I have a number of picture frames to cut, so I am going to set up a shooting board. I will probably use it for other miters and for small boxes, and so I am wondering which plane to use.
I have #5 and #6 Baileys, but the sides of the planes are not quite square to the bed. I have a #4 1/2 LN smoother, which is dead on square, but it has a York pitch frog- most shooting planes that I am aware of, at least, are block style planes with low bedding angles. I have some smaller block planes, but I am not sure they are up to the job.
So my question is: what plane is best? If I could get a Stanley #9 in good condition, I’d use it; but they are rare and often not in great shape. Any suggestions? The LN iron miter is a bit pricey, but, a good plane I think. Any thoughts about this or about anything from LV?
Thanks,
Glaucon
If you don’t think too good, then don’t think too much…
Replies
I use a sled with a repetitive stop on the table saw and a good fine crosscut blade. Miters are perfect. To get all four corners correct on a picture frame the opposing sides have to be exactly the same. Hand shooting can change the length, even if you can shoot a perfect 45°. I have a Lion miter trimmer but that still can compromise length on a picture frame. I like it for inlay bandings and some moldings, better than hand shooting. I can't always shake my Neanderthal yearnings, though. I was shooting the other day with my fairly new Stanley 60 1/2. My favorite low angle block plane and less than $50. I have a bunch of block planes including the pretty bronze ones to an old Irish one with a wedge. There is nothing to complain about with the 60 1/2, other than a little time on the blade. Adjustable mouth, nice lateral adjuster, very comfortable in my hand. This is a small plane so polishing them up, if you feel you need to, doesn't take long.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I don't know that cheek squareness would be a problem when you can use the blade adjuster to correct for the error. Just do some test pieces before going "Big Time" and you should be OK. I have used my #4 for shooting, partially because the pieces weren't terribly large and because using a #7 would have needed a much longer board. I would think that a wider plane and maybe a slight angle for the plane to ride on would keep the iron from dulling in a narrow area. I have seen this in a couple of WW books.
Any of your planes should work as long as you don't remove a lot of material in each pass.
Hi Glaucon
For picture frames I would support the use of a block plane, such as a #65 or #60 1/2. The only criteria, outside a sharp iron of course, is that the sides must be flat (i.e. not a coffin shaped, such as a #102). It is not necessary that the sole of the plane is square to the side - just use the lateral adjuster to square the iron.
The beauty of a shooting board is that you can make very fine adjustments by shimming the stock. This can make all the difference between a good fit and a perfect fit.
A plane with a low cutting angle is preferred for end grain, but you can really use anything, even a york #4 1/2.
Points on Shooting Board...
Regards from Perth
Derek
I use my LN bronze miter and it is excellent. If you have to sell your soul to get one, it is worth it.
G,
If you are considering a new, as well a a refurbished older plane, may I suggest the Lee Valley low angle smoother? This is a bevel up plane with a 12 degree bed and is sold with a 25 degree BU blade, giving a 37 degree cutting angle. The body has flat wing-sides but the configuration is of a normal smoother (front knob and rear tote).
I suggest it for a number of reasons:
1) The low angle BU blade means that it is really a scaled-up low-angle block plane and therefore suited for end and mitre grain.
2) The increased weight and registration areas of sides and sole over a normal block plane provide for easier shooting.
3) It can be a small (like a No 4) smoothing plane too - especially if you swap out the blade for the alternative 38 degree bevel blade (giving a 50 degree cutting angle).
I have used it very successfully to shoot the edges of blockboard, which can be a difficult edge to plane as it has combined long and end grain on any edge, no matter how cut. A blockboard edge is typically composed of solid wood core blocks, a thick veneer at right angle to the core grain then a thin face-veneer oriented the same way as the core grain.
The LV with the low angle blade shoots this stuff very cleanly indeed.
LV advertise the plane as "ideal for shooting mitres". I have to say that one side was just a hair (literally) off a perfect right angle to the sole but needed only a very small amount of lapping on a diamond plate to get perfect.
Lataxe
PS Then there is the Marcou S20A mitre plane. I confess to having bought one but only using it so far as a smoothing plane (a very good one indeed). It has a 20 degree bed and takes BU blades of differing grinds to allow various uses. It will be mostly shooting long straight grain edges of difficult timbers for me, in due course.
Glaucon,
I have a LV low angle block plane that I think would work. LV really does a great job- the machining is beautiful. I'm pretty sure both sides are machined 90 to the sole. It has a great lateral adjust system with those set screws that would not only allow you to set the blade but ensure that it stays put. I'm picturing you working relatively small end grain miter joints. I think this plane would excel at that.
