Table saw safety! Blade guards?
Just Curious,
Regarding Shop Safety, On my table saw I use a various assortment of board buddies, feather boards, magnetic feather boards, a splitter and at times vertical feather boards.
I have to say, I’ll admit it, I rarely if ever use my blade guard. I have been in at least 6 different professional furniture shops, as a visitor, and I have never seen one installed. I have also been in a few cabinet shops and a few school shops, and again I have never seen the blade guard installed.
I have read hundreds of articles in woodworking magazines that show the tablesaw in operation. Always with the disclaimer, “Blade guard removed for visual clarity”. I gut reaction is that this is a bunch of BS.
I realize I may be setting myself up for a tongue (text) lashing, as it were, but oh well.
I would totally understand if nobody wanted to reply to this… I’t just a matter of curiosity.
On the other hand if some of you out there use the guard regularly and have developed methods of making it a little less cumbersome I would love to hear and see it.
Thanks!
Muleboy.
Replies
For every operation that allows it (that is most as I use my saw 85% of the time for ripping), I use my Brett Guard and love it.
For crosscutting I use a sled which has a poly cover in the center and thus guards the blade too.
The only times I go naked is when dadoing tenons or cutting tenons or open mortises in long stock that makes using teh Brett Guard impossible. But for teh open mortises I'm using a home built version of a tenoning jig that makes the operation very safe in that my hands are nowhere near the blades.
Hey Muley,
With regards to your fingers, using a table saw without a blade guard is the equivalent of playing russian roulette. Way to many possibilities to leaving one or more digits laying in the sawdust, and one hell of a way to ruin your day let alone the potential long term effects on the rest of your life and or finances. Sorry for the lecture but been there, done that; was damn lucky and still have my left index finger (though nerve sensations are still a little different four? years later). Saw manufacturers should be sent to prison for the crap that they include with their machines for guards. That is why you see so many pro shops without. Usually the saws are actually safer without the stock guard, but that does not make them safe. Many good overarm guards available. In my shop I use a Delta overarm guard and the splitter that came with it. Won't let buddies use my saw without guard, period. (except for the obvious exc's.) IMHO even more important is a good splitter. It is more than "I know what I am doing" or "I'll be okay"; what-if usually happens in about a split second and then you have what you have. And of course there is that nagging little question of liability if something happens(employees, friends, etc.) Saw injuries take a long time to heal, hard to earn a living with one hand bandaged bigger than your thigh and held up in the air. Yet the bills still have to get payed. People tend to get a little funny when they get desperate, that combined with shyster atty's advertising on the tube all day long; I think you probably see where this is headed.
Hope that this helps you with your decision. Sorry for getting on my soapbox so long. Before I decided to work for myself doing what I wanted to do for a living I spent 3 years working as a surgical tech at a local hospital that was also known as "the institute for limb preservation", spent many a long night helping to try to save fingers, etc. Enough said on that subject.
BigK,
By no means am I trying to "justify" not using the blade guard. I'll be honest, I have been using my present table saw for 6 years now and at times I still find it a little scary. I tend to step back and go through the next TS process in my head before I do it. My hands are my life. I have been working with machines since I was 16. I and out of my day job. Besides My fiance' would kill me if she didn't have a finger to put the ring on in 103 days.
I guess What I am trying to get at, is just what you said... The guards that come with the saw are more of a liability than a help. I had a splitter custom made by a welder. I had it made so I could take it on and off easily. The original splitter requires the blade to be removed the throat plate to be removed, and was more or less useless. The inherent clumsiness of the original devices tends to make them sit on the side and not get used.
I use just about every other safety device I can get my hands on. I use store bought push sticks and custom, home made, ones. I make my own zero clearance inserts, I make my own push blocks for the jointer. ETC ETC.
I have been eyeing the after market blade guards for years. I would love to hear that one is actually worth the money and isn't a real pain in the butt to use.
I would use a blade guard if it wasn't clumsy and cumbersome. I guess I just find it funny that I NEVER, and I mean NEVER, see them installed. In ANY shop I have ever been in. I mean these things seem as elusive as Bigfoot.
What kind of Blade guard do you use? Is it easy to use? Do you use it in every possible cut you can?
I would take the plunge... I would convert to the church of blade guards. I would convert if the mass wasn't like visiting the dentist.
Muleboy. <-----wants to keep his fingers!!!
I always put my stock Unisaw blade guard on (usual exceptions). Still screwed myself pretty good on one exception cut, but that doesn't make me more likely to go commando. I'll use the stock guard, PITA though it is, until I can research and buy a good overarm.
Definitely looking forward to getting back into the shop -- doc says I'll be allowed to pick up paperclips in February, unrestricted use of the right hand some time in March. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Hey Muley,
In my shop I have and use a Delta overarm guard and the removable splitter that came with it. Shortly after it was installed I made one small modification to the arm. Where the guard arm fits into the main arm Idrilled both tubes and installed a short clevis pin to act as a quick locator for reassembly. I appreciatte that the blade covers are always on either side of the blade unless I remove it to do tenons. The splitter is easy and fast to remove and reinstall, and I have grown to like the kickback pawls. Don't think that I would appreciatte having to adjust the height of the blade guard for different cuts all the time. To much repetition for me. One of the magazines did a comparison of after market guardsabout a year or so ago, if you are interested. Sorry that I can't remember who.
