I am replacing rotten exterior window sills on my 1830 house–some of you may have seen the photos in Breaktime–thank you for your ideas. I decided to stay with wood–I want to keep this house as “real” as possible–but also, I didn’t want to lay up Azek in layers. I need almost 3″ of thickness. I don’t want any seams.
Some of you suggested I use white oak for replacement window sill stock. It’s just not available in the size I need: 42″ x 2.75″ x 9″. Then I tried getting mahogany, but it’s priced at roughly $200 per sill after all the ups and extras. So the wood man has suggested I use sugar pine, at half the price of mahogany. He says they’ll both last at least 75 years (remember, they’re going to carry me out of this house–no shortcuts). What do you think about sugar pine? Your experience with longevity and resistance to rot? After learning the price, I almost wanted to price out the limestone idea!
Thank you for all your ideas.
Marc
Replies
I'm not sure that second growth sugar pine is going to have the longevity you want- rot may well be a problem. I would favor Doug fir instead- it should be available in the size you need, and will be much less expensive than mahogany. Check out prices and selection for the clear grade.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hi Marc,
Being from the south (born and raised in Louisiana, currently living in Miss), I wouldn't be able to use either for exterior use because of humidity, termites, etc. But being in Ohio, you could probably get away with it. What about cypress? I know for sure I can get it in 3" thickness from my local lumberyard. Sound like the sugar pine will cost you $100 per sill. If your'e interested I will call and check on the price of the cypress, depending on how many you need, it may be cheaper to buy that and ship it. It will last 100 years in south Louisiana, so I dont think Ohio would be a problem. Just a thought.
Lee
Marc,
I have a 1860 home, I replace the bad sills on it with pressure treated yellow pine, you can get it at any lumber yard.
Jack
Fayette County Ohio
The sills are almost 3 inches thick?
John W.
Yes, at least 2.75" thick. Photos attached. You can see what I'm up against.
Many thanks for the ideas. And mapleman, thanks for the offer to check cyprus prices for me. I will check here first.
Poster over in Breaktime suggested salvaged barn oak beams. I suppose that would be a good source for very dry white oak!
Marc
I would also check the availability of clear red cedar in your area. I have used a lot of this for exterior casings and sills. Even though it is soft, it holds up extremely well over time -- as long as you prime it with an alkyd paint. Unless you find a source of post stock, I doubt if you will find much of anything that is 3" thick. I would just glue two pieces of 1 1/2" stock.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Since it will be painted, how about laminating pressure treated lumber to get the thickness you are looking for? Or cut down thicker lumber, 4x4. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Have you given any thought to rebuilding the existing sills using Abatron epoxy products? There are many positives to going this route. The sills can be salvaged in place. Done properly the repair will last nearly forever. Once the sills are painted you can't tell the difference anyway. Abatron makes both liquid and a wood dough-like epoxy product. The only downside to this process is the price, it is a little pricey but I don't think that it way out of line. I have rebuilt rotted porch posts that are weight bearing using this product, the only way to tell the repairs is that I couldn't imitate the edges of previously peeling paint like the rest of the post. I also use this stuff to seal the bottom 12" of new turned porch posts to resist future rot. If you decide to go this route please contact me as I would be happy to turn you on to some of the tricks that I learned while working with this products system.
I think Abatron is a great product.But -- years ago, I used it on some sills in my own house without much luck. I used their Liquid epoxy to harden up the sills, then filled the dry rotted portions with their regular epoxy filler.The repaired portions were fine after 4-5 years, but the dry rot just moved to an adjacent area, even though I had treated the entire sill with the liquid epoxy.Given the time it took, and the expense of the Abatron, I concluded you're better off just replacing the whole sill. But I have used it with great success with other stuff -- porch columns, windows, etc.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
A painter friend of mine reports the same for epoxy on sills. He told me that it is good for about 5 years max for that application. I think it is the combination of sun and water that does it in. Anyway good luck to the original poster.Troy
I have also used it on some sills and they are still looking pretty good. The first house was some inlaws that we see for dinner, etc. regularly and the repairs are still holding just fine. I will keep my eye on that job for future reference though. One question: Did you apply the woodepoxy while the liquid was still tacky? Abatron told me to be sure to apply in that manner so that the woodepoxy could adhere to the liquid repair. Just curious.
