I am trying to make some mid-century modern furniture that I’d like to finish with a glass like finish.
From what I can gather a tinted laquer would be the product to use (as I need to color it bright orange). Do all surfaces need to be filled with some sort of pore filler?
Also another question for you finishing pros..
If your construction contains a number of cubby holes or compartments , do you finish before you assemble or are there other methods that I’m unaware of.
It seems like the likelyhood of some hairlines showing once assymbled is pretty high.
Thanks for any advice.
Kelley Hamby
Replies
Hi!
My name is Jay and I've been doing woodwork as time permits now for approx. 15 years and still have not learned all the tricks I would like, but as far as getting that glass look and super slick feel, I use a polyurethane called Lasts and Lasts. I have found it to be a little more expensive than most of the other brands, but in my opinion it really is the best. It settles out very evenly, and when applied correctly to vertical surfaces will not run. Now, getting to the glass finish I normally use 3 coats, sanding lightly between each coat. I let each coat dry for 24 hours before sanding and appying the next coat. I know that every woodworker has his own unique methods for different applications, but I've tried most everything imaginable and this is what I like the best. It takes time and patience, but the results I get are ALWAYS outstanding. That glassy super smooth finish is really impressive to all who see it. There have been times when I have used 4 coats, but 3 usually is all thats needed if you have sanded the wood correcty before beginning the finishing process. I hope this has been of some help to you.
Jay Rich
Thanks for the advice Jay. A couple of follow up questions though...
Do you use pore filler and what grade do you sand down to?
I doubt since it's a polyurethane that it can be tinted, but do you have any idea how I would introduce color into the process?
Thanks for your help
French polishing is a finishing process that will achieve the high gloss look you desire. FWW did a fine article on this a few issues ago.
I have seen other products that are high gloss out of the can, but it is my opinion that the resulting finishes tend to be a little 'sharp' where a french polish is warm, and of course, very high gloss.
as for the cubby hole question, I just finished a bathroom cabinet that had a number of small cubbies and I opted to finish as much as possible before assembly. The way I see it, a few lines here and there are better than a messy looking finish, which is definitely a possibility when you are working in very small spaces.
Kelley, It has been my experience that the poly gives a hard glassy shine but lacks the soft depth that you can achieve with a laquer or hand rubbed finish. A spar varnish falls somewhere inbetween when sprayed or brushed but if you rub it on it takes on a whole different deep, soft, glass like finish. That would be my recommendation if your looking for real beauty. It sounds to me like your looking for that warm glow if you are tinting it. Varnishes take tints well.
Expressions Fine Wood Working and Cabinetry..A division of Schefer Engineering, Santa Rosa, Ca.
Thanks for all the help, again.
What I really need to know is how to get that glass like finish, but with an opaque color.
Similar to a painted piece, or the shine of a piano, but with vibrant colors. The project I'm working on is a coffee table with an Italian Modernist look that needs to be bright orange. One needn't even know it was wood by looking at it.
If yall think that any varnish or lacquer will work when colored please advise.
Thanks
K. Hamby
Pianos and guitars and high gloss are achieved in factories with nitrocelusoe(sp) laquer. Dries fast to build coats and rubs out to perfection. Each new coats melts previous sanding marks for unmatched clarity. Polyurethenes are not "hot" solvent (melt previous coats). They frely on the near invisible sctaches for a mechanical bond. If previous coats have imperfections that are not sanded properly, it will telegraph thru the new coats. Laquer can be tinted and is routinely done.
Shellac that is mixed fresh is also a good choice. I don't have any experience tinting Shellac.
Don
As Forrest Girl pointed out, you haven't said what wood you plan to use. If the wood has open pores, you will need to fill them first to end up with a smooth, level finish. There's an article on paste wood fillers at - http://www.wwforum.com/faqs_articles/fillers.html
Do you want to see the wood at all? If not, use MDF or something similar to build most of your project - it's already flat and smooth and can be painted easily. An oil base enamel paint will achieve a high gloss. Or you can use paint followed by a compatible water-clear, non-yellowing clear coat and use polishing compounds and a buffer or Abralon to get the glass look (once the finish is cured).
If you want the wood to be apparent but not obvious, a lacquer colored with pigments is a good choice. Russ at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com can set you up with the pigments and lacquer if you provide him a color sample. After spraying the color coat(s), follow with a couple gloss clear coats and let it cure for as long as you can (up to a month if possible). After the lacquer has cured, you can use polishing compounds to bring the finish up to a high gloss - like glass.
