Would like to hear some opinions on table saw blades.
I use a 10″ cabinet saw, the most used tool in my shop. I also use a 12″ miter saw, mainly for cross cutting, short pieces from long boards.
So far, I have used only one blade on my table saw, being a 10″ 40T combination blade, of medium quality (Oldham Signature). I glue up panels directly from the table saw, with no glue line visibility and I get little tear out on cross cuts, using a lot of Walnut. So, the question is whether there will be much value in upgrading to 24T ripping and 80T cross cut blades, of high quality, probably twice the price each, compared to my current blade?
My 12″ miter saw, has the standard Dewalt blade it came with and does give quite a bit of tear out, I can see the value here of upgrading to probably something like a Forrest 80T. But then again, does it make sense to put a blade costing $150, on a miter saw valued $300?
Any experience out there will be appreciated.
Willie
Replies
Jellyrug, you're not gonna believe how many brands of saw blades there are -- there are pros on this board who can give you lots of advice (and have, in earlier threads). For my money, which is limited, Freud makes excellent blades. If you're satisfied with the ripping of the Oldham, why not just get a good crosscut blade to complement it?? You can always get a 24T blade later down the road, for the time you're ripping much thicker hardwood and the Oldham isn't quite up to the task. Or....just get a better combo blade, see if that doesn't help the crosscuts enough.
I have a Diablo (by Freud) 24T ripping blade, their Ultimate Cutoff Blade (way overkill, leaves a mirror finish), and one of their combo or general purpose blades. They are all excellent performers. If you wait until a woodworking show comes your way, you can get a good sale price. Otherwise, shop around on-line. Prices vary!
I've heard better reports on the DeWalt miter saw blade that you're giving. Do you have a zero-clearance plate beneath it? Well, anyway, same goes with the miter saws, you don't have to spend $150 to get a really good blade. I'd guess around $75 would do it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I use the standard DeWalt blade too. I have found that the secret to keeping tear-out to a minimum is a clean, sharp blade. I just had it sharpened ($20) and it cuts like new. I clean it between sharpenings with oven cleaner. No need to upgrade the blade for the type of work I'm doing on it: mostly cross cuts to ruff dimensions.
Hi,
I put Forrest's 40T Woodworker 2 blade on my awful Craftsman table saw. The blade cuts beautifully when ripping (chip free when cutting ply and melamine), and nearly controls splintering when cross cutting. Full disclosure- I run a Lee Valley blade stiffener, and I had the arbor assembly trued up at a local machine shop. The blade was around $100 with shipping, and I did a Google search to find the least expensive supplier.
My buddy has Forrest's WW1 on his Hitachi sliding miter saw; it makes exceptionally clean cuts, to the point where I sliced open my finger when grazing the chisel edge of a freshly cut miter. (Mitered cherry is a shop hazard?) The WW2 on his Powermatic 66 5 horse cuts like buttah.
Though I sound like a late night info-mercial for Forrest, I cannot imagine using any other blade. They are quite pricey, for sure, but I'm totally sold on the value. And no, I don't touch the edges of miters anymore. Once was enough.
Seth (in Fremont, CA)
Edited 6/3/2004 1:25 pm ET by hamelech
Thanks for all the advice from the forum.
I'm looking at the Forrest Duraline Hi-At, 10" 80T, at around $145, (made in the US)for cross cutting the precision stuff as well as my tenons, of which I do a lot. (normally get a little bit of tear out, when doing vertical cutting of the tenons.)
Only pain I'll have to suffer, is re-making all the templates for my cast iron tenon jig, as I had these neatly dialed in for a perfect fit with four different size mortise chisels. So, a new blade with a different thickness, presents a lot of work to tool up once again.
Willie
Clovis CA
Willie:
I've read many posts speaking highly of the FS Toolworks blades. You can get them at good prices at carbide.com. I'm awaiting my first shipment. You could get your cross-cit and rip blade for the same price as one Forrest blade.
Seth,
Just read your comment,
" I had the arbor assembly trued up at a local machine shop."
I have the 8" Forrest dado set and have to wrap Scotch tape around the arbor so the chippers and outside blades would all cut on the same plane. I have a Craftsman contractors saw similar to yours - I believe.
My question is - obviously - what did this cost you? In addition, all of the chipper blades will not fit on this arbor. It's too short! Max dado cut is 1/2 inch. Can you purchase longer 5/8 inch arbors?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Phillip
PhillipB (and all),
Sorry for the delayed response. Pardon the length of this loooong story....
I have a 10" Craftsman contractor tablesaw, which is about 4-5 years old. I picked it up for $300 from my buddy, who had bought it as his entry into woodworking. He upgraded to a Powermatic 66 5 horse (angels singing, heavenly light from above), and of course, didn't have need or space for two saws.
It didn't take long to find the nitpicks of the Craftsman. Two of its biggest sins: visible blade runout, and the trunnions would creep out of alignment, no matter how hard the bolts were tightened. Both contributed to rough cuts, burned wood, and lots of cussin'. I crafted a small sled from an Incra miter bar and particle/melamine, and attached a $25 dial indicator. This inexpensive Master Bar allowed me to align the blade via the trunnions, but highlighted the other problem of the wobbly arbor- I had to pick my zero spot for alignment, as the blade wobbled +/- .007" from arbitrary 0. Not a big deal for horseshoes or hand grenades, but not ideal for quality cuts on a suspicious table saw.
Short of dropping $$ for a better saw (I know some of you are thinking this!), I compared the cost of buying replacement parts from Sears and having a local machine shop 'face' the arbor. It took some doing to find a shop with a CNC lathe and a desire for such a small job, but the monetary results- $65 for an arbor and bearings from Sears (not including shipping), $70 for the shop to face the arbor. As they say in Vegas... push.
The benefit of the shop machining the existing assembly was that whatever inherent slop already in the bearings and arbor would be taken out. There was no guarantee that a new arbor and bearing from Sears would be any better than what was already there.
I had to practically disassemble the whole saw, and further break down the trunnion works to its most simple assembly to give to the machine shop. The machine shop went a step further to remove the E clip that held the arbor swing arm to the whole arbor assembly, and also removed the arbor's Woodruff key so the lathe chuck could securely grab the pulley side of the arbor.
The results? +/- .002" measured near the blade's carbide tips, for an aggregate score of .004" run out. Forrest claims its blades are true within .002" (let's assume +/- .001"), so my saw is double the potential run out of the blade I'm using. This is a realistic level of accuracy, and I can live with this. Yeah, I know: how much time did I spend futzing compared to running wood on a better table saw, but $70 spent is only $70 spent, especially on a saw I bought for a bargain.
I replaced all six trunnion bolts with quality bolts, and replaced the star-type lock washers with split ring lock washers. The two trunnion yokes that hold the arbor assembly are some sort of aluminum alloy, and I'm wondering if the soft metal will still creep under the lock washers. Also, there is still some inherent play in the way the yokes hold the arbor assembly, so the saw's engineering design cannot be solved out.
Whew! Do I talk or what? What a gas bag.
One other thing- I've become a believer in blade stiffeners. Some might differ, and that's fine. I use a thick beast from Lee Valley, which was designed with 8 set screws, and by running them in and out of the stiffener's body, allow you to 'tweak' the blade's alignment. I think that feature is unwarranted, since why would you buy a quality saw blade and then intentionally alter its runout to make up for an inferior arbor? By leaving the set screws well away from my Forrest WW2, the Lee Valley device acts only as a stiffener, and does improve the quality of all saw cuts than if I run the blade without it. Yes, it reduces the capacity to about 1 3/4" depth of cut, but I rarely have stock or cuts that are thicker/deeper than that.
Cheers,
Seth
I had always used cheaper blades until recently. I have not used a lot of brands so I cannot say one is better than the other. I will share my opinion of the one I have now. I do belive you get what you pay for. I recently bought all Forrest blades after doing a lot of research. I have to tell you, I have never seen a blade with that much carbide. I bought the 60T WWI for the RAS and 7.25 circular saw (for panel cutting). I got the WWII 40T for the TS. I got them from coastal tool and received a very good deal. They cut through wood like its butter. I did add the stabilizers and they purr when running with no whine that I had before. The cuts are ready to glue. I have had absolutely no blade marks from the rips or cross cuts. Made me a believer. I have not used them enough to get to the first sharpening yet, so I can't speak to that. I have heard that Forrest does an excellent job in that department as well. That's my two cents worth.
I use the Forrest II blade on my table saw and am very happy with it!
I'm very happy with the Freud combination blade I use, and also with Ridge Carbide Tool blades.
However, I have to tell a little personal story. Years ago this same subject was discussed and I said something like "I get such clean cuts with my tablesaw that the glue lines are invisible." Someone else, I believe Danford Jennings, said something like "You might think you're getting invisible glue lines, but you don't know really what invisible glue lines are until you've jointed the edge of a board with a handplane." I took his advice and guess what, he was right. So I'll pass along Danford's good advice here.
Good pass along Mark! Wonder if they will ever let Dano back or whether he'll want to come back. He always gave good advice. He was good with hand planes.
TDF
Freud has a great web site (see below) , you can choose the style of blade and application to see what blade is right for you. IMO I would recommend the Diablo contractor blades for your miter saw, it will give you a great cut , with a price of you can afford. Good luck on your purchase.
http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/sawblades/Premier_Series/html/Premier_Series_1.html
For glue ups, I use a glue line blade. It is a 40-60 (I'm not sure which) tooth ripping blade with every other tooth a triple chipper. Made by Amana, it makes a glass smooth surface that when used with a feather board and a splitter, makes a perfect glue line and requires no jointing.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Jellyrug,
After reading FWW's #120 table saw blade review back in October of '96 I ordered the Forrest 10 inch 40T WW II blade and the 12 inch WW I for my radial arm saw. I haven't looked back.
I could not believe that my table saw was actually running when I ran the table saw with the new Forrest. They are that quiet. And as someone already told you, they DO cut wood like 'buttah'. I have an ordinary Craftsman 10 inch contractors table saw so it's nothing fancy but the blade absolutely does make a difference.
Year before last I bought their 8" dado set. I will say that the dado set did show up the poor Craftsman arbor quality. I have to wrap scotch tape around the arbor to 'even' it out so the chippers would all cut in the same plane. This did work, but would be nice to have a 'real' 5/8" arbor. You get what you pay for. Could just be fair-wear-and-tear. Not sure.
Like anything else in life, you just have to experience it to believe it. To date I have not had the 10 incher re-sharpened and it is due - past due actually. I am waiting for a new WW II 30T to arrive before I send the 40T in to Forrest for re-sharpening.
You may want to get into the FWW archives and take a look at the review I just mentioned. BTW, the 30T WW II cuts better than the 40T per the '96 review. There is also another FWW table saw blade review in #155. Again, Forrest wins. In this case, best blade of the 14 tested. Check the reviews out for yourself.
I have absolutely no financial interest in Forrest, but I promise you this: purchase a Forrest blade and you will not regret it. You will definitely get what you pay for.
Good luck.
Phillip
JR -
I'm a little late jumping in here but ....
I've used Freud, Amana and Forest along with many of the OEM blades that come on the saws when you buy them. The Forest gives me the cleanest cuts when ripping (WWII on a Delta 10" Unisaw with the fence well tuned) However, in my particular case I have to admit that it's technique that rules.
If I take my time, set up feather boards and hold-downs and all sorts of other paraphanalia to help control the cut, I can get a really decent cut with any of the good carbide blades I have. Especially the Freud 'glue-line' rip blade. But for whatever reason, I can achieve the best results with the least effort, technique wise, with the Forest.
Disclaimer - I am a total woodworker wannabe and not a professional. Your mileage may, and quite possibly will vary.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I just read through this thread, and I don't have anything to add , but I thought I would put in another plug for Forrest.
There are a mountain of TS blade choices out there. Freud is the gorilla in the field -- they make hundreds of blades and back their efforts with enormous marketing muscle. I can't say for sure, but I suspect companies in the back areas of the pasture, such as Systematic and Amana, are actually making better blades than Freud. But they don't have the same marketing clout.
Forrest, on the other hand, has chosen a shrewd strategy -- they produce only a handful of blades and all of them are really good. If you're like me, and don't want to spend all kinds of time wandering around this mountain of blades, you can buy the Forrest WW II -- and be assured that you have a blade that is at least close to, if not at the top of the heap. This will cost you a $25-30 premium, and only you can decide if those $$ are worth the time and effort saved.
BTW, I came across a guy demonstrating an Oldham blade (a Wizard something or other) at a woodworking show, and bought one for $40. It was, I thought, every bit the equal of the Forrest -- right up to the time I hit a nail with it. I tried to find another, but none of the retail outlets available to me carried the exact same blade. So I bought another WW II instead.
