I have finally decided to start learning to hand cut dovetails and would appreciate some suggestions as to which type of saw to buy. I have already done some practice joints using a Stanley backsaw that came with my plastic mitre box years ago and with my flush cut pull saw. My last two attempts are going in the right direction but I really feel that I need to invest in a more functional saw for this. In my research I have come across several varieties including traditional handled back saws, gents saws and Japanese type saws. I am leaning towards an offset gents saw but a Pax backsaw looks pretty sharp as well and the prices dont seem outragous for most of my options. Anyones input here will be greatly appreciated.
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Replies
For dovetailing, by far, the best bang for the buck are the Zona saws.
I use a couple old English saws myself, but I sure like the looks of the Lie-Nielsen saws. Might check them out.
Having tried all of the above, I had the most success with Toshio Odate's dovetailing japanese-style saw, available from toolsforworkingwood.com, of from highlandhardware.com. It's designed for a diagonal rip, exactly what dovetailing is.
I just do better on the pull stroke, but different folks are different. You try them all, ideally, and see which stroke is more natural to you.
Charlie
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
I would definitely advise against an offset gent's saw (the one with the reversible blade?) mainly because the spring mechanism that holds the blade isn't stiff enough to prevent slight movement of the blade, a deadly sin for a dovetail saw. Also, the offset nature just throws the whole cutting alignment way off, and the barrel handle makes the saw hard to register perfectly vertical. Because of this last reason, I don't like to use any of the gent's saws for dovetailing.
The Japanese saws are better because the handles are usually elliptical in cross section, making them a little easier to register them vertically. The pull action makes it easier to start a cut, and the thin blade is handy for those half-pins that are close to the edge of the board. One thing I don't care for, though, is that when my saw starts to go off the line, it is difficult to correct back to my intended line of cut.
I prefer a western-style saw with a pistol grip. The grip make it very easy to register vertical, and the thickness of the blade gives it an "authority" when cutting and allows me to correct my direction if I find my cut starting to wander off my line. It's a little harder to start a cut than my dozuki, but with a little practice, there's hardly been any difference for me. The Lie-Nielsen and the Adria would be the top-of-the-line choices, and either one well worth their considerably high prices. The Pax would be a notch below those.
I have the Lie-Nielsen and am astounded by its quality. I would not hesitate to recommend it. I also use an inexpensive dozuki as a pinch hitter for very small dovetails or woods with delicate grain.
You might also want to take a look at the Adria saws made in Canada.
http://www.adriatools.com/handsaw/tool_care.html
I purchaed a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw 2 years ago, its a piece of art in itself and works superbly. I also have Lie Nielsen rip and cross cut tenon saws.
I agree- although I just have the LN dovetail saw. How do you like the tenon saws? How does the rip tenon differ from the dovetail in cutting?
(Also be careful, someone will accuse you of being a "collector", no matter how often you use your saws...)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
The rip tenon saw is larger and has greater offset, thus making the saw kerf larger.
It is bulkier to handle too.
I have found Japanese dovetail saws in general to be easier to control, and they typically give a thinner line.
Thanks for all the suggestions gang I will take it to heart while I sort this out. I was leaning towards the pistol grip saws and it sounds like that is the consensus here. Next I will probably upgrade my chisels to some Sorby's or Two Cherries to really fill up the tool chest.
My two cents:
Stay away from the gent's saw. You're a woodworker dammit, not a gent.
Go Eastern with a fine rip tooth dozuki. I use and like the one Lee Valley sells at a fair price. Tools for Working Wood has one that looks good too.
OR:
Go Western with a Lie-Nielsen, Adria, or Pax.
Which is better? Neither; top quality work is possible with both types. Remember dovetail sawing is a rip cut and you need rip teeth on your saw.
By the way, don't let anyone tell you there's only one good way to cut these joints. Personally, I saw the tails first and my "teachers", from their writings, have been Ian Kirby, James Krenov, Chris Becksvoort, and many others. Find your own nuances to add to the teachers' methods.
Happy joining, you'll get it just fine.
So far I have been cutting the tails first and have had good results on th last two attempt. THe main issue has been that the saws I do own are either to widely set or to flexable to cut straight. I saw a recent article in another magazine that inspired me to get off my tail and try it. My plan is to practice once to twice a week until I get it down enough to use on a project. I have been doin small pieces with only two to three tails per board. I can really see a lot of possibilities that will add some eye appeal to my projects. Another question about these saws would be as to the amount of maintenance thew will need. Will I need to do any jointing or setting on the teeth to get the saw up to snuff?
With the Japanese saws there is virtually no user maintainence required which is one reason I like them. I did have to very very slightly remove some sharpening burr from the sides of the teeth of the Lee Valley saw. I just ran a small DMT 600 grit diamond stone very lightly along the sides of the teeth - just a couple of light passes only.
The teeth on these saws are very hard so they stay sharp a very long time. Anyway, sharpening these is beyond the skill of almost everyone, myself included.
As for the Lie-Nielsen, I do not own one but have had the opportunity to do some cutting with a new sample. I felt it was right on out of the box.
I took a hand tool class from Rob Cosman in July in which we cut a whole bunch of dovetails.. :) I struggled for a couple of days with a Lee Valley dovetail saw. I could cut straight, but the line was ragged.
I ended up using Rob's personal saw, it ALWAYS cuts straight and clean. If you are off it was the user.
So I bought a LN from him, they are worth the money. Period.
I did try out a couple of other Japanese saws, one with a thicker blade which was a clean cut and straight. BUT they are MUCH slower than the LN saw, and the more strokes the more likely to make a mistake.
Alan
01,
Yes, good point. I did have to ever so slightly remove some burr from the sides of the Lee Valley saw's teeth with a small 600 DMT stone. Just a touch. Cuts are clean now.
Japanese saws with crosscut teeth, in various types, just cut too slow and wander when doing the rip cuts of dovetailing. So, I think we're agreeing here.
But for sure there's more than one good approach. I appreciate your comments.
WW
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