Muleboy...I'm afraid I have to agree with you and open myself up for being so careless. However, I've had two close calls on my TS's over the years. After each, I took off the $$&* guard and threw it in the trash before it killed me! I too haven't seen a single guard yet that would work the way I work.
The best guard is your head! Keep it in the game! The tools are dangerous and will not give you a second chance and if you keep that in mind, watch your fingers and possible conflicts with materials moving through the blade, you should be fine.
Darn, wish there was something that kept me safe all the time, but I haven't found it yet.
Well I have a few simple rules when it comes to things that could cut something off.
Never work Tired.
Never work ANGRY.
Never work distracted.
Never work when consuming beer/wine/etc.
(I know that's a no brainer but I've seen it happen)
After the first time My fiance' walked in the shop on a sunny summer morning and tapped me on the shoulder to "surprise" me. We subsequently had a little talk about surprises and table saws.
Muleboy.
Something to keep me safe all the time.
100 percent effective. Stay in bed.
Hey, but a plane could crash on your house!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/West/01/24/california.plane.crash.ap/story.plane.house.ca.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/01/24/california.plane.crash.ap/&h=168&w=220&sz=12&tbnid=1wVCoLS1kC2yPM:&tbnh=77&tbnw=102&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplane%2Bcrash%2Bhouse%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26sa%3DG
Or a tree fall on it:
http://edgewoodplacebb.com/images/Hazelimages/trentershse.jpeg
In short, living is risk.
Ya know, they even got safety devices for that! God love the lawyers....somebody has to.
" I too haven't seen a single guard yet that would work the way I work."
Then maybe you need to change the way you work as well as your guard.
"The best guard is your head! Keep it in the game! The tools are dangerous and will not give you a second chance and if you keep that in mind, watch your fingers and possible conflicts with materials moving through the blade, you should be fine."
The best guard is actually a guard. Your head will tell your hands to stretch out and break your fall if you overbalance - it won't consider "extra information" such as whether or not the place your hand is going to land happens to be a spinning, unguarded saw blade.
Scrit
Your best guard is your head!
Your best guard is your guard!
No, I disagree. I think your best guard is your head that tells you, you must have a guard to to ensure you keep the rest of your body parts together. It would certainly be nice to have a guard that would easily come off and reinstall for the times that the blade doesn't go clear through the wood though.
Then with such a poor approach to primary safety it's a darned good job you're an amateur woodworker
Frankly, I think that is the best approach to safety. People who don't use their heads also don't use the guards and the safety devices available to them. If fact, people who don't use their heads don't know enough to keep their fingers out of harm's way. I think you missed what I tried to say.
Edited 3/5/2006 9:05 pm ET by tinkerer2
Sorry, but I get a bit annoyed by the cavalier attitude some so-called "professional" woodworkers (pronounced "minor TV and satellite network celebrities") towards safety - and the fact that Mr Untrained Weekend Wood Warrior thinks that playing Russian roulette with his fingers and an unguarded spinning sawblade is OK, "because I saw it on TV" (or in a book, or at his buddy Joes's, etc). Guards are there for a purpose and should work. Obviously there must be a lot of rubbish guards in the world, together with bendy splitters (as opposed to riving knives), and the like.
Scrit
Sorry for the tardiness of the reply but my internet quit on me and the my first reply was lost but then, on it's own, it started working again. I fail to see how taking the extra precaution to insure safety is a "poor approach to primary safety." Yes, I admit to a slower work progress, and yes, I admit to the "weekend woodworking warrior" status that you refer to. As my title would suggest, I never presented myself as an experienced woodworker, but I enjoy practicing. At age of 73 I am in the process of retiring, I will find more time to woodwork and take every opportunity to do so. Until recently we never had TV reception where I live, and now I have lost my hearing so don't watch TV and have never watched a whole TV woodworking show. I would like to be able too, though, as I enjoy just about anything that pertains to woodworking and I do enjoy your contributions to this forum. Sorry to give all this boring personal information but it felt a personal attack as being unsafe when I take all the precautions you, reportedly, take plus more because I am unexperienced.
Edited 3/9/2006 11:32 pm ET by tinkerer2
Edited 3/9/2006 11:33 pm ET by tinkerer2
Hi there Tinkerer
It's good that you're thinking through what you are doing at a saw. I feel that too many people get a machine like a table saw then treat it a bit like a "plug and play" computer. It's a tad more dangerous than that, so whilst you may be lucky and never get hurt, the maths aren't on your side. I make a living from woodworking, although I once enjoyed amateur status - these days I'm pretty aghast at some of the hazardous things I did back then so I'm perhaps a little OTT about safety. Employing people tends to push you that way as well. The zeal of a convert, perhaps? <G>
Taking the time to think through making a cut is a given for a full-time woodworker, or at least it should be, it's really the guy who takes all the guards off and the spltter and then says "I know what I'm doing, my brain is my primary safety device" that my comments were aimed at. An accident can happen much faster then than the brain and muscles can react to - one reason I've had 13 stitches in my left thumb (22 lacerations - total contact time with cutterblock in a pin router 1/30th second). Without chip limiter cutters and a guard in place I'd have lost the thumb.