Edited 6/4/2004 12:42 am ET by nikkiwood
I've said this before, and there are lots of threads in the archives, so I'll paraphrase.....Forrest is overhyped. FS Tools are my favorite; gonna try some Leitz also.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I don't know if "overhyped" is the right word -- but overpriced certainly.
It's just that it is tricky finding a blade that is the equal of a Forrest. If you have found a cheaper blade that produces the same quality cut, then by all means stick with it.
That's kind of the point I was trying to make re: the Oldham. I just couldn't find another.
I meant overhyped, based on their advertising (oooh ,C4 carbide.....all the industrial blade makers use the appropriate grade and quality of carbide.....and any good sharpener can sharpen them too) .....I own one, and my comparable FS Tools blades do as well or better, at a lot less money. I've seen the results of other Forrest blades, and I think they are a good blade, but they're only magic if you're comparing them to the junky blades that come with saws.....if you're used to industrial quality blades (FS Tools, Leitz, Gladu, Royce-Ayr etc.), you're less impressed.
What the heck, I'm going to bring in a Forrest, different model, and do a side by side comparison.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
When I googled FS tools saw blades, the prices I found were higher than Forrest.
go to carbide.com. for 10" saws they're much cheaper.
From my suppliers, they are around half the price of a Forrest, some may be a little more than half. In my area, also much cheaper than Freud.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Gee, I'm not pushing Forrest at all. It is just that they have made it easy to wind your way through a pile of blades and a lot of confusion. If you're willing to pay their premium price, they have one really good, all purpose blade that is better than most.
I'm all for the notion of buying a better, cheaper blade if you can find it. That's why I mentioned the Oldham blade; when I wanted to buy another, they made it too hard for me, and I ended up buying another (the WW II).
Also, part of the problem is that I have never heard of the industrial blades you mention -- Leitz, Gladu, Royce-Ayr. Whoever they are they are targeting, they managed to miss me.
I am just saying that Forrest has been shrewd and diabolically clever in devising their marketing and product strategy. They may not have the best blade in existence, but many common woodworkers carry that perception.
They are all very well known blades in industrial woodworking; they are marketed through the trade journals mostly, not the hobbyist mags, and are often sold through saw sharpeners or industrial supply houses. No huge marketing blitzes to drive up the price of the blade.Try any of the websites for the trade mags (Cabinetmaker, FDM, Cusrom Woodworking Business, Wood and Wood Products, etc)....they always have a product locater part of the website, and you can search in their for tooling, find a distributor in your area.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
The best industrial sharpening place around here (MN) sells "Super King" -- at least I think that's the brand. Ever hear of that one?
I bought one for the circular saw I use for breaking down sheets of ply, and it seemed to work well -- right up to the time I hit a nail when cutting off the bottom of an entry door.
Oooops.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
hey all, long time no type, but this conversation sang out to me. I must admit that I am a tool hound, love the tools, get everything that I can afford, and still want more. I have tried different ts blades over the years, the first one that I really thought that did a "good" job was the old Piranha blades. Now a days, I have in the shop, Freud, Delta, Forest, DeWalt, and others (told you I was a tool hound). But to be honest, some of the best pieces of furniture that I have ever seen built, are now what folks are buying up as "antiques". Those pieces rarely had ever seen a table saw! I guess the point I want to make is simply this, the craftsperson can make a much better joint then the saw (or saw blade). Will this keep me from buying the next best great tool or blade, no, but at least I know that when a joint ain't up to standards, it is my fault not the tool's. If you have a set budget, buy the best wood that you can and run the blade that you have. This is my humbly submitted suggestion.
Edited 6/8/2004 8:30 pm ET by B9
I use 28tpi, 40tpi, 60tpi and 80tpi Fruend blades on my trusty old Craftsman TS. For my money, the secret to getting good cuts is a well tuned saw (arbor square to the table and fence parallel to the blade), the linked drive belt (less vibration), a good zero clearance insert (I make my own), and using the right blade for the cut. I use the 28tpi or 40 tpi for rough cutting and save the 60 & 80 tpi blades for fine work.
Maybe I missed it in all the verbiage, but I have to wonder why no one has mentioned Ridge blades? They are at least as good as Forrest, less expensive than Forrest, and better (for my money) than Freud.
Regards,
Ron
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