I think I did, but I can't remember for certain. About 3-4 years ago I switched over to another epoxy product sold by my local paint store -- called PC Reddy. As you know, the shelf life for Abatron is only about a year, but the Reddy stuff will last indefinitely. I know people who swear by the West Systems epoxy products. Have you tried any of them?http://www.westsystem.com/********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have used Westsystems for adhesive work in my shop but not for renovation/restoration work. I had a gallon bottle, almost 3/4 full, of part A go cloudy and thicken up while it was sitting in my cabinet. I thought it was bad and tossed it. Later on I learned that was normal and that if I nuked the resin it would be restored and be usable again. That was a lot of money to throw away needlessly.
I have used my leftover Abatron well beyond the year shelf-life and it seems to act normally for me. I thought that epoxy had an unlimited shelf life in the unmixed state. Guess that I better check the literature on that one.
Maybe Abatron has changed the formula since I last used it. After a year, I had trouble getting it to dry hard, even if I applied a little heat to it with a ahair dryer.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Abatron has an 800 number for customer support and I have found them to be very helpful. There could be many causes for your problem, most of which are not exclusive to the Abatron line of products but affect most epoxy products. Were you careful when measuring the parts before mixing? To much hardener can actually inhibit the hardening reaction. Temperature applies not only to the air temp but also to the temp of the substrate you will apply the epoxy to and to the temp of the epoxy components also. These can sometimes be manipulated to retard or accelerate the hardening reaction. If any of this doesn't help then I would suggest that you call Abatron to see if they can help. Best of luck.
It's not me......... the stuff has a shelf life.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Definitely go with PVC, especially where you've got wood in contact with masonry.
TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
My house is early 1700's - I have one original window (protected by a porch) that didn't rot out in the early 1900's. The original frames were all 4 x 6, pegged - the frame also was a lintel to support the brickwork which is 3 courses deep.
I spent considerable time reviewing all the possibilities - from timberframe 4 x 6 beams duplicating the original to framing to ressemble the 4 x 6. I choose the framing route because it also gave me the opportunity to insulate the space between the window jamb and the brick opening.
I used the "never rot" composition board - wood dust fused with poly - because it will always be painted. I just made sure the joints were made tight and well sealed to ensure it looked like a solid beam. And it worked - even close up the the frame looks like a beam.
However I did make one change - the top board that on the sill box overlaps about a quarter inch with a drip groove underneath. The sill was also sloped about 10 degrees more than the original sill so water will roll off - the original was almost flat.
I do believe in trying to maintain historical integrity with an old house and windows can be a challenge. Unless you are Williamsburg or Sturbridge with a dedicated historical maintenance staff, you will have to make some compromises. If you don't like the never rot idea, then go with doug fir - I've made many board/batten exterior doors successfully with doug fir.
Good luck!
Marc: I was just in McBeath's (Berkeley store) buying some 8/4 white oak and they had some 16/4 or so beams on the rack just under what I was looking at. KDM
"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Marc5 out in Northern California where I live we use Redwood for this purpose. If you use all heart redwood it is very rot resistant. Another choice would be cedar. Just a thought if you are a glutton for punishment you could glue up 5/4x10 epe this would be rot proof and indestructiable.
Good luck.
Troy
Marc,
Are you sure you won't re-consider the Azek? We use it a lot here in Fla. It is an ideal choice for any rot prone application. They make it with a wood grained face that if done properly no one will ever know the difference. You wouldn't necessarily need to stack-laminate it. You could miter together top and face pieces to keep appearance and use fillers underneath. It is definitely a one and done job.
-Paul
Marc5
You can't get the size stock of white oak you need?
Heck! call a sawmill and tell them.
A board 3 inches by 9 inches by 8 feet would cost $12.80 in FAS at my sawmill. (or about $6.40 per Sill)
I can get you as much as you'd like! Or call Johnson logging in Cannon Falls Minnesota and speak to Dan or Seth.. (Connie is retired now)
Add a few bucks a board for shipping and you are still way below the numbers you've been quoted.
Many of the timbers in my house are old growth stuff, that's nice because it has such a tight grain to it and is soooooooo much more durable..
Just remember to use stainless steel fasteners rather than regular steel ones..
Frenchy: Did your comment on the stainless nails have to do with the moisture or is white oak one of those woods that has corrosive properties? I'm about to build my most ambitious project to date out of mostly white oak and don't want too many surprises.
Duke"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Nope .... stainless fasteners would be advisable (for white oak) only for an application where it would be exposed to the weather.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks
"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Duke one.
White oak has a high amount of tannic acid that is what gives white oak it's decay resistance..
Tannic acid attack's ferrious metals like nails. the result is the nail will rust, the resultant chemicals will slowly decay the wood around the nail.. Really dry oak won't be as affected as wood that absorbs moisture and get's above the threshold of around 7 %.
