I am at the point of seriously considering switching to waterbased poly and spraying lacquer. I believe the handwriting is on the wall about oil/lacquer/strippers/etc., the waterbased has improved in the last few years, cost, and most importantly-even with fans and a good mask, I am getting “buzzed” with lacquer.
All that said, any recommendations about brands/products will be greatly appreciated! I use an HVLP system.
Thanks to all in advance!
Peter
Replies
I still haven't switched, but the brands people talk about most favorably are Target and Fuhr.
Steve,
Thank you!
Pete
I have been spraying waterbased for several years using a 3 stage turbine, and have recently switched to Target products, especially the USL (Ultima Spray Laquer). This stuff lays down beautifully, and is very easy to work with.
Craig,
Thanks!
Where do you buy Target products?
Pete
I've been using nothing but Target Coatings products for years and am very happy with their products.
Andy,
Tganks!
Pete
>> the waterbased has improved in the last few years
Playing devil's advocate, in what way have they improved? What independent test results lead to that conclusion? Their formulation is still basically the same as it was when they were first developed.
Waterborne acrylics do not have the water or watervapor protective qualities of oil based varnishs. Nor do they have the protective qualities. Waterbornes are harder and can work for floors but the oil based floor finishes still stand up better.
Now, I'm not knocking waterborne acrylics. They are fine finishs that fall in the range of regular lacquers are far as protective qualities. While they have less VOC's they still require proper respirators if long term spraying indoors.
"Playing devil's advocate, in what way have they improved? What independent test results lead to that conclusion? Their formulation is still basically the same as it was when they were first developed."I cannot answer the last two questions but I would like to comment on the first. Aren't the modern 2K WB finishes considered to be an improvement? Maybe that does not relate to Fine Woodworking but I am under the impression that the 2K finishes are a significant improvement in both water and vapor resistance.Is this not correct?[EDIT] I have also heard that the USL is an improvement with the burn-in and ease of spraying.
Edited 7/3/2006 12:55 pm ET by CJH
Howie,
As always I enjoy your insight.
My unscientific independent test results are these: Several years ago I used WB stain&topcoat in a production unfinished furniture store. Production with a capital P! 4 hours max from warehouse to on delivery truck. That WB never impressed me, period, and we switched to oil and nitro.
A while ago I watched another finisher use a more modern WB, and was impressed. I do believe the benefits will outweigh the faults, especially when oil/nitro/etc are outlawed.
Thanks again. Pete
You certainly could make the move. Lemme see if I can tap a couple of the points mentioned.
I've not used Target, but Fuhr, thats some decent stuff. I particularly like how theirs seems to come closer to that "oil base" look that most people are concerned about losing if they switch. Closer than other waterbornes, that is.
Are we farther along? Ho boy. Is our automotive technology better than when Mr Ford was making the model T? The whole chemistry behind waterborne coatings today makes 20 years ago look like the middle ages. There have been dozens and dozens of minor improvements, at least 4 major changes industry wide in the way that the coatings are formulated and produced. Many of the issues early versions had are gone.
For small projects you can brush it, pad it, which makes it acceptable to a wide span of home shop folks and hobbyists. You can get outstanding results with a high end cup gun or my preference, a pressure pot. I have not put it through an HVLP though I suspect you could do so acceptably. Airless rigs are out out out. Soup sandwich. Big mess.
You must be careful when spraying it, and you haven't gotten used to it, it does not act like solvent lacquer. Vertical surfaces give people learning the most fits. But you can clean it up easily, you can wipe a drip with a rag dampened with alcohol and recoat. The dry times are comparable now to solvent based lacquers.
If you are used to a non catalyzed lacquer which melts each coat into the previous, waterbornes do not. So you must remove all sanding debris between coats or it will become stuck in the finish.
Temperature and humidity affect dry time, just like almost everything else. Oddly, some of the days that you'd be a fool to spray nitro lacquer, cool and humid, can give you a mirror finish with waterbornes.
If you want to play with the stuff, you can get a feel for it by grabbing a quart of Polycrylic almost anywhere. Thats no pitch for the product, it just happens to be one thats cheap, easy to find, and comes in small quantities.
Personally I use Kem Aqua which is a Sherwin product. But I don't know that I'd tell anyone doing one off furniture to start there. Its only sold in 5's, and a 5 of sealer and a 5 of top coat will set you back over $300. That particular product is just amazingly durable. I did some very un-official and "whatever comes to mind" tests when I first started playing with it. I had pieces of oak and cherry base that I sprayed, let cure, and my house keys would not scratch the finish. It did on softer woods like pine and poplar, because the wood underneath gave way.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
RW,
Thank you!
Pete
"If you are used to a non catalyzed lacquer which melts each coat into the previous, waterbornes do not."
Check out the Target EmTech 8000 Pre-cat conversion varnish. It does burn in to the prior coat, as long as it's less than 24 hours or so.
I've been using waterbornes for years because I started in my basement - no lacquer fumes! Several years ago I switched to Fuhr through Homestead Finishing and have never regretted it. Great support from Homestead and the finish is very easy to sand and cures very hard.
Stopped trying to find a useable water based glaze about 2 years ago. They all just flash over too darn fast. If I need to spray finish over a glaze I use McCloskey's oil glaze and then seal with Target's water borne shellac before topcoating with Fuhr. The Target water borne shellac lays down very well and looks great - just don't use it as a finish because it has absolutely zero water resistance, even after curing a couple weeks. It's a tie coat between BLO/oil glaze and water borne topcoat, not a finish in itself.
You might want to check out the Enduro products available below - many positive feedback from instructors and students:
http://www.compliantspraysystems.com
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Thank yopu!
I will check their website, because I also need a new spraygun.
Pete
I switched to WB about 3 years ago and couldn't be happier. My layout simply does not support a spray setup so I'm restricted to the good old brush. My experience after testing about 8 different brands follows:
General Polycrylic from Woodcraft is the best. Flows out, dries quickly and sands well. (Three coats in a day.)
99% free of brush marks when applied with a good synthetic brush from Jeff Jewett. I always pre-wet the brush to prevent premature drying at the bristle base. The brush is good-as-new today.
When finished with 5-6 coats, then sanded down (up?) to 4,000 grit with Abralon pads on a ROS you have a finish you can be proud of.
Jerry
Like many of the other posters have said, Jeff Jewett's company is the place to go: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. Describe the application and he will give you all kinds of advice. He sells both Fuhr and Target, plus guns and some great brushes.
Also, check out Jerry Work's detailed description of the various Target finishes and spray guns:
http://www.targetcoatings.com/home/manual.html
Thank you to all for the info and insight!
Pete
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