Replies

1. 
   RalphBarker | Feb 08, 2010 12:11pm | #1

   My guess would be that the dovetails were cut after the components were shaped. The layout issue strikes me as similar to that encountered with tilt-out sides on tool and garden trays, as shown in Tage Frid's book, where the DTs are kept horizontal, rather than perpendicular to the edge of the sides.

   If you reverse the square head on a combination square, and then add the protractor head, that gives you a vertical and an adjustable horizontal reference surface upon which the bevel gauge can be held for marking. Alternatively, a jig could be made to accomplish the same task. A separate jig would probably be needed to hold the curved pieces in the proper position.

1. 
   9619 | Feb 08, 2010 03:07pm | #3

   Ralph,

   Very insightful. I did notice that the tails and pins were "horizontal", and I have seen one writeup on how to do that in making a cradle. But the curves threw me for a loop. Now I see that they come last - after careful and meticulous dovetailing on thick stock. I appreciate that. I will look up Frid's writeup.

   Thank you very much.

   Mel

2. 
   Metod | Feb 08, 2010 01:30pm | #2

   Mel,
   Ralph's pointer to Tage
   Mel,

   Ralph's pointer to Tage Frid seems to be a good one. I noticed that the inside faces form an inverted truncated rectangular pyramid. For this reason I believe (or: that's how would I make one) that the pyramid was built first, using thick stock, and then the outside surfaces shaped to curved form. The dovetails would have to be cut with great precision because any interior imperfections would come to light when removing the material. Looking at the glue lines, there seemed to be a wee bit of give and take - it still would not look bad next to my name...

   Take care,

   Metod

1. 
   9619 | Feb 08, 2010 03:10pm | #4

   Metod,
   We haven't talked in a
   Metod,

   We haven't talked in a while. Thank you for your reply. I really was stumped by this one, but knew that there is an explanation. Now I "Understand" it. That doesn't mean that I can "do" it. This idea of the inverted rectangular pyramid in thick stock which is then shaped after dovetailing opens up some new vistas for me for the future. As I told Ralph, I will look up Tage Frid's writeup. I appreciate the help.

   Mel

3. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 08, 2010 03:22pm | #5

   Mel, the order would have almost certainly been to execute the bevelled hopper dovetails in thick material, glue up the hopper and any gubbins required inside and the lid and base; shape the outside faces of the sides, cut off the lid, hinge the lid, attach the handle, attach the metal feet things; finish up by doing all the inlays/marquetry. Something like that anyway, although I noticed there was mention of tenons that I didn't investigate in detail, so I may have the sequence a bit out of order.

   It's essentially the same order as making a normal box with the extra step of shaping the sides after glue-up and before cutting off the lid. Slainte.

   Edited to add the method of setting out the dovetails below.

   Double bevel dovetail joints.

   A full size drawing is necessary from which the true length (A) and true width (B) can be obtained, see below; also the edge bevel in the thickness of each piece shown by the arrowed lines (C). All the bevels are marked and worked holdingthe bevel gauge at right angles to the edges of the sloping ends and not parallel with the sides.

   A marking gauge cannot be used for setting out the dovetails; their depths, etc must be marked with pencil and adjustable bevel. The dovetails are cut to slope equally either side of lines drawn parallel with the top and bottom edge of the tail board, see elevation, top left in image. The sawn edges of the matching pins are, of course, parallel with the edges of the board from which they are cut.

   In cutting the dovetails described above the piece of wood should be canted to bring the cuts vertical, see right hand drawing below. Marking the pins by drawing the saw point through the tail kerfs is difficult owing to the slope. Therefore it is better to chop out the dovetails and mark round them on to the pin piece with an awl.

   View Image

1. 
   9619 | Feb 08, 2010 03:42pm | #6

   Richard,

   Thank you very much for that post. I will look up the Joyce book, and do some studying. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your response. That was really good of you. THere is a very nice feeling that comes from knowing you don't understant a phenomenon, and then seeing the light.

   I wrote to the guy who made the box and asked him the same question. So far, no response. If he does respond, I'll post his response here. Given the fact that he made this box and also an infill plane, he is not without skill.

   Thank you very much.

   Mel

1. 
   RalphBarker | Feb 08, 2010 09:19pm | #8

   It will be interesting to hear what the maker has to say about his box/chest.

   Before making my guess, I first thought about making the dovetails in thick stock, and then contouring the outside surfaces. In looking at the pins, however, the narrow ends appear to be of a consistent size, and the ends of the pins follow the straight, but angled, inside surface. If the angle of the sides of the pins are projected toward the trimmed-away surface, I felt they would diminish to zero width before reaching the surface, hence my post-contouring guess.

   The pins do, however, lengthen a bit toward the top of the box. That suggests the original stock might have been wedge shaped, the dovetails created in these wedge-shaped pieces, and the majority of the contouring taking place near the top.

   Interesting puzzle to figure out, certainly.

