Hello,
This weekend I cut some 1/4″ plywood. It was the first time I cut some plywood. I’m just getting to know my powertools. I needed to replace the plywood part of my table saw crosscut sled. I got it used and the kerf had been made by another saw, in the wrong place for mine and too wide.
Anyway…I ripped a piece of plywood to width on the bandsaw, installed it in the sled and then cut a kerf through it with the table saw. In both cases, the underside of the plywood was all splintery all along the cut. no too concened about the bandsaw as I don’t think I will be using it much to cut plywood! For the TS, what would be the probable cause of the splintering? My doing, feed rate, or would it be the blade that’s not adapted?
I am using a brand new TS350 from Delta with the blade that came with it. It’s a 36-tooth ATB blade that is stated for “all types of wood” If it’s the blade…that’s my main question…what would be a good all-purpose replacement blade? Looking for something non-specialized that I can use most of the time, with reasonable quality of cut. Should I look for a combination blade? I have seen some Freud 5-tooth combo blades at good prices, but I’ve read that a 40-tooth blade would be better…
Thanks!
Replies
I get very good results with my Forrest Woodworker 2 and a zero clearance insert.
There are blades specifically made for plywood, but I have no experience with them - I'm sure others will weigh in.
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral.
Frank Lloyd Wright
I've read about that blade, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something in the $50-$60 range at the max...but I guess I should put that one on my list.
Check out this ad here @ FWW classifieds section
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-classifieds/messages?msg=1398.1
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 6/16/2006 10:50 am by Rennie
Thanks for the links. It turns out that Sears has the LU84 for less than Amazon, and that's just very convenient for father's day. That said, I'd love to hear some thoughts on whether a ful-kerf will work right of the bat on my TS with the stock splitter or not. Any owner of that saw? I emailed Delta but I am not expecting an answer soon...thy dropped the ball on the fact that they haven't included the right stand for the saw (which seems to be not the first occurence of that problem).
"...and that's just very convenient for father's day." ROFL!! Go for it!!! What timing....
I'd be surprised if you had any problem with your splitter. Can't remember, do we know which saw you have? Mine is on an old (old) Jet Contractor's saw, and was originally used with the stock splitter, undoubtedly "full kerf." I now use it with a thin kerf Merlin splitter. Neither gives any problems. What really doesn't work is when you have a thin-kerf blade and a full-kerf splitter.
It should be easy to find out if your blade is thin-kerf. Google on the stock number stamped on the blade and find the specs for it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/16/2006 12:20 pm by forestgirl
For that, I'd have to take the blade out, hahaha! I wanted to but just didn't have the time yet (been busy trying to regrind a plane iron with sandpaper! what a mess, but success in the eend). I turned the blade manually yesterday to find a model number but couldn't see anything.The saw is a TS350. It seems like a nice one. On paper, it's the best I found for the money, with all cast-iron stuff and a fence that I think it's pretty nice. I don't like the fact that I have no idea (yet) on how to change the alignment of the blade to the miter slot (somehow the blade still rubs inside the kerf that it put in the crosscut sled), if needed, and I didn't see a way to adjust the 90/45 degree stops as indicated in the manual, unless I cut through the sheet metal box...but the saw ended up at less than $300.Back to the blade thing...with a ruler, I guess-measured the splitter to just a hair above 1/16" thick. Same as the blade plate.
Just so your "want list" doesn't get too close to empty....you can get an accurate electronic caliper at Harbor Freight for $15.99. I've had mine for 2 years, it is accurate and consistent, if not as smooth as a more expensive set. Actually paid $19.99 then, so they're even better now, LOL!! It's one thing that I wish I'd bought right at the beginning. I use them alot!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
oh my want list is huge! I also want one of those nifty electronic planer gauges. Thanks for the tip on the caliper. I wanted the $25 "woodworker's" caliper from Woodcraft but the sale is over and now it's twice the cost, and I was looking for another one. Apparently they have a fractional one for $19.
Hmmmm, a $19 fractional caliper would be nice, but I'm not seein' it on their website. $49, yes, but not (now) $19.
I find myself using millimeters alot when I plane. Easier on the brain, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's right here:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92437Unfortunately they did not have it at the local store.
Ah hah! I interpreted the "they" wrong -- thought you mean Woodcraft. Thanks.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The Forrest is a good blade- if you are planning on cutting a lot of ply, it's a worthy investment- the cost of the blade will pay for itself in savings on wood stock.If you are not planning on cutting a lot of ply (and you will probably cut more than you think)- you could get a less expensive Freud or similar blade.The key to your "tear out" is the zero clearance insert. When the blade goes spinning through the wood, it tears the fibers it crosscuts. As these fibers tear, the break apart from the neighboring fibers, causing tear out (the same thing happens when wou plough a dado with a router and get to the end of the cut). If the TS blade is tightly housed so that the insert nearly abuts it on either side, the fibers are supported and they won't tear out as much. Zero clearance inserts are usually made by buying a solid plastic insert and lowering the blade below it. Turn on the saw and gardually raise the blade until it cuts through the insert. Now do your plywood cut. You can achieve a similar result by placing a scrap piece of ply underneath the one that you are cutting. When I cut large sheets with my Festool (hand) circular saw, I put the stock on top of a 3" sheet of styrofoam insulation for the same result.Good luck,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I too have GREAT experiences using the Forrest Woodworker II 10" 1/8" kerf blade... it just cuts soooo smoooooth, it's so nice...They are not cheap... they were briefly on sale a few days ago...
... I even added them to my website...
http://woodworkstuff.net/WoodAd.htmlPretty hard to beat Amazon's prices, on sale or not...In the long run, you will LOVE it...================BTW, here is another page where you can learn more about crosscut sleds... look toward the bottom...
http://woodworkstuff.net/woodidxjigs.html
Edited 6/18/2006 8:56 pm ET by Little Joe
I'll ditto the WWII form
I'll ditto the WWII form Forrest. It was reccomended here when I bought my TS back 5 years ago and it performs flawlessly. I'm sure there are others, but I've had such good luck i'll stick with them.
Chuck,
Rennie is right about the forrest WWII blade. Cuts plywood like it's nobody's business. I build kitchen cabinets for a living and I keep 2 on hand. They seem to be the best all purpose blade I've come across. They are not cheap, however and run in the neighborhood of $100 each, but in my opinion it is well worth it for the time you save not having to change from a rip blade, to a crosscut blade or plywood blade. There are also plywood blades with a zillion teeth, usually available in the home depot. They are steel, not carbide, therefore will not last as long, but are fairly cheap (about $20-30). If you have a small project or won't be cutting plywood often, you may want to go that route. Just be aware you will not get an extremely long life out of them, and I don't think anyone sharpens them, because of the number of teeth.
Good luck,
Lee
That stock blade is relatively poor compared to others mentioned. I think you'd do better with a good 40T general purpose blade than a 50T combo, but a good quality version of either will work well. The Forrest 40T TK would be an excellent choice but is pricey (~$80). If you don't want to spend that much, I'd consider a Freud LU86R010 (~$40) or even a 60T LU88R010 (~$50). Note that Freud makes alot of blades and several quality levels...I'd stick with their Industrial series. Soem of DeWalt's blades are very good to, but again, they make multiple quality levels so stick with their "Woodworking" series. Tenryu supposedly makes some great blades....try a call to Holbren.com for selection...I'm eager to try some of these. Check Ebay for good deals too. Stick with good quality and you'll get a great blade that you'll notice a difference with.
With your saw you'll really want to stick with a thin kerf to avoid overtaxing the motor. To minimize tearout, try a zero clearance insert. You might also try scoring the bottom prior to cutting.
http://www.epinions.com/content_226312687236
http://www.epinions.com/content_227985493636
http://www.epinions.com/content_145552674436
Edited 6/16/2006 11:13 am ET by Scotty_
I appreciate all the feedback, thanks. Will look into all these blades. The woodworker 2 seems like a good solution, just a bit too pricey for me right now. About the thin kerf blade, I like the idea of it, but how would that work with the stock splitter? Now that I have the crosscut sled with just a slot for my blade, I can try cutting some plywood with it and see if the zero clearance of the sled will help with the splintering. Did think of that and didn't have much time to experiment.
You'll want the splitter to match the blade kerf, but I'd be surprised if the stock blade wasn't a TK....3/32". A full kerf = 1/8".
oh that's intereting. I'll have to look at that thickness tonight...
If you're going to try and get by with one blade for all things, you'll have to spend a chunk of change to come close to decent results. The Forrest WW2 or the Freud competitor, the F410. Freud makes excellent blades, BTW.
I think you'll find that you're much better off having a couple/three blades rather than expecting one blade to do everything. A combination blade, a ripping blade and a crosscut/plywood blade would be the minimum, IMHO. If you really can't afford to go big $$-wise, consider getting the Diablo versions of the Freud blades. Right now, at Amazon, you can get a 3-blade package of Diablo blades that has a combination, cut-off (doubles as plywood blade) and a rip blade for $125 (click here).
I have the Freud LU84 as my combination blade, and it is an excellent blade. This statement can be verified by the folks who observed results at last year's Knots Fest in Seattle. It would cost you about $65 at Amazon (click). I think my Diablo rip blade cost around $25-$30. For most purposes, your combo blade will do the job in crosscutting, but a quality cut-off blade such as the one in the Diablo package will do a good job in plywood.
As mentioned in earlier posts, a zero-clearance insert makes a huge difference in the quality of your plywood cuts.
There will be those who insist you need a $130 to live properly as a woodworker. Then there are a few, like me, who understand that not everyone can spend that kind of money on one blade, and also believe one blade does not do it all.
PS: Be careful with that 1/4" ply. It can get squirrely on a table saw.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/15/2006 12:31 pm by forestgirl
I was tearing up ply with my Forrest Woodworker II. At 40T it's just not optimized for plywood (thought it's excellent with solid wood, leaves a great edge). I added a 100T (I think) Amana (I think) plywood blade, pricey but VERY excellent edges, looks like they've been planed, and no splintering whatsoever. I did not use a ZCI, just a standard throat plate, and did not use a "backer board." Now that blade was about $160, kicks butt but expensive (all those carbide teeth cost $$).
I also bought a $8 7 1/4" plywood blade to use in my circular saw. It was head and shoulders better than the TS-mounted Forrest Woodworker II, but not quite as good as the Amana. Splintering was nearly eliminated, but the edge wasn't as nice and smooth (this may have more to do with my lack of ability with a CS, compared with the easy steady feed I get on the TS).
So if you've got just a little stock to take apart, consider a circ saw ply blade, I think you'll find it quite effective. If you're going to process sheet after sheet, you may find a high-quality ply blade for your TS a good investment. I'd bet money one of those cheaper steel ones someone else mentioned would also be better than a general purpose blade, and probably also well within your budget.
I agree with the previous posters who said that you'll do better with purpose-chosen blades, not trying to solve everything with one blade. Even the very expensive "do everything" blades can't do some jobs as well as inexpensive purpose-made blades.
Thanks for the added info. After considering all this, looking at the prices and all, I think I will go for a Freud LU84, which should do everything I need, and then go from there. Budget is tight. Already too much money spent on tools...But now the question of the blade thickness is bugging me. I did check the current blade, and frankly, it looks like it cuts a 1/8 kerf but without a caliper on hand, it's a bit difficult to tell how thick the kerf is exactly. Actually, the blade itself seems to be about 1/16 but once again, measuring with just a ruler is not very precise. The thickness of the splitter seems to be the same. On Delta's website, going through the blades, it doesn't look like they have anything less than 1/8 on 10" blades.Will have have any problem between the Freud blade and the splitter? The splitter on that TS mounts onto a long bold coming out of the back of the saw. Doesn't look like there are any aftermarket replacements for that, but I haven't looked too hard. Reading more on the table saw, it doesn't seem that people have any trouble installing new 1/8 blades in it.Looks like that blade is going to be my father's day gift though...Putting a plywood blade on the circular saw sounds like a very good and inexpensive idea as well...
If you're going with full kerf, Ebay currently has a Freud F410 40T for $55 delivered. This is their best blade and is the one designed like the Forrest.
http://cgi.ebay.com/FREUD-GENERAL-ALL-PURPOSE-SAW-BLADE-10-40-TEETH_W0QQitemZ7627723267QQihZ017QQcategoryZ20797QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemThere's also an LU84 being auctioned ( currently @ <$40 delivered):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Freud-LU84R011-10-x-50-Tooth-Combination-Blade_W0QQitemZ7628427676QQihZ017QQcategoryZ109323QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I just cut a couple of sheets of 5/8 subfloor stuff with a standard Delta, comes-with-the-saw blade and a zero clearance throat plate. The blade is not newly sharpened; the cuts were clean and splinter free.
It's your crosscut sled that's causing the majority of the splintering and tear-out you're experiencing because the plywood you're cutting is suspended above the table with no support beneath it.
Until you replace the deck of your crosscut sled (or, as others have suggested, cut your plywood without the sled using a zero-clearance throat plate), the shredding will continue - even of you opt for the best blade money can buy.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I did not use the crosscut sled to cut anything yet. The crosscut sled *is* the plywood that I was cutting. That piece of plywood is now a zero clearance plate. I'm not sure I get the "suspended without support" part though...
Calll Forrest and see if they'll sell it to you for the WoodWorking Show price. They have a new model out now and the WWII may be discontinued, and they were selling it for about $70. Yes, it's $10-$20 more than you really want to spend but you'll save money by not wasting materials. Mine is about 12 years old and has been sharpened once. If you keep it clean, don't cut metal and make sure the saw is adjusted well so it doesn't bind, it'll last a long time. Personally, I doubt the blade that came with the saw is really flat. I have an Oldham 40T that is a decent blade but I had to exchange three of them before I got a flat one.
Another way to go is by calling a sharpening service and ask for their recommendations. They see all kinds of blades and have their own opinions. Who knows- they may even have something that was unclaimed after sharpening.
Too late, too late! today was father's day, as we all know, and I got my red blade :) I like it :) Although, I need to stop using the aluminum sled and make my own. Impossible to get rid of the side-to-side play and I couldn't do a totally square crosscut with it. Worked like a charm with just the miter gauge.Now on to making a non-standard zero clearance insert for that table-saw. some day I will be doen tweaking, aligning, squaring, and I can start making things...Thanks again for all the recommandations!
Google up the Freud www and read their info on saw blades. There is too much good info to put it all down here.
Just wondering outloud... why are these ancient posts appearing?
Because someone has a new question and uses an old thread title. a bug in the system puts up the old thread and deletes the new one. A pain in the ass for the poster for sure, who also may not realize that it has happened yet and wonder why no one wants to answer their question.
Ah, it all makes sense now, Jhon.
has this problem been added to the " Fixed Bugs" ?
I had posted that deleted question.
SA
I added it to the "bug tracking" thread.
Sheesh, didn't realize how
Sheesh, didn't realize how old this thread is.
I was afraid that maybe you had bailed out. Glad to see you are still here.
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