Since all wood is hydroscopic (SP?) and absorbs moisture if you are any place except the desert you will have trouble. Now stainless steel nails, screws, and the like are easily available to solve the problem or you can assemble using wood pegs or glue and not have any issues..
(or bronze, brass, or copper will also work)
So are you saying white oak requires stainless steel fasteners, even for interior applications -- where the piece will never see a drop of rain?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood,
That is exactly NOT! what I'm saying.. White oak like any wood will absorb moisture.. Those 100% humidity days means that air is fully saturated with as much moisture as it can carry.. Given long enough exposure to that level of moisture and White oak will attack any ferous metal..
Now some homes because they run A/C, furnace , a dehumidifier, etc.all year, are so dry inside that it's like a popcorn fart.. The white oak will still slowly attack the ferrous metal but we're talking a much longer time..
Iron (or steel) are affected while brass, bronze, copper, stainless steel etc. are not..
As is any nail that is plated and the plating isn't damaged in installation. Most nails are plated so thin that it comes off and then rust happens.
This doesn't make any sense to me. In theory you may be right but in my many years I have never seen fasteners that were eaten up by white oak (in interior applications).In fact my house is trimmed out in wo, and a few years back, we tore all the casings and trim off (to strip it). I saw zero problems with any of the fasteners, and the house is just ofer a 100 years old.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikki,
Mebbe frenchy's nails are rusting because he thinks 12/4 white oak is dry after only a year?
Ray Pine
Jionerswork,
I didn't say that!
I said they would be dry enough to use without major shrinkage..
PS My timberframe has white oak timbers that were sawn down in 1998.. They've thus far been thru 6 heating cycles and are no where near fully dry..
frenchy,
"thru 6 heating cycles and are no where near fully dry.."
Aww, NOW ya tell us... ;-)) Even after a year of air drying, I'd be leery of cutting up 12/4 white oak, for fear it'd end check severely.
Personally, I'd laminate some southern yellow pine framing lumber up to the right thickness, with waterproof glue, then put it in place and be done. But your solution has the merit of matching what's there. Those three inch thick window sills are yellow pine in my house, 1850's era, and still sound. I do wonder how dry they were, when they were installed?
Regards,
Ray
joinerswork..
So don't let it end check! .. seal it up right after you cut it!!!.. slop on a few layers of spar varnish and it won't check.. There are darn few checks in any of my timbers and some are 12 by 12 or 18 x 8 Just super fine gaps have opened up and made all my precision look less than expert..
Hey Frenchy,
I owe you one......
I'm picking up some white oak boards at Johnson's mill the day after Thanksgiving. They're green, but I'll give them some time before I make them into window sills.
Many thanks for the name and the info about drying!
Marc
ps Thanks to you all who responded to my questions regarding rotten window sills. The first "experiment" with sugar pine turned out alright. However, I'm going to experiment next spring with the Abatron epoxy system. When the white oak drys, I'll experiment with it. What the heck....life's one big learning experience.
Marc5
Glad it's working for you. say High to Connie and Dan for me will you?
Nikkiwood,
Where you live and it's level of humidity is a factor as is how dry the white oak was when installed.. plus many other things. That discussion would use up all of my time for the next decade..
There are plenty of books on the subject..
Frenchy: I wasn't planning on using any metal fasteners but I'll keep that in mind for other projects. This will be a cabinet that will spend its life (as far as I know)indoors at an unknown moisture level, heated apartment in S.F. Bay Area. Duke"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Thanks all for more great ideas--
Frenchy--I have a call into Johnson logging. Now that's a good price for white oak. I wonder if it's kiln dried, which is what I need. I think I must be in a wood wasteland here. Tough to find anything here in the size I need except sugar pine.
ETG and Uncle Pablo--perhaps I should reconsider gluing up synthetic stuff. ETG--what did you use? Uncle Pablo--if I need 2 3/4" thick, would laying up 2 1" nominal boards and a 3/4" board be feasible? Sanding the edge, then painting, will seams really be invisible? Do you glue and clamp just like wood?
Stay tuned, and thanks....
Marc
One resource for finding wood is http://www.woodfinder.com. You can put in your zip code and the species of wood you are looking for and it will return a large number of sellers. White oak is abundant and 12/4 is available, just not everywhere.
I don't understand some of the prices you mentioned. Your sills use about 10 board feet each and 12/4 Honduran mahogany ought not to be more than around $8 per bd. ft. (and I sure that is a price that can be beat.) I don't see how anyone could be selling mahogany at $20 per board foot unless it has lots of figure.
White oak, even FAS and surfaced should be closer to $4 per board foot and you could certainly find it for less.
Marc5
No that is not kiln dried wood. it's fresh and rough and green as all get out..
now before you poo-poo it, realise something.. Your house was built with green wood..
Oh, I know that they said it was kiln dried wood and show you stickers stamped on the wood to prove it..
What you need to understand is that wood fresh from the forest may only have a 22or 25% moisture content.. Sitting around in the sawyard it dries out a bit more..
When they saw it, the heat from cutting dries it even more.
Carefully read the stamp on that wood.
It says either KD 19 or SD 19
that means it had 19% moisture (tolerance plus or minus 2%) They often load up the railcar with wood and simply roll it thru the Kiln in order to legally stamp the KD19 (about the only time I regularly see framing wood spend any real time in an operating kiln is early spring when the sap is flowing.
If you aren't building furnature Kiln drying is overkill.
Now let's talk briefly about drying..
First your window sills didn't rot overnight.. so slow down and start to realise that you have some time.. Slap a coat of paint over them,,if you have actual holes etc. go to the auto body store and buy some bondo and apply it filling the holes, then slap the coat of paint on it.. That should buy you a year or so which is all you really need..
About a year later when the paint starts to peel and the bondo starts to fall out the wood you brought indoors will have dried enough so that no further serious shrinking will occur Now you can make nice white oak sills (or have them made) and put them in place..
Do you want details on how to dry the wood properly?
OK Frenchy, I'll bite.....you've got me thinking. I could pick up the wood in MN while I'm up there for the holidays. I talked to Dan this AM, and price for green rough white oak works out to about $9/sill! That's a lot better than $100 for sugar pine or $200 for mahogany. At that price I could buy twice as much as I need and cherry pick the good stuff, sell the rest here. I could go to Auto Zone today and get to work with the bondo, because some of the sills are pretty bad....yep, neglect is a bad thing. We bought the old family place from a relative 3 years ago.
So yes, please......I would like a short course in drying wood. But is this going to take 1 or 3 years? Do I need a special building, or can an unheated barn, or a stove-heated shop work? And if I want to end up with 2 3/4" x 11" nicely finished, what do I need to buy?
Thanks for all details, and thanks again to you all for your ideas. I will need your continuing advice for my old house (1830).
Marc
Have you thought of cement sills? Stool sits right on it.
Marc5
Well, I'm gonna pizz off some experts here because it will sound like I'm giving advice contary to what they have learned.. remember, you aren't building a piano, simply a window sill.
Please keep that in mind.. If you were building a piano all of the "experts" are correct it will take well over three years to air dry the wood to furnature quality..
Now what's really important,,...????!!!!!!
First seal the ends of the planks.. If you want cheap go to someplace that sells paint and ask for their mismixed stuff.. My timbers for my house wound up a god awfull pink and a not too bad creame color.. Now days I use stuff especially made to seal up the ends but paint works ok, just slop a lot on let it dry and slop some more on. when you get home.. (If you slop some on the sides or face it doesn't matter, you'll plane it off anyway)..
Well, you don't want it to shrink excessively because as wood dries out it shrinks..
So let's bring the wood indoors and air dry it over the winter..To do so you'll want a flat spot where warm air flows freely. You'll want to keep it flat and there is only one real way to do it.. You'll need stickers.. long pieces of narrow wood about an inch thick.. It's best if they are dry.. for a board about 8 feet long you'll need at least 4 and six per layer would be better.
lay six of them equally spaced. (close is good enough) on top of three of those cheap ratcheting straps used to tie down stuff. You know the kind, they have nylon straps about an inch wide and a cheap ratcheting mechanism. Six to ten bucks should get you a set (unless you already have some) Lay the stickers (that's what they call those strips of wood) in about the middle of the strap. one on each end and one in the middle..
Now lay a board on top and set another set of stickers directly over the first set of stickers.. and another board and another set of stickers etc.. a set of stickers should be on top and you hook the ends together and tighten the straps as tight as you CAN GET THEM! Wait a couple of weeks and chances are you'll be able to get anothert click on them.. then check about every month. Late in spring several months will go by and you won't be able to tighten the straps anymore..
You'll pretty close at this point..
The basement will take over twice as long as inside the house will and outside even in a heated shop (unless it's kept heated 24/7) we''re not going to be ready for at least a year or more..
I'd get three by 12 timbers. I'd plane them to about 2 7/8ths X 11 1/4 before I stored them, no sense in drying what you don't need dried.
Now late in the summer you'll be at around 15% moisture and it's ok to plane stuff to the final size.. Late in the fall you can go ahead and install them. Put them in tight because they will shrink a little more over the next few years. maybe a 1/16th probably no more than an 1/8th at worst.
If those were original sills, then they were probably about 12% moisture content, which is what you get with properly air dried wood North of the Mason Dixon line. That's what the oak would reach in about three years of covered, but outside drying. It would be a good plan to have wood at approximately that level. There ought to be some happy medium between $9 per sill--in two or three years, and true kiln dried oak at $40 per sill. And no need at all to be ripped off with $10 per board foot pine or $20 per board foot mahogany.
Edited 9/22/2006 10:08 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Various people have given you some good suggestions about alternatives to sugar pine. It's really soft and might not weather very well, even if it is painted. The University of Massachusetts at Amherst agriculture school used sugar pine to fence their horse pasture a few years ago. Apparently it's a very tasty wood because the horses ate the top rails , and the school had to replace all the fences.
Sugar Pine, or any pine except Eastern White Pine heartwood will be short-lived. The various Southern Yellow Pines are mostly sapwood these days and also aren't the best choice. When they are pressure treated, however, they'll last as long as anything if you paint the cut ends with copper napthenate and keep them painted.
White Oak, while original, moves a lot seasonally and you'll need stock kilned to below 19% or it will shrink and let in water at the caulking. It'll take a full year per inch of thickness to airdry, which if you can get it locally and have time to dry it, will probably be the most economical choice. No need to fuss with SS fasteners and risk crevice corrosion - hot-dipped galvanized will be fine in your climate, and more reliable than driving soft SS in hard oak.
Sassafras would also be an excellent local choice if you can find it in your dimensions, which will be the same problem with the various eastern cedars.
Doug Fir heartwood...even the plantation-grown, 4-rings/inch flavor...is quite rot resistant if you are willing to have it cut to your dimensions, kilned to 19% and shipped in. While it dries relatively quickly, it will shrink too much in the dimensions you need to use green, unless you are willing to recaulk in the third year.
Western Red Cedar would be an excellent choice and is sufficiently stable to use green. California Redwood is more expensive, but can also be used green. Both dry quickly, and softness isn't an issue in your application.
Regardless of species, be sure to cut away all the sapwood. If you are forced to use a rot-prone species, soaking in copper napthenate (takes a long time to dry before it will accept paint) or priming with red lead from Sandusky or Kirby will provide better longevity than paint alone.
I mill a lot of DF and WRC and although I'm not selling right now, I can advise on local sawyers willing to ship. Be sure to price locally-available tropicals like Spanish Cedar or Khaya first, however. Ipe would be needless agony.
Personally, I'd laminate #2 WRC fencing in 4/4 to the thickness I needed. It's stable enough and glues well enough that between a good lam and good paint (or even epoxy fairing compound), nobody will ever see the seams.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Edited 9/20/2006 1:47 pm by BobSmalser
When you brought up rot resistance in doug fir it should be noted that out in the Bay area California there are a lot of old houses including mine that are made out of old growth doug fir and I can tell you from personal experiance that doug fir both rots and also that the termites love it. Anyway I would use either cyprus, or hall heart redwood. Out here white oak is very expensive.Troy
Warmer climate, sapwood....I can't explain why yours rots and ours doesn't, unless you're using the upland rather than the coastal flavor of Doug Fir.
I have exposed bridge decks made of 3"- thick Doug Fir that have been in place since 1940. And all the old salmon trollers built between Oregon and Alaska are at least framed with Doug Fir and some have been in use since the 1930's.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Termites can't swim:) I think it is also the application in in the bay area we don't have much in the way of cold climate and the houses are often wood frame with stucco over the framing and this traps the moisture which the termites love. I have seen them enter a stud and eat their way all the way to a roof joist. But if the wood is dry it does not rot.Troy
My old house was built in the 1860's. The original part has black walnut sills while a section that was built on around 1900 has redwood. I have replaced a couple with pressure treated pine. It has worked out fine.
wdrite,
Hmm and I thought I was the only one using black walnut for exterior trim!
Early builders used walnut extensively for outdoor projects. The heartwood is very resistant to rot and insect damage.
Don't rule out Azek just yet. Yes, you'll have to glue up some 5/4 boards, but the seams will disappear once you paint. Azek (or any PVC type trimboards) mill just like wood using ordinary woodworking tools. It also has the same density as pine. Good, solid stuff and it looks just like wood when painted. Will also never rot!
TF
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