Scrit
As has been said here before, "the powered woodshop is a dangerous place to be." No use letting it be more dangerous that it just has to be. I like your idea of using your brain to think out the cut, then proceeding with guards and safeties in place. Your chances of an accident are much less. Sorry about your injury - I hope it is long since healed, but it's stories like yours that show us, less experienced, the need to take all the precautions we can. Thanks for the info.
Edited 3/12/2006 9:11 pm ET by tinkerer2
I really appreciate your point of view and stress on thought before action on powered shop equipment. Need your opinion on the operation of a tablesaw. Just bought a new powermatic 66 recently, and cannot get use to using the blade guard to line up my cuts. Whenever I view someone using a tablesaw on video, the guards are off, splitter is still on. Is this the answer to lining up for cuts on a table saw? I should say that for years I have only used a radial arm saw, so my experience is very limited on the tablesaw.
I would appreciate any advise on how to setup the powermatic to get a cleaner view of the cut marks but still includes all the safety items on the saw. Thanks in advance.
In the days when I had a Wadkin with a solid cast aluminium crown guard mounted on the riving knife I used to strugle with this at times. The trick was to replace the standard tightener with a quick release fastener so that I could flip the guard up to align the cut with the blade, then flip the guard down, switch on and make the cut. I've used an Altendorf panel saw for more than 7 years now, mainly because I do a lot of sheet goods, but the Alts have clear acrylic crown guards supported on long-reach arms and it's just so much easier to rip to a line with that type of guard that I really hate going back to the old deWalt DW742 when I'm doing on-site trim work!
Scrit
Edited 3/31/2006 8:05 am by Scrit
Thanks Scrit, it would be nice to use a panel setup to cut sheet goods, but alittle too costly at this point. I'm wondering, are there after market suppliers for blade guards for powermatics? and who are they? Guess the question goes to whomever has some info. Thanks.
I would think any of the aftermarket overhead guards would work, no? Maybe I'm unclear as to what you're referring to. Seems like most folks go with an aftermarket removable splitter (Biesemeyer, Merlin for instance) and an overhead guard. I have the Merlin with a PSI collector/guard. Or you can make your own guard. And build a splitter into your throat insert, or make a riving knife (beyond my talents, LOL!)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/1/2006 11:12 am by forestgirl
Appreciate your thoughts, forestgirl. I guess I'll try the after market sites to see what I can find. You know, after many years of dabbling around with wood projects,spelled 'weekender', I'd hate to loose any of my fingers at this point. Retirement is supposed to be fun, right? Take care.
"Retirement is supposed to be fun, right?" Absolutely!
Here's the page for the Biesemeyer. If they had one to fit my old Jet saw, I'd have opted for it, but the Merlin was the only one that would fit.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
So you like your merlin? How thick is your blade? Do you have website? I have seen them in woodcraft, but not for my saw (old blue jet). I use splitters and homemade zero clearance plates. How much did it cost?
Thanks,
Marion
Wow, you're just full of questions <grin>. Ahhhhhh, another Blue Dinosaur owner, cool.
I will get the model number for you. It didn't fit perfectly, I had to do something (add a washer? can't remember, but can reconstruct) and I can't raise the blade to the very tippy top and use it, due to interference. It's possible I could do something to fix that too, just haven't bothered.
Do I like it? YES! Pops right out, reinstalls easily, though I do double-check and make sure nothing shifted. I got it on sale at Rockler, around $50-$60 IIRC. Hang around, I'll get the info for you.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl
I googled merlin splitter. It looks like it attaches to back of saw. I have outfeed table attached that I think would get in way. I tuned saw when I got it and set it up for dust collection and small outfeed. I may stick with my ho-made splitter and zero clearance plate for now. As far as Blue Dinosaur--I have herd. Bandsaw and jointer are also blue, I almost didn't buy the white drill press, because the color didn't match.
(just kidding)
Marion
Well, darn, I finally had time to get out to the shop and find the box, and you're bailing on me! ROFL! C'mon, you can modify the outfeed table.
The model that I made fit my saw is MTK 150. It happens to be a thin kerf model, which wasn't on purpose. Just was the one they had that I was willing to take a chance on.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie,
I'll take a picture of outfeed table. Did you make zero clearance plate for it? Right now I have two forrest thin blades and one other blade that is 1/8". I like the idea of being able to take it on and off.
Marion
"Did you make zero clearance plate for it?" Welllll, I do have a few ZC inserts for saw blades and dado.
"I like the idea of being able to take it on and off." Absolutely! Turns my table saw into an assembly table very quickly, and makes doing dados and such "no big deal."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I had to cut some full sheets of ply on Tuesday. Clamped each in turn to the TS, and used a piece of MDF as a fence for my crappy old circular saw. Not pretty, not high-tech, but very fast and effective.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I'm with you. While the concept of the blade guard seems to make sense, I am not at all sure that it really adds much safety. I follow a simple rule. Where will my hands go if the board I am pushing through the saw were to instantly evaporate? I use a Beisemeyer splitter religiously since I believe kickback is much the more serious danger. Finger boards too. My Brett guard hasn't been installed in years.
