Replies

1. 
   highfigh | May 20, 2006 04:07pm | #1

   Flatness has been discussed here before. How flat is the wood you'll be cutting? Don't kill yourself if it's not within .001". As long as there isn't a deep depression at the throat (on either side), between the outside edge and the throat or twisting, you should be OK. Check flatness across the width, front-to-back and diagonally. If one corner is lower, try loosening that trunnion bolt but I suspect there won't be a huge affect on the overall flatness.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
1. 
   Germey | May 25, 2006 11:00pm | #2

   I was going to start a new thread, but it would probably have the same title as this one, so let me just jump in. I just bought the Craftsman 22114 and am still setting it up. The setup is not difficult, but the instructions are nearly worthless. Anyway, I bolt on the cast iron wings, and line up all the edges flush, but wings deflect downward so that a straight-edge laying flat on the main table will have a 1/32" gap at the outer edge of the wing. I am guessing that the fix is to place shims (can I cut from a soda can?) at the lower edge the interface. Is this right? Is this common, or should I be miffed and yelling at Sears?
   Any help for this newbie will be appreciated. Wouldn't mind hearing any other tips for the rest of the process.
   Thanks
   Jeremy

1. 
   JasonWhite | May 25, 2006 11:27pm | #3

   Does anybody know where to buy metal shims?TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")

1. 
   JohnWW | May 26, 2006 12:29am | #6

   Hobby shops, for model airplane builders and such, will usually have a small inexpensive prepackaged assortment of brass shim stock in several thicknesses.  Commercially you can buy shim stock from machinists supply houses but the assortments are large and therefore expensive.

   Sheet metal, foil, and soda cans all make serviceable shim stock.  The little antitheft tags that are now attached to many items contain two pieces of very nice .001" steel shim material.  Tape works, but is prone to compressing over time and causing the shimmed adjustment to shift.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine

1. 
   Germey | May 26, 2006 02:16am | #8

   John, Bones and others,
   Thanks for exactly the info I needed. What a great service and an outstanding community here.
   Now if I could just figure out what that large-guage spring is for that I found lying loose at the bottom of the cabinet.
   Also, any talk about cool things to do with the elaborate metal shippng crate Sears sends these in?

2. 
   JohnWW | May 26, 2006 03:34am | #9

   Large coil spring?  On some saws there is a spring like that underneath the motor mount to tension the belt.  The part sheet, if there is one in the manual, might give it a name and approximate location to reinstall.

   John White

3. 
   Germey | May 26, 2006 05:08am | #11

   Bingo, Part # 236, Motor Spring. It is a speck in the schematic and one of about 600 in the numerical list. I don't think I could have found it without you narrowing it down.
   Love the discussion on precision and tolerances. Let's not forget the entertaining collary theory that if enough editors talk up a meaningless spec. the manufacturers will come up with an even more meaningless way to tout their achievement of it.
   "NOW WITH 0.00024 FLATNESS QUOTIENT POINTS"
   "CAN YOU AFFORD TO RISK YOUR WORK TO 0.00025?"Yes, I worked in marketing at one time. Let's not speak of it.
   Jeremy

2. 
   RonK | May 29, 2006 01:18am | #18

   MSC has a brass assortment the following link may help.

   http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1748&PMT4NO=8085581&PMT4TP=*ITPD&PMITEM=00055905&PMCTLG=00

    

2. 
   bones | May 25, 2006 11:39pm | #4

   Shimming a wing is not unheard of. My cabinet saw suggested layers of masking tape in the installation instructions.  I was fortunate that my saw did not require, but it made sense. You can build up the layers to meet the need. A single layer is a few thou thick. If you cannot get it in closely, then check the castings on the wings. It could be off enough to justify a replacement. Don't sweat it.  Enjoy the new toy. Be sure to share the results with the group.

   P.S. Check to make sure no crap is on the wings or the saw edge. Any small grit may cause a problem. 

3. 
   StuartE | May 29, 2006 05:10am | #19

   I bought the same saw the 1st year they were out. I found that it only needed a piece of notebook paper folded once to level out almost perfectly. I have had my saw almost 2 years now, and have had no problems with it. The only thing that I can't figure out is why it seems the table area between the miter-guage slots seems to be lower than outside the slots when I put a straight edge to the central table, but not when I check the flatness with the wing area included. My straight-edge is accurate. It's the darnedest thing I have seen.

2. 
   JohnWW | May 26, 2006 12:12am | #5

   I'm the author of "Care and Repair of Shop Machines" and perhaps I can clarify what I wrote.

   First of all, I didn't recommend using a straight edge and feeler gauges to check the flatness of the saw's table.  Almost all saws made for home shops and light commercial work aren't flat and, being there is no fix for the problem, there isn't much point in checking.  Also, unless the saw is way off, the out of flat condition doesn't greatly affect the quality and precision of the finished cut, provided the rest of the saw's settings are properly adjusted.

