Greetings
I’ve been talking to myself for a while about this and I’m getting tired of the conversation.
I’m trying to think of a reason why I should *not* upgrade to a Sawstop. I got my first table saw about 2.5 years ago, a DeWalt job site (7491) and it’s been fantastic for me. Since then I’ve added a good collection of hand planes (LN and Veritas), a planer (DW735), a bandsaw (Laguna 14BX), a Jet cyclone dust collect (1.5hp), a router/table and a drill press. I’m loving woodworking, and it’s clearly not a “phase”. My tools are all better than me, but I don’t mind punching above my weight. I’ll grow into them. I have 30-35 years left on the planet, most of them in retirement 🙂
I’ve attached some pics of what I’ve built so far, just for context on where I am. The biggest things were a blanket chest and a table and (later) hutch for said table. But I’ve tended towards small things (sturdy stool, stylish serving tray–both FWW plans) as I build skills/experience.
I want to get back into bigger things (hanging cabinets, tables), and things that might be more demanding in terms of precision. I could probably make do with the table saw I have. But when I got the bandsaw, my thinking was, I know I’m going to get one sooner or later, why not get one sooner and enjoy it longer? The same logic would seem to apply to a SawStop (I’m not really considering any other brands).
I’m fortunate enough to have the funds and a supportive mrs, so there are no issues there. Space is more of an issue, but I can make adjustments for that.
Other than the Puritan blood that mysteriously boils in my veins, is there a reason not to go ahead with this? Are there things I’m not considering or should be thinking about?
I thinking of the PCS 1.75 HP with 36″ T-glide fence and ICS mobile base. Haven’t figured out dust collection options yet.
Thanks for indulging me. There are plenty of posts about upgrading a table saw, but until I make it personal, they don’t feel “real” to me.
Neal
Replies
We have similar tastes. I have the same DC, BS, and a Dewalt 733 planer.
I started out with a Craftsman radial arm saw for a very long time. When I started to have too many bad dreams about missing fingers, I "upgraded" to a very cheap Delta portable 10" TS for a couple of years, and then a Ridgid contractor saw for about 15 years. Much better than previous saws,but notgreat.
I just a week ago got a new Sawstop set up. 3HP PCS with 36" fence and ICS mobile base. I got the router table wing option as well.
If I could have afforded it sooner, I would have, without hesitation. The difference in quality, capabilities, and safety is like night and day.
If you think you are into woodworking for the long haul, and have the means, do it now. You should upgrade to the 3hp motor though. And if there are other options, such as the router table, do it now. My experience is that accessories for tools become hard to find down the road as models change.
Thanks John. The 3hp and router table were on my list of ponderings. My electrician is going to get back to me midweek on cost for 220 (only have 110 in shop).
Left to right, how much footprint should I budget with router table (table itself and space needed to use it)? One of the reasons I’m going for ICS mobility is because space will be an issue. Am hoping the ICS really lets you spin it around fairly easily.
I can measure the total footprint. But the size of the 36 inch PCS is the same with or without the router table option. The router table and accompanying cast wing replaces a plywood extention table, so the net length is the same.
You end up with 3 cast wings and a cast router table, rather than 2cast wings and a plywood table. I'd guess the total weight is well over 600 pounds. Shipping weight was 695. And it moves around effortlessly on the ICS base. Really. 4 or 5 foot pumps and you can spin it in circles. Much better than the PCS base.
Do you have a dedicated 20 amp circuit in the shop? If you have a single 20 ampoutlet on a circuit, switching it from 120 to 240 is about 10 minutes work for an electrician.
I will disagree with you that any electrician can convert a 120V outlet to 240V. American electrical service does not work that way. A 240V circuit will require a 2 pole breaker and a dedicated line to wherever the panel is.
That's why I asked if the shop already HAS a dedicated circuit. If it does, all it requires is swapping the outlet at one end, and swapping a single pole for a double pole breaker at the panel, then moving the former neutral to the 2nd pole. It really is that easy, IF it is a dedicated circuit. Ten minutes, tops.
Thanks John, that’s good to know about router table and makes it’s more appealing. I haven’t looked at it that closely yet.
I do have a dedicated 20 amp circuit. My main workshop is the basement of a 14x18 addition that we had built in 2010. About the same time I got my table saw, my electrician came in and added a sub panel and a bunch of outlets (everything is 20 amp circuits). We’ll see what he says. I’m fearless with plumbing, but I don’t mess with electricity. I go pro all the way.
If the subpanel is right in the shop it's an easy job to have him wire a new outlet for a 240v saw. Use the existing dedicated line for the dust collector. No matter what tools you run, the dust collector is always going. But for everything else, you'll only run one other tool at a time.
