Can someone give me a personal review on the Saw Stop cabinet saw, and where i can get the best price if i decide to purchase it.
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First things first, SawStop doesn't allow retailers to discount the saw. Everyone has the same price. That said, some retailers will offer services that add "value" to the purchase and some don't. My retailer, for example, uncrated the saw, checked all tolerances, set it up for me, placed it on a mobile base that I also purchased from them and, for only $50 extra (actual bill for delivery was $195), delivered it to my house on a truck with a liftgate. At another retailer (big national franchise store) they only offered to help me put the crate on "my truck."
I have owned the SawStop since February. It's a fantastic saw, on par with the best cabinet saws. The SawStop is very easy to use and adjust. I, however, can only compare it to my old Craftsman that I bought in 1979. Instead of the fence that SawStop sells with the saw, I purchased an Incra fence. I understand that the SawStop fence is excellent, but I wanted to add a router to the right of my SawStop and decided the Incra would be good for both.
I'm sure that if you do a search of this forum and others you'll find all kinds of information on the SawStop. Please understand that there are some who don't like them because of politics of the inventor and/or they feel it's over priced. Others argue that the SawStop technology makes people complacent in terms of safety. A few claim that a European style slider is safer than a regulat table saw. Personally, I don't care about all to political aspects. They don't affect me at all. Yes, the saw is expensive, but the cost of a hospital visit after a table saw accident would be a lot more. I find that I'm much more aware of safety using the SawStop than I ever was when I used my old Craftsman. The technology has made me much more aware of what a table saw can do to human flesh. After reviewing the videos on the SawStop site the LOML insisted that if I was going to continue woodworking that I buy one. I've learned in my 37 years of being married to her that argueing with her isn't a good idea. As for the idea of a slider, it may be a very safe saw and a good choice for some. They're definately worth a look.
Is there something specific that you want to know?
Edited 10/8/2007 9:44 am ET by basset-hound
Thanks for the information, the reason I am looking at saw stop i purchased a pm2000 approx. 3 months ago and the saw is great, put we started teaching woodworking at my school involving the proper use of a table saw and other power equipment. So i must make the decision to stop teaching the safe use of power equipment and just teach woodworking with hand tools that is how we started or purchase SawStop.It is a sad commentary on the American way of life i thank God that our fore fathers did not have this problem. SawStop won't allow merchants to discount the saw i guess for them it's all about the money, i know the integrity of the product might be compromised so much for safety factor. If i am stating something that is not correct please let me know .http://homepage.mac.com/walterc530/Education68.html
We live in a much different world than the one I grew up in. People used to take responsibility for their own actions. Now, they seem to blame everyone else. As a teacher for 37 years I can see the difference and know exactly what you're going through. I'm glad that I'll be able to retire at the end of this year. Somehow I don't think that switching to hand toold will solve the problem either. Some have pointed out on the forums that one of the most dangerous tools that woodworkers use is the chisel.
Perhaps our for forefathers didn't have to put up with all the lawsuits and regulations that we live with today, but they were the ones that set up the system that has lead to all this. Like it or not it is the current American way of life. The only way for us to change the system is the ballot box.
As for SawStop making all the money, that isn't exactly correct. Discounts (not rebates) usually are money out of the retailer's pocket. Like many companies these days, SawStop has decided that no retailer, no matter how big, will have an advantage in the market place over another. They aren't the only people doing this, even in the woodworking tool business.
I don't know how a discount or anything else that might cause the integrity of the SawStop product to be compromised. The SawStop is what it is. Either it meets your needs or it doesn't. Like anything else in life, you either pay the price or you don't.
BTW --- I enjoyed the website. There is some beautiful work displayed on it and it looks like your students get a lot of individual instruction.
