I need a bigger table saw. Anyone care to comment? I can’t find anything about:
1. New model craftsman saws
2. Hitachi model C10FL (I like the up front wheels)
A lot of folks around here tend to like the Rigid and I have the Rigid SCM which I like too, but I bought it for the stroke lenght. I’d like to buy one with router extension capability and mobility. Thanks
Replies
Look at the current Wood Magazine for info on the new Craftsman hybrid saw. There were a couple things in there that I didn't pick up on in other reviews.
Any saw can be made mobile. Couldn't find any info on the Hitachi you mentioned. Do you have a link?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I looked at the Hitachi in Lowes and I prefer just about every other $500-$600 saw in the category over the Hitachi. The fence was average at best, but wouldn't even slide on the rails (probably set up issues, but)....same was true on a second model at a second store 260 miles away, plus I read of someone who encountered the same thing(!). The wings are thin sheet metal with no ribbing for strength. The enclosed base and motor is a good idea, but the cabinet trunnions and DC on the new Sears models are better. The Hitachi also offers casters, but they're individual wheels on each leg than need to be raised and lowered independently...I rather get an aftermarket base or build my own....the Ridgid base rolls over the Hitachi offering. Other downsides that any new saw encounter are "being new"...no history, but time will tell. The handwheels were kind of chincy IMO, but that's not a big deal. Considering the well established entries that already exist, I was disappointed and feel that Hitachi fell short of the mark. They'll have to lower the price to make it attractive to me.
I'd definitely look at the new Sears models....those trunnions and enclosed motor offer some advantages, and the preliminary feedback has been very positive.
Griz has two models that a very good examples of a traditional contractor saw. Shop Fox has two identical models, but with the benefit of dealer support and a two year warranty.
Delta has some new models that may be worth a look...36-675, 36-680, 36-682.
The Ridgid typically gets good comments as a solid value. The mobile base is excellent, the fence has a plastic handle that I'm not fond of.....it seems to work while it's still on the saw!
Bridgewood has a nice basic saw through Wilke Machinery....similar to the better Griz, but with lower amp draw.
General Intl makes an excellent contractor saw, but @ $699, may be more than you wanted to spend.
I'm in Raleigh and I can't find a local supplier for General Intl or Shop Fox unless they are sold under another name. I looked at Sears and the fence looks just like the Rigid! I'd prefer to buy from a local dealer with a good chance of staying in business to avoid the long distance support issues. Shopsmith used to have a local outlet and I've been using mine for the past 25 years and have built cabinets, tables, toys, 1 #@%* chair, doors, fences, sheds and a lot of home repairs, but I'm tired of setting up 'third hands' for pieces of any size. It has a tiny table and the up-grade is $400.00+ for $32.00 worth of extruded aluminum!
For me, on any given project I've usually cut enough material or sawdust in 1 hour to keep me busy for the rest of my play period. So 110V is fine with me. I won't say money is no object, but I always say that when it comes to tools, clothes or food; buy the best you can taste!
And price don't mean quality!
I appreciate all of the feedback and from the responses I've seen so far this may be the forum on tools that Consumer Reports has only vaguely addressed.
Joe
Klingspor's woodworking on capitol blvd in Raleigh stocks the General saws. They're beautiful. Klingspor's have been around for some time, and support the Triangle woodworks association, so I try to give them business if they carry what I want. They dont' have the best hand tools and accessories selection, but they have the full line of Delta, General, Powermatic and Jet/performax powertools, so you can see a lot side by side. google Klingspor's for a phone and address.
Edited 12/10/2004 11:47 am ET by batorok
Joe, here are the questions I ask my customers.
Q's
1. How often do you use the saw.
2. Do you wish to improve your woodworking skills
3. What do you expect the new saw to do that your old one doesn't.
Most common A's
1. Regularly
2. Yes
3. Cut straight
What these answers usually mean.
1. I use it on weekends occasionally and once in a while I get into the shop for an hour or so on a week night
2. I've been reading every wood working magazine there is and there is so much that I can't learn because my saw doesn't do the things I see and read about.
3. I've never learned to tune my saw.
From all this I usually respond with so the real reason you want a new saw is just because you want a new saw. Don't laugh, this is commonly the most honest answer I get. Nobody ever says, I dropped a 500lb anvil on my saw table and now it won't cut straight, or my current saw is so old and cheap that it doesn't have a fence and I have to cut everything free hand using a chalk line... Now those would be reasons to buy a new saw!