Adam
I will jump on the band-wagon with Lataxe and Adam with a LV low angle smoother. End grain is it's forte as I see it. And don't read me wrong, I won't be trashing my low angle block anytime soon as the LV is about 10" long and the block can work in tighter areas.
But as Lataxe metioned, with a more up-right angled blade swap, you have the equivalent of a #3 smoother and a well balanced one at that. Not quite 2 for the price of one, but a feather in your cap for getting your money's worth. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Take a look at the Lion Miter Trimmer. It is perfect for this application...as that is exactly what it is designed for. It is an expensive tool, but trims miters perfectly and repeatably. If you do a lot of frames and small mitered pieces, it really helps. The miters are right on and glass smooth, even on end grain.
Joe,
I second the Lion mitre trimmer as the ideal tool if you have loads of picture frames to do. I got one some time ago as I do a lot of framing. The extension pieces, which support longer frame parts and allow the use of a length stop, are a great help in keeping the frame parts flat-when-cut and to equal length.
But if the picture frames are wide, or but one type of mitre to be formed, a plane with shooting board will be a better option, as the Lion trimmer has a capacity limit - ie won't mitre pieces wider than around 4 inches (exact limit depends on the thickness of the piece).
Another option is a TS with an accurate and micro-adjustable cross-cut table/fence. Mine is a European TS and won't take a dado. As a compromise, I bought an ordinary blade with 80 alternating flat-top/chamfered-corner teeth, for cutting channels via multiple passes. I was pleased to discover it will also cut super-smooth mitres, with the sliding table fence ensuring exact 45 degree cuts.
But I think Glaucon wants to go the plane route, which is probably most versatile, if more labour-intensive, in the end.
Lataxe
Thanks to all for their advice.A few points:1. I do have a Lion miter trimmer, and I like it and use it. I think, however shooting the miters has some advantages. As was pointed out, it is necessary for the angles to be 45 degrees, but opposing pieces must be of equal length. A shooting board excels at this- with a trimmer, it is still possible to be ever so slightly off. This is not much of an issue with simple frames, but some of my frames are made of several moldings that are routed and glued together to from more complex profiles. Trying to get all the pieces exactly the same length is a challenge. Also for small boxes, I see an advantage to shooting.2. I like the idea of the LN #9, but it would, I think, only be useful for shooting. I think perhaps a LV LA (bevel up) plane might be more versatile.3. So if it is a LV, what would be better... a smoother or a jack. The jack is longer, which may not be much of an advantage for miters, but might be useful for free hand shooting for panels, etc. Any thoughts about this? I think the jack is based on a Stanley 62...?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
G,
The small LV shooting plane takes different width blades (2 ins) from the rest of their BU herd. LV do only the 25 and the 38 degree pre-ground blades for that small shooter whereas the larger shooter, jack and jointer all take wider (2.25 ins) BU blades, which LV offer in three grind-angles (25, 38 and 50 giving 37, 50 and 62 cutting angles).
In short, the jack is a better choice that the small shooter, but only in terms of its better fit within the LV BU "system".
Perhaps the added weight and registration-area of the jack would help with mitre cuts....? Also, there is that extra 1/4 ins with the jack, which might just be critical with some larger mitres, especially if you use a sloping or ramped shooting board.
NB Don't get their wider-bladed BU shooter as the sides are not flat.
Lataxe
L,I was thinking of LA jack plane with the 2.25" A2 blade, ground at 25 degrees. My thinking was:1. Most shooting is done on endgrain, so a "block plane" like angle is appropriate.2. The plane is specifically machined with the sides perpendicular to the sole for shooting.3. If I needed to do some free hand shooting (jointing) for panels, the 15" length of the jack would be better than the 10" length of the smoother (4 1/2). If I needed a smoother, I could use my LN 4 1/2 in a pinch, even with a York pitch on the frog. I'd probably get another iron, ground to a lower angle (18-20 degrees) without a camber. The sides of the LN are machined dead on to 90 degrees of the sole.Your thoughts?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,I don't have a table saw, so rely heavily on a shooting board to "perfect" the ends of boards.