To get the same sheen in tight spaces, it's easier to finish first, then assemble. The joints will not detract from the piece at all.Paul
F'burg, VA
Thank you Paul for reiterating and expanding on the point I was trying to make. I've yet to try making a glass-smooth finish, but everything I've read indicates that if there are large pores in the wood, and they're not filled, that uneveness with reflect up through how ever many coats of finish you apply, thereby preventing glass-like smoothness.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forrest Girl - I thought your advice was too important to overlook. Some finishers like to fill the pores with their topcoats by spraying two coats, sanding back, spraying two more, sanding back, etc., until the pores are filled and the surface is level. The sanding back keeps the film from getting too thick while filling the pores at the same time. The problem with this technique is that almost all coatings will continue to shrink for months and the pores will eventually cause dimples in the finish. Paste wood filler avoids this problem - it shrinks overnight and the second application fills the small indentations from the first coat.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Kelley: As has been pointed out, worth considering the material(s) to be used for project. MDF is VERY smooth surfaces and easy to finish, but edges are a bear to seal and build. Maple is an excellent wood because pores so small, but it is somewhat expenses. Poplar might be a good middle ground.
Elmer's wood filler I have found very good for small cracks and defects. Don't sand back to the edges however as it will telegraph through the finish; leave a ghost of filler out 1/8 to 1/4" beyond the edges. Two part epoxy very good for larger defects, if you allow adequate curing time. I have stopped using the Minwax two part filler (somewhat like Bondo) because it never seems to cure completely.
A good finishing book like "Great Wood Finishes" by Jeff Jewitt might be very helpful. At his web site you can get any of the finishing materials you are likely to need, and he can make custom tinted finishes. If at all possible, consider first experimenting with all of the steps needed to achieve the desired finish on samples of possible wood materials (MDF, poplar, maple, ...) before starting construction.
Good luck!
Jeff's site is http://www.homesteadfinishing.com I just bought his book, and really like it, although it's pretty advanced for my immediate project (I need a book entitled How to Finish Wood Using Products Found at Ace Hardware LOL!)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/6/2002 1:11:04 PM ET by forest_girl
Starting from the top coat and working backwards I'm thinking single-stage catalized enamel car paint because of the durability advantage over lacquer (coffee table) and the percieved color intensity desired. It can also be color-sanded and buffed-out once cured. It can also be top coated with automotive clear coat after colorsanding to get that wet look and depth. Under that several coats of auto primer sanded back with a firm block until the minor defects are gone and the surface is truely flat. Below that bondo as a filler is tough to beat. It dries hard, doesn't shrink and can be used over or under the primer. Depending on the design I'd build the table using mdf and a very, stable tight grained wood like maple. Have fun.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Here's my favorite. Like the others said, if you want the smooth like glass finish on open grain, you do need the pore filler. If you don't fill the pores, this finish will produce a high sheen interrupted by pores. I happen to prefer it this way. The usual caveats apply:
o Mineral spirits are very flammable, Naphtha is extremely flammable, follow all of the warnings on the container(s).
o Oil soaked rags need to be disposed of carefully due to the risk of spontaneous combustion - follow instructions on the container.
o Japan Drier contains some heavy metals, so (you guessed it) read the instructions on the container
Sand to 180 by machine, then sand to 200 by hand with the grain.
First coat (really to highlight the grain)
Mix pure Tung Oil mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits (and a little japan drier if you want faster drying). Brush it on, let it soak in for 15 minutes. Brush more on, wait 15 minutes, if you are patient enough, do this until no more soaks in. If not two or three times is usually enough. Then, wipe off all excess until the piece appears dry. Check back in a half hour. If any has seeped back up, wipe it off. If it's gooey, brush a little more on to soften it back up, and wipe again. You need to get all of the excess off.
After the first step is fully dry, (pressing your finger into it should not leave a print, usually a couple of days) rub it down with fine synthetic steel wool. If there are any noticeably large nubs, sand them just enough to level them with 220. Make sure the residue is powdery; if it's not, it's not dry enough yet.
Second coat:
Mix Tung oil, Varnish and Mineral spirits in equal amounts (and a little japan drier if you want faster drying). Brush on and wipe off the excess as above. Since the surface is sealed by the first coat, there probably won't be the need to repeat as it soaks in, but look for that anyway. It will get progressively harder to remove the excess.
Third coat: Same as second. You can use more varnish than tung oil if you want a little more build.