Seriously, buying a new saw can easily be something you will be sorry about for a long time. For that reason I can only recommend that you save a few extra bucks even if it means struggling with the old saw for a little longer. Then when you are really ready to buy, spend the money and buy quality. At least that way if you should decide to give up the hobby or you just need money to pay bills, you can sell it without much difficulty.
My recommendations are -
Contractor saw: Powermatic 64A or General International 50-185-M1.. Under a 1,000.00 and all the bells and whistles without having to re-wire the garage.
Next level...
Cabinet Saw: General Canada or Powermatic 10". In the 2500.00 range, and you need to get your shop wired for 240 and have an electrician wire the saw up for you, (I gotta say that now for insurance purposes).
Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Do you ever recommend that they just learn how to tune up their old saw?I have worked on probably a hundred saws, many of them beat up 'hobbyist models", and have yet to find a saw that wasn't capable of furniture grade work once it was tuned up and given a good blade.John W.
"I have worked on probably a hundred saws, many of them beat up 'hobbyist models", and have yet to find a saw that wasn't capable of furniture grade work once it was tuned up and given a good blade."
Very good, John! Example: I had a Craftsman contractor saw; almost the top of their line when I bought it a number of years ago. I finally dinked with it enough to get the blade truly parallel to the miter slot. Squaring the fence was a snap anyway. I still wasn't really satisfied with it but kept building stuff. I had a decent Freud blade that was much better than the Craftsman blades I had gotten over the years. After I had the Freud blade sharpened, I was very happy with my saw.
Having said all that, I replaced it early this year with a Jet 3hp cabinet saw with extension table and router lift. Why? Because I wanted to replace it, not because it was totally incapable of doing what I needed. The greatest fault I could find with the Craftsman saw when I sold it was trying to cut 8/4 and thicker hardwoods; the additional power of the Jet plows right through them. All it took with the Craftsman was a little slower feed rate and a little greater patience.
Sometimes we buy what we need. Most times, we probably buy what we want!
Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
John, yes I actually have a pamphlet that I have created on how to do just that. I have copies of it scattered around the store and I regularly refer customers to it.Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Do any of you think that if there was enough complaining and noise making about it from people on forums like this, that there would be a little chance of standardizing the motor specs? The consumer air compressor industry had a class action suit filed against it and now the people who bought certain brands/models are getting some compensation for the ratings being higher than actual performance. Obviously, the lawyers are the real financial winners, but now that the ratings are supposed to be more realistic, the people who have no idea that there's such a difference between rating and performance will get more for their money. Maybe. There's a difference between power drawn and developed, too. What they should really do is show the draw and the output torque. I think everyone has some experience with a motor that was rated to do something and it turned out to be a gutless wonder.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You mean like 6.25 hp shop vacs, 4.4 hp Bosch and Craftsman jobsite saws, 3hp Hitachi contractor saw, 3.25 hp routers by everyone, etc., etc. ? I despise the practice and the deception, but I think it's a tough case.
Edited 12/12/2004 8:30 pm ET by scotty
Yup. That's what I meant. If someone went after them for claiming those specs on a 120V line, it would be a clear cut case. If the claim was for a 220V line, it's still iffy for a couple of those. Add to that the little fact that there is nothing where power in = power out (not voltage in = voltage out), I think it could be done. Like I said, they did it against the air compressor industry and won. It's all a matter of lying till they are caught, then they say "sorry".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
To tell you the truth, if we were to consolidate and complain about something en masse, I'd rather it be about the crappy splitter/blade guard assemblies. Having to retro-fit every blasted saw with a snap-in splitter, and then a different (overhead) guard is ridiculous. It couldn't possibly be that difficult to redesign the things so we'd be happy with them rather than throw them away. Hrrrumph!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I agree, but they would have to invest money in a valid safety system and since they already supply one, that makes no sense. To them. I don't like the one that came with my saw, don't like what I have seen with any others and I looked at the little plastic thing they sell at Rockler and Woodcraft. In the words of Moe Sizlak(sp?), "Wha- whaaaaa?" That thing has 3 tiny plastic pins that hold it in place and if there's a major problem, it will never last. I may just say "screw it" and make something this winter that fits, is easily adjustable and is easy to remove.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
FG:
You are right. and wrong. First, it would be challenging to redesign saws to include quality, effective safety devices like built-in spliiters and guards that work. Not to say that it can not be done...but it would be challenging to:
1. Make the design changes
2. Re-tool for the new product
3. Go to production (maybe even with a different Asian source)
4. Market the new features
5. Get the prouduct into distribution
6. Start taking orders
On the other hand it is clear that the customer (us) want those features. Now the manufacturers have to develop a plan to offer it at a price we the customer will pay and yet still make a profit to satisfy the shareholders. The process is dynamic and complicated.
