Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 12, 2007 06:52pm | #1

   "are either of these blades a good performance/ value when compared to the forrest WWII"  I've been using the Freud 50-tooth combo (LU84M) for a few years now, and consider it an excellent "value."  The 20 or so woodworkers who watched it perform at Tom's first Knots Fest in 2005 were in strong agreement.  Strangely enough, none of the Forrest users brought their blade to the contest, but all seemed quite impressed with the cut quality of the LU84, both cross-cuts and rips (ready-to-glue!).  I've seen no reason to fork out the extra money for the Forrest.

   The Fusion is creating quite a splash, with incredibly nice cutting performance, but I would lean toward the LU84 for all-purpose cutting.  I just think it'll stand up to more tasks.  The Fusion has a "side-grind" which I'd assume is similar to that on their Ultimate Cut-off blade, it polishes as it cuts.  I consider this overkill for the everyday cuts I make with the LU84.

   Whatever you get (and I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with the FWWII), be sure you have a good 24-tooth rip blade available to take the bulk of the ripping tasks.  You can get a Freud Diablo at Home Depot for less than $30 I think. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   
   

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   Edited 6/12/2007 12:01 pm by forestgirl

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 13, 2007 07:32am | #4

   Thanks- I'll give that one serious consideration.
   Do you buy your blades locally, or do you mail order?How much should I expect to pay for that blade? (amazon had the blade listed for $60... but one reviewer said that they only paid $40)
   BTW the reviews on amazon were glowing... nearly five stars. Strangely enough, the more expensive Premier Fusion blade got significantly worse reviews from users on amazon. ----I don't necessarily like to support amazon when I can buy from a more specialized woodworking supplier... but it's sure a good place to check customer reviews quickly. Although there tend to be more carpenters and less experienced users providing reviews.If money were not a factor, I would buy the forrest or the ridge carbide because they are smaller companies and aim to a more specific woodworking customer... but a good value is always a plus, and $100 for one saw blade is a lot to swallow. I'll take your advice and also get a nice ripping blade. I've recently gotten several clients wanting wooden frames for paintings and prints (as a recent art-school graduate my friends and teachers quickly noticed the nice frames I made for my own work and now request my services) A good clean cutting rip blade would save a lot of time
   planing and cleaning up the frames. Since I'm still using the saw in my school's woodshop, a sharp blade of my own is a must-have.
   Then I just need to make enough frames and furniture to buy my own TS...-vincent

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 13, 2007 07:06pm | #8

   I think I bought my LU84 at one of the woodworking shows, probably paid around $70 for it?  I bought the non-coated version.  Personal preference re: the red coating.  Last fall I think it was, Amazon had a big sale on that blade.  Would have gotten another one if other things weren't pressing, just to have one while the other's out being sharpened.

   Be careful about the Amazon reviews.  A number of people on this forum and another one I frequent have discovered the problem(s) they were having with the Fusion were due to (a) an ill-tuned saw or (b) definciencies in their feed technique.  With a blade that has that side-grind polishing feature, everything has to be perfect, or nearly so, or you'll get burning. 

   Just re-checked at Amazon.  There are only 4 reviews, and one of them says "great blade" but he gave it only 1 star because the blade is "cheaper at Home Depot."  Go figure.

   Personally, I feel the Fusion blade leans more toward being a specialty blade, irregardless of what Freud calls it.  Or, a "special" general purpose blade, LOL.  Whatever.  It's possible it's intended to replace the F40, as speculated somewhere else.  I'm not patient enough to check that out on the Freud website, though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Knotscott | Jun 13, 2007 10:07pm | #9

   Hi FG - BTW, that Tenryu RS25550 combo for $36 from Holbren is very similar to your LU84 if you're looking for a high quality reasonably priced backup. I believe the deal code is "FD20".http://www.holbren.com/product.php?productid=125&cat=0&page=1

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 13, 2007 11:10pm | #10

   Oooohhhh, wow, thanks!  I've got birthday money hovering, might use some on that!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   Knotscott | Jun 12, 2007 07:41pm | #2

   I've tried a few highend examples of each type of these blades and typically prefer the 40T, but in all honesty, they've all been more than adequate and all provided great versatility and glueline cuts. I could live with anyone of them.

   Those that I've tried are the Forrest WWII (TK), Ridge Carbide TS2000 (TK), DW7657, Freud LU86, Tenryu Gold Medal, Tenryu RS25540, and Leitz 40T TK - all 40 toofers...those with 50T were the LU84, Infinity Combomax (TK), Tenryu RS25550, and the Leitz 50T TK. These are all considered upper tier by most folk's standards, but I've also tried a few others of lesser quality (PC Razor, Vermont American, Delta Sidekick, Oldham Industrial). It's not really possible to say that all the 40T blades outperformed all the 50T blades are vice-versa....each has pros and cons. In my unscientific tests, the TS2000, WWII, GM, Combomax, DW7657, and RS25550 tended to make the cleanest cuts for me (in roughly that order) in my saw in the types of cuts I tend to make...mostly rips and crosscuts in hardwoods, but also some ply, and man-made sheet goods. The cut on the others tended to be slightly rougher with more notable swirl marks on the edge, but as I stated, any one of them performed well enough to stay put if I had no other choices, and all provided a glueable edge. Keep in mind that in most cases, my findings are based on a sampling of one blade...some variability may exist from blade to blade even when using the same model. (I have tried 3 WWIIs and found them to be very consistent, but again, 3 samples is not necessarily indicative of the results that 40 samples would yield).

   The difference in performance between my favorite and least favorite is quite small, and boils down to as much "subjective stuff" as it does actual cutting performance. I guess I'd quantify "subjective stuff" as things like feedrate, sound, feel, look, price, kerf choices, country of origin, etc. The LU86, LU84, Leitz 40 & 50, and the RS25540 were good performers that I picked up at real bargain prices...all were "good enough" but not quite at the level of the TS2000/WWII/GM crowd. The TK's offer a notibly faster feedrate on my saws than the full kerfs did. The two that performed best for me are both TK's (WWII/TS2000), and both happen to be made in the US and have a choice of kerf widths...those are reasonable considerations when choosing IMO. If my saw was a 3hp cab saw, I'd undoutedly choose full kerf even though I got great results from the TK's.

   The design objectives of a multipurpose blade in general have inherent compromises compared to a dedicated special task blade (fine crosscut/thick ripping/melamines/ply, etc), but they offer very acceptable results on the whole in a wide range of materials and cuts, so you can use one blade for most tasks with good results. The 50T combos tend to use an ATB/R grind, while most of the 40T general purp blades use an ATB grind, but the TS2000 offers a flat raker every 5th or 7th tooth (can't recall)....and Forrest now offers the WWII with a similar grind. The Infinity Combomax uses a combination of ATB teeth and a chamfered tooth in the middle of groupings of 5 teeth. All the 40T blades have a steeper hook angle than the 50T combos. Blades with the flat raker tend to leave a flatter bottom, but it's not absolutely "flat"...still has "bat ears".

   I haven't tried the new P410 Fusion...it's design deviates from the others with it's Hi-ATB tooth grind, which should result in a cleaner cut, though it may not rip as efficiently in thick material or may not stay sharp as long. I'm very intrigued by it and hope to try one some day...wish they'd offer a TK version. Another great blade not mentioned is the LU88 60T. It's listed as a crosscut blade but has a steep enough hook angle that it'll rip quite well to ~ 6/4" , which makes it very suitable for general purpose use...it's only available as a TK though.

   Lesser blades in general may cut well at first, but aren't likely to hold an edge for long. Go with the one that has the most appeal to you. Keep your eyes peeled for a good deal and enjoy (lot of FD sales going on!) ...you really can't go too wrong if you stick with top end quality and avoid the bargain basement stuff unless cutting junk wood.

   
   

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   Edited 6/12/2007 4:16 pm ET by Knotscott

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 13, 2007 07:44am | #5

   Thanks for all the good advice! I'll sift through your favorites and look for a good deal. There is nothing like an opinion based on experience, and it seems that you've tried quite a selection. You must use your table saw a LOT!Do you use a stabilizer for the TK blades? How much power does your saw have (what saw do you have) ?The saw I use is a 3hp. The saw I plan to buy for my own show in a few months is the Steel City basic table saw. They offer a 1 3/4 Hp, and then a 3hp for only $100 more. I think I'm going to wait until I can afford the 3hp model. I've also used a general int. contractors saw with 1.5 HP and the difference when I use the 3hp Rockwell/Delta is like night and day, even with a TK blade on the smaller saw. Out of curiosity, would you trade in one of those $100 blades for more HP?thanks again -vincent

1. 
   gwsaltspring | Jun 13, 2007 09:39am | #6

   I went through the same process a few month ago and KScott was kind enough to share a spread sheet that he had developed with most of the blades he had used. It was very helpful, if a bit expensive for me in the end. ;-)FG was also very helpful with my 12" blade purchases.I now have quite a selection of blades.The 40 tooth WWII is a mighty fine blade. I also use a 24 tooth Freud ripping blade and a FS cross cut blade for plywood (can't remember the # off the top of my head, 80 tooth blade I think) Oh and I picked up a Freud Glue line rip while I was at it.I then went on to pick up a Freud 12" 80 tooth Diablo and FS 12" 96 tooth for the big chop saw along with a couple of 8 1/4" Freud blades for the little Delta chop saw. I am happy with the 10" Makita bladeInitially even I thought it was excessive but there is something about having a sharp blade on the saw while one is out being sharpened.Now that I think about it I might just pick up another 24 tooth ripping blade for the portable TS. MDF is hard on the blades and I need to build some cabinets soon.If I can offer my POV I would spend the big bucks on the WWII and a 24" ripper for your TS. I think that will cover a lot of ground. I find that I spend most of my time ripping at the TS and do most of my cross cutting with one of the chop saws (12" CMS, 10" SCMS, 8 1/4"CMS)Good luck, I know it made my head hurt trying to decide what was the BEST route to go.Cheers Greg BTW I think it is a good idea to clean the blade if you think it is time for a sharpening, funny how much the pitch build up can affect the cut.

2. 
   Knotscott | Jun 13, 2007 01:17pm | #7

   Hi Vincent - My last 2 saws were a GI 50-185 2hp contractor saw, and now the Craftsman 22124 1-3/4hp hybrid that's very similar to the Steel City hybrid. 

   I haven't noticed any improvement from using stabilizers...the better quality blades don't seem to benefit from it. 

   Good alignment and blade selection can make a big difference in the percieved power, but the bigger saws are alot less sensitive to those factors.  I'd still want a good quality blade even if I had a 3hp saw, but I'd be far more prone to go with a full kerf.

   A word of caution about putting too much weight into Amazon reviews.  Some are helpful but I've noticed that their reviews tend to contradict other reviews and user comments more than most.  It's very easy use that system and there's very little screening criteria.  Some reviews blast Amazon instead of the product mentioned, and some just don't make alot of sense.....it seems an easy place for aggressive competitors to plant a negative review...not saying it happens, but the reviews contradict the common views on the forums frequently.  Epinions has some good insights, and I always put more weight in the views of folks on these forums.

   A couple of deals that I've spotted:

   - Infinity Combomax full kerf - $60

   - Holbren's offering 20% for FD (FD20 code)

   Tenryu RS25550 - $36 shipped

   Ridge Carbide TS2000 - $72 shipped

   Tenryu Gold Medal - $72 shipped

   - Lowes has the Delta 35-7657 (formerly the DeWalt DW7657) for $40.

    

    

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 14, 2007 02:14am | #11

   Thanks!I just bought the Ridge Carbide blade (thin kerf) from holbren. Free shipping AND 20% off is hard to beat. The RC site had that blade listed at $129 !I'm thinking that with a thin kerf, I'll be OK if I decide to opt for a small 1.75-2hp saw. I'll just make sure it's tuned up to perfection. I like the idea of wasting less wood... I was just worried about a performance difference between full/thin kerf. I look forward to getting my new blade-thanks everyone for the good advice.Now I just need to pick up a glue line rip 24T and I'll be ready for action.

1. 
   Knotscott | Jun 14, 2007 02:59am | #12

   The TS2000 is one slick blade...picture a WWII with teeth that are 35% thicker and honed to 1200 grit. Brian from Holbren is awesome too.There's a Leitz distributor on Woodnet.net who is offering clearance prices on a high quality German made 24T FTG TK ripper for ...you ready? ...$10 (get two and optimize the shipping). It's identical to the HO Schumacher & Sohn blade that sells for $46 (also made by Leitz). It's as good as any ripper I've tried and better than most. Tough deal to beat IMHO!
   http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3062816&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7The Freud LU87 and Infinity rippers should "cut the mustard" too.

   Edited 6/13/2007 8:01 pm ET by Knotscott

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 12, 2007 07:41pm | #3

   IMO, the 50 tooth Combo is a better all purpose blade. It is designed to do a little better and faster ripping than the 40 tooth blade. The 50 tooth has the larger gullet and a raker tooth which cleans out a rip kerf better and faster.

   The 40 tooth blades are designed to allow friction from the sides of the teeth to sort of burnish or smooth the cut. This means that they will cause more heat when ripping and may not be good for ripping thicker hardwood stock.

   As most woodworkers spend more time ripping, the 50 tooth tends to be a better blade to use. However, any stock over 1" is best ripped with a dedicated 24 tooth rip blade. No blade can be designed to be best for all applications.

   Howie.........