   I just suggested using a short straightedge, I was using the one foot rule from a combination square, to check the alignment of the wings when they are installed.  Somewhere along the line the photos of my using the one foot rule were edited out which left a chance for some confusion. 

   In any case, just shim each wing with some beer can shim stock until the wing looks aligned when checked with the one foot long rule and let it go, this isn't a place for worrying about a couple of thousandths.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine      

1. 
   notatexan | May 26, 2006 01:20am | #7

   I agree with you're conclusion about not checking for flatness but for a different reason.  "Flatness" ,from an engineering definition point of view, can't be checked with a straight edge and feeler gages, only approximated. 

   "Dead flat, perfectly flat, etc...."  have no meaning in mechanical design and would never be allowed on a design drawing.  Everything has a tolerance when designed, built, and inspected.  I'm sure every table saw built has a top flatness tolerance, an arbor runout tolerance, miter gage slot perpendicularity tolerance to the arbor, etc.... What these tolerances are and how well the manufacturing process holds those tolerances determines the "quality" of a piece of hardware.  Generally, the tighter the tolerance, the higher the cost.  Better "quality" tools cost more because tighter tolerances cost more.

   Anyone interested in what "flat" really means should google geometric dimensioning and tolerancing (GD&T).  This is the international language of "quality"   I used to teach a class in GD&T and chuckle every time "dead flat" comes up in a discussion.  Doesn't exist, can't measure it, doesn't matter anyway.

   Still,  it's nice to lay a straight edge on the saw table and see no light coming through (how straight is the straight edge???)

1. 
   JohnWW | May 26, 2006 03:52am | #10

   Amen brother.  I deal with these types of misperceptions all the time.  

   Editors for all the woodworking magazines, not just Fine Woodworking, keep trying to measure things for tool reviews that simply can't be measured with the tools available.  I feel that I've kept our reviews far more realistic than most, but it is a struggle at times to explain to editors why certain things can't be measured, such as why a straightedge and feeler gauges can't tell you everything about a surface's flatness.

   I'm an amateur historian, and occasional practitioner of the classic machinist's techniques for high precision work so I'm very aware of the limitations of measurement and the old and often elegant ways that high precision work was created and checked.

   John White

2. 
   BMilton | May 26, 2006 09:03pm | #12

   On the other hand, it is quite possible to make a piece of glass flat to a quarter wavelength of visible light, and to measure it. Telescope makers have been doing this for centuries. While that's not perfectly flat, it's certainly flatter than you'll ever get a table saw top!

         Bob

    

1. 
   notatexan | May 26, 2006 10:17pm | #13

   Absolutely right.  I have watched tool makers hand lap a large granite surface plate flat to 0.00001" (I think) using the same technique.  I work in a CNC machine shop and the best we can do (measure) is about 0.0005" on a table saw size surface, even with touch probes, coordinate measuring machines, and laser trackers.   I'ts amazing to see how much a heavy piece of metal plate will bend under it's own weight or move with a change of temperature.  Even dust on the surface will throw off measurements.

   I have used dial calipers and a micrometer for measuring dadoes, mortise and tenon parts and it always amazing how much difference 0.005" makes in a joint fit.

   But, checking a table saw flatness to 0.002???? Can't be done, not without special equipment.

1. 
   BMilton | May 27, 2006 06:31pm | #14

   A table saw flat to .002" probably isn't possible - or even reasonable. Is it possible to get a piece of wood that flat? Maybe momentarily, but I'd expect wood movement would destroy that degree of flatness quickly. So a table saw need not be that flat, IMO.

        Bob

    

2. 
   dukeone | May 28, 2006 04:57pm | #15

   Hello: Kind of on the same subject: My shop floor is far from flat and I have to move all my equipment around on mobile bases or other wheeled contraptions. The table saw suffers the most from this as it's separate wings need to be adjusted often. I understand that only a moderate amount of flatness is achievable or necessary, I use a 36" machinists straight edge with a flashlight behind it to approximate "flat", tighten the bolts as much as reasonable but it still gets out of alignment every couple of months. Is there a cure for this other then a new shop floor(or a new shop building!)? It is a DeWalt 746 with rolling table at left and 50" extension on the right.Thanks, KDMKenneth Duke Masters

   The Bill of Rights December 15 1791 NRA Endowment Member

   LEAA Life Member

   CRPA Member

3. 
   lwj2 | May 28, 2006 08:11pm | #16

   Are the bolts through or tapped?If they're through bolts, try aircraft washers behind the head and the nut, if tapped, you're stuck with using only one at the bolt head, you may have to purchase longer bolts to use them.lwjLeon

4. 
   dukeone | May 29, 2006 12:59am | #17

   Leon: Some are bolts/nuts others are tapped holes. By aircraft washers do you mean "cupped" washers? KDMKenneth Duke Masters

   The Bill of Rights December 15 1791 NRA Endowment Member

   LEAA Life Member

   CRPA Member