I beleive that the tool and machinery manufacturers most likely have a product plan to come out with these products that have the features we really want, we just do not have insight to them now. If you really wnat to get your opinion and desires expressed it will take more than just participating in this forum. I would suggest writing, emaliing, calling the manufature and detailing what you like and want. Do not think that the manufacturer is not going to listen. It is way to competitive to not listen.
Right now all the manufacurers have even bigger issues with the supply-chain on metal availability and huge raw material price increases over the last year. Currently China is going through its own little modern day industrial revolution and the country is sucking up world wide demand for metals. We all know that prices are going up big time starting the first of the year for machinery and tools.
BTW-- I also have an affinity for Griz tools like yourself. Do you own the 14" BS? IF so what are are your thoughts?
Later-
Cheatah
Tool Guy,
It's great to know that somebody is trying to educate people on maintaining their machines.
John W.
You have a tough job ahead of you! Alot of good things said about the Grizzly, but are you near to their showroom. The sears are local if in stock, Ridgid local at HD, I ended up with the Dewalt 746K as I could get it and play with it locally and compare it with the others. I also wanted the sliding table. All in all I have no regrets with it.
Joe, First of you don't mention what kind or size of saw you have now. When you say "bigger saw" are you refering to the motor, blade or table size? Also how often do you use it?
In any shop the main tool is the table saw, that's a given. But how and what it's used for determine what kind you will want to invest in. As I haven't seen any 8" saws in years, lets go with 10". Now, there are a lot of different 10" table saws on the market. There isn't one of them that can't be made mobile. Even a cabnet saw can be made mobile. And a contractor's saw can be mounted on a cabnet. A piece of 3/4" Birtch plywood added to one side of the table saw makes a good router table. And there are lots of different jigs that can be made for use on any table saw.
That's why you need to take how often its going to be used and what its going to be used for into consideration.
I have a 10" 2hp Craftsman contractors saw in my shop. It's been a very good saw nad I've made a lot of dust. It also came with dual voltage wiring capability, 110v or 220v. Wired for 220v and with a good carbide blade, she'll rip through a 2" thick piece of kiln dried oak about as fast as a 2" thick piece of pine. The table is acceptable as is the fence. But I was less than happy when the motor went bad. The only way Sears would even look at it was if I took the WHOLE saw in for repair. And I couldn't find a source for a replacement motor. Jet, Delta, Grizzly and others offer repair of just the motor but not Sears I finally found an electrical repairman that could fix the motor.
If you intend to use it a lot, you might be better going to Grizzly, Delta or even Jet. Or, unless there is something seriously wrong with your current saw, you might consider giving it a good tune up, getting a good after market fence, a top quality blade and making an extension table. If your not sure how to tune up your existing saw, Wood Magazine & American Woodworker, as well as some of the other woodworking magazines have had good articles on what to do. Good luck
Shucks.
I got the new top-of-the-line Craftsman (22124) Table Saw in early October.
There are NO "issues" to report. It does everything that I hired it to do (and then some).
I considered the Griz, the Ridgid, and several Deltas. I'm used to working with Generals and Delta Unis
I Like my choice.
--Steve
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Penury is the Mother of Invention
Hi, Joe. Yesterday I made up some flimsy excuse for why I needed to go to East Bremerton during a shopping outing, and hubby and I stopped by Lowe's. There was a Hitachi tablesaw on the floor, all set up. It has some features that are seriously cool, but it may still fall short.
Cool features: Blade-tilting wheel is in the front. There's a gauge imbedded in the table that tells you what your angle is! Round plexi window about the size of a fifty-cent piece. Fence seemed solid.