I have been using a LN low-angle jack for shooting. I've got two blades; one at 25 degrees and the other with a secondary bevel that started at 38 degrees and is now closer to 40. With these two blades, I've found the plane to be excellent at shooting end- and long-grain, and it has indeed been useful for jointing edges when I didn't need the length of my #7.Shooting hardwood endgrain with the 25 degree blade, even with an A2 blade, does require frequent honing. However, these blades are so thick that freehand honing is incredibly easy. And with the chipbreaker to remove, you can get the blade out and honed, and returned to the plane, very quickly.I believe that everything I said would apply to the LV low-angle jack as well, and it has some added features.
Cheers,
-Andy
Thanks Andy. What features of the LV LA jack differ from the LN?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
First of all, I don't have the LV jack so I am not the best source on its features, but I weighed the decision myself and went with LN despite it's lack of the features. The LV low-angle jack has a screw that makes the mouth setting repeatable, and it has a lateral adjuster (the depth adjuster also works as a lateral adjuster). I chose LN after all because my preference is for the simple and classic styling (not to mention the tote shape, which is comfortable to me); a big factor was that I was able to try the LN at the LN and Fine Tool Journal booths at a show, and have never been able to try out the LV planes at a show. I believe that both planes are guaranteed so you can always get one or the other and see whether you like it -- although I don't know if all retailers honor the guarantee?You should read Derek Cohen's discussions of the LV low-angle jack and shooting:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/sonOfStan/index.asp
and
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/whatPlane/whatPlan.aspCheers,
Andy
G,
Everything you say sounds sound logic for your needs and taking into account you already have a smoother (but no jack or jointer)? I have no jack or jointer either and have been thinking about an LV, as I do have LV blades that will fit (for Mr M's fine plane). However, having no wooden planes, a Primus English jack was on my mind too.
The again, I have been mightily impressed with an LN No 140 low-angle skew block - also a possible candidate for your mitering? Albeit it lacks length and is perhaps overall too small.
But I digress.
One possible issue is the A2 blade you mention, ground to 18 - 20 degrees. A2 is fairly hard and perhaps correspondingly more "brittle". I did read a comment about Blue Spruce A2 chisels, for instance, along the lines that Dave Jeske (the maker) had to up the angle from 25 degrees to 30 degrees, as the sharper angle was causing a bit of edge crumble in some chisels when they were put under load. I think the comment is by Chris Schwartz in an article about Blue Spruce at WK Fine Tools (from memory).
A plane blade will inevitably hit a knot or other tough bit at some stage, so how would 18 - 20 degrees on A2 fare I wonder? 25 degrees fares pretty well on LV A2 blades, I have to say.
Perhaps there is a metallurgist or a Philip out there who could comment?
Lataxe
Lataxe,Would you really want to grind any bevel-up plane blade at lower than 25 degrees? I think you'd be resharpening constantly at that angle. I haven't found any endgrain that challenged the low-angle jack at 25 degrees (effective angle 37 degrees). In fact, I've sometimes been amazed at how _thick_ of a full-length end-grain shaving is possible using the low-angle jack with a 25 degree blade.
-Andy
L,I have a #5 Bailey jack (~1888) and a #6 Bailey try (~1892). Both are in very good condition with flat soles, but neither has sides square to the sole, and both blades are cambered. Either (and particularly the #6) could be used if need be, but I would have to re-equip with squared blade(s), ground ~20 degrees. I would also have to compensate for the out of square sides with the lateral adjuster, which is fussy.My notion was to pretty much dedicate a LA jack, with square sides and a square (non-cambered) blade to shooting. I have a LN #7, but it seems too massive for shooting comfortably.I think your comment about grinding angles and chisels is well taken, but I am not sure how it would apply to hand planes, where the blade (iron) is supported in the frog and the cutting (paring) exposure is limited to a few thou of end grain. I too would be interested if anyone has some experience in this.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
My shooting board planes are the LN LA jack and LA jointer planes. Both work very well, but the extra heft of the jointer seems to work better than the lighter jack. The irons have the factory-ground 25° bevel geometry; I've noticed no edge degradation problems.
_____
Rather than fooling with a cranky lateral adjuster, you could also compensate for the out of square sides of your #5 and #6 by shimming your work piece(s). (Of course, if you're in search of a justification for a new toy, then I withdraw this suggestion....) ;-)
_____
It's been my experience that you can also shoot end grain with a standard angle bench plane, as long as the iron is very sharp and set for a very light cut, so your #7 could make a fine shooting plane, if you didn't want to have to buy another plane.
_____
Since it sounds like you will be shooting a LOT of mitres, may I suggest that you reconsider the LN mitre plane? Yes, it is a bit pricey, but I suggest this, since this is a tool that was designed to do exactly what you have in mind, as well as performing other shooting board duties..... Just a thought....