If it's not a question of money place the order today. I would suggest the 3hp if it's in the budget and you have the electrical power necessary.
The difference in having a true table saw versus a job site saw will enhance the quality of your work with its better stability and build quality, not to mention the safety factor.
My son is working with a DeWalt job site saw after years of using my Delta Unisaw and he laments not investing in a better saw.
Thanks Esch. The DW has been truly good to me, but even without experience on a solid table saw, it feels kind of rickety/rattle-y. A 400 lb table saw is going to be quite shocking to me I’m sure.
“[Deleted]”
Neal--I bought a SawStop (1.75 PCS, T-glide fence, and mobile base) about three years ago and love it. I am retired and woodworking is one of my main hobbies. For me the 1.75 hp PCS is more than adequate. I have cut plenty of 8/4 oak and maple, and 2 1/2" doug fir with ease. I wired mine for 220, but the saw will work fine with 110v as long as you have a dedicated 20A circuit.
If you have the money and can make the space get the 3 HP.
You have 30 more years of this and it will last forever.
I bought a 3 HP Jet TS 20 years ago and zero thought ever about changing it. I’ll have it until I die and I expect my boy will be happy to inherit it.
I’m ripping 8/4 maple with ease.
Mike
I put an alert on Craigslist for "sawstop" a couple years ago. I got a bunch of junk notices, then got an alert for a 3HP PCS for $2000. I lucked out and was the first caller. I sent him a deposit and drove over there and bought it the same day. The guy could have sold it 20 times that first day. I've owned it for almost a year and never received a similar alert.
It's a great saw, far superior to the Grizzly I replaced. It is a bit more trouble to use. When I use an 8" dado blade I have to change the brake - not a big deal but it takes a couple minutes. Also, the saw really cares when you cut wet wood. My only brake trigger so far happened with wet wood, not my digits.
The peace of mind I get with the flesh detection technology eases my mind and my wife's. The superior quality makes me smile.
I can't speak to the 1.75HP model. My 3HP works great.
Hold out your hand and fold down a finger, just look at it for a minute.
Buy the sawstop.
Exactly!
Hello Neal,
Some nice pieces there.
If you're after precision there's two main paths you can tread - either or both.
The first is to buy high quality power tools that are well-jigged and themselves precise in operation. You learn to use their many facilities and they automatically provide you with precise results if you operate them knowledgeably.
The other path is to use tools that are less-jigged (which might include hand tools but also lesser quality power tools) and learn to overcome their foibles in order to make them do precise work.
Both are worth the effort - although personally I prefer learning the extra motor skills that hand tools require over learning how to ride the bucking bronco of a cheap and nasty bandsaw or router. :-)
So, what provides the precision in a power tool or woodworking machine? It's obvious things like good bearings, well-finished castings, proper assembly & set-up, well (or even over) engineered moving parts. But it's also the overall design.
My impression of traditional US table saws is that they've got stuck in an evolutionary market niche where they have enough survival power to fill that niche but, in doing so, prevent better designs getting a toe hold there. The traditional US unisaw design lacks the integrated sliding carriage.......
Sawing involves as much cross-cutting as it does ripping. A good table saw should do both and do them precisely. US saws can rip precisely. The cross cutting tends to employ a mitre gauge sliding in a slot or a great big sled-jig you have to build yourself. These arrangements lack capacity, ease of use and ... precision.
A typical European table saw with a sliding carriage can cross cut anything up to a full 8ft X 4ft sheet. It can do it to a precision of 0.05mm and dead square. You don't have to wrestle a ginormous MDF jig (that you also had to make yourself) on to the saw to do it. The sliding carriage is just there.
Consider this example in a FWW article.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/09/25/hammer-k3-winner-31x48-tablesaw-review
In Europe and the UK, such saws are the norm and very good examples can be found at half the price of that Hammer-K3. And that's the rub in the US - there seems no real market for such saws there because of the continued dominance of the unisaw design.
But saw-stop do seem to have an add-on that may match the EU-style sliding carriages.
https://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/sliding-crosscut-table.
What a difference to your woodworking opportunities such a sliding carriage table saw makes. If you can afford it, buy it.
Lataxe
That’s great context on TS design, thank you Lataxe. I do use my TS for a lot of cross cuts, and don’t enjoy the heavy clunky MDF sleds I made for them (one for regular blade, one for dado). I now know they don’t have to be heavy and clunky, but when I made them The Internet told me heavy clunky was the way to go. I don’t really enjoy my sled-less Icra v27 miter gauge either. It’s a whole lot better than the stock miter gauge that came with the saw, but there still seems to be a little slop and it just doesn’t “feel” precise.