Uncool features: The wings are not cast iron, but flat aluminum or maybe steel (no weight there, just surface). The micro-adjust feature on the fence didn't work well at all and the fence didn't slide on the rail well. I still can't believe that the 15-amp motor develops 3 HP.
I didn't spend as much time fooling with it as I wanted because the salesman kept babbling at me.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Are you a major babe, FG?? You were being pestered by a salesman in a big box?? I have to walk the aisles and chase one down when I need one - and then get lots of dumb looks. - lol
Maybe I need to shave more often. - lol
Hi there FG... Regarding Hitachi, great tools, good support but not so accurate as to be finding homes in the fine woodworkers shop. They are however, light weight and dependable and for those reasons I now carry the full line. The people out there lugging them around like them and tell me they are more likely to take one off the truck to do a job because its not gonna break their backs.
Once you cross over from carpenter to woodworker you start to notice and become concerned about all the things you mentioned about the Hitachi saw. Most folks that use this brands woodworking line use it in the trades as carpenters.
As for the horsepower issue - Its clutch horsepower which means that it would need the the power of 3 mine ponies to stop the motor once it had attained maximum RPM. Dont get picky on me about the ponies its just rhetoric LOL.. Anyway the motor cannot sustain 3 hp over any given period of time while under load. Why you ask... because its theoretically impossible, (remember, its still electron theory). The maximum hp you can create on a 110-120vac 15amp circuit is about 2.3. But if you dont specify that this is to be the true sustainable hp of the motor and throw in a few pounds of centrifical force and a little bit of action/reaction, the next thing you know, it takes 3 hp to stop the motor dead. However, it doesn't take 3 hp to keep it from starting from a dead stop, probably more like about 7/8 hp.Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
I thought I sent this. Apparently fell into the bit bucket.
First I want to thank all of you for your responses. Second I bought the Sears 22124. I couldn’t turn it down. Delta, Grizz and General contractor saws were the same price when you factor in shipping, commercial fence and dust collection. None of the others allow for try it/return it! This thing is really quiet too. Haven’t had a chance to run another 220 but the 110 is strong. Ripped right through some 5/4 oak and walnut. With sale, delivery rebate and Craftsman Club I paid $789.00 before tax. The saw (made in China) arrived perfectly aligned, while the Biesemeyer fence (made in USA) had problems. Had to retap one hole, adjusting screws filled with paint and the cursor slots don’t match the mounting screw holes. Now if I can get the cursor problem fixed.
Joe
Congrats Joe.....guess you were a good boy this year!
Definite congrats to you :-)
Now that I have a bit over two months of steady use of my 22124 I can only say that I'm even happier with my choice now than I was when I first got it.
Joe - the Biesemeyer "issues" you noted apparantly aren't "issues" as far as the folks at Biesemeyer are concerned... I went to the horse' mouth with the same questions as you noted -- The Biesemeyer plant is 2-miles up the street from me.
Biesemeyer doesn't give a flip about what the end user has to say -- they sluffed me off to the nearest retailer (who happens to not be the purveyor of our saw). They (Biesemeyer) don't give a flip about the fact that Sears is selling their product -- Sears isn't on their list of local retailers of their (Biesemeyer) products. Things aren't quite right with alignment? So what? It's NOT Biesemeyer's fault or concern! At least that's the impression they gave me when I walked into the Visitor's Entrance and asked questions.
The Biesemey fence works well -- it's solid and reliable and dead on. The people that work there are solid jerks, relialble only in the sense that they'll not give a d*** about a customer and dead-on useless. Makes that X-acta fence -- or any other T-Square design -- seem like the Way To Go.
(I Still LIKE my 22124 Saw, though!)
--Steve
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Penury is the Mother of Invention
Well Sears is stepping up to the plate. I called the 800# on the cover of the owners manual, explained the problem and the guy said he would break open boxes until he could find a fence/cursor combination that worked and FedEx it to me.
As regards Biesemeyer's attitude; the first law of economics is
The Law of Substitution !
Joe
GREAT!
I'm especially happy to hear that Sears is going to bat via the help line #!!!