The guard isn't much in the way making wide rips--3" or more. But then it isn't needed, I can push the board without hands getting close to the blade. But on narrower rips it interferes with the shoe style pusher I prefer.
If I were making large numbers of repetitive cuts then the guard may be of benefit if the mind wanders. Makes sense for OSHA. But I do one-off furniture, so I don't face that problem.
I give the table saw blade a great deal of respect for the damage it could do, but being scared of it isn't smart or safe.
FWIW, I found this particular push shoe has allowed me to make very thin rips with the Brett guard in place:
http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6781
And I guess I'm a chicken, but I'd never want to push through a three inch rip with my hand. Maybe my hands are too big?
Well I have several fingers wrapped over the rip fence which pretty much insures I can't get a thumb over to the blade. That's about my lower limit though. (And I do have fairly small hands.
That shoe fence would do it, but I make my own shoes, and treat them as expendeble. If one gets cut--no big deal.
I looked at the picture of the push stick on the link of your message --- http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6781 ---...WHAT were the manufactures thinking putting a pencil tray on a push stick!!! The last thing I need to be thinking about, when my concentration is on an already dangerous activity, is if the pencil tray will clear the blade, or if it will vibrate loose and come flying back at me at 100mph. Thanks, but no thanks. A PUSH STICK IS NO PLACE FOR A PENCIL HOLDER!
Edited 5/18/2006 8:24 pm ET by grainwise
The pencil tray, part of the "tray caddy," is intended to be mounted to a wall, your saw, or anywhere else. As the description says, it gives you a place to put the push stick when not in use, and also holds some pencils and two tape measures. When you pick up the push stick to use it, the pencil tray does not come along for the ride.
I'll admit that when I saw the picture, it looked just like you said, a push stick with a pencil caddy built in!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Thanx for the correction, John. That makes much more sence. Spent a greater part of the day sanding...too much dust between the ears :)-Kevin
Where will my hands go if the board I am pushing through the saw were to instantly evaporate?
That's the one I wish I'd known before. It won't be slipping my mind again.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Near as I can tell, the only way to make it [the stock blade guard] "a little less cumbersome" is to get rid of it and replace it with an overhead guard. I can't stand to use a saw without a guard (did that for a year before getting a different saw). But after using the stock guard with the Jet, I could completely understand why people take 'em off and lose them!
I now have the PSI overhead guard and use it religiously. Oh, that and a snap-out splitter (Merlin). Totally removes the temptation to take short-cuts with that part of blade safety.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I find it interesting that you have visited several pro shops that didn't have blade gaurds. Were these one man shops? Most cabinet (all that I have visited) have OSHA blade gaurds on the table saw. There are lots of great overhead gaurds that do not interfere with any operation except using a tennon jig, and they are easily moved out of the way for that. These can be bought for very reasonable prices (less than $300). I, like most of us, would have rather spent that three hundred bucks on a new tool. However mine came with my saw. I know that most wives who wouldn't aprove a mortise machine or 3 horse router purchase would be OK with an importaint safety device.
I am pretty certain that my gaurd saved my fingers once so far. I was cutting a panel and my hand sliped on the dusty surface while feeding the sheet. My hand slid up to and hit the gaurd. When I felt my hand hit the gaurd my stomache fliped. Granted I shouldn't have had my hand in line with the blade, but there is no one here who can convince me that they have neverd one it as well. We all make mistakes, and some of us loose fingers.
Mike
Good Post.
There are lots of great overhead gaurds that do not interfere with any operation except using a tennon jig, and they are easily moved out of the way for that. These can be bought for very reasonable prices (less than $300).
You wouldn't think people would put a price on safety... $300 may seem like a large sum of money when you only spent $1000 on your saw. But I'm sure many of these people don't think twice about dropping $100 on a Forrest II blade for the ultimate accuracy. The guard will last a long time, and will move from saw to saw as you upgrade... A very good value, even if it is only 'needed' once.
I know that most wives who wouldn't aprove a mortise machine or 3 horse router purchase would be OK with an importaint safety device.
My wife has never given my grief for any safety item I've ever purchased. If she's in the shop she makes sure I don't even think about making a cut without safety equipment in place.
We all make mistakes, and some of us loose fingers.
Yesterday I made a some quick cuts on the table saw. After I'm done I go over to the drill press and on the table I find my safety glasses... I ALWAYS where my safety glasses in the shop. But I had taken them off when I went inside the house, and forgot to put them back on when I returned.
We all make mistakes, I figure why tempt fate. Any safety device I can put between me and the saw blade is probably a good thing, even if it does cost a few dollars.
If I were going to go out tomorrow and purchase a new saw I would only buy, as a minimum, a saw with a European style riving knife guard set up or I would most likely buy a Saw Stop saw with the electronic brake and a Euro style guard.