I saw the accessory sliding table available through Sawstop, but haven’t heard much chatter about it online. Perhaps the price tag scares people away ($1200 usd). I love the thought of it though.
FYI there are some nice pics of it and a little review here:
https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/11/08/a-couple-months-with-a-saw-stop-slider/
Neal
I didn't even consider the sliding table, or a euro machine. I just don't have the room. I can barely squeeze by some things as it is. I don't have room to crosscut pieces longer that about 4 feet on the table saw. So I just adapted to do things differently. Almost all if my crosscutting is on the Kapex. If I need to crosscut really wide, shorter bits, I use the tablesaw with the fence.
But if I had ample room, the sliding table would be intriguing.
My personal experience. I could have gotten by with my old rickety saw for what I expected to do for the next several years. It was OK. But I decided to pull the trigger on a new better saw. Suddenly everything I did was better. Cuts were straighter (better fence), a miter gauge let me give up on my inaccurate miter saw, and I had improved safety as well. So I am more confident now, and spend less time "adjusting" things to fit. If the money is there, do it.
Neal - I have been fortunate, much like you, to be able to afford nice tools as I have gotten into the hobby. I also think I have some of that Puritan blood, lol, and thinking we are probably close in skill levels. Writing to confirm for you based on my experience, if you have any doubt left, that there is no reason not to get a Sawstop! I have PCS 3hp with ICS mobile. Top notch, incredible machine and customer care. If rewire/wiring is at all feasible, would highly recommend you go for the 3hp. I have the 36 inch model. The router table wasn’t available when I purchased mine a few years back and I invested in a standalone Kreg which is ok but wish sawstop would have had their attachment when I bought mine! If you are going to be moving the saw a lot, you might consider the outfeed attachment which folds down. I don’t move mine, so built a stationary from a FWW article. About a month back, Harvey started promoting a sliding table....it appears to fit sawstop without cutting the rails (sawstop didn’t offer this either at the time so I’d have to retrofit their rail) so I’ve been contemplating that as an option. A sliding table seems like a wonderful thing for anyone with the room. Personally, I take the approach that incremental costs of attachments features helps to optimize the initial big investment in a machine....gives me a rationale excuse to them load up. Recommend getting the dado brake, extra brakes right upfront to have on hand. You can make zero clearance inserts, or get from sawstop, but infinity tools has a very nice sawstop insert model that uses swappable/ replaceable inserts - it works very well. If it’s financially viable for you, I don’t think you will regret the 3hp or adding features.
thanks, this is very helpful! An extra brake and dado brake are definite add-ons. I saw the outfeed attachment and it seems very nice and convenient. I'll stew on that, just like I'm stewing on everything else, ha. Unfortunately my bench is too high to serve as outfeed. If I want to use bench I'll have to chop its legs (it's the Chris Schwarz "two-day workbench" that took me two weeks to build...it's not expensive or fancy so I don't mind chopping it)
Thanks for feedback, it's helpful to hear from similarly-situated people.
I bought the 1.75 HP x 36 in fence about four months ago. Get the good mobile base as I did.
Get the sawstop. It is a good machine. I have the 1.75hp PCS, 36in T glide and the PCS base. I've almost never felt starved for power (good thin kerf blade). If I were a pro perhaps I'd get comfortable enough to feed material fast enough to bog it down (dust collection helps too). The 3 HP would be nice but I don't regret the 1.75.
When I upgraded it was from a 90 era delta. It was underpowered and almost impossible to get the fence set mostly parallel to the blade. I sent it to the junk yard as I couldn't let someone else use it. I need my fingers for my day job, and the price is about the same as a similar caliber saw (Powermatic was my comparable)
The extra brakes are one-time buys. SS's r&d program sends you a new brake cartridge if you fill out the paperwork and send back the triggered one for them to download data. I have sent one back and recieved a new replacement. This was just before our current life in Zombieland started, so double check it.
I had no idea. I have much to learn.
I have a 20 year old 5HP 220V Powermatic 66 saw.Still have all my fingers too! I started in a 1200 sq basement shop on GA but moved to CA where I have less space. My 72" Biesmeyer fence has now been chopped to a 19 1/2 wide one as I have moved form large cabinets to smaller projects.
I gave up my Jet 1200 dust collector too and now am thinking about a Oneida Supercell unit if I only had the space.
BTW., the 5HP unit combined with nice sharp Forrest blades and I've never bogged this saw down. 12/4 rock maple cuts like butter!