There was/is someone on that woodnet forum "thing" who was a bit more than Rather Vehement about Sears having taken the 800 Help/Service line down about 6-months ago because he just absolutely knew from personal experience and that was that! ( hooo boy! )
You're really going to enjoy that big hulking thing!
--Steve
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Penury is the Mother of Invention
Maybe they've heard...This from Biesemeyer:
Joe,I made our production manager aware of your problem with your hairlinepointer mounting holes. In speaking with him, I found out that we receiveda batch of the material from our supplier that was oversized. The anglecrossarm portion of the fence was oversized. this caused the arm to sitincorrectly in the drilling fixture. Thus causing the holes for the pointerto be drilled incorrectly. He thought that all of the bad crossarms hadbeen returned to our vendor. Obviously we did not catch all of them. Atthis point, the quickest fix is to ream out the slots on the pointer. It isan option (and I do agree with you) not the best way to handle it from acustomer service standpoint.Since you had the foresight to include your address with this e-mail, I amgoing to have a new fence made for you (with the holes drilled in thecorrect location) and I will have it shipped to you at no charge. When youget the replacement fence, contact me again and I will make arrangements tohave the defective fence picked up and returned to us. Please let me knowif you have any questions or concerns.Regards,Don EwingBiesemeyer Customer Service1-800-782-1831 Ext 117
Joe, I think this response from Biesemeyer is worth of a separate thread. I also conclude that it illustrates what kind of service we can get if we approach the appropriate person with a problem. Obviously, Putzger thought that by going straight down to the plant, he'd get some results, but it doesn't seem that he was in contact with someone who had the knowledge or training to help him.
Obviously, Biesemeyer didn't achieve the reputation they have for quality fences by being the jerks they were described as in the earlier post.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You know the old saying "The creme rises to the top". Just proves like the problem with the delta table saw thread, you just have to churn it up a bit. (Sorry could not pass up the pun).
WOW! Real customer service.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Picked up Workbench Feb 2005; rated 4 hybrids.
Consider a used Unisaw or Powermatic 66.
I was in the market for a new TS and rwanted to stay about $800. I read the reviews and narrowed my search to the Hybrid Dewalt the Griz 123 and Jet contractor saw. Once I actually looked them I wasn't sold on any of them. Try rotating any of these elevation wheels, you'll bang your nuckels and they feel like plastic.
I looked at eBay and found a used Powermatic 66 with the fence and iter gage all for $700 - I bought it. Folks this beast is in a whole different class of machinery. My saw came out of an old cabinet shop, its 30 yrs old and built like a Tank. It will out live me. When this saw was new it was close to the cost of a car, they were purchased by professionals and normally maintained correctly. Even if it need to be overhauled its about $100 for the bearings and belts. Worst case is a new motor at $325.
If I get tired of this I can resell it tomorrow for $600-700.
Consider a used Unisaw or Powermatic 66.
Glad you found a good Powermatic used, and impressed you got it on eBay at a decent price :-)
Curious, though, about your handwheels ("feel like plastic") comment -- seems unlikely that would apply to the Grizzly 1023S -- they're huge, heavy and all metal (steel or iron) aren't they?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You are correct about the Griz 123's wheels. Actually I didn't get to see the 123 until later.
BTW .. I saw one of your postings covering storage racks. I am looking for plans for a mobile vertical plywood rack. Do you have recommendations?
Thanks
Bill DeBender
Hmmmm, mobile vertical playwood rack. Mine stores vertically, but not 8 feet vertically, if you know what I mean. I bought it at an auction for $5 or $15, can't remember, it's 6' long I think, big casters, angle iron frame.
One of the current mags had designs for wood storage, all mobile, but in this pre-holiday disaster zone, I can't seem to find it. It held them upright (8') with full sheets on one side, and variable-depth slots for partial sheets.
I'm cleaning house this weekend, if I find it I'll let you know.
BTW, the Grizzly that I lust for is a 1023.I'm partial to the 1023S myself :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Please drop me a note if you locate that magazine article.
I have read several positive reviews on that model. That was my first choice but I couldn't spend the $1000.
Why did I have to be born poor?
