Replies

1. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 17, 2003 08:01pm | #1

   ii -

   ah, yeah.  All depends on the appearance your trying to achieve.  I use grain filler before staining.  Never tried using it after staining.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

2. 
   hammer1 | Nov 17, 2003 08:10pm | #2

   Grain fillers were most often reserved for the highest end work where a piano like finish is desired. This type of finish will highlight any minor surface imperfections in the work. They can be used for some unusual effects, bright red in walnut, eg. The paste like filler must be worked into the open pores and then abraded off. It may take more than one application. If you want the filler and the wood to be the same color then fill before staining. Do a test to make sure the filler will accept your stain. If you want the filler to be a different color, stain the board and seal. When applying the filler you can color it first but you need to use a very fine abrasive such as burlap to avoid rubbing through. Companies like Behlen specialize in a variety of fine products that are available in small quantities, contact them for info on application of their products. Make sure you use compatible materials and have fun.

1. 
   catseye | May 06, 2004 08:59pm | #14

   I have never figured out how to use the paste filler referred to here.  I've tried it to fill oak, etc but I find that it never "dries" or hardens for nice sanding.  It always remains pastey.  Am I using it improperly or using the wrong stuff or what??? Help.

1. 
   Mackwood | May 06, 2004 11:56pm | #15

   CatsEye,

   To you and all the other "stupid question" folks out there; there is no such thing as a stupid question, only the stupid things that happen as a result of not asking the question! 

   Keep asking, the folks on this forum are happy to help!!

   Regards,

   Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

2. 
   mike4244 | May 07, 2004 12:29am | #16

   I have used grain filler every so often, not an expert though. Usually the stuff i use hazes over in less than an hour. Did you thin the filler? I do not thin it until about 1/3rd of the can is left. By that time enough solvent has evaporated that it needs a little more. I keep the lid on as much as possible. The only time filler took a while to harden when the weather was cool.I never sand grain filler, I remove the excess by wiping across the grain with burlap.First I remove as much as possible with a taping knife across the grain  (round off corners of knife or use a plastic one).I make a pad out of 12' squares of clean burlap ( garden stores carry burlap). Fold burlap several times to make a pad, expose fresh burlap as it fills with finish.When no filler comes off the burlap you are done. I wait 48 hours before topcoating.

   mike

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | May 07, 2004 12:46am | #17

   There's an article on using pore filler at this link - http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/fillers.shtml

   Sounds like you didn't give the filler time to dry (or maybe used the wrong product?).

   Paul

4. 
   hammer1 | May 07, 2004 05:38pm | #18

   CatsEye, it is somewhat rare that people use grain fillers these days. The real purpose is to get a perfectly flat surface so that you can put on a mirror like finish on a fine piece of furniture. Oak is not often the choice for such work. Mahogany and walnut also have porous grains and are more likely to be used since their annual growth habit is more uniform. Other than on expensive pianos most companies don't use grain fillers. That being said, there is no reason you can't try to make it work for you. What are you using for filler? Most paste like grain fillers, not nail hole fillers, are applied after a light sealer coat. Before starting I use a clean air gun to blow out the surface. The filler has to be worked into the grain either by a circular motion with rags, a squeege or plastic putty knife. You may have to repeat this process several times. Clean off the excess and let filler dry over night, maybe days in humid conditions, before sanding. I have only used fresh oil based fillers by Bri-wax and Behlen and have not had drying problems following directions. Sandpaper will load up if not dry. If an oil stain or other oil product was used before the grain filler you may encounter drying issues. The little grain pores act like little ponds and the oils may not dry for several days or more. It would help if you were more specific about your steps and products. Include everything you do to the raw wood, tack rags, naptha wash, level and method of sanding, sealers, stains, top coats, etc. Sometimes a simple thing will adversely affect other finishing steps.

   Edited 5/7/2004 10:53 am ET by Hammer

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 08, 2004 06:55am | #19

   "it is somewhat rare that people use grain fillers these days."

   Hammer,

   Which people are you referring to? Industry, or individual woodworkers?

   I use pore fillers frequently when finishing ring-porous and diffuse-porous woods, as do many of the fine woodworkers I know, so I'm a little surprised by your post.

    -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   hammer1 | May 09, 2004 08:31am | #20

   jazzdog, I was making a general observation based on what I have been seeing in furniture stores, shows, fairs and the like. I will say that, in this forum, I'm much more likely to see a reverence for the old time way of doing things.

2. 
   SgianDubh | May 09, 2004 11:30am | #21

   Hammer, if you investigate a bit deeper you'll find that top quality antique furniture from the 1700's and 1800's often had the grain filled, so it's not really a new technique. The old timers used plaster, pumice, polish, colourants and the like to achieve the job.

   Apart from the modern grain fillers in a convenient can I do resort to using coloured plaster of paris to do the job if I'm after a particular effect. Slainte.RJFurniture

2. 
   Miami | May 10, 2004 06:59am | #22

   Oak and similarly open pored woods are not usually the first choice for pieces expected to get a mirror finish as I understand. 

   However, George Frank in his book illustrates some very striking effects in open-pored oak dyed and filled with a contrasting grain filler - red dye with yellow grain filler, black dye with white grain filler, etc.

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0806965630/qid=1084160933/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-2593614-3093548?v=glance&s=books

   Clay

3. 
   forestgirl | Nov 17, 2003 08:26pm | #3

   JJ, there are no stupid questions re: grain filling!   It can be a real challenge, and is one I've yet to meet successfully, LOL.  The "stain before or after" question is one I've asked a dozen times. 