Edited 10/8/2007 10:16 pm ET by basset-hound
Thank you,we are the only school teaching woodcarving, woodworking and marquetry on Long Island N.Y. population 2.3 million and the only school that i know of in the N.Y.C. area 6.4 million. Individuals are purchasing power equipment such as table saws but who is instructing them on how to operate them safely.I think sadly my decision is to stop instructing students on the safe use of power equipment and yes a chisel can cut, but it would be an very extreme case for a person to cut off their finger. I don't think that SawStop is a step up from the PM2000 with regards to quality.
You are correct about people buying equipment and not knowing how to use them safely. Your course on table saw safety sounds like it's needed. No matter what saw people have, safety is something that must be foremost when it's being used. I sure wish you the best. From what I saw on your website, you're doing it right.
Perhaps SawStop isn't a step up from the PM2000, but I think that they are at least equal. That's what impressed me about the product. Instead of just producing a "good" quality saw with a brake, SawStop produced a "top quality" one incorporating all the things that woodworkers said that they wanted. People can debate the brands all they want, but it all comes down to quality and function, not brand loyality. In my humble opinion the SawStop gets the job done and my hands are much safer than on any other power tool. For someone like me that's priceless.
Thanks for you input, i guess what rubs me the wrong way is the fact that SawStop won't allow retailers to discount the saw, i dont' think it would diminish their profits. Maybe if they did one other person would purchase it and save themselves from an accident,i guess when you have no competition you can dictate the rules.I would like SawStop to respond to my statement, all i want to know what is their reason. Is this a growing trend in America, no competition.
Well, based on what has happened recently with Festool, another company that doesn't allow retailers to offer any discounts, I doubt that SawStop retailers would welcome a policy allowing retailers to discount the saw. The number of retailers who now sell Festool has grown quite a bit in recent months partly because they don't have to compete with others who would discount them. It's the same with electronics firms such as Sony and Apple. As for no competition, there are many other table saws on the market, including Powermatic, that could have licensed the technology before SawStop decided to make their own saw. You can research it yourself, but the technology was offered at a "reasonable cost" per saw, but the lawyers of the other companies told their companies not to enter the agreement. While others may claim otherwise, I've read the article that was published by a reporter who attended the conference where the lawyers from the major companies were presented that stategy. It was felt that if they accepted the agreement they would be admitting that their present design is "dangerous" and that injuries could have been prevented if they had not offered the machines for sale. The inventor of the SawStop technology also tried to get the technology mandated like airbags and seatbelts. This campaign is what got him in"hot water" with some woodworkers. They wanted the "right" to use equipment that didn't come with a brake. Like I said, you can do all the research on your own, but it all comes down to buying a SawStop if it meets your needs and you can pay the price or you don't buy a SawStop. It's all based on "supply and demand" which, going back to your original post, is the "American way."
Are you saying that Powermatic is then admitting that because they have installed a riving knife on the PM2000 that their other saws are not safe. If that is the case i guess no company would improve on the safety of their machines.If SawStop was discounted would SawStop make more money or less? may be they should sell the saw for $10,000.00 they would sell less saws and still make a profit. My main point is by not allowing the saw to be discounted they may limit some people from the purchase, something that would not affect their bottom line. I know its all about the integrity of the name that counts. And what other saw companies did or didn't do is not relevant to this inquiry,i don't own the company so it's easy for me to criticize those that do. I just think that if i did i would want as many people to have it and still make the profit that SawStop justly deserves.
"Is this a growing trend" Not a growing trend at all - at least it is not as wide spread as some years ago before congress made it illegal and before loopholes were found to get around it, as I understand it. It simply protects the retailer to give him a fair return for his efforts and investment.
That word fair scares me is that like the Fairness Doctrine that Congress with their infinite wisdom is trying to impose on free speech in America.How does one determine what is fair is there a chart that i can use or should i call my senator comrade Hillary.
"fair share"
The word "fair" has different meanings. Perhaps I should have said "sizable." By all means, call Hillary. She has all the answers!
Would you want your woodworking to go for less at some retailers?I think the stable price reflects integrity of the company. I also know that employees of stores that sell Saw-Stop get a significant manufacturer discount on the table saw so they can use the saw and speak from experience when they recommend products. (I understand that Festool offers this too).
When someone purchases something that i make it becomes their property and what they do is their business. Are we talking about a machine or the hope diamond? The next time you buy a car i know you will pay what is on the sticker.
In some cases the relationship of the retailer to the manufacturer is that of agent, rather than reseller. It's not better or worse than any other relationship, just different.
Here in Ohio, for example, I can walk into any liquor store in the state and pay the same price for a bottle of Don Julio Añejo tequila*. That's because I'm buying the liquor from the State of Ohio; the liquor store is serving as the state's agent, and receives a commission from the sale.
-Steve
*Except in Cuyahoga County, which has a "stadium surcharge."
I guess in Ohio it's ok for the state to be a monopoly, are they also in charge of the drugs.
All states regulate liquor sales in one way or another. There are eighteen so-called "control states" in which the state itself is the sole distributor of liquor (Ohio, obviously, is one of those states).
This situation is the direct result of the 21st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (the one that ended Prohibition).
-Steve
<<When someone purchases something that i make it becomes their property and what they do is their business>>That's true, but manufacturers are free to choose the dealers that represent them based on their willingness to sell at MSRP. Manufacturers seeking to position their products as high-end often take this approach. With products like these, you may pay full boat up front, but your purchase will often retain its value better than others. Of course if you plan to own the product until you die, this is not so important. I'm ashamed to say that when I bought the Hope Diamond, I probably paid way too much.
When a drug company finds a cure for cancer, i wonder how many people would be content with a no discount policy. Would you defend that decision to?
"When a drug company finds a cure for cancer, i wonder how many people would be content with a no discount policy."
Ever heard the expression, "Hoisted by your own petard?"
The "hypothetical" situation that you're describing is exactly what drug companies do right now.
-Steve
<<i wonder how many people would be content with a no discount policy??woodenhead,Are you saying that you have a right to discounted pricing on the products you purchase?The way I look at it, a manufacturer can either set an MSRP with a no discount policy, or let the market decide what their products are worth -- their call, not yours. What you purchase is your call, not theirs.It's easy to beat on the pharmaceutical companies, especially in light of recent drug recalls, but they put a TON of money into R&D developing a new drug and have a few short years to make it back in sales before the generic companies can cash in on all their work to make and sell their own brand of the drug at a lower price. It's a tough business -- not one I'd want to be in. Mike
You know, I'd love to get a deal on a fabulous piece of machinery like the Saw-stop for a discount too - I just don't have an issue with them holding the price. I imagine that it makes it much easier on the smaller stores to have the level playing field too.Maybe there is a scratch and dent or a demo model you can get your hands on.
"Maybe there is a scratch and dent or a demo model you can get your hands on."Scratch and dent - for this crowd? You must be joking.
Scratch and dent - for this crowd?Gee I'm the inventor of Scratch and dent in my shop! Where can I get one?
I'm a little late to this thread but here's review I wrote to a guy that asked about my Sawstop off of one of my ebay auctions.
Hope this helps a little."Let me start by stating the reason for the Saw Stop. In many years of hobby woodworking I have had two accidents with the table saw. Neither one very serious but the second one was two finger tips of my left hand. They are intact but the nerve damage prevents my form playing the guitar. It will take a long time before I can pick it up again. At that point my wife said “YOU ARE GETTING A SAW STOP, end of story”.
I started saving up.
I changed jobs about three months after the accident and sold a good chunk of leave back to my old company. Bam…the Saw Stop money was in hand.
Now on to the saw itself. Note: I do not work for Saw Stop nor am I taking any compensation from them.You buy this saw ala-carte meaning you buy it with the motor of your choice, their fence or no fence, etc…
I bought the mine with the 3hp 220v 20 a motor (208-250V) and their 36” T-Glide fence. The fence is very much like a Biesemeyer but the lock is far better. I also bought the dado cartridge, a spare 10” blade cartage (guaranteeing I’ll never set the thing off ;^P ) their dado insert, a 0 clearance insert, 36” extension table and a mobile base. I also had to pay shipping from Sawstop to the dealer, $400, and then delivery to my house, $175.
It doesn’t come with a power cord and plug so a trip to the home center is in order to get those. The wiring instructions are very good.Let’s remove the safety feature and just talk about the saw itself.
This has to be one of the most well thought out and well engineered table saws available. The construction and machining is first rate. The fit and finish is very fine. The cabinet is powder coated and that will last forever. It is a very well built and rugged saw.The saw was dead on right out of the box and that box was a wooden pallet/shipping crate. The left wing was already attached and I had to mount the right one. It is dead flat and didn’t require and mallet work to get a “slightly warped casting” in place. The casting is damn near perfect.
The hand wheels are effortless.
The fence was a breeze to install, very easy to set up and dead on.
The insert on this saw is more that twice the size of any other saw on the market making it far easier to get you hands down to the arbor. The guard and riving knife can be removed and installed in seconds due to the very well thought out one lever mounting system.
The guard is one you will like to keep in place instead of throwing it in a drawer and forgetting about it.
The back of the arbor has flats for the two supplied wrenches. So instead of locking the blade with a piece of wood it’s a two wrench process. You never need to touch the blade to loosen the arbor nut. Due to the size of the insert opening you can get a good purchase on the nut with your hand and not loose it in the saw.
To me those features alone make this saw a joy to use.
Now on to the safety.
Yes we all know it will stop the blade and save your fingers/hand from a disaster (in about 10ms).
The other side of the safety is the switch and lock. There is a master switch on switch housing that powers the saw and runs a diagnostic. All the sensors and the trigger are in the cartridge. Once the master is on the diagnostic is done, about 10 seconds, you’re ready to cut wood.
In order to turn the saw on you most PULL the paddle switch out. It’s located right in front of your left thigh. After you make a cut it’s a simple matter of moving you left leg forward and tapping it off.
There is also a master power switch that can be lacked preventing anyone from running the saw. Another level of safety.
The cartridge can be over ridden for cutting wet wood or conductive materials by turning a key switch on the right side of the switch housing as you turn on the power switch. It only overrides the system for the time the motor is running. Once you turn the motor off the system resets to safe mod.The fist piece of wood I ran through the saw was a piece of 5/4 hard maple and the saw didn’t even know the wood was there. A hot knife through soft butter. The cut was clean, smooth and no burning. The blade is a 40 tooth Freud combo that has a lot of miles on it.
I have not been disappointed with this saw at all. No matter what I run though it, it just keeps on truck’in with no protest.
The dusk collection is very good. There’s a scoop around the bottom of the blade the leads to a 4” dust port. If I don’t turn on my dust collector the saw will start to inflate the bags. Let’s face it this is not a cheap saw. You’re not getting in the door for less than 3900 bucks.
But what price the loss of a finger…or several…or part of your hand.On a less expensive note they are coming to market with their contractor style saw later this year and they are hoping to hit the $1700 price point with it."Kevin
Please it's Comrade Hillary, the fifth column is alive and well in America.
Click here for John White's opinion on the SawStop (until recently, he was the manager of the FWW shop and used one alongside other saws in the shop).
I just had a conversation with a fabrication store manager and they replaced all twenty seven of their regions Unisaws with SawStops. They paid retail. After consulting with their insurance company their policy savings ended up paying for the equipment.
Some of the materials their using (not wood) are being sensed by the breaks software. SawStop is working with them very closely to redefine parameters within the software for this particular application. While this level of innovation and service has little to do with the home hobbiest it does cost money. While SawStop has been in the field for some time now it's still being refined and the cost of this refinement is expensive. IMO the equipment is a bargain at twice the price.
If your looking for a bargain try and find one used or buy a product from any of the tool manufactures associations companies who's combined greed passed on this technology and its obvious pitfalls. You might even find one of their new models with a riving knife.
Four days after one of these saws was installed one of the employes had a table saw accident and was back to work within fifteen minutes with a band aid on his ring finger.
Vic
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