Have a nice weekend
Bill DeBender
Will do. I'm helping a friend stock a new shop tonight, and finishing Christmas packing and shipping tomorrow, but after that, it's all clean-up, which means I will find that article, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Bill- if you cranked the elevation and tilt wheels on the 1023, you shouldn't have had a problem, unless they were locked in position (or the lock was almost tight). The wheels are castings and oversized to make it easier to crank. I have that saw and with my big hands, have never banged anything under the tabletop. Bones- are you referring to the Peter Principle? "People will rise to their own level of incompetence".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hi Bill sorry to interupt your conversation. I built a vertical ply rack and it works very well. I don't have a lot of plywood so it is not huge but you could adjust it. Essentially it is a 8' 2x6 vertical, with a 4' 2x6 horizontal screwed on the bottom end and reinforced with 2 angle brackets. So now it is a large L shape. I took a 4'x4' piece of 1/2" ply and cut it diagonally. Screw each of these to each side to reinforce the L. I put a 4" castor on the front of the 1 and one on the rear. I then placed 2 large gate hinges 1 at the top and 1 at the bottom of the vertical piece and screwed it to the side of my garage door jamb. When in the closed position it blocks half of the garage door, and when open it is 90* inside my shop, where I can pull sheets out of the end. Hope this helps someone.
Peter
I can not visualize your rack. By any chace can you get a picture and send it to me.? This rack is my January project. I just finished off the inside of my garage. Now I know I can not be a drywaller...I would starve. My next project is to finish the upstairs over the garage, where I'm storing all my lumber.
Thanks for your email
I heard from on response that a recent wood working type magazine had an articl on Lumber storage racks. If you see it - please send me email.
Have a safe and wonderful holiday.
Bill DeBender
I am new here, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in since I am shopping for a table saw as well.
I visited a Klingspor (I think that's right) store today and checked out the General 50-185 since the magazine picked it. I probably don't need a saw of that caliber since I am not a serious woodworker (maybe heading that way). However, I am not on a budget and like to buy quality products (within reason of course) when I purchase something. I want more than a $200 Ryobi from Home Depot but I can't justify the dollars or space for the cadillac saws. I'm in the $500-1000 range I think.
Anyway, I walked away seriously considering the Geveral as well as the Delta X5 (36-507X). The Delta has my interest for several reasons:
1. Made in USA (or at least that's the claim). I try to buy American when I can.
2. 5-year warranty (versus the 2-year for the General)
3. When you compare them with a Delta discount right now, the price is close. I get a mobile base (which I need being in a 2-car garage) and a blade with the Delta, which I'd buy for the General. This store also has 10% off the Delta through Monday. This puts the out-the-door price of both saws between $800 and $900 dollars within $90 of each other
Anyone have any opinions on the Delta X5 versus the General??
Thanks
Hi Tim - Either of the saws you mentioned should be excellent, and you've listed valid reasons for liking the Delta. The 50-185 M1 w/30" rip should be selling for ~ $699....the LM1 version with 52" rip will fetch a bit more (~25-$75), but neither GI version should be $800-$900. Were there other accessories in the package that you included in the price? Good luck with your decision.
Thanks for the reply scotty,
I think I understand your question. I tried to compare the two "apples to apples" you know. The General 50-185 ($699) plus buying a blade and a mobile base iss about $820. The Delta comes with a blade and you get a mobile base for free. With a 10% discount through 12/27, it is about $890. That comparison leaves me walking out the door with the same components. Otherwise, it was an unfair comparison.
With that money difference, the Delta deserves more consideration to me being American made and having a longer warranty. The General does have a little more HP (1.5 versus 2) and has two cast iron extensions, where the Delta has one cast iron and the other is wood or MDF. However, the Delta wood side is extended (62" I think) with legs. That may be another selling point for the Delta.
I am still contemplating whether I need a table saw of this caliber. If anyone knows of a smaller (portable style) saw for under $500 that is good quality, please point me in the right direction. I just want to be able to occassionally rip boards true and square without using a circular saw and piece of angled aluminum clamped to the workpiece. That works, but its never as god as it shoud be. If I have to spend the $600-900 for the Delta or General, then I'll do it. The Delta is looking better and better, but I only have through Monday to buy and get the 10% (!$100) off.
Tim
Greetings All,
I'm new to this forum, like Tim. I too am looking for a replacement for my 25+ year old Sears table saw. There are many things I am simply tired of fighting with in this machine. Don't ask me why I didn't replace it years ago. There is no belt tensioning when raising/lowering the blade, the fence doesn't glide and most of the time does not set parallel to the blade when clamped down. The miter is the least of the problems, but still is a bit too sloppy for me. 1 HP motor is too small for what I am cutting. I have an excellent 60 tooth blade.
I'm looking for accuracy in cut, easy movement of the fence, 30" right of fence, a left tilt machine (away from the fence) and cast iron table with solid cast iron extensions and a cost topping at $800 to $1,000. Certainly willing to pay less, but not to compromise the machine.
Looking at Powermatic 64A, Delta 36-682, Dewalt DW746x, Ridgid TS3650 and Sears 22124, some of the contractor saws appear to be what I'm looking for, but what is the difference between these contractor saws and a cabinet saw? I don't need a 50 or 52" table. Max. thickness of material may be 6/4 hardwood.
I looked at the Ridgid at HD and I didn't like the openings in the side extensions. I could put up with them. $569. The fence also did not slide smooth, but that must be a setup issue. I can't imagine a fence NOT running smooth on any of these machines at this cost level. The Dewalt is $899 and looks like a very good machine. One of the reviews I had read on line rated this one the best over Delta, General and Ridgid.
I wasn't thinking about Sears as a replacement...but Steve planted the thought. Trying to find a place here in Albany, NY to see these machines may be a bit too much to ask!
My basic question is what do I gain by looking at a cabinet saw? Is there a difference between a woodworking saw and a contractor saw?
Hope to hear from you!
Mark B
Hi Mark,
I was just in the same deal about my 1967 Craftsman ts. Lottsa hassles all the time. I think just wore out! Had the 1 hp too....this is gonna be long....
Well I had been planning on buying the 1023 LH Griz for 2 years. It's a heck of a saw they say. But I have 2 friends that own one, though they are several years old, they have had some serious issues with them. Seems the size and quailty of the arbor bearings may be a problem. One guy has had to replace the bearings twice in 4 years!!! That is more than I want to deal with.
I wanted a NEW saw soooooo I was limited to around $1000 for one. Would love to had a big Delta or Powermatic.
After much looking I jumped on the Craftsman 22124. Now I know Sears wood tools are not on the top of everyone's wish list, even swore them off myself for about 6 years (bad exp with 2 different routers). But I am in love with this new machine. It is not a contractor nor a cabinet saw but fits more in the hybrid saw area. Even at that it is different from the Jet and Dewalt as the truion attaches to the cabinet not the table. It's 1 3/4 hp. Tried a 4ft peice of 8/4 red oak thru it 1st go around and it melted thru it. I guess what I love most about it though is that full fledged Bessie fence, boy is it a love at 1st bite lol...anyway it took me a day and a half to uncrate it and set it up, with much fussing over every little detail, though it was not needed. Only thing I had to adjust was the 45 stop. Everything was dead on out of the box! The blade was less than .001 out on the match up with the mitre slot. I would have made it worse if I would have tried to get it better! The blade they include is China made (as is the saw) but it seemed to be better than average. It won't take the place of my WW II, but I will use it.
It comes with a out fed fold down table about 24x24 and a right side Bessie exten table. So it kinda has a few goodies with it. I did go ahead and spring for the 5yr ext warr. It gives you in-shop manitence and repair, once a year pm on the saw if you want it and if they have to work on it 3 times during the contract period the 4th time they come out they bring you a new saw in the box and take yours away.
Anyway there's a low down on the 22124 from my view. Hope you find what you need and enjoy whatever you decide on
Jimmy
" as always I wish you enough"
Jimmy,
Thanks for the quick reply. Your story is almost Deja vu! 2 routers and this table saw turned me off the Craftsman for......I can't count the years/decades. Did you look at the Powermatic 64A? Thought with the 66 as the machine, they would incorporate or "dumb down" the technology into this saw.
I have been reading as many reviews as I can find and I'll tell you, some are actually unbelievable. At epinions.com three reviews on the same machine and one review stated the 64A was off 1 1/4 inch in height from extension to extension and the extensions didn't fit square to the main table. He had to shim it 1/8 of an inch! The other two rated it very high. Sometime you wonder what's going on.
Any thoughts on the Dewalt dw746x? The specs on this machine are a bit better than most in it's category, but the same thing as above, one review ripped it apart where others gave it an excellent rating.
