This is a topic on which I have been meaning to post for some time, but your recent items on table saw accidents in the US and the award of damages to a user of a saw without a flesh detector has spurred me to do so.
I must say I was horrified, but not greatly surprised, by the number of accidents, particularly bearing in mind that the figures quoted do not include those occurring in the workplace. All of this leads me to consider possible reasons for these figures and to draw comparisons with the position over here in the UK.
The first thing to say is that the law is much stricter here; basically, in the workplace, working with an unguarded blade is illegal although what the amateur does in the privacy of his or her own workshop is of no concern to the law. Riving knives have also been a legal requirement here for many years. The result of these rules is that many of the operations routinely carried out with a t/s in the US are done here with a router or spindle moulder (shaper in the US?). The arbors fitted to table saws in Europe are short so that dado heads cannot be fitted as these are also illegal.
Does all this make a difference to the accident rate? I don’t know because I don’t have the statistics but I suspect it does.
Another factor which may be making a difference is the influence of woodworking magazines. FWW is the only US mag widely available over here and I have no idea whether or not it is representative in its approach to safety but must assume that it is. Although I have a subscription and have no intention of cancelling it, I have to say that I find its approach to safety shameful. It routinely shows photographs depicting unsafe practice (e.g fingers very close to exposed saw blades) and seems to try to get out of any responsibility by a small paragraph somewhere in the mag headed “about your safety”; not good enough in my view. It may be enough to keep the lawyers at bay, but that is hardly the point. It is worth noting that FWW articles are sometimes republished in UK mags, usually accompanied by a prominent health warning if they include t/s work.
I know a lot of you guys will be saying “but we have been doing this stuff for years and it is all perfectly safe with reasonable care and attention”. All perfectly true until you tread on that offcut that has fallen on the floor unnoticed and overbalance or are distracted by something unexpected happening. An exposed saw blade is inherently unsafe. Now I don’t wish to suggest that anyone should be prevented from doing something in the most convenient way in their own workshop if they recognise the risks and decide to accept them. But any inexperienced Joe can go out and buy a t/s and he is surely entitled to expect that the magazines he buys to help him on his way will take his safety seriously. Viewed from a UK perspective, it seems to me that FWW and, presumably, other US mags are failing in this.
I would be interested in the US perspective and also the views of FWW editors if they feel able to comment.
Jim
Replies
I don't know how many times this question has been asked but I can assure you it has been many.. many times Rainham. If you go to the Power Tools section of this forum on the home page look down the list for "Table Saw Safety" titled the same as your thread which basically just concluded about 8 days ago apparently to see the replies. I have to do a wax with rub-out shortly so I basically won't comment much further unless this particular thread "takes off".
My personal view can be explained much better with pictures and will save thousands of words which will personally interfere with a project near complete so... for now see the attached. Do I have a riving knife on my saw.. nope. My saw was made before the current U.S. law requiring them on new designs but.... I do take a few measures to compensate for my own safety (shield.. crown guard.. short fence.. spring-board leff.. push sticks.. etc) as I am in the shop daily making saw-dust..
Just what "I" do as in the Land of the Free well.. everyone has to freely decide how they personally approach safety. I've made those personal choices in my shop for 39 years now from necessity hopefully allowing common sense and awareness to over-rule "cause we been doing it this way for years". But... I do respect the right for others to do it as they see fit! It's the American way and I fully endorse "freedom of choice". ha... ha...
Regards from the southeastern U.S.A...
Jim, it's interesting and valuable to compare practices between geographic areas, even if the topic of table saw safety has been discussed previously (perhaps mostly from a U.S. perspective).
Personally, I'm probably in the "Table saws don't cause injuries, people cause injuries" camp. That is to say, I feel that knowing how to use a tool safely is a personal responsibility, and an area that government has no business treading on, except to the extent that a particular design or choice of materials would be doomed to frequent failure. From my perspective, governments and the courts have never done a good job of regulating human behavior, and their attempts to do so usually result in more questions than answers. But, that's more of a political issue than a woodworking issue.
I do agree, however, that U.S. magazines often run photos that display inherently bad and/or unsafe practices. Often, the reason (excuse?) is to show certain details more clearly. But, that could be easily overcome by better, more creative photography. Casual (inattentive?) readers shouldn't be left with misleading impressions from just viewing the images, and not reading the accompanying text.