The Euro style guard is so much better, in terms of convenience and protection, than the classic American style guard that there really is no competition between the two.
John W.
Edited 1/9/2006 4:15 pm ET by JohnWW
I agree with you John. I'd like to have a Saw Stop.
Mike
Muleboy,
I have a large SCMI slider in the shop with riving knife. The simple guard that came with the saw was never used, simply because it was in the way - interfered with seeing the cut line, etc. After some years of working with the saw without a guard, we added their optional guard which is on a very long arm and can be lifted up or swung aside easily. Since then it is always in use, and although the guard cost $1000, I am glad we got it, and not just for the insurance liability coverage.
In short, if you have a quality guard it will be a useful tool like any other. If you don't have the right tool then you make do, but you're out on a limb.
DR
I agree with you and with many of the other comments. Full disclosure: I am a physician with more than a little time working in ERs.
As far as I can tell, the stock guards are manufactured cheaply to minimize liability rather than to ensure safety. Anything that makes is harder to see or hangs up your board is going to make you less safe, not more.
The WW School where I learned to make sawdust had removed the blade guards from the TSs for this reason. Each person was instructed in how to cut safely (particualry ripping) and instructors watched the machines like hawks...
I think a splitter or riving knife is more essential to avoid kickback, and featherboards and push sticks are mandatory. A splitter attached permanently to a zero clearance throat plate makes a lot of sense to me. I agree 110% with the comment about "where my hands would be if the board being pushed evaporated"- more injuries occur as a result of bad positioning/thinking than any other reason. The most famous last line before a trip to the ER is "Ordinarily I would have _____, but I was in a hurry and only making a few cuts..."
As for aftermarket guards, I am keeping an open mind. I will be upgrading my TS in the next 12 months, and I'll look into the overhead guards. They seem better designed and also are helpful for dust collection.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
overarm guards are a necessity not just for your fingers, but also your lungs. Check out the Bill Pentz site; he cites requirements for a TS for sucking 400 CFM at the blade in order to control fine dust, as well as 400 CFM at the cabinet. it you don't do this with an overarm guard, you need to be wearing a respirator. Especially in a pro shop where employees will be using the TS, and OSHA thus applies.
Edited 1/11/2006 5:45 pm by BarryO
for dust I have a pretty nice set-up. On my contractor saw I hav this gut to catch the majority.
It's called the Dust Monkey... It's the only thing, that I have seen, that seems to be designed for a contractor type saw.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006U67UQ/102-9384090-1128962?v=glance&n=228013
Then I have a fan attached to the rafters above and behind my head. This fan points at the back of my head from an above angle. Originally intended to keep me cool during the summer I quickly realized that it also keeps the dust blowing away from me. It also clears dust from the the top of the table saw/router table.
I try to use a dust mask as much as possible. I can tolerate the fact that they make my face sweat during the summer. but the fogging of the glasses in the winter is a little dangerous.
Lastly the air cleaner is oversized for my 420 sq/ft shop. I believe it does a pretty good job...
I am still considering the After market blade guard. Perhaps I am just used to spinning blades at my finger tips. I have been using key machines for 16 years and they are almost never guarded. The guards for the machines out there are there to keep brass shavings from flying towards your face.... they do nothing for your hands.
BTW. I Have NEVER EVER seen an OSHA inspector, except in movies. They also seem like bigfoot to me.
Muleboy.
I've seen them.... several times.
Mike
I'am considering the purchase of an overheadguard for my delta table saw...would some of you state your preferences and why ??
re: never having seen an osha inspector...during my 37 years in the auto industry I went thru one of their "wall to wall" inspections. It lasted about eight years. Fifty seven acres under roof, underground storage tanks and the "teams" had no limits or restrictions. Everything and everyone was on notice...the old addage about learning from mistakes of others cause you wont live long enough to make them all yourself...applies to osha.
We had a Habitat worker lose part of a finger on a small DeWalt saw a couple of weeks ago. No guard, naturally.
I'm using a Biesmeyer overhead guard with their splitter. The price for the splitter is ridiculous but still worth it. My guard doesn't have a dust collector on it. It looks like it has a "breakout"window that might be removed to hook a hose to it. Do any of you know if there is a dust collection attachment for the plexiglass guard?
Muleboy.
I agree with you on the magazines.
But, I use a blade guard almost without exception, both at work (under penalty of law and dismissal) and at home on an old combo machine, when I'm working on foreign orders. Mine attaches to the riving knife and looks something like this blade guard, although it's a pity my machine doesn't:
">View Image
I'm probably going back to my trade in about 2 or 3 years, and will be needing an overhead blade guard and a bridge-type guard for the jointer instead of a leg-of-mutton type (US styled) guard.
So, the short answer is, here, you are required by law to use the guard in anything but a home shop, and you would be well-advised to use the guard at home as well.
I remembered this resource yesterday - safe working practices written by the UK version of OSHA - has a lot of practical advice in here on most common machines.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm - if you go down to "circular saw bench safety" then you'll see their specific advice on saws, but there's a wealth of good information in here.