   What brings you to asking this question?  Is there a particular project?   

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   scooter1 | Nov 17, 2003 08:54pm | #4

   Sand to 180.

   Stain.

   Sand at 220 (if water based stain is used)

   Seal with DEWAXED Shellac 2 lb cut

   Fill with either water or oil based filler (Each has its own pluses and minuses)

   Seal again

   Topcoat(s)

   Filling is only necessary for table tops in my opinion.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

2. 
   joelj84 | Nov 18, 2003 02:05am | #5

   Hi Forest,

   Well, it's kinduva long story, but you asked:).  I have a boat-load of mahogany that I saved from my sister house.  (She tore out a study that was paneled in solid 4/4 mahogany...I don't know which is more crazy...)  Now I'm considering doing some built in cabinets in my study out of that mahogany. 

   My problem is, I don't like the unfinished mahogany look(which is what my sister had and was the reason she tore it out.), but I also don't like the dark stained mahogany look.  What I'm going for is that "flamed" mahogany look so I've been experimenting with transtint dyes, stains, and lime, but so far I've not found a combo that makes me happy.My wife says I'm obsessed (which may very well be true), but if I can't find just the right tone I'm leaning toward going with cherry.Any ideas out there?

   Sincerely,

   Stained out

1. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 18, 2003 02:19am | #6

   Not sure how dark your H. Mahog (?) is or how red you want your flame grain.

   Cut up a dozen sample scraps and plane or sand them for testing.  Try bleaching a few with an oxalic acid slurry for a lighter color.

   I generally stain or dye first and then fill with one of the diatomaceous earth oil-based ones like Behlen's, followed by bartop varnish.  I also use glazes in the sealer or first finish coat to hise various defects...that's where you can play with your "flame" attempts safely...they can always be sanded off.

   For mirror finishes nuthin beats sanding sealer as the sealer coat over a couple coats of leveled filler.  It's made in flavors compatible with either lacquer or varnish...and maybe the new ones both, I don't really know...so read the label.

   Color and glaze, if any, you're gonna have to play with on the scraps.

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 18, 2003 04:47am | #7

   "Try bleaching a few with an oxalic acid slurry for a lighter color."

   Bob,

   In my experience, oxalic acid is great for removing metallic stains from wood, but the product to use if you want to lighten the color of the wood tissue is the two-part bleach that combines peroxide and lye. With it, you can make walnut blonde (why anyone would want to is another story), whereas oxalic acid will have little effect on the color of the wood.

   PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 18, 2003 05:02am | #8

   I don't work with H. Mahog much so I don't have pics...but if you can get Woodenboat Nov/Dec2002 No 169, page 28 has a whole article on exactly that.

   Doesn't bleach it white, but gives it a crisp, light look.  But like anything else, it has to be played with...even woods of the same species react differently when it comes to color.

   Edited 11/17/2003 9:04:33 PM ET by Bob

2. 
   forestgirl | Nov 18, 2003 06:24am | #9

   JJ, looks like you're getting some good help from those who know.  Good luck with your project!

   FGforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   RMillard | Nov 18, 2003 03:04pm | #10

   JJ,

   Filling grain is my least favorite finishing chore and at the same time the most important step for truly professional finish. There is nothing difficult about, it is just messy and boring. I have not used water based fillers. To me clarity is the hallmark of a great finish, so I never apply the filler to bare wood. I dye the wood and then seal it with an extremely thin coat of shellac. Many times, since I use oil tinted with dyes to color the wood, I will apply the filler over the oil after the oil has had a day to dry, this way I speed up the process, as both the filler and oil can be curing at the same time. I always let the filler dry at least 3 days before top coating. I apply filler to all surfaces except turnings and carved areas.

   I slap the filler on, with a cheap brush and let it set until it is quite hard and then scrape the bulk off with a plastic putty knife. Then wipe across the grain with burlap, turning the cloth to expose a fresh area as it loads. I feel the most important step it to lightly buff with the grain using a wad of cheesecloth, as this will remove any streaks left from the burlap. For species like oak and ash a second coat of filler a day apart may be necessary, and I sometimes do this for mahogany. Before applying the top coat I look carefully for any streaks or other areas where the filler has built up, and remove these with synthetic abrasive pad and naphtha. I also buff the most visible surfaces with a dry abrasive pad.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   joelj84 | Nov 19, 2003 12:17am | #11

   Is the filler itself tinted to bring out the grain or is it typically clear?

   I'm trying to understand what give mahogany it's contrast between the "red" areas and the "grain".

1. 
   scooter1 | Nov 19, 2003 02:12am | #12

   Filler is either colored or neutral.

   If colored, then one matches or contrasts the colored filler with the wood color and the stain placed below it.

   If neutral, it will contrast slightly with the previously stained wood, but since the holes are so small, it will be barely noticeable, except maybe on White Oak. You can also color or tint the filler to match your stain.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

2. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 19, 2003 08:59am | #13

   JJ,

   I've experimented on test pieces by coloring pore filler with either Japan color or Universal Tinting Colors. The results can be as mild or as wild as you like. How about bright red pore filler against a field of oak dyed jet black!

   Experiment on some test pieces and have fun - life's too short not to try strange things once in a while just for the fun of it ; - )

   PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.