes a while and involves several more trips up and down the ladder which seems much more difficult these days - lol.  Can you get some more info from your neighbor?  I'm always up for learning a new technique that can save me some time...........and sore muscles.

    

1. 
   loosejoints | Jan 28, 2006 06:27pm | #12

   He runs a screw through the middle of the backer into the top plate.  Because the backer is on a diagonal between the wall and ceiling, the crew goes in an upward diagonal direction into the top plate.  Works well for him.

    

   Roger

1. 
   Dave45 | Jan 28, 2006 09:09pm | #13

   AHA!!!  I hadn't even thought of using screws.

   That's one of those "new techniques" I was talking about!!  I can see where that would cut the ladder time by a significant amount and cut down on my Ibuprofen bill - lol

   Thanks!

6. 
   IdahoDon | Jan 28, 2006 09:59pm | #14

   Hi all, I'm just visiting from the Breaktime side.  Snow has me sitting here instead of working, but that's construction.

   With all the talk of crown, it hasn't been mentioned that what you need for backing depends on the situation.  It's overly simplistic to suggest that every crown job does or doesn't need backing.

   Like most things in construction, we try to use as little as possible, but as much as necessary.  Tiny solid wood crown on straight walls probably doesn't need much.  MDF crown typically needs more support than solid wood simply because it's more pliable and doesn't hold nailheads as well. 

   It's also easy to say that if a wall is so uneven that crown needs to be manipulated to fit properly that the wall needs to be fixed.  That's a nice thought and good practice if you have any control of the sheetrock when it's put in, but it's not practical in many real world situations.  On snakey walls we'll use a lot of backer because many more nails will be needed and they will have to hold more pressure on the trim.  If we're responsible for the framing we'll put the backing behind the sheetrock.

   As for the material used, it's usually what's left over in the scrap pile.  If the scrap pile was empty I'd prefer to use 3/4" ply since it holds nails and is stronger than mdf, doesn't have knots and twists as does framing lumber, and can be ripped as narrow or wide as desired.  I've never used MDF since it's either hard to set a smaller gauge nail in, or it flakes apart on the ends and won't hold a nail, but most finish carps now have piles of MDF scraps that should be used for something worthwhile, and there's not much it's good for.

   The shape of backing often varies a great deal based on the conditions.  1/4" ply stacked up in layers is used for curves, simple 3/4" strips can be used for moderate size crown, while big crown often requires much wider blocking that fits closer to the molding since nails are only so long.  Smallish crown often works well with a tapered backing as well since the space behind it is at a premium and it needs as much beef as possible.  Any time extra support is needed it's a good idea to have a wedge with smallish, say 1/4" gap, behind the crown.  If a wall has a double top plate, or even a triple, we'll often not need to worry about the lower edge of a moderate size crown and simply install something for the upper portion to grip onto.

   You have to know what's behind the walls before going more than 1-1/4" deep into the framing with new construction.  With older construction not necessarily built to today's codes, you're on your own and it's wise to invest in a fancy stud finder that will also locate wires/metal pipes. 

   We just finished building a large addition/remodel of a very nice house and one junior carpenter was using his cheap stud finder to mark studs and marked a cluster of romex wires going up into the second floor as a stud.  Had someone not seen this we would have shot a half dozen nails into this cluster of wires, directly below the nail plate, which only protects the top plate, not the studs below.

   If a nail does catch a wire, which by the way is the most common reason for house fires as the arc produced, either today or 10 years from now, produces a great amount of heat and quickly ignites the stud/wire.  I've only experienced the arc that can be produced once in 10 years, and luckily it wasn't an enclosed wire, but rather in an extension cord, but the arc intensity and resulting fire scared the heck out of me.  It only took 5 seconds for a 2' flame to erupt from the melting cord sheath.

   Sometimes thick backing is nailed with a framing nailer, sometimes screwed, sometimes simply attached with the finish gun.  On thick plaster or concrete, tapcon screws and construction adhesive may be ideal, maybe it can simply be shot on with a ramset.  Mostly I'll use a 15g with the longest nails that won't endanger wires, quickly shooting a half dozen into each stud.

   Backing is also dependent on what you're attaching the crown with.  A 15g has a long reach, but can split dry oak on thin edges or ends, so an 18g might be needed, which needs closer backing, or backing in the middle of corner will allow the 15g to be used more in the middle section of the profile.  You might be able to reach studs and top plates with a 16g or 18g, but if the plaster is hard, the nails will have a difficult time reliably driving true and a wood backer is a better solution.

   For the highest quality stain-grade crown, where all nails are placed in the least visible locations, backing is a necessity since you don't want an evenly spaced set of puttied over nail holes.  Also, sometimes it's impossible to attach a section with nails since there is something right under the sheetrock skin.  It's often easier to use construction adhesive to hold a backer and later nail to the backer, or the backer will be stiff enough to span the no-nail section.

   For one person crown installs I make a simple "L" bracket out of 1/2" ply, about 3" on each side.  Simply tack it onto a stud, with the nail hole slightly above what will be the lower portion of the crown to hide the mark.  If an 18g with rather short brad is used, it's easy enough to pull out as you get close enough to reach it.  Others make temperary support with a pole having a short shelf on the end that is leaned against the wall.  I'd want a carpet strip or something to cushion the shelf and prevent marks on the paint.

   At least that's my view from the cheap seats.  :-)

   Good crowning to all,

   Don

    

7. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 29, 2006 11:08pm | #15

   In my house, I have used a decorative trim strip against the wall that shows at the bottom of the crown.  I bought 1x12 pine boards, cut 2" strips, and ran them through the molding head cutters on my table saw to get a complimentary decorative edge.  It really adds to the effect of the crown, in my opinion.  It also help with uneven walls and gives more places to nail the crown.  It all was painted with oil base paint.

   Houses, actually.  I have put crown in two of my houses.  Also have done this several times commercially.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood