I have been wanting to start woodworking for years and I never had the time. Now I do and think it will be tons of fun for me and my son. The question I have is what type of saw should I buy (table or radial arm). I would appriciate any advice you guy might want to give me.
ps. What other tools should I buy first?
Thank you for your time
Trevor Riggs
Replies
What tools do you own now?
IMHO it would be the table saw first and the RA latter.
Drill press, jointer and a planer are probably a little more useful than RA at this time.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Holy cow, did you open up a can of worms by asking that question here! It’s a perennial debate.
I’ll start things off.
Table saws are good for sheet goods, like plywood, door panels, etc. You can make long cuts, such as ripping. You can make good crosscuts on short pieces, but it’s difficult if the boards are longer than a few feet and hang off the sides of the table.
Radial arm saws excel at cross cutting. Ripping is difficult. Some can’t rip at all. You can’t do sheet goods at all.
All of the above operations could be done with other tools as well, so whatever you can’t do with one tool you can do, sometimes better, with another. For example, cross cutting can be done with a chop saw; ripping on a bandsaw.
What would I buy first? Safety goggles and ear muffs. Then a good workbench. Nothing fancy, but you can’t do anything without a clear place to work.
The choice of tools depends greatly on what types of things you want to build. Knick-knacks would require different tools than for, say, bookshelves or woodturning. What types of projects would you like to work on?
I am not planning on doing any woodturning at this point, so most of my projects will be small (tables, bookcases, etc) until I have the skills to do more complex construction. I already have a good workbench and I am in the process of building a glue-up table.
I appriciate your input it helps greatly.
With tables, bookcases, and such you'll need to handle sheet goods and do ripping. My recommendation would be a table saw rather than a radial arm saw. It will come with a combination blade, but I'd recommend buying an anti-kickback ripping blade, and a better-quality plywood blade, too. I would also recommend getting a 10" tablesaw (that is, one with a 10" diameter blade) rather than the smaller 8". It will be a good basic tool that you'll use for many years.
Edited 8/27/2003 3:36:30 PM ET by WAYNEL5
"table or radial arm?"
Table saw!!
"What other tools should I buy first?"
That varies wildly depending on what kind of stuff you plan to make. Can you be more specific on what you guys are doing or plan to do?
And besides that....
WELCOME...
Now there is the band saw to consider.
As to which brands... ROAR!!!
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Welcome to woodworking Trevor! You're right, it can be a blast. As for your tablesaw vs. radial arm saw, go with the table saw. Its more versatile in my opinion. As for other tools, right or wrong, here's how I bought my first ones, and I've got no complaints, except I should have gotten a planer earlier.
If you're like me, each new project is usually provides an excuse for a new gadget. Have a good one,
Steve
Thanks for your insight I think you and the other guys are right I am going to buy a table saw. Thank you for your list that is the kind of information a rookie like me really needs.
Thanks
Well, I'll be somewhat transparent and say that a table saw is for fine woodworking, and a radial arm saw is for carpentry. A TS rips extremely well, as was already stated. If you need to cross-cut pieces, build a sled. If the pieces are fairly long, consider getting a sliding compoung miter saw and build a set of fixed tables on each side. It'll be more accurate than the RAS and cheaper.
Other tools? Band saw, router, drill press, planer, jointer, in that order. Note that a band saw is great for ripping as well as a TS, and it's not only lots safer but takes a smaller kerf.
John
Trevor
The Table Saw is designed to rip, it will cross-cut small pieces and larger with a sled. It can size medium size sheet panels. Capable of cutting dadoes and mitres an at an angle. Ripping is extremely important.
The Radial Arm Saw is a great cross-cutter an does mitres. An it................ well it................ ahh ............... it will.......
Good luck with your decision an welcome..... ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Trevor and Son,
The current issue of Fine Woodworking, #165, has an article about taking a board and making it flat, straight, and square. This is a basic operation that comes first when making anything but the crudest types of furniture. The article explains the purpose of jointers, planers, table saws, and band saws, they each have their use and they aren't interchangeable. Once you understand what the tools do, you will be better able to decide what to buy.
As a minimum, for a power tool shop, you will need a table saw, 10 inch blade models are the standard, and a jointer, typically a 6 inch wide model unless you have a hefty budget. If at all possible, get a benchtop planer at the same time. With these three power tools and a couple of dozen hand tools, you can tackle making any basic piece of furniture and some fairly complicated work as you gain experience. While they are extremely useful, a band saw is still secondary to a table saw, jointer, and planer.
Radial arm saws, which have their fans, are theoretically capable of doing anything a table saw can do and then some, but in reality, they are difficult to work with. Certain operations on a radial arm saw, especially ripping, are, to my mind, unacceptably dangerous.
John W.
Edited 8/28/2003 9:36:36 AM ET by JohnW
I ended up with a radial saw (hand me down from dad) first and found myself time and again wishing I had a table saw instead. As mentioned in some of the other replies, the RS is great for crosscutting, especially longer pieces of wood, but I can't do much else with it. With the table saw I can miter, bevel, rip, dado, etc.
I'd highly recommend a drill press and a router as tools next in line.
Because you asked such a question in my opinion the first tool you should buy is a book, magazine subscription and classes. Definitely a tablesaw over a RAS. Figure out what kind of projects you plan to build and buy your tools according to your project needs. Do not be afraid to upgrade your tool needs as you increase your skills. I see a lot of people saying they want to buy the best tool once for their lifetime. A good tool can always be sold or traded to upgrade or even down grade. I've owned many saws jointers, planers and have bought, sold, traded depending on available space, project needs etc. My first jointer was a 4" Toolcraft and my last was a 16" Oliver. Presently don't own a jointer but have access to a 12" and 20".
I ran into a guy at the Home Depot return line (har har) a couple of weeks ago. He heard the guy in front of me and I talking about tools and WW. He offered me a 5 or 6 year old Sears 10" radial arm saw with extras for $150. Said he only used it about 20 times and wants some garage space back. The guy I was talking to was going to go look at it the next morning. His first big WW tool. I kept my mouth shut, I didn't know either of them. Who do I help, the guy trying to make the sale or the guy buying?
I turned it down, small shop and saving that space for a band saw. Yeah, I vote table saw too, but only after a group of hand power and manual tools.
A coworker decided to get into WW years ago. First big tool was a radial arm saw. Built mostly picture frames and small tables. Its a basement anchor now, he switched to photography.
Enjoy, Roy
My first stationary tool was a radial arm saw (not by choice, hand me down). I completed many very nice projects on it but I have to agree that ripping on it is quite possibly the most dangerous task I have ever done in my shop. I had a craftsman and it would kick back so hard, I swear I thought I broke my hands several times. Even worse, I worked at a lumber yard when I was in my upper teens and went to rip a board for a customer. Please remember when I say this that I already had plenty of experience with a RAS, but I rotated the saw the wrong direction and fed the board in the direction of rotation. That giant Dewalt (16") grabbed the board out of my hand, split in two, and launched the two halves approximately 100' across the yard. Needless to say, if someone would have been standing there, they would not have survived. 18 years later and my RAS is rarely used now and only for 90 degree crosscuts (dont like to rotate, seems to screw up accuracy) on long boards. Buy a table saw.
Brian
Trevor, I would buy a tablesaw. Either a contractors saw or a cabinet saw. As one poster mentioned radial arm saws are dangerous. They are prone to kickbacks and do one thing well, crosscut lumber to length. Stay away from bench top saws, they are for jobsite installations only. Craftsmen woodworking power tools have a bad rap but the older saws were made well. I don't know how much you want to spend but the very first dollars should go towards a good book on using a tablesaw.
I would consider Jet or Delta in contractors saws or the Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw. You would need 220 volts for the Grizzly or they make a 110 volt 2hp for the same price.The 220 volt machine is 3 hp, the contractor saws are 110 volt with 1 1/2 hp motors.
Good luck with whatever saw you purchase
Mike
I love wood working and hope you will also
Just something to think about If you have no experience with power tools find some one to show you how to use the tool .
Its not much fun with out your fingers
Be safe
Oh yea-you don't need a radial arm
Table Saw
Sander
Router
Clamps-the list goes on and on that's another thing I like about wood working you always need another new tool.
Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins
You guys have be been great and thanks for your help. I did buy the books. I am not a complete rookie around power tools, but my son is and I want to teach him the safe way to use them. I think I am going to the Delta store to buy myself a few Goodies. Ill Let you all know how I am doing with them. One of my first projects is to build myself a router table and fence.
I hope every one has a great Labor Day
Be safe and Be well!
Trevor
Trevor,
I agree with Rick: the first thing you should get is educated. Before you do anything, before you spend thousands of dollars on tools, you should figure out what kinds of things you are planning make, learn how to make them, and only then acquire the necessary tools. You also need to learn about yourself, whether you enjoy using power tools, or--like me--find much greater pleasure using only hand tools. Local wood working clubs, magazines, boards such as this and local junior college classes are some of the places that can help you.
A while back there was a beginner who was about to fill up his garage with things other than cars. He had seen a whiz-bang router table in a catalog and wanted to buy one. He asked if anyone had one, how was the quality, and generally looked for others to validate his choice. As the thread lengthened it came out that this would basically be his very first tool purchase; he had no projects in mind, knew nothing of the basic uses of a router table--AND, believe it or not, he didn't even own a router! It's sooo easy to be seduced by the capabilities of tools, all their "bells and whistles" and the photographs of the work they can produce, while ignoring the hard realities of your own plans, skills, knowledge, budget and limitations.
Plunging into the sales rooms without knowing what tools you need and why, you can spend an awful lot of money buying things for which you may have little or no use.
Sorry this is so long; and I'm sorry to play the spoiler.
Alan
With no shame, I stole this from elsewhere. The author is one of my inspirations...
"What I am about to say are my observations.I have been hanging around here for about 2 years now. I have read many posts by those beginning in woodworking. A number are asking what books to read to learn woodworking. Books are * good * but they are just that books.* NOT * hands on instruction and I have a difficult time with the idea of learning how to do it with books and even videos, as the sole source of instruction. I realize full well that most do not have the time to drop everything and take 6 months to 2 years learning from a willing instructor or at some school. Most schools require you to have some background in the craft prior to enrolling. Sort a like the chicken and the egg, no?I would suggest that first thought should be given to hand tools.Get comfortable with holding a handsaw, chisel, plane and hammer.
You will be surprised how much there is to learn about the way you hold each tool, how it works on different woods. And it will help too in your understanding of how a particular wood works. You don't need a set of Lie-Nielsen planes or a set of Japanese chisels either. A few Record or Stanley ( made in England) planes and a set of Marples Blue handled or even the Stanley black and yellow handled ones will do.
Start with very uncomplicated projects. A birdhouse, shoeshine kit, a pull toy for a child. And use plans that is what they are for. Above all do not become discouraged. You * are * going to make mistakes. Accept it, analyze where you went wrong and move on. Don't rush out and buy $5.00 a board foot wood. Go to the local Home Depot or whatever and get some pieces of plain old Pine shelving stock and work with that.
Patience is not only a virtue it an absolute necessity in woodworking, as in all crafts. This is not instant gratification but it 'is' very gratifying when well done. As you gain confidence add to your tools based upon the direction you wish to take in the craft. Kitchen cabinets will require power tools. Whilst a person interested in small boxes and the like may well get along without a significant number of them. Proper and safe use of power tools requires careful thinking and the forgiveness factor that was present in hand tool work is conspicuous by its absence! Make every effort to get some form of instruction in person prior to purchasing or using power tools on your own.If the local school system does not offer instruction perhaps a local woodworking/ cabinet shop would be willing to give basic lessons for a small fee. The posts I read from people who are purchasing table saws, band saws and the like and who mention that they have no previous experience with such tools is very upsetting from a safety perspective if from nothing elseI wrote not too long ago under the nom-de-plume of The^ADZE.In one of the stories I mentioned a character named 'little hatShapiro' and his misadventures with a full size floor mounted shaper. That story was based on fact! The real life person upon whom I based that character did have that dangerous experience and in my presence too. He had quite a bit of experience in woodworking in a production environment, yet just one miscalculation and in the blink of an eye he was in harms way.
When I entered my apprenticeship it was some little time before I did more than pull nails out of staging planks. I was exposed to much by observing and helping so that when it came timefor me to actually do something all was not new and strange.There was awareness and a bit of understanding of a process gained by all that frustrating observation and assisting. The light bulb did not suddenly flash on but some current was trickling in.
On power tools may I say that it is my opinion that the best you can afford is none too good. Don't let price be your only criteria.Remember these companies are fully aware of the average spendable income of home shop types and they build and sell accordingly. A second hand machine of good quality is to be preferred to a brand new, price is right machine of lesser quality. And there is today a vast difference in quality even in similar models made by the same manufacturer. Tools may not make the craftsman but they should not hinder the process either.Outfit yourself with a good set of mechanics tools as you are buying our woodworking hand tools. You will need them for fine tuning your machines eventually anyhow and they do come in handy for fixing the car or washing machine also.<insert big grin here>Above all I cannot stress planning your steps and patience in executing them. Woodworking is to some a vocation and nothing more. A means to an end. Whilst to others such as I it is * both * a vocation and an avocation."
Wise words from an individual who broke from his "chosen for him" path, and forged his own.
In fairly common agreement it seems, a RAS should be way down on you list, at least in my opinion. As another indicated, a plane is my favorite tool also. I love the sound, feel, smell, action, and especially the by product (the shavings, LOL, are the best part).
Have fun!
Gee, I really thought there would be some die-hard radial arm proponents out there, but the comments seem unanimously in favor of the table saw. It would be my choice, but I'm suprised at the unanimity.
I have owned and used a RAS for about 35 years, have cross-cut, ripped, mitered . It may not be the best for any of those operations, but does many things well. One must be careful, but that is always true with power tools.
Do not fool yourself . Any kind of circular saw can cause kick-back. I will never forget admistering anesthesia to a lumber-yard worker who was standing in the wrong place when a large rip-saw threw a 50# plank across the room striking him in the belly. Upon opening the abdomen there was stomach contents everywhere. He survived.
I momst often rip with the bandsaw.
Tom
if there are any fans of the older but goodie Radial arm saws out there check out this web site they have a Radial arm saw forum..
http://www.mrsawdust.com
EDIT~ Might add this is a forum about Dewalt Radials ToolDoc
Edited 8/30/2003 12:59:51 PM ET by TOOLDOC
In Defense of the Radial Arm Saw:
I'm one of those who never had a large area for my woodworking tasks. My 'shop' is composed of one half of a two car garage. I purchassed my De Walt Radial Arm saw over thirty years ago, and I have never owned a table saw. With all due respect to those who have responded to your inquiry, the RS has satisfied my every cutting need. In addition to cutting (including both ripping and cross-cutting), the RS can sand, and even shape with the proper attachments. I'm sure that I've done things with the RS that your average woodworker would never even consider doing.
If I were fortunate enough to have a larger shop area, I would certainly have a table saw, for panal ripping alone. Don't be fooled, however' by those who would castigate the RS. It's very versatile tool. Ideally, I would have both a table saw and a chop saw. Many of the tasks intended to be done by the RS can now be done with a quality chop saw. I believe the key word here is 'quality'. Whatever tools you purchase, be certain to buy the highest quality tools you can afford. The quality of your work will depend on this important consideration.
Lastly,there are no safe power tools. Although some are safer than others, they all have the potential do do great bodily harm if they are used carelessly or in any way incorrectly. With proper precaution, your quality tools can perform woodworking miracles. I have enjoyed woodworking as a hobby for more than fifty years. It remains, in retirement, my favorite activity. Enjoy!!!
A lot of it is what you get used to using. In my home shop I have no use for a RAS. As for pushing the limits of the tablesaw one can cut circles and shape with a moulding head. I have done a lot of non-ferrous cutting on my TS. At work we have a Dewalt Timber Cutter RAS which will take up to a 42" blade. We use a 36" for the most part. Pic shows the guard tilted back for a special operation.
Edited 8/31/2003 9:47:46 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
Edited 8/31/2003 9:48:39 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
The
I suppose I should put in my 2 cents worth also.
I have used Radial Arms Saws for over 30 years.
My shop has 2 Radial Arms Saws and 2 Table Saws in it (some what tight fit).
I keep the Radial Arm Saws set up one with a Dado Blade, the other with a Crosscut Blade, and never use them for other them 90 degree cuts. If I need to mitre or do any angles I use jigs for them.
They are a great tool, but I never rip on them, only on the table saws.
Yes, they are very versatile, and useful for alot of work.
Most of the new ones available are just not built like the old ones.
Yes, the Sliding Compound Mitre Saw has replace most of their role today.
If given a choice of my first saw, I would say the Table saw is best, depending on the type of cuts and work you plan to do.
Jeff
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