Replies

1. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Jun 06, 2002 09:27am | #1

   According to USDA Forest Service nomenclature, Bur oak (Q. macrocarpa) is in the white oak group.

   This grouping is generally associated with rounded lobed leaves, butt swell of the log and its suitability for tight cooperage.  Generally once cut, it is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to differentiate within the white oak grouping based on visual differences in wood anatomy.

2. 
   UncleDunc | Jun 06, 2002 10:46am | #2

   I have a little piece of some kind of oak that I salvaged from a pallet. It's about 2 x 2-1/2", maybe 14" long. I haven't tried to identify it with a microscope, but in the right light I can see the tyloses in the pores, so it's some flavor of white oak. The exciting part is that it has 60+ annual rings corner to corner across the end. It has real pretty ray flecks, but not very big. I haven't decided what to do with it yet. One thing I've thought about is a 1/4 scale machinist's tool chest, or maybe several of them in different scales.

   I fumed some samples with ammonia and got a beautiful rich brown with kind of a greenish background. (Sounds ghastly, doesn't it?)

3. 
   DaveHeinlein | Jun 07, 2002 02:26am | #3

   I have used Rock or Chestnut oak which I think is closer to Burr oak, and it's a shade darker than clean white oak. It also seems a tad harder.

4. 
   JosephJohn32 | Jun 07, 2002 10:19am | #4

   Hi Jake,

   You should ask Jon Arno about this.  An expert and author on wood varieties, he would know the answer.  You can probably e-mail him through this forum, I've seen entries by him before.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he will happen to catch this. 

   Good luck.

   "Hide not your talents, they were for use made. What's a sun-dial in the shade?"                

   - Benjamin Franklin

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jun 07, 2002 05:09pm | #5

   I've been lurking, but don't have much to add. Bur oak is typically just a little less dense and usually slightly coarser textured than eastern white oak (Quercus alba.) Its average specific gravity is 0.58 vs white oak's 0.60. A lot of it is used for making flooring. I suspect this is the case, because bur oak is plentiful in the open, oak grove - prairie regions of the western Midwest. The trees often branch out low...so, the logs tend to be short. Random length T&G flooring makes one of the more efficient uses for them, given this limitation.

   Buying oak lumber can be tricky, since there are about 50 species of oaks native to the US and the lumber trade separates them into only two basic categories: white oak and red oak...although sometimes live oak is segregated as a third category, because of its extreme density and diffuse-porous anatomy. It's a rational system, considering the traditional uses for these woods. The pores in the white oaks are clogged with tyloses, which allows white oak lumber to be used for tight cooperage. The red oaks lack this feature, so it can't be used for kegs designed to hold liquids...This isn't a critical issue anymore (unless you're in the wine or whiskey business)...but it was a big deal in the 19th century when containers for virtually everything were made of wood.

5. 
   fdampier | Jun 08, 2002 04:14am | #6

   Jake,

     look around for any Bur oaks with rough knobby bumps all over and lots of little twiglets.  That may be a burl, bur oak. Don't quarter saw those.  plain saw them and you will get some beautifull burl oak.   (it will look like the dash of a Rolls Royce if you put a coat of high gloss varnish on it).

       Regular white oak seldom burls.  Bur will do it occassionally (something like once every 500,000 trees)

1. 
   PlaneWood | Jun 08, 2002 05:25am | #7

   I understand that there are basically 2 groups (families) of oaks - Black Oak and White Oak.  One way to tell what group a particular tree is in is to check the leaves.  The Black Oak members will have little barbs (small stickers) sticking out at end of the veins on the leaf.  Members of the White Oak family will have leaves that are smooth on the edges.  Each group has many members with many varieties substituted for the true White Oak.  Obviously, the true White Oak is a member of the White Oak family.

   I recently worked with some Live Oak which finishes nicely and is very hard.  Makes good mallets.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

1. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Jun 08, 2002 08:02am | #8

   Frenchy:

   The black oaks are included in the Red oak group according to USDA Forest Service nomenclature.  You are also correct about leaf anatomy.  Further red oaks do not have the any butt swell in the log and are not decay resistant (as is the heartwood of white oaks).

   If I am not mistaken, the name bur oak comes from a description of the acorn.  But then again, in all my schooling at Penn State when I was getting my Master's degree in Wood Science and Utiliztion (a very unrecognized and under-appreciated effort), we did not spend any time studying foliage. 

1. 
   PlaneWood | Jun 09, 2002 02:07am | #9

   Stanley - It's my understanding that the true Red Oak is a member of the Black Oak family.  There is not a Red Oak family.  There are different varietifes of Red Oak, but all are members of the Black Oak family.  In other words, all Oaks are classified as either in the Black Oak family or in the White Oak family.  This is my understanding.  Is it true??

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jun 09, 2002 07:48am | #11

   I think "black oak" is more of a botanical term, especially among European botanists, while "red oak" is the more common term used in the lumber industry. They both refer to the same group of oak species. This group of species produce woods that tend to have a reddish hue, but the trees also tend to produce darker bark (suggesting the "black" reference?)

   There are over 600 species of oaks worldwide and a little under 10% (about 50 or so species) are native to the US. Mexico actually hosts more native species than any other country with about 120 species (mostly of the live oak or evergreen variety.) The oaks tend to produce hybrids easily, providing botanists with a marvelous opportunity to disagree on the taxonomy and number of species in this genus (Quercus)...and that's one of their favorite pastimes anyway. On the other hand, wood tech types, like Stanley and me, generally agree on just about everything, so there's no need for more than the two groups: white and red, and the sub category; live oak.  

2. 
   JosephJohn32 | Jun 09, 2002 04:37am | #10

   Yes the name of the Bur Oak comes from the characteristics of the acorn.  We have quite a few down here in N. Texas.  They are very large acorns, some the size of golf balls, and have a bushy, prickly, burry top to them."Hide not your talents, they were for use made. What's a sun-dial in the shade?"                

   - Benjamin Franklin

6. 
   Jake1969 | Jun 11, 2002 02:28am | #12

   Thank you to every one who has commented on my topic.  I appreciate the help on my question and have learned alot.

   Thanks again,

   Jake