Best regards,
eddie
A while back after finishing some crosscuts using a sled, I realized I had failed to rip one alder board (4/4, about 10 feet long). I swapped blades, put in my zero clearance, and then realized I hadn't put back the stock blade guard and splitter (Jet cabinet saw). My first thought was that it "was only one cut," and that all the previous boards seemed well-behaved. My second thought was that I would look pretty stupid with a board through my forehead and a piece of safety equipment on the bench. So I took an extra minute to put on the guard. About half-way into the rip, something went wrong, but the POS stock guard held back the board that was trying to jump over the blade and off the saw. The board was noisy as it banged up and down until I got the saw shut down. Wife came running out to see if I was okay. Yep.
To make the installation of the guard easier, I bought a 12/13 mm ratcheting box-wrench, which makes the task go even faster. One day I hope to replace the stock guard with a better piece, until then, I'll keep using the stock one.
Ahhhh, prompt rewards for good behavior. We all need that. Glad you paid attention to that little voice.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"muleboy": Let me tell u of my experience last summer. Never use guard cause don't even know what I did with it. Cutting a bunch of stock for a project. Had 1 more piece to go but, getting very tired. Just wanted to finish up. While I'm watching "lead" hand, not paying attention to "trailing" hand. Put the blade through my middle fingernail. Didn't worry much till it wouldn't stop bleeding. Fortunately, daughter home and told her to call 911.
By the time I got to my front foyer, passed out! Was taken to hospital by ambulance and bandaged up. Finger perfectly normal today but, could have been a lot worse!
Now u special push tool, "gripper". I believe rockler carrys them. So u decide. Was it worth it?????????????????/
My mantra, repeated every time I reach for the TS switch, is "I DON'T WANT TO LOSE A FINGER TODAY" - for me a good way to remember/force myself to take the extra minute to reinstall the guard/splitter, use pushsticks and featherboards, keep my fingers (and body) out of the path of the blade...
u will get no argument from me. Thanks
If the saw has a riving knife that moves with the blade, this knife can have a slotted hole in it into which a pivoting blade guard mounts.
The guard too then moves up and down or tilts with the blade. It can be tipped back or pressed right down to completely cover the blade. It's front is chamfered, so that the workpiece lifts the guard as you push it into the blade - just enough for the plank, not your hand.
The guard can be taken off (or put back) in 2 seconds, as it locks/unlocks to the slotted hole in the riving knife with a bristol lever. It also has an extra dust collection hose on the guard top, which gets the dust that doesn't immediately fall off the blade inside the saw cabinet.
I never take my guard off the saw unless I'm cutting over the blade. It in no way interferes with any other sawing operation or my view of that operation.
If you have a traditional American saw, all this is denied you and you must spend hundreds of dollars on a cantilevered thing that will still probably be obtrusive. Also, a splitter is nowhere near as good as a blade-following riving knife at preventing kickback.
I recommend you put the hundreds of guard-dollars towards a nice new European machine (or a Saw-stop) instead. The old Delta or Powermatic will make a nice finishing table or stand for a potted plant. :-)
The worst thing I envision with no guard in place is slipping/stumbling and falling onto the moving blade. It might be your finger but may be your hand or even your arm that gets a mincin'! Of course, one is careful in the shed - except when one isn't. Me, I'm only human.
Lataxe
From the very 1st time I purchased my "budget tablesaw" I disengaged the blade guard. The guard's holder never seem to be in straight line with the blade.
I'm not sure wether good quality TS for which we got to put extra buck would do better.
On Sept. 9th, 2004, I was reaching across the blade on my Powermatic 66, and a side effect of a medication I take caused my left hand to droop and my left thumb hit the blade. An ER visit and 4 stitches were the result.
On Nov. 9th, 2004, exactly 2 months later, the same thing happened. This time it was much worse with 5 stitches and the end of my thumb looking like raw hamburger. I have no feeling on the pad of my thumb.
This time, I did what I should have done on Sept. 9th. I ordered the PSI overarm blade guard. I hated it! But I forced myself to keep using it. The more I used it, the more I got used to it. I now don't even know it's there. I just automatically pull it down so it covers the blade. There have been a few times that I didn't pull it down, and as I start to make the cut, the spinning blade scared me to death.
It's the best $200 I've ever spent. Take a look at the picture I've attached.
Edited 4/6/2006 10:27 pm ET by LarryN
Larry, Thanks for sharing your mishap. Sent shivers down my spine. These very personal reminders help us all remember that we are working with dangerous machinery and need to be aware and alert, and take proper safety precautions.
Hi Mtn_Bob,
I share the same thought with you. Table Saw is the most scaring machine I always work with. My heart's pounding like I am performing pumping position. I feel relief once I finish cutting long narrow board. Then take a stick of cigarette and smoke, which is more dangerous........!
Bye
.....they who fight and run away, will live to fight another day ...
(RD many many years ago)
Whatever you do - always have a blade guard in place, at least for those 99% of the cuts you can do with it - some tablesaw jigs make it hard to use the guard at the same time.
I was making a few cuts without a blade guard and had an 'instant' where I ran two fingers into the blade. Fortunately, I didn't lose the fingers - thanks to an excellent micro-surgeon, but after $18,000+ in medical bills and months of recovery, the blade guard is now a permanent fixture. (and don't forget the splitter)
Don't make the same mistake - and yes, I told myself for years that I'm a careful woodworker and it couldn't happen to me... all it took was about 1/4 of a second to change that. And I could have done alot better things with the $18,000.
mark
You and me both, buddy -- my rehab ended a couple weeks ago. Isn't it funny how just a fraction of a second of a bad decision can have such long-lasting effects?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
This discussion is a great example of the general law: Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean there won't be a first time.
But isn't it astounding how many chaps out there believe in that other "double unjeapordy" law: If it hasn't happened to me yet and I don't want it to, it won't, as I am Special and Clever.
Then Reality jumps up and has a Great Big Bite.
Lataxe (justifiably paranoid about his fingers and other bits).
Heh: I have a DeWalt 746 with the stock guard which I use whenever I can, PITA that it is. Also have a Betterly (sp) zero clearance insert in use most of the time. No place for an overhead guard, what else is there out there for my saw? I've called a couple of the companies (don't remember which) but they don't have anything for the D.W.
DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights December 15 1791 NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
John, glad your hand is better! Gotta tell you a story: Was talking to a Knots friend on the phone the other night. He has a friend who was cutting 4x4's up into 4" cubes. So? you say....well, he was using the fence as a stop and having one hand on each side of the stock. Can you spell D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R??? Was extremely fortunate to only cut himself, not amputate. Sheesh! He was no newbie to the table saw either. Yikes.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Now that's a funny coincidence. I bought a Biesemeyer cutoff fence and it came in the mail today. It's a bit of $$ but it's easy to put on and off, and since it's exactly 1" it's still easy to use my fence's accurate ruler. Just thought it was funny that it came the same day you mention this to me.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Little short fence, good idea! Enjoy your new set-up!
PS: Jeez, terrible picture, eh?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/19/2006 11:27 am by forestgirl
Yeah, when I got it I was happy to see it wasn't all pixelly.
Heh.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
It's a neat little trick the "cut-off" fence. That "Quack" from that PBS woodworking show has been using a home-made version for years.
What kills me is the cost of this stuff!!! $50!!! I mean really $50 for a piece that can be made in 10 minutes with $2 worth of material. My ugly home-made one is made from a small piece of MDF (waxed of course) With a 1" screw and a hex nut.
Also the pic at the bottom of the web page from your link... $126 for and auxiliary fence. That ROBBERY!! Mine is again made from scraps of MDF. then again my fence makes it really easy to use attachments.
Perhaps I'm just a pinch penny.
Muleboy.
"That "Quack" from that PBS woodworking show has been using a home-made version for years." Do you speak of Norm? I thought that fence was part of the Unisaw fence set-up.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I saw Norm's fence, that's how I decided to see if it was available from Biesemeyer. I've since noticed he also uses their auxiliary fence. He has some other stuff too, all of which matches the fence. Either he gets products from them that isn't available to the rest of us, or me makes stuff from stock that matches exactly.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
This is the part I'm thinking of: "Extra-long 43" fence length can be positioned forward of the blade to better align large panels during ripping and function as a stop for repetitive cross cuts."
I've only watched Norm a couple times in the last year or so, so may not be recalling correctly, but doesn't he just slide that fence toward him to have that stop effect. Rather than adding a piece to the fence? No biggie, just reacting to the statement muleboy made in #76 above.
"He has some other stuff too...." No kidding? ROFL!! Enjoy your new set-up, John.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I know for sure he had the little bitty one in at least one show, because that's when I sought it out and bought it. He may well use the longer auxiliary fence in that capacity in other shows, I just don't know.
I'm not an obsessive Norm fan, but I do wonder why he receives so much derision here. Most of us get to appreciating finer woodworking by way of some of the more workaday folks like Norm.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"I do wonder why he receives so much derision here. Most of us get to appreciating finer woodworking by way of some of the more workaday folks like Norm." I agree. The naysayers speak some truth, granted, but his shortcomings don't make him totally without merit. Blood-sport methinks.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Extra-long 43" fence length can be positioned forward of the blade to better align large panels during ripping and function as a stop for repetitive cross cuts."Forest I think once the blade 'gets' THE WOOD.. The fence hardly any help.. Well, unless you have a a hydraulic cylinder that pushes the wood onto the fence!THEN it will be crooked!
Edited 5/23/2006 11:43 am by WillGeorge
Why, then, do workers sometimes add an extra-long aux. fence when they are handling large panels? If what you say were true, we could just use a tiny little thing and not worry about it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/13/2006 12:25 pm by forestgirl
I was speaking of Norm... but using the "quack" term in jest. Only because someone was ripping on him earlier. I like Norm... I may not agree with everything he does but I like watching his show. Heck I even made a table from one of his plans... with a little bit of modification.
Muleboy.
If you had to pay for the insurance to cover you for the idiots that are sure to use your product incorrectly and then sue you for every penny you, your relatives and anyone else remotely connected with you have you would charge a lot too.
sad but true, sad but true. just one more reason to make my own.
Muleboy.
Can't disagree with you. I bought it because it's exactly an inch, which I might have to fart around with a bit to achieve.
Didn't buy the auxiliary fence. That, I've constructed myself from offcut ply. I have to compensate when reading the fence, but that's OK for now.
I'm pretty new to all this, so I do a mix of making my own stuff, and buying it. Sometimes, I just don't want to take the time to make my own... and what takes experienced workers ten minutes might take me longer. Plus, I don't have the scrap treasure trove that comes with more experience.
The next thing I've got to do is improve my router fence. Right now it's not got a good way to use a hold down, and I'm finding it makes it hard to get parts machined precisely. Last night I was cutting 1/4" grooves into the edge of 3/4" maple ply to edge with 2" of solid maple (into which I milled a 1/4" tongue), and found I'd not kept the ply solidly against the table, as the groove was not centered (by about 1/32" at its worst). So to fix this next time I'll use a hold down. I considered milling the edging wide, but I'm not that confident I can get it dead flush without going through that terribly thin maple veneer on the ply.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Wow, that is a bad picture. Does that look like a pair of vise-grip pliers sticking out of the blade slot?Maybe his blade was out to be sharpened, so he just clamed a pair of v-g pliers to the arbor, and just let the handle beat the board to length............ You know I never would have thought about doing that.
"beat the board to length" too funny No, I suspect that's a splitter, probably the Biesemeyer after-market?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You and me both, buddy -- my rehab ended a couple weeks ago. Isn't it funny how just a fraction of a second of a bad decision can have such long-lasting effects?
I just had a scary incident on my router table last night. I just put it together this weekend and have been trying it out on a small project. One piece of wood broke off, and I really don't know why, maybe I was tired, but I somehow stuck my finger right into the spinning bit. Luckily, it just gave me a tiny cut, but I guess it could have been much worse.
I'll have to do some research into router table safety now. I certainly don't want to repeat that mistake in any way.
Glad you weren't hurt!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
This a message on shopbuilttools BB
Take a look at this guard. It the best and lowest price I have seen.
From: "johnwnixon" <johnwnixon@>
> > Subject: Overarm Dust Collecting Blade Guard
> >
> > I had picked up the Penn State blade guard ($25) with the intent
of
> > making a mount for it similar to this one
> > http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/overarm_guard.shtml
> >
> > I started thinking about a simpler approach and came up with what
> you
> > see in pictures linked below. It works well, and it's fully
> adjustable
> > in every direction. Also, it's easy to get on and off.
> >
> > Pictures can be found here:
> >
http://www.eaglelakewoodworking.com/OverarmDustCollector/index.html
> >
> > Let me know what you think. As far as I know, I don't think this
> > approach has been done before. It's not a bad solution for the
> cost I
> > put into it.
> >
> > John Nixon
> > http://www.eaglelakewoodworking.com
> >
Hi,
Just went to your site, great work. I happen to love mission style so I really enjoyed seeing your pieces. Shop pictures were very nice also. I have a question regarding the blade guard. What an awesome idea. A simple but effective design. How do you raise the guard ?
I see the adjustment on the left, but what am I missing on the right side? Also, did you tap the holes in the fence ? I have the jet contractor saw, with the xacta fence, and am just starting to get my tablesaw in "order". I just put in the mj splitter, in a zci and now need to deal with the guard issue. Also , like your cross-cut sled.Thanks
missent not me
sorry about that..............
I will tell you up front that I don't own a table saw because I don't have room for one. I have used them in school. I have been a woodworker for over 50 years. I read the replys to your question and they are all excellent.
I have been hurt when I least expect it You don't have full control over your hands if you cough, sneeze, or are tired etc. Wood is not uniform and predictable and the outcome of a machine setup is not always what you expect.
When your personal safety is involved, you have to do the right things. Those other woodworkers who don't use the best guard available for their machine are not going to keep you company in the hospital emergency ward while the doctor looks at your parts and pieces.
I would accompany my father on many construction jobs back in the 1940s. I observed several carpenters and other tradesmen missing digits on their hands. Good guards were not thought of back then; safe work procedures were frequently not followed or thought important.
I don't whish to lecture on the subject, but it is your hands and fingers. Every woodworker owes it to themself to work safe as possible. I am glad you asked the question!
HI everyone Long time no post. I got married a month ago and went on a nice long Honeymoon.
After reading a few more replies I was a little frustrated and disappointed to see that the thread got a little nasty at times. Oh well I guess it is bound to happen when you are dealing with passionate people.
Park,
It is clear to see that my original post has gotten a bit distorted, again par for the course. I am in no way cavalier about my safety in my little garage/woodshop. While I am certainly an amateur at woodworking. I have been in the trades for more than half my life. I basically started as early as possible. I use everything for safety I can minus the blade guard. I am extremely cognizant of where my hands are, and even try to predict worst case scenarios.
The fact is I have gotten great info from the readers and responders of this post and of this forum. I have decided that I will try and overarm guard. I'm not sure which one and honestly for the money I will most likely make my own. Thanks again for all the wonderful incite into this problem and even for the injury horror stories.
Muleboy.
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