Greetings:
Say, I have finished a project (PA secreatry) and am now applying two coats of wax. I am using Briswax ( bees wax, parrafin, and toluene mixture). A problem I am experiencing is with my inability to remove swirl marks which are remnant of the wax as I apply it. After I let the wax dry a bit 15 minutes or so then wipe off but golly no matter how hard I rub out the finish I cannot remove those swirl patterns.
Any tips!!!
Replies
Hi Dubie,
I may very well be wrong here - and if I am I hope the more
knowledgeable knot-heads join in & let us both know.
I just used Briwax on bare wood for the first time recently.
(Actually I had used a sanding sealer prior to applying
the Briwax).
I learned that you only need a small amount of wax and
don't let it sit and set-up on the wood. Apply it & buff it
out at the same time. When you allow it to set up - it
becomes difficult to buff out to the finish that you're
looking for.
When I had posted a similar question a few weeks ago it
was suggested that I use mineral spirits or naphtha to
strip off the "old" wax, apply a stain, or varnish, or
"something" before applying wax.
I found / learned that Briwax doesn't provide a hard finish.
It scratches easily and should only be used as a final thin
coat on items that are not to be used or handled frequently.
I'm anxious to read what others have to say as I am by no
means well educated or experienced is this arena.
Bill-
http://www.franklinwoodwright.com
Edited 3/19/2008 2:59 pm ET by Woodrat1
I learned that you only need a small amount of wax and don't let it sit and set-up on the wood. Apply it & buff it out at the same time.
I agree!
I have to admit.. I AM NOT A FINISHER! That said.. I wax everything I make..Period..
I'm so crude I'll even apply wax with a grey 3M pad.. I ALWAYS work with the grain OR at least work at an angle across the grain.. Like in applying grout for tile?
As I see it.. WAX (fresh wax) will 'take' up the old wax and leave a new 'fresh' layer.
I do not worry much when applying wax.. Rub it on.. Let it sit about a minute or two and BUFF IT OUT with lams wool or whatever you use...
I then 'look' at the work with a bright hand held light over the surface.. If I see something I do not like.. Take out that grey 3M pad.. wash it in mineral spirits (really well) .. Shake out all liquids.. PAD dry it on whatever .. Add WAX and work on the spot in question... Then go over everything when I 'think' all is well!
Sort of like working with Shellac.. Hard to make a mistake that you cannot 'fix' if you do not give up!
Now.. My final thought.. How to soften that Carnauba wax?
Even Paraffin.. You know that stuff your Grannie used to seal that GREAT food you had for supper a year later!
I have seen some BEAUTIFUL hardwood floors that were only polished with Paraffin wax. 100 years plus old and perfect.. OK, so except for the dings etc. from foot traffic!
Look under the area rug and the wood looks it was just installed but a bit more class.. Ok, except for the difference in wood color beneath the rug!
Dubie,
What is the finish under the wax? Toluene can attack some finishes, especially if they aren't fully cured.
You are also letting the wax sit for too long. Which may be contributing to the problem. A second coat of wax is usually a waste of time, if the wax is properly applied and buffed you will end up with the same amount of wax on the piece no matter if you put on one coat or thirty.
Rob
hey Rob:
I used a minwax polyurethane wipe on, about 7 coats. It was left for 7 days then I applied Briwax. Gee whizz I sure wish I new about Briwax from you guys before using it. It is touted as a great wax to use.
Now I have all these swirls and rub makers on the piece.
Can I use mineral spirits to try to remove the wax and start over with another type/
Dubie,
I would definitely remove the wax with mineral spirits. I would use one rag to apply the M.S. and another to wipe it off, working in small sections and switching rags often to make sure that you aren't just smearing it around. You may even want to do this twice to insure that you have all of the wax off.
After that, I would let the piece sit for a day or two and see what it looks like. If it still has swirl marks you may be able to fix this if you apply another coat of wipe-on varnish. It is worth a try since at this point you have nothing to lose. If that doesn't solve the problem you will probably have to strip the finish. Either way don't apply any wax until the finish has had at least a month to cure.
Just a personal opinion but I wouldn't use poly on something like this. You can get a better finish with a varnish made with different resins, or shellac. Poly is great for floors, furniture doesn't need it.
Rob
Thank you Rob. I will use a custom made wipe on varnish next time. I am so dissappoitned as I spent 1 1/2 years making this desk !
I am very concerned about applying MS to this. Will eat away at the wipe on ploy too and make thing worse?
I would try just buffing the wax out with some dry 0000 steel wool then rebufing with a soft cloth before resorting to stripping the wax. I always try the least damaging fixes first and work my way up to final destruction.
RichThe Professional Termite
Dubie,
Mineral spirits is a thinner for varnish, not a solvent. MS will not effect a varnish finish that is cured. What it will do to the poly that has been subjected to toluene before it has had a chance to fully cure, I don't know. Perhaps you can test this on an inconspicuous area, if there is one that has both the poly and the wax on it.
The post under yours that suggests trying a less aggressive method is worth considering. Although stripping wax is not very aggressive itself.
Rob
Rob,
At this point I did not use MS to try to remove the wax. I simply applied a coat of regular wax (Johnsons) and buffed a sebst i could. It is Ok now not great however.
>> At this point I did not use MS to try to remove the wax.Why not? I suspect a good portion of your problem is that the Briwax was applied too heavily. Mineral spirits are the way that any wax is removed and MS does not damage the surface of any finish.Wipe on the mineral spirits and wipe it dry with soft paper towels or cloths. You now have a new palette to put on coat of wax correctly. Let me suggest that the way to apply the wax is to wipe it one in a 2 foot square area, then immediately wipe it once or twice with a clean towel. Then move to the next area and do the same thing.The wiping will evenly spread the wax and remove the excess. Once it dries after than it's easy to buff.Howie.........
>> What is the finish under the wax? Toluene can attack some finishes, especially if they aren't fully cured.You are correct. BriWax Original contain Toluene as its solvent. Toluene can damage newly finished oil based surfaces. BriWax Original should not be use on finishes less than 6 months old or damage can result. BriWax Original is intended for restoration of old finishes. The aggressive toluene is a good cleaner for old finishes. BriWax makes a non-toluene wax called "BriWax 2000". This is a standard paste wax using mineral spirits as its thinner.Like any wax, it should be applied very thinly. It's best to then wipe it quickly with a clean cloth to spread it evenly and get up any excess. Then let it dry until a haze appears. Then buff it. One coat is enough. You can't "build" wax. The solvents in wax dissolve the prior coat of wax. Too much wax and you will find it smears rather than shines.Howie.........
well, I sure hope I did not ruin my PA secretary desk. I spent 1 1/2 years working on this desk!!!! The ployurethane (wipe on) cured for only 7 days !
Why does Briwax NOT mention that fact on their product label?
The toluene in the Briwax can screw with a finish, especially if it's not rock solid cured. I know because I've made this mistake.
Let me add my name to the list of those "bit by toluene". It does screw up the finish underneath. But my second attempt turned out OK.
I put a dab of wax (about Lima bean size) inside a patch of old Tee shirt, folded it over and applied wax sparingly. I only applied it to a section about the size of a dinner plate (you can see that food is on my mind) and then buffed-out that section before I went to an adjacent section. I found the toluene even softens water based poly.
I reclaimed the first piece by stripping the wax with mineral spirits, sanding the table top smooth with a 1,000 grit Abralon pad and adding a coat of finish. Next I waxed with Johnson's wax. This will be tough to do on your piece. Sorry.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I don't have time to read all the responses, so pardon if this is repeating someone -- original Briwax should not be used on new finishes! Their newer formulation (Bri2000 or something like that) is OK, but the toluene in the original is risky at best on new finishes. Works great on something 75 years old though! ;-)
"I am using Briswax..."
When I saw the title of this post I thought it might belong on "FineRabbinicalTechniques.com" instead of FineWoodWorking.com :)
ha ha not an intentional error to my Jewish woodworking brethren for sure. I did think it was Briswax originally :-)
Dubie:
All is not lost! Start with Mineral Spirits and as was suggested earlier work the wax with a soft cloth lightly dampened with Mineral Spirits and rub small areas until you have either removed the wax completely or blended the swirls. If you take the wax off completely grab a stong light and shine it across your piece so that you can determine if the Toluline has indeed damaged your finish. If it has get out your 220, 320 and maybe 400 grit sand paper and work your finish down till all areas are even and apply another coat of your poly finish. The fix really just requires time and elbow grease. In a year you'll look back and chuckle over all the hoohaa. Been there done that!
Now if you're interested in a nice easy to work wax finish. Mix 1/3 beeswax, 1/3 raw linseed oil and 1/3 turpintine. It's best to warm the mixture in a double boiler and very carefully stir it up till mixed nicely and let cool. The proportions of the 3 ingredients can be altered until you achieve the workability you like best. Reducing the linseed oil will make the wax harder and increasing the turps will make it softer while being worked but will cause it to harden faster as the solvent evaporates. Play with it and find what works best for you. I've used this wax for over 20 years and it is a wonderful final finish for most work. Our customers often come in a year or two after a piece is purchased and ask where they can find that wonderful wax we use!
Madison
OK. You have it warm and thin. When you apply it, do you wipe it off right away. How large an area do you work each application? Thanks.Gretchen
It really doens't need to be warm once it is mixed. If you do use it warm apply it to small areas. Rub it out to a nice haze then work another small area and then go beack to the first and buff it out. Old t shirts or the knit rags you can buy in the 10 lb box at a paint store work very well. Be sure to handle the used rags properly when you're done as they will contain a fair maount of turpintine and oil and we all should know by now the combination can be flamible if left wadded up!
The application like the recipe is flexible, the longer the wax remains on the surface the harder you will need to rub to get a nice even sheen without swirl marks but here in Colorado about this time of year working up a good sweat feels pretty good!
Have fun with it!
Madison
Hi Maddie,
I don't know if you are aware, but the duPont museum in Winterthur DE used this concoction on their antique furniture up til the '70's, when they realised the linseed oil component was building up and darkening the old surfaces. When they tried to clean the gunk (linseed oil never dries totally hard, but in addition to getting darker and darker, it attracts and traps dust and dirt), they discovered that polymerised linseed oil does not give up its grip willingly.
Now, I've put linseed oil finishes on a few pieces when that was what the customer specified, but always tell them what to expect when they continue to "feed" the finish with it. Perhaps a safer blend would be the wax and turps, but no oil.
Ray
Ray:
Looks like I've created another useful and interesting conversation here! One that I for one am learning from so don't let anybody tell you this chick can't learn anything. I'm going to do a bit of research and see what I can cook up this evening.
Thanks for your input friend! What wax do you prefer?
Madison
Maddie,
I use Minwax paste wax. I typically use the dark one, as most of my stuff is stained to a greater or lesser extent. I've had some complaints about the lighter wax showing up in pores of dark stained furniture, after a period of time.
If you are interested in an old wax recipe, Wallace Nutting in one of the Furniture Treasury books recommends shaving beeswax into a jar of turpentine. No heat necessary.
Ray
Ray:
I used dark Minwax on two cherry demilune tables I made last year and I agree on the darker wood it does look better.
Heck maybe I'll just skip making the stuff and use a comercial wax like minwax on everything from now on. You know you get stuck in your ways and till you open up to a group of folks you never really consider any other approaches!
Thanks for your help and ideas.
Madison
Using linseed oil as part of a oolish is a very bad idea. It darkens significantly over time and is a dirt magnet. It is the main reason antiques have acquired nearly black grungy finishes.
Yes color will darken if applied to a raw wood surface. We are applying the oil as a part of a wax finish after a film finish has been applied! The linseed oil softens the beeswax and the turpintine serves as a drying agent none of this penetrates the wood surface.
In twenty years I've experienced nothing but success with the formula and others I know such as Sam Maloof have used it longer than I.
If one of my pieces is around in a hundred years and needs refinishing because the surface has darkened well so be it. It won't however be because the wood was drenched with raw linseed oil and stored in a barn for 50 years like many of the gooey antiques you refer to. You are correct that if oil is the only finish and it is not cared for it will get messy and black. You are also correct that linseed oil as a penetrating oil will indeed darken the wood and will continue to darken the wood for a long time.
Madison
I'm with you - I love linseed oil.
I don't know how you have tracked y our pieces over the past 20 years, but I have talked to museum conservators who are adamantly opposed to the use of linseed oil in polishes on the surface. Many used such polishes years and years ago but have come to understand the harm they were doing.
Linseed oil doesn't have to be in the wood to darken by any means. Turpentine or mneral spirits will soften the wax quite nicely, they aren't "drying agents" they are basically solvents and the wax "dries" when the solvenmt has evaporated. (The trace amounts of resins that would be residual from turpentine evaporation are likely to be insignificant.)
Here is what Donald C. Williams, Senior Furniture Conservator, Conservation Analytical Laboratory at the Smithsonian Institution has written about such polish:
Drying oils, such as linseed, tung, or walnut oil, are a different matter altogether. These materials solidify, or "dry" through a process of chemical reaction with the air called oxidation. The drying process polymerizes the oil, making it increasingly intractable with time and more difficult to remove with cleaners or solvents. This is fine if oil is employed as the finish, but not good if it is used as a polish. By itself, having a polish which is difficult to remove would be irritating but not insurmountable. Unforunately, this is not the whole story. As drying oils age, they tend to become yellow or brown. Also, drying oils are chromogenic (they become colored) in the presence of acids. In this instance the oil adopts the dark, muddy brown/black opaque appearance so prevalent in antique furniture. Traditionally, cleaning/polishing concoctions were comprised of linseed oil, turpentine, beeswax, and vinegar (acetic acid). This cleaning/polishing method, used widely even in the museum field until recently, was and is a disaster waiting to happen. The results of this approach are readily apparent to even the casual observer; a thick incrustation of chocolate colored goo which is neither hard enough to be durable nor soft enough to wipe off easily. Thus, due to the polymerization of the oil as it dries and the reaction of the oil with acetic acid, the furniture is left with an unsightly coating which is very difficult to remove without damaging the surface of the object
Url for full article on polishe .http://www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/info5.html
Steve:
I just sent Ray a note and I'll say the same to you, thank you! I've learned a bit here today. I'll spend some time on the link you provided and will also continue my research to see what else I can turn up.
Just goes to show you that even with 20 years at this everyday nobody can possibly know it all!
Thanks for your comments!
Madison
Museum conservators do not allow a piece to continue to patinate once it becomes part of their collection. That's fine. That has nothing to do with whether or not somebody chooses to use linseed oil on a piece made today. The original choice of finish is part of the historicity of any piece of furniture. To the extent that museums were using linseed oil on pieces that were not so finished originally then that represented a bit of a bastardization on their part I suppose. How museums choose to 'conserve' pieces in their collection has virtually nothing to do with your choice of finish. A museum is not a real world for furniture - it is not used, it is touched with gloved hands, it is frozen in time.
Edited 3/25/2008 1:40 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss:
Good points! Likely the only gloved hands most of my work will ever see will be those worn by the folks who move it from the back of my truck to the client's home. But there is a bit to be learned here so while I agree with you I also see the benefit of learning from the others who've posted here. Heck maybe I'll cook up some beeswax with some Crisco and bake a batch of besswax chocolate chip cookies that you can rub furniture with to get a nice satin non-darkening rubbed wax finish that you can litterally eat! :-)
Back to book work guys!
Madison
A finish says a lot about the maker at any given point in time in history - his or her access to materials, expertise in applying materials, philosophy, access to the technology and equipment necessary to apply a given finish.Your linseed oil finish and wax formulations are as valid today as at any point in time in history. That is your choice to make and it tells us a lot about you.And besides that, they look GREAT!
Edited 3/25/2008 2:00 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss:
Amen to that. But a girl's got to keep an open mind because even though we really do run the world we can't possibly know everything! So when Ray or you or somebody else speaks I listen, I don't always agree but I listen. Messing with finishes is something I love to do. Hubby gets a bit worried sometimes when I'm cooking stew and a finsh at the same time but so far he hasn't accumulated much gooey gunk so I guess I'm doing ok!
I think I'm going to do a bit of research tonight and then as I get time play with different oils to see what I can learn. Maybe if these guys are real nice I'll share my findings down the road a bit!
Here's an idea, how about everybody posts a wax or waxish final finish recipe here and let's see what comes of it! I mean I stole mine from somebody and have altered it over time so what do you say guys?
Madison
The problem with such polishes is with deterioration from subsequent "treatments" that are not part of the original makers intention for the finish. It's that original intent that makes all the difference to me. If I do a lot of work on a finish to enhance the beauty of the wood, I'm perfectly fine with the natural color changes that wood undergoes, as well as with the dings of daily living (though I do have coasters laying around). I'm not fine with something that has the potential to turn the surface black and grungy just as I'm not likely to recommend a polish containing silacone--not because that would damage the fnish itself (it won't) but because it would make refinishing or repairing damaged finishes more difficult.
Choosing a polish that will hasten the deterioration of the original finish doesn't make sense to me in the real world or in the museum world. But we should listen to the conservators to to strictly emulate them but because they are the only ones doing hard research about what was done and how finishing materials hold up over the long term. Certainly the finish manufacturers don't seem to have anything like an over twenty year time horizon for durability.
I would have assumed that the original applier of linseed oil most likely would have refreshed it from time to time, and in fact, most likely did.
The way I read it, it appears that most finishes on fine furnture that were originally just oil, or were oil followed by wax, were often refinished with a film finish by late in the 18th or early in the 19th, in America (somewhat earlier than that in Europe). The reason is that oil finish with gloss provided by ardous waxing is very difficult to maintain since it "is particularly liable to spot with wet, and look smeary when touched by fingers...." as stated in the 1827 edition of The Cabinet-Makers Guide or Rules and Instructions in the Art of Varnishing, Dying, Staining, Japanning, Polishing, Lackering and Beautifying.... which is reprinted in a Dover edition The First American Furniture Finishers Manual edited by Robert D. Mussey, Jr.
Those film finishes were very often spirit varnishes, with sandarac being one of the most popular (modified with some softer resins such as gum mastic and gum anime to give increased flexibility). Sandarac was favored because it was one of the lightest colored finishes available, much lighter than shellac of the period. As shellac become more refined early in the 19th. century it came to dominate the film finishes and the process of French polishing also came to the fore being rather significant finish in the Federal styles of the new Nation. Oil varnishes came to appear as well, with natural resins of amber and for inexpensive applications rosin.
I think we are in agreement that these refinishing jobs were at least an adulteration if not an abomination.I have never seen a mark (other than bad burns which would mar any finish) on an oiled piece that wouldn't completely disappear after being spot treated with the same oil used originally, or at least something close. And the repair blends inside a week.That said, I'm about to pad on some shellac this afternoon.I ain't thummin' my nose at nuttin'
Edited 3/26/2008 11:51 am ET by BossCrunk
I'll agree at least in part. However, many of the shellac or other spirit varnish finishes weren't to replace what we would call an oil finish, but to replace a finish which was oil under wax built and polished to a high gloss. Maintaining a high gloss finish with beeswax is a major PITA. (Ask any one whose military duties involved inspections of dress uniforms.) Of course every one of the households that originally owned high style furniture had servants who could be kept at such tasks for the parlor. But as the 19th century progressed the number of house servants diminished--due to the mills in the North, and quite suddenly in the South with the Civil War.
So you're saying that all the furniture was refinished because they didn't have maids to keep the wax finish buffed up? I'm a little dubious of a theory that would have a household systematically refinish its furniture because it could not find and keep staff employed on an ongoing basis.
It's a broad societal change accompanied by the increased availablility of an alternative not previously available. With fewer staff, high polished waxed furniture would become shabby and when that occurred some event, a family wedding or more likely a change of ownership as the piece passed from generation to generation would trigger a refinishing. When that happened the "superior" products were likely to be used. As Boss has noted sometimes that resulted in a change of appearance that went counter to the original makers intent, though it was also true that often the newly widespread finishing materials made little change in original appearance but a great change in the ease of maintenance.
It is quite clear that furniture often underwent a number of refinishings over its life. Another occasion of a lot of refinishing was the Centennial which saw a renewed interest in the furniture of earlier periods. (A lot of so called "period" pieces also date from that era as well.)
Edited 3/27/2008 2:38 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve,
Yet another factor was the housewife's penchant for "freshehing" the old finish by giving it another coat (of shellac, varnish, whatever was on hand) during the annual spring cleaning. I've read reference to this practice in old domestic manuals, and in articles on domestic practices of the 19th century.
Even as recently as my own childhood, the lady of the house had a tendency to want to give dull furniture a once over, with paint if not varnish, in her efforts to spruce things up.
Ray
They also wanted to update furniture with modern, or whatever followed the current fashiion, brasses, one reason why period brasses may be worth more than the furniture on which they are found.
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