Photographing safe work habits
Ralph,
I use the argument that guns don't kill people, people kill people but I never thought of applying that to power tools. Now I will.
I think a riving knife would be a good addition to any saw, but as far as guards are concerned, if the wood can get in there so can your fingers. I guess I'm saying that safety should be taken so far as to "protect" against those things that can't be controlled, for instance I wear a face shield, safety glasses, dust mask and hearing protectors, because I can't help but to hear and breathe and I know chips will fly at my face. Along the same line, I can't say when a piece of stock will have internal tension and pinch the kerf, but I can keep my fingers away from the blade, and if I don't it's not the tools fault. If my saw were fitted with a flesh sensor, I wouldn't trust it any more than I do the safety on a gun
How, can better or more creative photography show safe working habits, while still providing a clear view of techniques? I mean this as a serious question, because photography and how it relates to woodworking is subject that pretty much consumes my days.
Thanks
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
"How, can better or more
"How, can better or more creative photography show safe working habits, while still providing a clear view of techniques? I mean this as a serious question . . . "
First, the photographer either needs to be a safe-working woodworker, or familiar enough with the craft to know what to show. When I ran a UNIX magazine, an art director wanted to use a photo of a Mac keyboard in an illustration. He ended up being fired for cluelessness.
Next, the (woodworking-familiar) photographer needs to actually think about the images.they are producing. If the appropriate safety practice obscures something important to illustrate, for example, do one image with the safety element in place, and another with the machine turned off and the operator's hands not in the image. Then, simply merge the two images creatively in Photoshop or whatever editor is being used. Or, do a second photo showing the critical relationships between blade, bit, or whatever and the stock. The photo shoot should be a collaboration between the photographer and the author or editor, so the images achieve the objectives of the article text.
Alternatively, the woodworking magazines can hire you or me to take all their photos. ;-)
I don't know what the regulations are in Europe but we have very strict standards for industry in the U.S.A. OSHA sets the standards and enforces them in the workplace. The standards not only specify blade guarding but many other things. Compliance also requires on going safety training.
The problem with saw accidents isn't in industry, although they do occur. Table saws are very common for ordinary folks to own. Many of these people have not had safety training, some choose to ignore it and remove guards and other safety devices. Many fail to provide adequate support for their material and do operations that they shouldn't be doing. The majority of accidents are caused by putting fingers in a spinning blade, you have to break a few safety rules to do that. Some never bother to read and follow the owners manual. Things like kickback are the result of doing something incorrectly.
Magazines and TV shows don't get into safety specifics, whether they are afraid of litigation or just don't know. I''m a former teacher and tried to buy safety videos to augment my training. Many of the films turned out to be good examples of what not to do. If you want to cringe, go to Youtube and watch some of those folks. The big problem is finding competant information. Take a look at The Power Tool Safety Institute and open the info on table saws. They show a picture with feather boards mounted incorrectly on an unguarded saw, no way to use a push stick and with a stop attached to the back of the table??!! If you can't get proper training from an Institute whose objective is safety training, where do you go? That's the real problem.
If you Europeans are so advanced with safety, how about directing us to those sources of training. Do you have to take a class before purchasing a table saw? If you want to learn about the proper operation of a saw, where do you go? If you are going to judge us, lets see what you have to offer besides some gizmos that don't protect against improper use, poor technique, lack of knowledge or bad judgment.
Hi Rainham, and welcome to the forum. Here in the U.S. almost any thing you purchase comes with a warning or instructions. All forms of power equipment are included in this, and come with safety warnings that range from, Death to Serious Injury can Result from Improper, or Unsafe Use. Strict guide lines are set by the Government, and OSHA, (Occupational Safety And Health Administration), that cover the workplace, employers, as well as employees, from unsafe practices. The home shop is regulated by the OWNER!, and as such it is that individual, who must set his or her, OWN Safety guide lines to protect any and all persons in the area from harm!!. If a home owner chooses to jump in feet first, and ignore SAFETY, then the old adage applies, “ You Get What You Deserve “. Lastly YOUR SAFETY! IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!, NOT the responsibility of OTHERS!. garyowen
Sorry Gary, but I think you miss the point. Sure, your safety is your responsibility; my last post makes it clear that I believe that. My point is that others also have a responsibilty. As you point out, makers meet that with instructions and warnings. I believe that mags who encourage annd explain the use of machines also have a responsibilty which I believe they are failing to meet. You will know as well as I do that instruction books are often read only as a last resort but people do go to magazines for help and guidance.
Jim
I think I get your point at this point Jim... your quote."I believe that mags who encourage annd explain the use of machines also have a responsibilty which I believe they are failing to meet"....
I also agree with that point. I learned this hobby before magazines.. books.. videos' and instant response on the inter-net was available. FWW mag came along shorty after I started but that was about it and the focus in those days was not on machine safety but methods and mechanics. The very first thing I learned in wood shop in High School in 1963 about TS safety was to Keep the Lane Clear. My instructor also taught the use of push sticks.. feather-boards and staying alert and insisted on gaurds. I just prepped about 1000 linear feet of walnut for my HS instructor as he owns a furniture store in my town and no longer has the machinery at home to do so.
Very few woodworking programs are available in schools anymore as computers are focused in lieu of hand skills. So.. the current crop of beginners do not have any formal training what-so-ever. So.. I whole-heartly agree it is the responsibility of Mags.. TV shows.. videos.. etc. who they rely on to CLEARLY state they are not using a gaurd.. etc. to provide a clear picture of what they are demonstrating which is why they claim they remove them. Whether that is totally true of not I cannot say?
And.. they should add statements that when attempting the practice that they demonstrated to Always use the guards.. etc. ;provided. That will avoid leading a new entry or beginner into thinking if the pro's do it that way it's OK for them to do so as that is what they saw done. They simply might not associate common machine operation safety as they are just not informed or have given any personal thought.
But.. once they are aware it becomes their responsibility to Practice Safety. If they choose not to after they are aware of Safety then their personal safety is in their own hands. I always use guards regardless of what I see in magazines.. it's just makes common sense. I used to push safety on forums in the forums with short fence.. crowns.. feathers.. etc. but I find that most (not all) have their own opinions on the matter and are going to do it how they see fit. So.. I simply cover my own *ss at this point with the numerous aids I usually build for myself in my shop.
At this point.. if someone wants to hang from a tight-wire over their TS with the blade spinning and rip stock... I might ask why but in the end they are adults and responsible for their own safety as I am mine. I simply utter a little prayer in my mind for them and move on to my next thoughts. ha.. ha....
But... your real question can better be answered by Magazine publiishers.. video makers.. etc. tjhat openly commit what you consider un-responsible and so do I for that matter. So.... until those that abuse the responsiblity respond you will probably still be in the dark as to why they do what they do.
Good luck finding the answer....
Regards...
Glad to see we are now on the same wavelength Sarge. I really do not think I can disagree with anything you say. I also agree with David's logic and that the amateur accident statistics are likely to be much worse than those for profwessionals.
I feel sure this forum must be monitored by someone at FWW so here is a challenge to FWW; have the courage to contribute and justify your mag's position if you can. If you cannot justify it, what are you going to do about it? FWW is in many ways a great mag but shamefully let down by its attitude to safey, or will it take a law suit to bring about a responsible attitude?
Getting back to your post, Sarge, sadly much the same thing has happened to woodworking in schools here in the UK, although there are still a few that offer it. I occasionally do talks in schools on the subject of materials and design. I give the kids 10 minutes to design a music stand to meet given requirements, then show them how I solved the problems and talk through the strengths and weaknesses of their designs. I find it a great experience and am always amazed by their inventiveness and imagination. The positivity of the young people's respinse to this approach is very rewarding. Let us hope that even a few of them carry that enthusiasm for wood and design into their adult lives.
On the subject of the prevalence of table saw use, things are a bit different over here where they are much less commonly owned. I think there are two main reasons for this. The first is that the influence of Norm is much less pervasive but, more importantly, UK workshops tend to be smaller than those in the US and table saws are very space consuming. A UK amateur would more likely start out with a bandsaw and a router table which is a pretty safe and versatile combination.
In answer to Gary, I can't speak for the US of course, but in the UK we have the Health and Safety Executive which enforces the requirements. Employees can go to them for help. Owners can end up with a lengthy prison sentence if breaches of the H&S requirements result in a serious accident. An H&S inspection in the scenario you decribe would likley mean you would be shut down until the problems were fixed and further monitoring visits would follow.
Jim
Any time I see someone talk about "rates" I want to see the denominator explicitly defined. Is that per year, per woodworker, per woodworker hour, per tool, per board foot, per project, etc etc etc.? Without a denominator, you can't make much headway.
From my amateur perspective, my router seems to be my most dangerous tool and the bandsaw would be right behind. I haven't hurt myself on any of my tools, but those have given me the closest calls by far. The little palm router that I bought a month ago being the scariest of the lot.
Brent
Hi Rainham, I wanted to take some time before responding to your comment. I don’t think I am missing the point, you are saying that FWW, and possibly other magazines, encourage unsafe practices. As was pointed out many times previously, that is done for a better view of the work being done, and at times to make some thing clearer to understand. It is not Taunton’s, or any publishers, responsibility to be the safety police. I feel it is ultimately your responsibility, and in this day and age, lets stop the blame game, and take responsibility for our own mistakes, and not blame others for our own stupidity. If you wish to keep debating this please provide some figures for all here. garyowen
Hi Gary,
I think I have covered this in my response to Sarge who made much the same points as you. I do not for a moment suggest the primary responsibility is the user's, but just about anyone can go out and buy a machine. Mags encourage it, many buyers are not good at reading instructions but they do read the mags. For me that gives them a responsibility to show safe practice or explain where they are not for the sake of clarity. I write mag articles over here and would be horrified to think that soemeone had an accident because they followed something I had written/photographed. In practice it would not happen because the editor would be blow me out, so he feels a responsibility too.
It does surprise me that in a country reputedly so litigious as the US that mags take such a cavalier attitude to their readers safety.
Jim
The US is not nearly so litigious as you would think, given the press and urban legend about that myth. The vast majority of lawsuits are corporate - on both ends. That just doesn't make a good story or whining point.
So let me ask a question about tablesaw safety in the workplace. For example, I own a business or work in a business that removes guards, does not provide splitters, lets machines get out of adjustment, has no dust collection, etc. What's my liability as an owner, and, at the other end, what would be my proper recourse as an employee?
It's difficult to come to conclusions without some real statistics on the issue. Everyone has some pretty subjective views on the matter, so here's just another:
I think that per capita there are simply far more tablesaws in the hands of hobbyists and weekend warriors in the US than anywhere else. It's the first machine that any would-be woodworker sticks in the garage, and in most cases he hasn't been trained to use it. It's this army of tablesaw owners that sets the tone for everything - magazine articles, photos, and this website as well. You have only to look at the marketing campaigns of tablesaw companies to understand that the US hobbyist is a force to be reckoned with. I seriously doubt that among professional woodworkers there is any difference in accident rates between the US and other first world countries. (Again, I don't have statistics so I can't back this up). And another element - in the rare instance where a European does have a tablesaw in a home shop, odds are good that it's a slider, and sliders are inherently safer tools.
As for the dilemma of how much governments should interfere, well, that's an old and unresolvable issue. I happen to live in a place where it already interferes in too many aspects of life, so my basic attitude is "Back off". But clearly there are good reasons for ensuring safety in the workplace, as well as regulating monopolies of any kind. As a professional woodworker, I've had 5 shop accidents over the years that were serious enough to warrant a hospital visit. Four out of those five were caused by my own carelessness. The one incident that wasn't my own fault was actually the only one with a tablesaw. Those are the only real statistics I've got.
I still don't have comparative statistics but I did come across this site which may be of interest -
http://tablesawaccidents.com/p1.htm
happy sawing to all,
Interesting numbers and analysis, David.
Since I'm well past the average age of the injured person, I feel really safe now. (Yeah, right. ;-) )
Thanks for posting the link David and... your perspective view of your own professional shop in Isreal. I am not sure how well OSHA enforces over here as I am not in a professional shop but.. I did see an owner of a cabinet shop about a week ago post on one of the forums inquiring about over-head gaurds. OSHA had paid him a visit and he didn't have them. They gave him a time limit and told him he would have them in place at the end of that time window or else... ha.. ha...
If I did own a business there would be mandatory gaurds on saws in my shop regardless of if it were mandatory or not. On the rare occasion a friend ask me to show him how on a TS we go through safety procedure before the machine is turned on. I also am available to several local Boy Scout troops as the instructor for Woodworking Merit Badges. When those young men come they also go through a rigorous TS safety speech and I physically illustrate. I physically draw a line around my TS blade 8" square with a red tipped magic marker. The shield is in place but I tell them if there hand is allowed inside that RED SQUARE they will call their parents to come get them as they will go home early and won't be back.
My personal visionary Alert square is 6" from the blade and I won't violate that. I have plenty of time as a retired hobbyist to set up hold downs.. clamping to miter guage on shorter pieces.. etc.. etc... and if the hands have to be closer than 6" I simply find another way. I sold my dado set about 3 years ago and went to a router for dadoes. Frankly.. it you build a simple adjustable dado jig you can cut a dado (trench to some) including a stopped dado with any thickness stock much quicker.. more efficiently and cleaner than with a stacked dado set which relies on gang cutting (punching the wood IMO) in the center.
MIlling to exactly 3/4" if not always possible so the adjustable jig finds the exactly thickness with two turns of knobs and sliding the indexer fence to a piece of the actual stock being used. You could spend a long time setting a stack up to say 24/32" to get an exact fit but not with an adjustable router jig which indexed the stock in mere seconds with no effort.
Anyhoo.. thanks for the interesting link as I have to get to the shop. Every day is a shop day for a retired hobbiest. ha... ha...
Regards from the southern U.S.A...
Actually I think that the statistic average age of 51 is telling, because to get that number it means that a large number of these accidents must involve retirees, which strengthens my claim that it's the hobbyists, not the pros, who set the apparently high accident levels.
I tend to agree with your conclusion, David. An average age of 51 likely means a bunch of old f*rt hobbyists being balanced against the young studs (pun intended) involved in construction. Considering the direction government is taking, I'm surprised that hobby woodworking hasn't been outlawed, and all the table saws havent been confiscated.
Way over 51 here!
I try my best to be safe around my routers and tablesaw. Although, I do admit, that I have been hit by 'kickback' twice in my long life. One time, hit in the chest, and that hurt ALOT!
I always try to use my splitter (not a riving knife) if possible. However, it seems that much of the work I do requires that I remove the 'factory' metal splitter. I have a short drill rod I put in behind the blade. Not sure how effective it is but..... something there. I would imagine that for most kickback issues the wood would just be lifted up and over the short pin.
As to my routers.. Never had any hint of a problem on the router table but once had some purpleheart 'shatter' on me while using the hand held router. I would assume I was not paying attention to the grain direction?
I'm posting a reply only becauce of a recient insident while ripping some 2 inch thick by 10 inch wide Jatoba. The Jatoba was beautiful! Or so I thought from looking at the grain. These slabs have been in my shop for at least 5 years, standing on edge, with tar paper to protect the end grain from the concrete floor. I rotate the ends about once a month, IF, I remembered to do it.
I had my 'factory' guards on my tablesaw and I also had feather boards (I always try to use them on ever ripping operation).
I was about two/thirds of the length (80 inches long) into the rip and I felt and heard what sounded like a rifle shot. The board exploded and I am not sure what happened after the very loud sound... I was not hurt! Lucky? Anyway, the blade hit some 'reaction' wood and away it went. I had no indication from the blade 'sound' that anything was going to be happening that I should be aware of. One half of the board (The cutoff) went flying across my shop. I other half, next to the fence, was just as cut. but with some wood left to be cut off to finish the cut. It was still useable!
The half that went across the shop must have climbed up and over the feather boards and went on it's merry way.....
I know of no safety feature that would have prevented this. The 'fly-off' went well away from me but if somebody was standing at the left side of my saw they would have been in big trouble!
Could I blame the saw manufacturer?
Could I get 1.4 million for my experience (Only in a USA governmental institution!) ?
Who would think that it was the trees fault?
Should I give up using Jatoba?
As a side note:
I cannot explain exactally what I found. The 'bad' half, looked like what was bark inside along the split. Very soft, bark like, wood inside of a log? I have never seen a live Jatoba tree. Do they have very large branches? The grain was 'Riff' toward 'Quarter' sawn wood.
I still found a use for the 'fly-off'....
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