.
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This has been a very helpful thread. I am in the market for a shooting plane too. I have been saving for the LN mitre plane. I had concluded that this would be the best option for me. However, as I searched through the other options I had been surprised that this plane's iron is bedded at 20 degrees with a 25 degree bevel. This has been a main reason for me not purchasing it as of yet. I don't understand why 45 degrees was chosen when they have the technology to make it 37 with the 12 degree bedding. Does anyone have a reason for LN choosing this? Is it simply the historical significance? I feel like I'm missing something.
I am considering the low angle jacks now. It will fill two holes in my arsenal (though the second of which is only a bonus because I'm not actively in the market for a jack plane). Why may I be dissappointed in this option? Are the sidewalls significant enough? The intended use is for shooting. Does the shape of the mitre plane overshadow the perceived hassle of the 45 degree bedding?
Matt,
A couple of reasons for the 45 degrees:
1. With that much weight going for it, 45 degrees is fine in hardwood endgrain (I also use a #7 in the shooting board -- works great).
2. Not all shooting is endgrain -- you can do long-grain shooting as well.
3. The lower angle wears down faster. By going with the higher angle, you get to do more shooting before having to re-sharpen.
-Andy
I have thought about the LN iron miter plane, but I guess the Scotsman in me rebels against buying a plane for so single a purpose. I am not certain what else I would use it for, whereas I suspect a LA jack (LV or LN) would find other work in my shop. On the other hand, I would have to hone the plane iron without a camber, so perhaps not.Likely, I will buy the LA jack, and in a year start another thread here asking why I shouldn't buy the LN #9...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Look at it this way- you can shoot the ends of pieces that are squared at the end AND angled. If you think of all of the various angles, the number is infinite, so I think you're safe. It's not just one function.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
David,
"A plane blade will inevitably hit a knot or other tough bit at some stage, so how would 18 - 20 degrees on A2 fare I wonder? 25 degrees fares pretty well on LV A2 blades, I have to say."
I don't see anything to be gained by grinding angles less than 25 degrees in A2 or any other for plane blades- there is not the need to drive them into the wood as with chisels. As for knots: it is not the knot itself that can cause grief, but what it may contain: grit or stones do the damage and will not care much between A2 and the rest.For shooting miters one would hope that the timber has been selected so as to avoid a flaming knot right there...
As an aside ( sorry,of no use to Glaucons questions): I just shoot miters free hand i.e. I don't use a shooting board. That is if they need any adjustment at all, as I will have cut them via heavy radial arm saw.Very narrow ones like picture frame ones 1 inch or so may get a lick on the disc sander(prosecutable offence in some quarters).I just use my trusty *#51/2 , the workpiece being positioned in vice so that the miter is horizontal-because of oblique angle she cuts like a dream and not even a thought for break out-after all it is not as if there is a need to take off a lot.Also, because I use a metalwork vice, the work is that much higher, making it easier to do this sort of thing.I still do it like that if I have had to cut them by handsaw /portable jig saw as in very wide ones beyond radial arm capacity-such as bar tops.How is a bar top to fit onto a shooting board? I have digressed (again).
*Ofcourse, if I had one, I would use an S20A or an M12 since they are user planes and not "over the top" items (small joke).Philip Marcou
Philip,
I did make a vague suggestion to Glaucon concerning the utility of a Marcou M20 but one feels he has yet to get over his Scottishness. It is a sad thing to see a man hunkered over his moth-eaten purse counting mickles and muckles.
Of course, we Geordies are not only generous and free with our cash, especially to our deprived breatheren up and over the borders, but also know a bargain when we sees one. I cannot understand why there is not a long, long queue at you door, where Holtey quality can be had for a fraction of that Scotman's prices.
As to your mitering tales - you are even more a heretic than I realised and I am sharpening a large stake. Also, you have missed an opportunity to induce plane-buying via offers of a Special Marcou Shooting Board (normally $399).
Hang on - there is a queue!
Lataxe
Edited 2/8/2007 7:34 am ET by Lataxe
You could of course cut near, and then use a Lion mitre trimmer or less costly equivalent. Mine is very much pre-me so its very old and very accurate.
Get the Feb. 2007 Fine Woodworking magazine, No. 189. Something that everyone overlooked is the scraper plane. It will give you a smooth finish and it can be used like a plane. I too have made many frames and after using a fine tooth blade on the table saw, I have used the scraper plane to finish the edge. It allows excellent control when shooting and it gives a more than satisfactory end result. Just something to think about.
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