I haven't heard much about the Sears machine.... maybe that's a good thing. I'll be going out today to Lowes to look at several saws and then stop at Sears, since they too carry Delta and I want to see the 22124. I'm not in any rush, so the "wandering thru the wilderness" will be a joy and hopefully thorough.
Thanks Again,
Mark B
Hey Mark,
I think everyone has had the "Sears Thing". I know I have. And though I have jumped out on this 22124 I don't intend to be buying Craftsman tools.
Haven't read anything on the 64b. I'm sure every machine has it's quirks! I'm also sure someone else is going to by a 22124 and have nitemares!!! I have never encountered any tool or peice of machinerey that was always perfect. I will say I read several reviews on this forum that cast a very postive light on this saw I bought, plus Wood DEC/JAN had a short review to the postive. I went to check out the 22114 but it DOES remind me of a Craftsman tool. Too much plastic. A fence that is suspect. The deWalt Hybrid does not impress me. Mainly as it is very pricey and any goodies to go with it are $$$$$ eg sliding table is over 500 and I guess, even though I own a couple of deWalt tools, I don't like Black & Decker. But I'm sure it is a great machine.
I think that any saw, planer etc that is out there is going to have it's problems and mainly I look for negative reviews espeically if they are ALL NEGATIVE.
I'm sure whatever machine you purchase will be a great one. Hey that's what makes the world go round...Guess that's why I love these forums. you get such a vast difference of options!!
Good luck in your pursuit of a new tablesaw. Be sure to let us know what ya' get!
Jimmy
" as always I wish you enough"
Hi Mark B - Jimmy did a nice job addressing the new Craftsman 22124. There are several happy owners over at Woodnet.net, and even though I'm not an owner, I've been impressed with what I've seen. I think this saw has several advantages over the DW746 hybrid, and several advantages over the better contractor saws like the PM64a and the GI50-185. What it doesn't have yet, is a proven track record like the PM and GI.
FWIW, Finewoodworking picked the GI 50-185 above the PM, DW, Delta, Jet hybrid, Jet Contractor saw, Woodtek, Grizzly, and Bridgewood both in the 2004 and 2005 buyer's guide. Also, FWIW I'm very pleased with my GI. Great saw for my needs and a great value.
The PM64a is very similar to the GI....both are made in Taiwan and have very little in common with the American made PM66 cabinet saw. Both a decent hobbyist's saws. Note that the GI is General "International", which is General's overseas line. The General machines are made in Canada and are top shelf industrial grade machines much more like the PM66.
A fellow I ran into a couple of times while shopping for a new table saw came by yesterday to see what a 124 looks like in use. He bought the G150 and just loves it and has the 'press' to back him up.
So I push the START button and he says "I think your belt popped off"
Joe,
What did he say next or did he just leave!
Mark B
The thing runs so quiet he thought he was hearing just the motor. He seemed to be impressed by that, but he's happy with his choice as I am with mine.
Joe
re: opinions on delta vs general:
I vote general:
extra 1/2hp, Left tilt, and cast iron trunions (delta's are aluminum I believe, and right tilt) are all good things in my opinion that the delta lacks.
I had on my wishlist a cabinet saw for 8 years while all I had to use was a lousy bench top model. Many times I was tempted to settle for a contractor model. Finallly I was able to buy the saw of my dreams and I now have no regrets in not settling for a contractor model. I have a 52" fence as well as a 4' off feed table. Dust collection is great. 3 hp 220v is even better when ripping through 3" hardwood without a hickup. I purchased what could be described as a Canadian Delta Unisaw. Everything the Unisaw has except the nameplate. To compete in the Canadian market (with a lower valued dollar) Delta has begun to manufacture Unisaws in Taiwan which has made the final sticker price approx $500 US cheaper. This saw is even 50 lbs heavier than the American made Unisaw. All this being said, I have no regrets waiting to get my dream saw which I will never need to replace in the 40 years of woodworking I have left.
dougb
I just got the Rigid TS3650 Cast Iron Saw, and am quite impressed with it. The alignment was great right out of the box, and things that were out of alignment were cured during assembly. The motor has enough power for any type of work I am likely to do. The saw has features not found on more expensive models made by others, but I am not nuts about the insert or blade guard.
Hope this helps.
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