Fourth coat: Rub down with synthetic steel wool as before, but this is the money round, so make sure it's really smooth. The finish is thin, so be careful not to rub or sand through to the wood. Sand if necessary to remove nubs. You really want it to be smooth this time. Mix Varnish and Naphtha in equal amounts (no drier). Brush this on with the best brush you can afford. Work quickly and brush in thin, even strokes. It's so thin (watch out for runs and drips) that the finish flows out well, but the Naphtha dries so quickly, it doesn't have time to collect much dust.
I keep returning to this finish because it's pretty forgiving. On one hand it takes a long time to do, but it also lets me stretch the finishing process over a period of time if I'm busy with other things as is usually the case. I work in a dusty environment, so it works for me that in the first three coats the dust that collects gets wiped off; on the fourth coat it doesn't really get a chance to collect. I like McCloskey's Heirloom Varnish in gloss. It's an old style alkyd varnish, not a polyurethane. McCloskeys is slightly amber which combined with the tung oil produces a very warm finish (in my opinion). Sometimes I do a fifth coat, same as the fourth, but not usually. I've used this on many pieces I've made, but I don't think it would stand up to hard use, as it's a pretty thin film, but that's one of the things I like about it. It's just enough "lens" to show off the grain.
PS... I tried it one on teak and it just didn't work. I think it's too oily on its own to absorb the mixture.
I hope I didn't bore you with the warnings up front, but it is really important to heed the warnings. A fire will ruin your day!
hi, chuck. i am about to finish a bench-for my living room, not a work bench, -made of mahogany and cypress. your process looks realy interesting, and i am not averse to many steps in the finishing process. wondering what kind of wood you use this for
actually, the more steps, the more beautiful the result, i think.
i did a search and found something about pore fillers. does this process you describe address pore filling?
thanks
I've used the finish on many woods, but most of the pieces I've built are of mahogany. It fills the pores a little bit, but certainly not to the level necessary to achieve a lacquer like gloss. Also, I might be hesitant to use it on a bench (assuming people would be sitting on it) since the film is fairly thin.
so, what finish might you recommend for my mahogany bench? i welcome any suggestions. i have been using successive layers of shellac [flakes], followed by paste wax. but i am having trouble--as in, cannot find--them locally any more.
gel stain and waterlox have been suggested to me. any thoughts on that???
thaks
For durability, polyurethane is an option. I'm not crazy about how it looks (too plastic for me), but it is durable. I have used polyurethane in place of varnish in my recipe with reasonable results, assuming a glossy finish is what you're after. Semi-gloss can be tricky. Changing the proportions to have more poly and less thinnner will build a thicker finish. As a side note, avoid sharp edges on your bench; they don't hold finish as well as and eased or rounded edge. A rounded edge will be less prone to wear. PS, you can get shellac flakes from http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. High quality stuff and Jeff Jewitt is very good about sharing his knowledge. Avoid using pre-made shellac in cans unless you don't want your guests to leave after sitting on your bench!
yeas, i hate polyurethane, too. and i have learned that shellac flakes is the only way to go, the hard way. that is why i am interested in learning more about waterlox and gel stains. have you ever used either one of them? thanks
If someone hasn't already bored you with the varnish story, I will !
All varnish is a combination of oil, resin and solvent (thinner) Polyurethane uses urethane for the resin, others use phenolic resin, others combinations thereof. Many varnishes use linseed oil for the oil, or combinations of linseed oil and tung oil. Almost every finish is a variation of this. Natural oil finishes are this combination with just a small bit of resin, so they take many, many coats to build any degree of gloss. This limits their protection, but makes them very repairable. Some light sanding and a couple of fresh coats can fix a bare spot. Gel stains are stains with a gelling agent added to make them easier to apply with a rag. Gel varnish is varnish with a gelling agent to make them easier to spread with a rag.
Now then,,,,,, Waterlox is varnish which uses tung oil for the oil part. Tung oil is expensive and considered by some (including me) to be the best of the oils. By the way, products that call themselves "tung oil finish" do not necessarily use only tung oil in their formula, but may use tung oil combined with other oils. I believe Waterlox uses only tung oil. Although their formula is proprietary, since Waterlox has gone to the expense of using the most expensive oil, presumably they're also using high quality resin as well. That said, Waterlox is a form of varnish. The amount of tung oil they use makes the finish much more flexible than others which makes it more durable for outdoor use because it's better able to deal with swings in temperatures and expansion and contraction of the wood it's on. More brittle varnish would crack and peel. Because of this it's also softer, but soft is a relative term. The oil also make it take longer to dry and as such, it is better able to "flow out" and create a more level, gloss surface. Tung oil also "pops" the grain making figured wood show its figure more. (PS, I've yet to find a water based finish that does this as well as oil based, especially tung oil) I think this would be a plus on your mahogany bench (unless of course you want to subdue the grain). Straight Waterlox builds a pretty thick (a little too thick for me) finish fairly fast, but is definitely high quality stuff. One downside is that any finish left in the can reacts with the air that entered the can and begins to harden, resulting in a useless glob of goo. Some people add marbles to the can, or transfer the finish to a smaller can etc, anything that displaces the air will help prevent the leftover finish from spoiling. I'm too lazy for all that, so the finish gets ruined which can become costly since Waterlox isn't cheap. If you're OK with the finish looking a little thick, it might be a good choice for its durability. It also has a nice, warm look because of the tung oil. You might want to get some and experiment on a sample piece. Use a piece of wood big enough to give you a real idea of how it will look on a real project. In my opinion, a 3" X 3" scrap really isn't representative enough to make an informed decision. Also, good brushes are an investment you'll never regret unless you forget to clean them and discover how much money you just wasted by ruining an expensive brush!
Taunton's website happens to have an article about finish selection. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp
One parting thought. There's no perfect finish. My collection of dozens of cans of various concoctions is testament to this. Trying different finishes is half the fun.
thanks so much. i have never understood the concept of varnish, so it was great to learn about it. and now i understand waterlox. if straight waterlox puts on a thick coat quickly, do you suggest diluting the waterlox? if so, with what???
i have used tung oil in the past to finsih pine, and i was unimpressed. maybe the wood was unimpressive to begin with. this bench is an "object d'art" [scuse the expresssion] and i want it to be stunning. your suggestion to try some, and more than 3 x 3 is a good one.
i have been reading i "knots" about using a pore filler with mahogany. do you know anything about that??? thanks again.
Tung oil alone won't produce much of a finish unless the wood is first very smooth (220 grit and higher) and many coats and lots of rubbing.
You can thin the Waterlox a little bit with mineral spirits or turpentine. I'd say 10-15% at most. Remember, you need some thickness for protection. As for pore filler...... You can't get the glass like finish that you see on commercially produced furniture without first filling the pores. Pore filler is more or less thin wood filler. It comes in a few different shades. After you do your normal sanding, you smear on the filler with a squeegee like tool, let it dry a little,wipe off the excess with burlap and re-sand lightly. This leaves a perfectly uniform surface. It fills the grain in porous woods like mahogany and oak. More closely grained woods like maple don't need it to produce a mirror finish. If you put a finish on porous wood without using the pore filler, you'll see the uniform pattern of the pores in the finish which you won't see in the glasslike finish of commercially made furniture.
What follows is purely a matter of personal preference: I like being able to see the pores in the finish. Maybe it's just because I'm too lazy to take the step of filling the pores, but I like the more natural look. I also like seeing the figure in the grain, (the wilder the better), so I almost never use stain either. To me, these things say "I made this", but it's purely personal preference. I have great respect for those who can produce the mirror finish, but it's not for me.
Just to complicate things further...... You've mentioned that you've used shellac. One of the prettiest finishes I've ever seen was a sealer coat of tung oil and thinner (50/50) like coat one in my recipe - followed by a couple coats of shellac after letting the tung oil dry thouroughly. It might not be the best choice for a bench because of durability, but keep it in mind for a future project if you are good at brushing shellac (I'm not)
Suzyt,
My experience is that the waterlox does not build quickly. I apply with my bare hand and rub till slightly sticky...3 coats for protection, 6 to get me where I want to be. I should clarify, that was on Ash..
Hi Kelly, you didn't specify what kind of wood you're using. The use of paste filler is generally for open-pored woods such as oak, mahogany. If a paste filler isn't used, the finish will not be level enough to achieve that glassy look.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've been over at Badger Pond trying to find answers to some of my own finishing questions, and ran across an article by James Vincent Doody, Jr., that starts out thusly:
This is why the question "which wood." The rest of the article is about oil finishes, but here's the link in case anyone wants to check it out (requires Adobe Acrobat):
http://www.wwforum.com/faqs_articles/oil_finishes.pdf
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"If your construction contains a number of cubby holes or compartments , do you finish before you assemble or are there other methods that I'm unaware of"
Considering what you are attempting to accomplish, I think the only way to get the color uniform throughout would be to finish prior to assembly.
Expressions Fine Wood Working and Cabinetry..A division of Schefer Engineering Inc., Santa Rosa, Ca.
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