1. 
   9619 | Feb 09, 2010 11:38am | #12

   Ralph,
   You said you would be
   Ralph,

   You said you would be interested in what the box maker, Matteo, had to say about how he made his box. Well, he must be a very nice guy, because he took the time to write me a long explanation, and he did it quickly. I suggested that he join Knots. I believe he would really be an asset around here. Knots is made up mostly of VAMPIRES. WE NEED NEW BLOOD.

   Here is Matteo's explanation.

   "

   I made the dovetails in the following manner:

   *Mark the shoulders on the square edged, angled stock

   *Mark the tails on the face of the boards. Since the boards are angled, the tails are cut 7 degrees from an imaginary horizontal line, not 7 degrees from the edge.

   *Transfer the tails at the secondary angle to the back of the board, then cut them out. I scribe my joints with a fine japanese knife. Then hand saw the tails. Afterwards I tilted my drill press table and hogged out the space between them. It's then just a matter of chopping out the shoulders and parring down the sides. I bought a fancy japanese dovetail chisel to get into these tight angles. Since then I've taken to buying cheap, old american chisels on ebay and grinding them down to whatever profile that I need. (I'm a big fan of Witherby steel. Some of these have become my favorites). You can not "cheat" the sides of the tails. Because the peice will be carved, the entire surface of the tails and pins have to be in contact.

   *With the tails cut, I set the box up and transfer my lines for the pins. I transfer the lines horizontally to the shoulder and cut them in the same manner as the tails.

   *After the glue up, I run the box on the table saw and put kerfs in the thick stock to rough out the cross section. This helps all four sides to have a uniform profile after the final shaping. I make test cuts first! Running a kerf too deep at this point would only make your local bartender happy.

   *I draft, in full scale, every last detail before I begin a peice. I don't like to "think" in the shop. I've been timber framing these last few years and do the same thing. Only instead of paper, I draw on the shop floor. If you draw something out, then you've already built it once in your head. If you can draw it, you can build it.

   Thanks for the interest,

   Mel. Let me know if that was helpful at all,

   Mateo.

1. 
   RalphBarker | Feb 09, 2010 01:01pm | #13

   Thanks for posting Mateo's
   Thanks for posting Mateo's reply, Mel.

   Part of the challenge in figuring these things out from photos is that the angle at which the photo was taken doesn't always represent the dimensional relationships accurately, particularly if a wide-angle lens was used.

2. 
   9619 | Feb 09, 2010 01:06pm | #15

   Ralph,

   Yup.

   Mel

   PS People have long said that I use too many words. I am trying to change. :-) Hey I started a thread about an infill plane on Ebay. If you get a chance, I'd like to hear your ideas on that plane.

3. 
   RalphBarker | Feb 09, 2010 01:34pm | #16

   "Yup"

   I assume you said that with a Gary Cooper-style straight face? ;-)

4. 
   9619 | Feb 09, 2010 02:28pm | #19

   Ralph,

   Yup,

   Mel

4. 
   joinerswork | Feb 08, 2010 09:06pm | #7

   Mel,
   It's simple, just like
   Mel,

   It's simple, just like dovetailing the drawers for the base of a bombe` chest.

   http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Chests_and_Cabinets&spgmPic=3&spgmFilters=#pic

   Any fool can do it.

   Ray

1. 
   9619 | Feb 08, 2010 11:09pm | #9

   Ray,

   I checked out your bombe chest.

   That might just be the most beautiful piece of furniture ever made. You are a God.

   Now that you have shown me it is possible, do you know of any written explanations of how to make dovetails for the drawers of a bombe chest?

   Thank you very much.

   Mel

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 09, 2010 10:36am | #10

   Thanks Mel,

   While the fellow who designed the original may have had divine inspiration, I am simply a copyist.

   The text cited above by Richard is as good as any written explanation could be. Just need to make the stock of adequate thickness, and shape the outside of the drawer box as needed. If I could do it, most anyone can.

   Ray

1. 
   9619 | Feb 09, 2010 11:35am | #11

   Ray,
   Referring to you as a
   Ray,

   Referring to you as a "mere copyist" for making fantastic furniture designed by others is like calling Yo Yo Ma a "cello playing hack" because he plays the works of others. To my way of thinking, you are to woodwork what Yo Yo is to music.

   By the way, the man who made the box sent me instructions on how he did it. I will post them in a minute. Ralph asked me to, so I will do it in response to his message. I would like to hear your comments on Matteo's explanation.

   Mel

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 09, 2010 02:02pm | #17

   Mel,

   You are not the first to call me a yo-yo. I've been called worse things, than that, though, and by better people.

   Hahah.

   Mateo's description makes sense to me. Sounds like a get 'er done kinda guy.

   Ray

2. 
   RalphBarker | Feb 09, 2010 01:04pm | #14

   "Any fool can do it."
   That's
   "Any fool can do it."

   That's pretty optimistic, Ray, since this fool has some self-doubts. ;-)

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 09, 2010 02:04pm | #18

   Self-doubts, Ralph, are what hold you back. It's only wood. Give 'em a shot, you may surprise yourself, or at least make some real purty kindling...

   Ray