Had I the room I would get a euro sliding table unit butt jeez! Yhey take up floor space.
Great philosophy. Interest rates are so low there is no point in saving...
If buying a table saw, you need a supportive partner - there is no way you are going to hide one of those down your trousers, or get away with 'this old thing? had it for years...."
Recently, I found myself in a similar position - I wanted to do more accurate work than was possible on a site saw and handling larger stock was dangerous. I had workarounds but I am time-poor due to a busy day job so wanted to go for the big one.
What started as a discussion over which sawstop to buy became one about whether to buy one at all.
In the end I took John_C2's suggestion and looked into Euro Sliders.
These have some notable advantages: Bigger motor (mine is 4HP - almost 20A at 240V so a real 3KW motor), sliding table right next to the blade (awesome for jointing any board less than 1.2m long and 4 inches high) 4 inch cut depth (I have a farmlet so do cut big stock), workflow is very much safer than with a cabinet saw - out of the way of kickback and hands almost always have to be away from the blade. Massive fence capacity. No need for sleds for a lot of cuts but if you need to make one they are dead simple. Blade changes are simple and easy with enough space to get both hands in. Scoring blade for ply (awesome)
They also have notable disadvantages: Build quality is not great for the price (Hammer K3 winner - about three times the SS Pro) very difficult to fit a zero clearance plate. Large space needed to make use of the slider. Mine also has pretty poor dust collection for the price too.
Sawstop also have some special advantages - loads of accessories you can add on piecemeal. A K3 is made to order and can't easily be changed later. Same basic design as is used in almost all youtube videos so you can just do what you see shown. Near zero risk of injury if you do decide to do something stupid.
Do remember that saw injuries are much less common if you don't do non-through cuts and keep the blade guards in place.
Overall though, for my shop where when I am working I need it to be spot on accurate and fast, safe and repeatable, the K3 Winner is an awesome saw.
I do wonder sometimes if I should have bought the Sawstop, so don't think this is an ad for Felder, but if I were in a production shop, there is no way I'd lose the slider option. The time saved on jointing alone is worth every cent. The SS Slider does not give you this option - it would be ok for sheet goods, but really it's an afterthought. For someone who does big stuff and hates jointing then being able to joint a board within a whisker of gluable in a single pass is gold. Still, had I bought a sawstop, I'd still be a very happy chappie.
A fully-featured table saw with a right hand extension table, a rear take-off table and a left-hand sliding carriage can take up a big footprint. But even in a small workspace there are ways to configure some of these saws. Mine is a Scheppach TS2500 that takes a 10" blade (a slightly larger one, too, for ripping) and has all the above-mentioned parts except the rear take off table. (A beefy adjustable tripod stand suffices in its stead). See pics
The new workshop is half the size of the previous one, yet I can still use both the sliding carriage and the large right-hand extension table. The latter requires that I open the garage door and wheel the huge dust extractor (still connected) outside whilst I do so. Cutting a full sheet of plywood or veneered block board requires that I also wheel the router table outside.
It helps that the right hand extension table folds down to lie near-parallel with the saw cabinet side. It takes a few seconds to raise or lower it, with unfolding & locking struts keeping it dead flat and the fence bar meeting that of the main saw fence bar to be flush and accurate.
This saw is the mainstay of my woodworking and has been for nearly 3 decades now. Along with the planer-thicknesser (planer-jointer in your parlance) it dimensions everything ready for the joint-making, fitting and finishing, now mostly done by hand. It makes life very easy to have a powerful machine that makes everything in the cutting list dead-square with exactly the right width and length.
I know some use a chop saw/mitre saw and/or a panel saw in lieu of a sliding carriage. But these too take up a lot of room - more than the sliding carriage integrated with a table saw, I suspect. And you have to set them up, as well as setting up the table saw to do the ripping.
So, if you can afford such a fully-featured table saw, get it and reconfigure your workshop around it. In the long run, it'll save you lots of time and (more importantly) frustration by getting you to the detailed woodworking tasks without having to wrestle with compromised tools just to get things dimensioned accurately.
Lataxe
Jobsite:3HP Sawstop = Toyota Camry:E Class Benz :-D
This is such a no-brainer. A table saw injury is a dramatic, life altering event. Losing fingers from a dominant hand (or god forbid, a thumb) will dramatically alter everything you do, from driving your car to wiping your derriere.
The piece of mind that a SawStop provides is invaluable. But the deductibles from just one visit to the ER will easily cover the additional cost of a SawStop.
Besides, I've used and owned SawStops since 2005. The Professional Saw is very nice while the Industrial model is, in my not-so-humble opinion, the best cabinet saw on the market.
If SawStop started making a sliding table saw to compete with Altendorf or Martin, I'd almost certainly get one.
Just wanted to post back to say thanks to every one of you, it's great feedback and just the push I needed. I spoke to the mrs. this morning and she's all for it, maybe a little peeved I didn't get it sooner (did I mention I'm fortunate?)
I'm opting for the 3 HP, mostly because of all the upvotes for 3HP but also because of the feedback on the "full kerf blade" thread. Might be a little fear of regret, too (if I get the 1.75hp version I might regret not getting the 3hp edition. If I get the 3hp edition, I'll never regret it). Do I need 3hp? Probably not. But it'll be nice to have. I'm holding off on all accessories, for now, until I get a better sense of needs and space. It might be harder to get these later, but it won't be impossible.
Anyway, thank again. The feedback is invaluable. The expertise and experience here is amazing, matched only by the civility (what's up with that?). Will probably order through woodcraft, to save on shipping. If anyone has any buying tips, I'd love to hear them!
Neal
Going through the "build your saw" pages on the Sawstop website, it lets you choose options, one at a time, but ONLY the options that work together. Option C, for instance, doesn't go with Saw B, etc. The ICS base, which you should definitely get over the PCS base, requires an ICS to PCS conversion kit. If you order a-la-carte somewhere, you might not pick the right iterations. Using their building tool you end up with just what you need, and if you choose one of their online dealers the whole order gets transferred to them as a package, straight through the Sawstop website. I found it easier.
I went with CPO Sawstop, and shipping was free.
thanks John. I used the "build and price tool" quite a bit on the sawstop site, that's very helpful in seeing what's-compatible-with-what (reminding me -- another factor pushing me to the 3HP is that it comes with the "dust collection blade guard", which is an add-of with the 1.75HP model). I ended up saving a PDF of the final package and calling Woodcraft (Walpole). I couldn't get any of the online dealers to not add a freight charge, so I just called Woodcraft and went through it item-by-item with the salesperson. Their total matched the sawstop "build and price" total, so I knew it was right. It might take a little while longer but I'm OK with that.
Thanks for all you help in this!
The folks in Walpole are very helpful. If you get a chance to take a class with Mickey Callahan, you'll be glad you did.
I have the 3 hp Sawstop and only regret I hadn’t purchased it sooner. Excellent cuts and unmatched safety. I hooked it up to an Oneida cyclone dust collector along with all of my other machines. Oneida is made in the USA and offers free layout of your system with the purchase of ductwork.
I started with the same DeWalt table saw. I'm still amazed I got the accuracy out of it that I did. Great little saw, for what it is. But having a solid cast iron top, dead flat, with 3 horses of power, belt driven without that screeching universal motor, zero vibration... It's a no-brainer decision. The table saw is the most important machine in my shop.
I can't speak to the Sawstop, as all my large machines are Grizzly. When I was shopping, I wasn't much interested in Sawstop. For something as critical as a table saw, I'll choose the tried and true every day over the innovative "does everything a little bit different" model.
Whichever brand you go with, get a full size cabinet saw, and don't look back!
Hey Neil,
Over my lifetime, I've owned three T/S. The second was a 3hp Unisaw w/o the riving knife. I had a close call and noticed myself having fearsome respect when ripping, which compromised the joy of the hobby. At 65 I decided to buy the 3hp Sawstop. I wished they had them when I bought the Unisaw. The MLCS router table extension off my Unisaw was a pain to get 'just right', but I survived. I'd recommend getting one made to fit out the box. I have the overarm vacuum guard, but since I invested in two Grrrippers, I can keep my hands safe without it. The first mod I made to it was adding a blade height DRO. Works great for precision depth cuts like tenons, dados, and dovetails.
As far as space is concerned, with the equipment you have already, I think you're gonna be kinda tight. I started with a 13 x 23 footprint and had space problems for a number of years. I built a 6 x 10 extension on one end to house my air compressor, bench grinder, wood heater, and dust collector and an 8 x 13 on the opposite end for my metal working machines, hardware, and mechanic's tools. I have all my woodworking machines on casters and store all of them except the T/S along the long walls. That gives me interior room for four side access to the bench, which is a must. The bench also serves as an outfeed table/extension for the T/S, jointer, planer, router table, slot mortiser, and B/S (w/ height ext.).
Please start planning now which direction you can expand because it looks like you're growing. My experience has taught me a long narrow shop (~14' wide min.) is better for the same sq. footage because it allows long stock flow for machine infeed/outfeed and plenty of wall length for mobile machine staging.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled