Looking for inputs in buying a new table saw. I am setting up a garage workshop. I am aware of the Sawstop superiority, but I know most new saws have better safety now with riving knives that are close to the blade, are not higher than the blade, go up and down and angle with the blade, cast iron, quality fence, etc. Thanks
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Replies
Probably not what you want to hear, but a used cabient saw is much more bang for the buck than buying a new one if you don't want to spend SS money.
Thanks
Well, are other issues a factor - space, mobility, footprint, electricity? Only you can decide what that extra safety feature is worth, to you.
Thanks
For a new cabinet saw, my only choice was a sawstop. It's the only thing that does what it does.
If I had a lot more money and space, I might have considered one of the big sliding table saws. But I had no space for something like that.
If I was low on funds and wanted a big, powerful saw, I would pick something used.
In certain circumstances you might want a smaller, lighter, portable saw. In that case there are a lot of choices.
Thanks
I agree about the SawStop. Was it more money? Yes. Have I ever had a problem cutting myself on a non-SawStop saw? No. But, how stupid would I feel if later I did have an accident and hadn't spent the extra for my safety? I'd feel miserable.
I installed a new SawStop saw a month ago and believe me, I use it as thoughtfully and carefully as my previous saws. I will probably never cause the brake to activate. But if I do, well, I'll be pleased with myself that I had the foresight to buy a saw that protects my precious fingers.
As mentioned by others your need to provide more parameters before anyone can give relevant advice. I will say I think you downplay the value of the Sawstop and take a lot for granted regarding other options. I've been using tablesaws for over 40 years both professionally and as a hobbyist and the only saw I would trade my Unisaw for would be a Sawstop because I have seen all too often the damage a tablesaw can do even with experienced operators.
Thanks
Regardless of new or used, spend the time and effort in 'tuning up and aligning' the saw. There are plenty of resources on this site and on the web to ensure your miter slots, fence, and blade are all properly aligned to efficiently cut and reduce the chance of kickbacks.
Thanks
I own an 25 yr old PM66 and would highly recommend this unit.
just manage to keep ur fingers off the blade and it is a fine value compared to a SawStop.
I do miss the riving knife of modern saws, however.
I know that SawStop users are akin to a cult but I joined the ranks. I am careful and often rehearse a cut to make sure I don't get distracted during the cut. After an employee lost the tips of three fingers working at home I decided I was going to spend the money now before I have an accident. Due to small shop the jobsite version is what I got. It has been a big improvement over what I had. At $1400 it is half what my deducible would be if something bad happened. I feel better having it (peace of mind) and with the over blade dust collection has me actually using my blade guard now.
You also have to consider what you're going to be making. Bigger is not always better if it's overkill. Value is subjective. I'm fine with my contractor saw for what I make these days.
Save up for the sawstop.
When I was first ready to upgrade from my contractor saw that had lots of aftermarket stuff thrown at it to make it workable, I made a list of "gotta haves". I suggest you take the info you are getting here and probably elsewhere and render it down to the same. Mine went something like this:
- Cabinet mounted trunnions (without this, I just moved on)
- A good splitter solution (this was before the US returned to riving knives)
- A good fence (my aftermarket aluminum fence was good, I wanted better)
- Adequate power (I had learned to use low power and thin kerf blades and was willing to accept that).
Your list may be different. Something like:
- Good mobility solution
- Lots of power
- Good depth of table before the blade
It will all depend on what you want to do and how you do it. My, or anyone else's, answer may not be your answer. But they can contribute to the fine tuning of your "gotta haves".
P.s. I also upgraded that saw and now run a Saw Stop 3HP PCS.
This is like telling someone what pickup to buy.
Of course a guy with a $3500 SawStop is going to recommend one. And if you can afford a SS, especially if you’re inexperienced, that’s the one to buy.
Other than that, a used cabinet or contractor saw. I wouldn’t buy a homeowner type saw - the ones in the big box stores. Delta is pretty much gone as a brand. Rigid and all the hybrid saws have there issues.
I would look for a good used 3HP cabinet saw. All the guys buying Sawstops have to do something with them right?
How much do you want to spend? How much use will your tablesaw get? What proportion of timber preparation in your woodworking will employ a table saw?
If the answers are generally "lots" then get a European style saw with a sliding carriage. There is a sawstop version but I don't know what else is available in the USA, especially of reasonable price and size (i.e. not a huge and expensive professional saw).
Why a slider? Here's some short vids that will say more than I can. The saw illustrated is a large Scheppach. I have a smaller one but it works in exactly the same way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6AluEJzGHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFTfjTnamA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNdEs9l2E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDTh3_6rII
Enjoy the Yorky accent! :-)
Lataxe
2 years ago I was wanting to upgrade my contractor saw and was looking to upgrade to a new cabinet saw. I looked at the SS but could not justify the cost. with having to buy a cartridge just for a dado set,and also change this out every time I switched from blade to dado. let alone cutting wet wood and the unit stops ,new blade,new cartridge,ect. the safety is a great idea! like william ng says, safety starts in your head. I bought the delta unisaw, 3hp. with 36" length. for almost half the price of a SS. it is a beautiful cabinet saw, never disappointed in my decision. I use this saw daily. take a look at one, you will be impressed with the quality and the price!
If you are handy find a used Delta Unisaw and restore it. There is a large community out there who do this and ANYTHING you want for it can be made up. (other than saw stop capability) I use a 9" 1973 Rockwell Delta and while I love the stability of a heavy iron cabinet, nothing substitutes for a larger blade that can make a single cut on a 4x4. (which the 9" blade cannot do) As for the safety aspects, while it is true a saw stop can prevent a cut off finger the key in safety is to not even get to the point where that might even happen. Bandsaws are equally good at slicing off fingers but nobody is telling you to throw away your perfectly good bandsaw for a saw-stop bandsaw. Same with saw-stop drill presses (which also don't exist) and saw-stop shapers and freehand shaping is a heck of a lot more dangerous IMHO.
My take on table saw accidents in talking to people is the biggest contributors are - dull blades people are trying to push through "one last cut" - saws with lightweight cabinets (like all the asian junk at Home Depot) that allow the saw when it jams to throw itself off the table (quite a site if you have ever seen it happen) - inadequate space around the saw (saws jammed along the wall because people don't want to devote the shop space to them) and rushing to complete a job. If you make a pact with yourself not to go down those rabbit holes you will not have problems with your tablesaw or any other tool.
It's kind of a ridiculous argument, since no one makes a Sawstop anything except for table saws.
Sure, shapers are extremely dangerous. They don't cause anywhere near as man accidents as table saws, because there are probably 1,000 tablesaws for every shaper out there. And it's not the drillbit that causes accidents on a drill press, it's the workpiece itself that will smack you.
Saying that people can easily avoid catastrophic tablesaw injuries runs contrary to all the facts. There ARE tens of thousands of those injuries out there. Your arguments read like the people that stomped their feet when airbags in cars were mandated. Turns out, they do protect people, and at a very small long term cost. Like Sawstops.
I've never had an airbag or a Sawstop cartridge go off. But if either one ever does, I'll thank God I had them, put on clean underwear, and gladly pay for a new airbag or cartridge.
John,
+1 (or even 10) to that!
There is a lot of misunderstanding concerning humans about, eh? Many think that a human can be a perfect rational decider if he or she just chooses to be so. This is a queer proposition from The Enlightenment, during which many fellows of a philosophical bent got carried away with the notion of rationality.
In reality, we humans are fallible items, driven by many things that we don't control (as well as by some things that we do control). In practice, any human can have an accident in which the human acts with this expectation but reality produces an alternative result.
Why can't the perfectionists recognise this? All around them, the human world demonstrates the lesson that we humans are fallible, every second of the day!
The probable answer is that the perfectionist has a head filled with the memes of a certain ideology, boiled down out of some Enlightenment philosopher's daft musings about the world and everything in it being some sort of logical machine that just needs setting up right. Ha! :-)
Lataxe
And, it is possible to do everything right, and still come out on the losing end.
There is a sports metaphor here, which I hate. "The other player won because he wanted it more." No. And keeping all your fingers because you want them more isn't a thing either.
+10^10. We’re surrounded by absurd claims of how outcome is determined primarily by desire. Another of which is the patently ridiculous, “You can be anything you want to be if you just work hard enough.”
Granted, there are motivational concerns at play, but the simple truth is that Dirty Harry was right about one thing: “A man’s gotta know his limitations.” And that means accepting them, working within them, etc. This includes the proclivity towards doing stupid things that we all share, though perhaps not always to the same degree. There really are deniers of Darwinian principles out there that manage to survive long enough to procreate and produce more head-shaking moments.
I don’t have a SawStop machine, but I made the choice I did knowing that this entails a very real added daily risk. As a counter-measure, I train myself to work to an exact pattern carefully thought through and prepared in order to minimize the risk of injury or worse.
I would not begin to suggest that my own practice is that which should be taken up and followed by all others. Nor would I suggest that reliance on a single measure of technology, however nigh miraculous, should be allowed to become an excuse to relax other safety practices.
SawStop makes, by virtually all reports, an excellent machine. Given the myriad factors in play in making a choice about purchase of a table saw, it becomes doubtful at the least that their machines will always be the best or preferred choice of every woodworker. But they deserve serious consideration, without minimizing what they do.
Circling back here.. if you do end up in the used market, I would pass on the Steel City brand. They folded years ago and better products are available.
I would add any defunct or new and unknown brand to your warning. I've seen lots of brands come and go, and seen lots of people trying, and failing, to get parts or accessories that work. Unless it's a popular brand with a long track record, one of those makers is going to end up costing you. More than a small initial savings will save.
Living in Europe the Sawstop PCS is not available. There is a Festool alternative, but thats even more expensive. I did look at importing one (still am, setting a little aside every month), but I will still have the issue of 50hz vs 60hz warranty etc etc so might not happen.
I cannot fit a sliding table saw (like the Hammer) in my shop, its also more expensive than importing a saw stop so I ended up with a Laguna Fusion 3 which I think is about ~30% of the price of a Saw Stop in the US.
The Fusion has plenty of power (3HP), good cast iron top, a sturdy fence and decent dust collection. What more do you need?
However, if I lived in North America was, say, upgrading from a contractor style saw to a cabinet saw and had the money to spend I would get a Saw Stop.
Can Laguna Fusion accept dado blades?
If the answer is yes, then share your experience of it.
Marius_78-I am very interested in the Laguna. trying to decide between the F2 and F3. Can give me some feedback on the F3? Much appreciated!
I dont have much to compare to as my previous saw was an 8" table saw.
There are also some differences between the CE (European Model) and the one available in the US - some I don't understand.
Motor:
Firstly the 3HP motor cuts beautifully. Ran some 8/4 oak yesterday and there are no issues there. Plenty of power. As with all induction motors it runs nice and quiet. Blade comes to full stop within 10 seconds (this might be a CE requirement).
Table top:
Nice and large, mirror finish. Wings came preinstalled. I had to slightly tap/clamp them level. Mitre slots are nicely machined and bevelled. The CE model does not have the mitre slot at equal distance from the blade, I might be picky, but I wish they did.
Fence:
T-style fence, easy to adjust and slides great. Locks down firmly. The aluminium extrusion works as it should. I know some people say the fence should run beyond the table, I have not had any issues. You can extend the alu extrusion backwards (towards you) allow for a reference if ripping down sheet goods whish is nice. Also you can use it as a stopblock together with mitre gauge. As the alu extrusion is your fence, if you set the fence to 3", but your piece against it you can easily make repeated cuts with your mitre gauge. No need to pull out a 1-2-3 block or similar.
The only downside is that the twist knobs to fasten/loosen the alu extrusion prevents you from making a jig that slides on both sides of the fence (i.e. tenoning jig), but there are other jigs that can ride in the mitre slot etc to overcome this.
Dust collection:
Again, it works. Once a month I do open the machine and vacuum inside. When using the supplied overhead dust collection it does a pretty good job and collecting dust - especially nice if cutting MDF.
Mitre gauge:
This is one difference from CE to North America. The supplied mitre gauge I got is not the same as shown in US for the Fusion 3, and I don't know why. The only reason I can think of was to make it cheaper. It sits on the shelf. There was a lot of play in the mitre slot and does not allow for adjustments to the mitre slot. I believe the US version does. I use an Incra Model.
Supplied blade:
Sits on the shelf. I use CMT blades.
Did I forget anything? I can try and snap some images this evening.
Thanks for the update. I am torn between the F2 rewired for 220 and the F3. I have been using an old Delta saw for the last 30 years and figure its time to move on and get some safety features and dust collection on the saw. I have a Laguna bandsaw which is sweet so I figured the tablesaw will be as well made. I am thinking I would have to upgrade the mitre gauge. My current saw really struggles ripping 6/4 maple I have-I was gifted about 300bf of the stuff so this is not going away. Appreciate you taking the time to respond.
I have the Laguna 1412, it is a sweet machine.
I'm not a Laguna fan boy, its just that not to many products are available here at the same price point. And I feel the Laguna products offer a lot of bang for the buck.
Have you tried a thin kerf blade on your delta? It might make ripping a little easier.
But like I mentioned earlier, if you can afford a Saw Stop (even if it means waiting a few months) I would go for one. There is nothing wrong with the Laguna, as a table saw I am sure its on par with the Saw Stop. But the added safety feature on the Saw Stop just makes sense.
Like someone mentioned above. If you were buying a car and your budget was $15000 and the dealer said for $17000 you get airbags......would you not get them?
FWIW I ordered and received an F2-which is sitting in my garage. The unit was sent with out the correct parts to allow the bevel gear to elevate the blade. Laguna customer services has been good-parts are on the way. I did wire 220 for the saw so it will be a week until I get it all together and have feedback on the saw.
Informative one.
Thanks mate!
Slider all the way if you can do it, I have a 9' in a 24x24 no problem. even a short stroke Hammer would be better than a cabinet saw
While on the subject of flesh sensing technology: Wikipedia’s article on SawStop is a worthy read. Appears Steve Gass tried it out on his own finger..
that was interesting, thanks for suggestion. I was wondering about patent expiration, and see now, there are ~100 of them! That'll keep the attorneys busy for a while.
Perhaps I will be much maligned for saying this, but I don't know why they don't charge more. I don't know this first-hand, but apparently the saw is superb in almost every way, assembly instructions are extremely helpful (with parts packaged to make it easy), and customer service is top notch. And clearly, people will pay for safety. Commercial shops can justify the cost with reduced litigation/workman's comp expenses. Maybe I'm overestimating demand (I'm not a businessman, or a Sawstop spokesman, ha).
For a lot of years, they had trouble selling Sawstops. There was too much "anti-mask sentiment", for lack of a better term. The inventor made it worse with his heavy handed attempts to get congress to pass legislation that would have effectively made Sawstops the only saws available. Woodworkers really didn't like being told what they could do.
Competitors refused to license the technology, probably because they were afraid of being sued for their non-Sawstop saw injuries.
Eventually, people became aware of how good the saws were, flesh sensing aside. I got to use one at a class at Connecticut Valley, and was duly impressed.
They really seemed to take off 4 years ago when Festoolbought them out.
ouch. I don't think consumers respond well to heavy handed.
What's next for them, any idea? higher-end table saws? flesh-sensing miter saw or circ saw?
Good question. I hadn't heard about anything new.
Assuming a sliding table saw is not being considered...Sawstop. Period. End of discussion.
They added a slider accessory...perhaps testing the waters?
I love my Hammer K3 Winner (sliding saw)
It is an outstanding saw, and has the added ability of being sort of moveable if needed. Wheel kit is an inexpensive optional extra.
The footprint is manageable with the sliding table stowed and the mitre gauge stored. I have an extension fence which allows rips up to half sheet but it can also be had with a smaller extension fence. Every saw is made to order to meet your specific requirements.
With a 4 inch depth of cut and really good precision, I can joint a piece of timber up to the full 4 inches in a single pass.
Truing up plywood (up to a half-sheet on my version) is a matter of a few seconds' work - 4 perfectly square sides in less than half a minute.
Sleds are pretty much un-needed as there is a mega-sled built in.
Perfect cuts in laminate and ply with a scoring blade (optional extra)
Blade changes are a snip.
My only real grouse is that the blade guard is a pain to fit properly and zero clearance plates are very difficult to make. If I am doing a lot of small parts, I usually plop a scrap of 2mm MDF on top of both the blade and the slider, which easily fixes the issue.
Price is more or less two Sawstops. If like me you are busy/lazy and want things to work really quickly, it's worth it. The sawstop sliding table is not a patch on a proper sliding saw. Unless the table is really close to the blade, it's only really useful for big boards. If you want sliding table functionality, buy a proper slider, don't add bolt-ons.
Rob,
There's still a resistance to sliding table cabinet saws in the USA. Perhaps a greater factor is that all of the (few) sliding table saws that are available in the USA are expensive.
Why have US WW retailers not sought to import the far less expensive (yet still highly precise) sliders available? Why has no US manufacturer designed and commissioned their own made-as-a-slider saw? It's a mystery - although US manufacturers seem split between those with high innovation and those with an often stultifying inertia or resistance to change.
**********
I'd quibble with one thing you remarked in the above post - "Unless the table is really close to the blade, it's only really useful for big boards".
There are many European sliders that have what's effectively an add-on sliding table and carriage albeit designed to be more integral with the saw than is the saw-stop add-on. These don't have the table sliding right next to the blade yet work very well; and very precisely indeed.
My own is a Scheppach TS2500 (not available in the US) of typical design. As one of the videos about it's bigger brother demonstrates, the add-on slider works very well but (like the drop-down right-hand extension table) can be quickly removed to give the saw a footprint equal to a typical US cabinet saw. Here's the vid (1 min 35 secs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNdEs9l2E4
In the photos attached, you see mine with the right hand table dropped but the 2 metre sliding table and carriage mounted. The table isn't right next to the saw blade but can be adjusted very precisely to ride a fraction of a millimetre above (and otherwise square & co-planer with) the saw table.
The design of the carriage is such that even a quite heavy plank or board sticking out to the left doesn't bend or tilt the table. Very precise cross-cuts can be made to 0.1mm accuracy. De-mounting and re-mounting of the carriage also retains the exact settings it has with reference to the saw blade and main table. When mounted, the cross-cut fence can be swung out of the way to allo unimpeded ripping.
If one wished, even a home-made mitre box could be used, via the two T-slots on the main -table. I rarely use those but have a hard maple slider in them for occasional use and to keep the sawdust out.
******
I don't know if the sawstop sliding carriage of similar design can be set up to the same precision but it does get good reviews from various US magazines and websites.........
Lataxe
Totally agree - what you lose with the bigger gap is the ability to joint narrower stock without an MDF or ply extension.
On the hammer the gap is about quarter of an inch so there is no need to use a sled to joint stock.
You still get the advantage of being able to square up ply very fast.
The only T-Slot on my saw is on the slider itself. This is cool as you just have to bolt a piece of ply onto it and you have an instant sled.
Rob, you may find some ideas for both a ZCI and accessories for the Hammer K3 slider on my website. I have also built them for the Hammer N4400 bandsaw.
Index page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/index.html
Incidentally, to the OP, some years ago now I was in a position to upgrade my contractor saw, which I had used for 25 years, to a new super duper table saw. One choice was the top-of-the-range Sawstop. It is a wonderful saw, both in detail and construction. After side-by-side comparisons, I ended up with a short stroke Hammer K3 (1250mm slider - I work with solid wood, so this is perfect). It will change the way you look at table saws. I would also argue that it is safer than a SS! No regrets.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Good tips, thanks.
I use a scrap of MDF bolted to the slider for the zero clearance. I'm working on recycling bottle tops as UHMW chunks so may give that a go!
Can this table saw accept dado blades?
If yes, share your experience on it.
Yes - You need to buy the Felder set which is expensive but superb. The only issue I have with it is the minimum dado is about 8mm - about 3/8 so you can't use it to cut a 6mm or 1/4 inch slot.
The process is a little clunky - you have to remove the throat plate and the shim on the arbor for the blade, then add the dado stack.
This adds a little time. On the plus side, with the big access space, the job is not uncomfortable.
The dado blades interlock with each other and use carbide inserts which are replaceable, so should have an indefinite lifespan. This does make it a little hard to calculate the dado size exactly, so a little sneaking up on the fit is needed for the inexperienced.
I paid NZD850 for my dado set so probably about USD500.
So, I'd love to have had the space and $$ for a sliding table.
This is clearly the superior solution.
However I find the SawStop argument to be a bit of a religious discussion.
My PM66 has along history of good use. No need to change a good design.
Sure, SS has a market, but it isn't my market.
Good safety practices, and a sharp blade have served me well these last 30 years. A push stick is the best safety device you can use, plus a SS wont prevent kickback... which is the only thing I've had to deal with.
Mostly agree.
I think that in non-commercial settings there is a tendency not to become complacent, and there is far less pressure to work when too tired to do so safely.
The problem is that there is a lack of good data about who gets injured and under what conditions. There is a lot about what bit of the saw causes the injury but not so much about the externalities of injury.
That having been said, confirmation bias leads to other similarly unhelpful perspectives - "I have never had a crash so I don't need to wear my seat belt" for instance.
Thing is, you don't need safety equipment until you wish you'd used it.
I only considered a sawstop due to the awesome quality reviews - the blade safety thing was a nice to have but not a winner for me. In the end I bought a fancy slider and could not be happier - so many advantages, including fundamentally safer methods of work. I'll regret my choice though if I lose a finger.
The safety aspect of TS design is a tricky thing, as is the design of any technological preventative safety measure. One often unconsidered aspect is that a machine with increased safety features can result in the user becoming over-confident, and consequently careless, in operating the machine.
"This belt/bag/guard/helmet/or whatever makes me safe so I can take more risk".
Often the extra risks taken far outweigh the ability of the safety device to prevent the harm that a realised-risk can do. An infamous example is the use of a polystyrene bicycle helmet, which reduces the risk of a concussion from a light blow but is no protection whatsoever in a road traffic accident. Yet wearers often assume it is and take far more risks when cycling in traffic.
Another effect is that users of safety equipment adopt more risky procedures , thinking it safe to do so when it isn't, then pass their bad habits on to others. Or transfer the risk elsewhere.
An infamous example is that of car drivers who have seat belts, ABS brakes, always-on sidelights and airbags and thus feel more protected ... so take more risks. They themselves are more protected in their more frequent crashes - but the pedestrian or horse rider they hit isn't.
You can imagine normal TS safety procedures fading somewhat in workshops that have sawstop machines......
***********
It's often said by road traffic investigators that the best safety device in a car would be a large spike in the middle of the steering wheel. It would induce drivers to drive far more carefully.
Perhaps - but there are plenty who will assume that they are perfect drivers so aren't at risk from the spike. I believe this occurs with US tablesaws that traditionally lack guards, riving knives blade brakes and fences that have a face ending before the back of the blade is reached by the leading end of the workpiece.
"Don't need no steenkin' safety device". (Off comes a finger or three, eventually).
*******
There's probably a happy medium. European TS have had riving knives with properly functioning fences and blade brakes for ages, so the accident rate is correspondingly much lower than that of the US. There might be a case to say the sawstop mechanism is over-protective for EU saws.
But the EU still has TS incidents and accidents so maybe sawstop should become part of a compulsory legislation in the way that car seat belts and brakes are compulsory?
Nevertheless, someone will find some kind of risk to take, one day, that gets 'round the sawstop mech, so they cut their fingers off anyway! Humans are ingenious when it comes to harming ourselves. :-)
Lataxe
I think it's hardly a religious discussion, it's scientific. Humans aren't perfect and make mistakes. Period. Some times those mistakes can cost people fingers on a table saw. I'm not aware of a single lost finger to a SawStop. Speculation about how people treat safety on a saw like that is just that, speculation. Reattaching a finger or two will cost a lot more than the saw. It's just silly.
Having lived with a 3hp PCS with the blade guard dust collection for about 5 years now I have to disagree with the complacency/confidence hypothesis offered by Lataxe.
First, the ease of use of the blade guard and riving knife (both stored onboard within easy reach) means I do not hesitate to swap between them. Instead of trying a skinny rip with the guard up I'll make the 10-second swap.
The dust collection guard means I am not squinting or turning my face away and makes the likelyhood of opting FOR it that much greater.
The flesh-sensing safety device has the opposite effect described above. I am hyper-aware of where my fingers are, not just from a saw safety perspective but also from the economic penalty of the slightest mis-step. I am more likely to jig a hold down rather than try that tricky small cut, even when using a sled.
I operated my old iron contractor saw for 25 years without the guard before my right thumb made it to the blade. It got there because my back foot slipped on some sawdust, not because of an unsafe setup. (unless you count the missing guard)
There is nothing a perfect driver can do to keep from being T-boned by a not so perfect driver (aslo from experience) so that argument against safety doesn't track for me. Is there anyone out there that has not had a phone ring or a spouse shout down the stairs without thinking "Hey, that sounds like a tablesaw" first?
The blanket statement that "users of safety equipment adopt more risky procedures , thinking it safe to do so when it isn't, then pass their bad habits on to others. Or transfer the risk elsewhere." is ludicrous or we'd all be better off with zero safety equipment in all phases of life.
Buy a sawstop, don't buy a sawstop, make your choice, whatever. To try to downplay the safety advantages based on random thoughts and unsubstantiated theories is dangerous in itself. Talk about the transfer of risk!
Table saw industry lobbyists used the same argument against Sawstop's attempts to legislate new safety regulations. It's the same argument that Lowell mill owners were making against safety measures almost 200 years ago. And car manufacturers opposing seatbelts, air bags, etc. It's a ludicrous argument, is only intended to fatten the wallets of those arguing against safety.
You lads! Why is everything so binary with yous? :-)
Risk (over)compensation is now an accepted fact of human life, measured by endless studies of behaviour in relation to safety aids. The first in connection with cars was by Volvo, following their introduction of always-on sidelights, supposedly to ensure their cars were visible to others earlier than heretofore.
Hoping to prove that their always on sidelights reduced accidents, they were surprised to find (when they counted then up) that Volvo drivers of the new always-lit-up cars actually had MORE accidents, overall Subsequent investigations revealed the taking of greater risks by SOME of these drivers because they thought they were safer.
Endless other similar studies indicate the same syndrome following the introduction of safety features to this or that. ...............
But this doesn't mean that EVERY user of such an aid takes greater risks. In practice, those already inclined to take risks (and have more ""accidents") are those induced by a feeling of greater safety to take far more risks.
So, a seat belt or a sawstop is worth having for those who might have genuine accidents - i.e. those unfortunate events that cannot be foreseen or avoided by the even the most careful behaviour.
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What if the sawstop finger-loss prevention events were added to the number of overall TS accidents? I suspect the overall total would be higher, as some (only some) sawstop owners will take more risks with their TS because they know they can't lose a finger.
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My argument is not against safety aids. Personally I think that overall they're a good thing. But it's naive to think that every safety aid only acts to reduce "accidents". In many cases the "accidents" increase but the safety aid means the harm from the "accidents" reduces.
Not a black & white for-or-against issue, then. Just like so many other issues that folk want to be far simpler than they are.
Perhaps I will wear a T-shirt when posting here, like that I bought my 11 year old grand daughter for her last birthday. It reads: "I think you'll find it's more complicated than that". :-)
Lataxe
My God...
5002 words. Well said!
Well, I always preferred a wordy meaningful discourse to the brevity of a meaningless tweet-style. Those tweets are so .... ambiguous, eh? :-)
But since you are obviously very interested in the realities of woodworking safety gubbins, I can offer you a Very Long Discourse Indeed on the matter, inclusive of 73 references to various studies, polemics, essays and other illuminating material to be found here and there.
Of course, you then won't have any time to do woodworking.
Perhaps you'll be satisfied with this nice wee summary instead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
Lataxe, very wary of underthinking (aka remaining ignorant).
Well, after 30 years as a toolmaker in an industrial setting and a woodworker in my shop I currently have all 10 digits.
I did recently however end up with a 4x6 bruise on my chest from a saw kickback on a 5' long piece of rock maple.
Lucky it wasn't 10" higher in reality else I'd prolly be dead.
Generally table saws don't scare me... 12" jointers, hovever definitely get my attention!
I use push sticks and am very very aware of the relationship between my fingers and the sharp shit. Paying special attention to the angle of rotation and the physics of the setup.
Several people in this thread have said that the SawStop vs. others is a religious debate. I beg to differ. I've used table saws for 20+ years and thankfully still have all 10 fingers due to focus and probably some luck that when my attention wandered I didn't have an accident. However I'm aware that accidents do happen and when I was contemplating recently which saw to buy I chose safety over cost or other considerations. That's my choice. It's not religious.
Same here. Pragmatism, peace of mind, and lifetime insurance. Not religion.
I agree (it's not religion, it's choice). It reminds me a little of when Apples first came out (widespread) in 1990s. There was an aura of cult/religion around its adherents too.
When I'm not in the shop, I'm playing guitar. So when I was shopping for a tablesaw, a Sawstop was the only way to go and well worth the expense (to me...YMMV). Though I have always tried to keep to a careful and attentive routine in the shop, I have had several injuries, all minor, thankfully. Every one happened when my concentration lapsed for a moment. I'm comforted by the extra layer of safety provided by the SS, even if I never trigger its protection.
Well, id be interested in seeing some statistics...
And one has to be concerned about how they are presented...
Lets say for instance that a given action X reduces deaths caused by Y 20%.
Sounds impressive doesn't it? Until you realize that the incidence of death due to Y is 5 in 10,000. So, if X costs $10M annually, is the cost to society worth it?
What are you talking about? This isn't an issue about "cost to society." And I don't care if the incidence is 5 in 10,000, or what.
Table saw accidents and amputations happen. And they aren't particularly rare. Period.
Sawstop is the only one with technology that can stop that. Period.
It cost me about 1,000 bucks to make sure I don't lose a finger or two.
It really is a no brainer. There is no philosophical argument to be made. It's really just financial. You can afford it or not. I was upgrading my saw, and had the dough. To not do it to make some larger statement would have been akin, literally, to cutting off my nose to spite my face.
They are a bit less common than most people think, though you are right that they do occur and the money is worth it.
Have a look at the post I just wrote in the main thread - it is fair to say that 250 amputations per year is 250 too many, and 80% of those would be prevented by a sawstop, but for the budget-conscious woodworker, a non-sawstop saw is not a foolish purchase either.
Felder also have an equivalent technology now.
Here's a statistic: about 4,000 fingers are amputated on table saws each year in the United States. I have no idea of the percentage of table saw users who lose a finger, their experience, or which non-SS saws they use. Here's an important statistic: none of the lost fingers were amputated on a SawStop saw.
I got interested in this stat and went digging.
It turns out this is not true at all. There are about 250 TS related amputations in the USA annually, based on some decent research.
250 too many of course, but way less than 4000.
The only reference I could find to 4000 was in a media piece extolling the virtues of sawstop technology.
You make a good point, and this is a reasonable question to ask.
I have been doing quite a lot of work on this matter and have discovered that at a rough estimate, if every Table Saw in the USA were to be a Sawstop, you would probably prevent about 200-240 amputations of digits per year. About 10-50 would still occur as the mechanisms of injury leading to amputation are not always contact with the blade. The large range is due to a smallish sample size (I analysed one year of OSHA reports)
You ask about cost. It is difficult to estimate the cost of amputation. Most patients I know who have amputations don't have substantial loss of earnings or enjoyment of life, though the injuries are significant. The cost of a death can be estimated by working out how much more you pay people in dangerous jobs then averaging this per death - it's about 10 million US per death. I know of know way to measure finger-loss costs in this way.
In New Zealand you would get assessed as a 22% impairment for loss of a thumb. This would give you a NZD 10680 payment plus NZD 29.82 per week 'independence allowance'
If we use a loose 5.5 million woodworkers in the USA (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242463-Yet-more-evidence-of-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-woodworking-hobby/page4) then 237 table saw amputations per year equates to 4.3 events per 100,000 woodworkers per year. This is BELOW the risk level considered generally 'acceptable' at 1:10000, the approximate risk of death on the road each year.
So, your answer is about 1 in 20,000 per year, if you are a woodworker.
Hoover, if you wanted to see statistics you would have found them by now...clearly you have web access. Anything served to you here is just another opinion. In a setting like this, numbers are like prisoners, tortured long enough, they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear.
My point is... if you want to hang your hat on a SawStop, that is fine but realize that it is just like religion. Based upon faith not facts.
I challenge anyone to provide relevant stats that show that on a per hours of use that the SS system provides anything more than a minimal decrease in table saw injuries.
If not, then fine but don't claim something that you cannot back up with facts.
Remember folks once thought the earth was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe but once real facts came about well... But of course some folks like Nicolaus Copernicus were put to death for their belief in the facts.
I'm not trying to be divisive, just challenging folks to back up their claims with numbers. It is to important in these times not to.
For instance, one article by the Woodworkers Guild of America quotes 40K annual TS injuries. Another claims at woodworkingplansnow.com claims 67K. NEIS claims 29K. http://www.statista.com shows 30-36K depending upon the year. Sawstop claims 65K. So if you look at the difference between the number SS uses (and woodworkingplansnow) I cant find this in any research.
Also, the NEIS claims were for all powered saws, not just tablesaws: https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/pdfs/blk_pdf_powersaw.pdf. Granted this is a fairly old study but the numbers seem to have held steady over the last 20 years according to other studies.
One study puts power nailers or nail guns at 37K ER visits per year and Table Saws at 29K.
So, what do YOU believe?
)
Just preposterous. The information you cited is completely irrelevant to sawstop's safety features and the facts of that feature.
What do I believe? I believe you are a ridiculous troll.
Sorry you believe I am a troll.
I stand corrected on Copernicus.
I still stand by me desire for statistics specific to table saw injuries.
As you can see, reliable data is scant.
As user-7580233 has stated:
"The information you cited is completely irrelevant to sawstop's safety features and the facts of that feature."
My position is that those advocating SS as the bees-kneees really need to provide statistics to support their position.
It is not my responsibility to prove a negative rather I am simply asking for those claiming the benefits of a SS to support their argument is authoritative information . so lets start with a really simple one... lets start with the claim here:
"In the United States alone, over 65,000 people are victims of table saw accidents each year."
From whence does this data come? There are no footnotes that come with the marketing claims. I cannot reconcile this number (or even close to it) based upon any reliable statistics I can find.
Inquiring minds want to know...
What is perhaps most telling of all that you have written...is the "fact" that Nicholas Copernicus died of natural causes at the age 70...
User, not Nicholas Copernicus, he said Nicolaus Copernicus, who owned a deli in Warsaw 80 years ago.
Hey, making up "facts" is fun. Try it!
I thought it might be interesting to have a look at finger amputations in the USA, just for fun. Better than watching the Crown again with the boss, anyway...
I looked into amputations of digits as minor injuries are not a big issue. They seldom cause more than minor inconvenience for a fairly short period of time.
Good statistics are hard to come by, but the article referenced includes a good estimate of 23,300 finger amputations occur in the USA per year. (period of 20 years from 1997 to 2016)
Of these a great many are due to doors (children especially) and medical amputations for non-trauma reasons (over 65s)
In the study period, there were a total of 14,094 power saw related amputations, or about 705 per year (a few less than the 4000 Sawstop advertising claims)
Of these power saw injuries, it is not possible to identify table saws specifically, but OSHA provide industrial injury reports, which are probably representative enough, though will tend to include fewer chainsaw injuries than are seen in the population at large. This means that the risk of TS injury is probably overestimated in my research. I have not allowed for this as I have no scientific basis on which to scale the injury, and as this is a safety question, it is better to err on the side of caution.
I looked at the last 400 amputations and partial amputations recorded by OSHA, which represents just over a full year of USA accidents. Of these, 6 were planers and jointers, and 35 were power saw injuries, 13 of which were table saw, 7 band saw, 5 chop saw, 2 RAS, 2 circular saw and 4 other or unknown.
Scaling 750 by 13/35 suggests about 262 annual table saw amputations in the USA, of which about 249 would be in home workshops. It is highly probable that almost all worksite amputations were reported.
Of the industrial amputations by table saw, 2 would not have been prevented by a Sawstop - the amputation was caused after the saw shut down or by direct trauma from a kickback.
5 of the amputations were 'no fixing stupid' injuries - trying to retrieve jammed wood without turning off the saw or incorrect use of the tool
3 were caused by kickback or work-grab dragging hands into the blade.
The remainder were caused by fingers being in line with the blade whilst cutting work, usually sheet material.
This shows:
1. That the risk of injury from a table saw is grossly overstated;
2. Using the tool correctly reduces risk by 30%
3. Sawstop would prevent 80% of amputations caused by table saws.
The fact of the matter is that there is no real commonality in the reports. There is no clear pattern to the injuries, save that it's a really bad idea to try to un-jam a rotating saw blade and you need to keep your hands out of the line of cut at all times.
Additional calculation, assuming approximately 5.5 million woodworkers in the USA suggests that the risk of a table saw amputation injury is about 1:10,000- 1:20,000 per year (1:10,000 assumes only half of people identifying as woodworkers use a table-saw, thus doubling the risk for those who do) this is about the same risk that driving or being driven presents of causing death in a year. In 40 years of woodworking, that shrinks to about 1:250 to 1:500 lifetime risk of losing a digit to a table saw.
I have to say, having done this research, I feel a lot better about not having bought a Sawstop (though my slider is a very safe saw to use).
It's not a no-brainer (a phrase I despise) and you are not a fool for buying something not equipped with the brake. However, if you do have the resources then it is always better to have more safety than less.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589514118300379
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.search?sic=&sicgroup=&naics=&acc_description=&acc_abstract=&acc_keyword=%22Amputation%22&inspnr=&fatal=&officetype=&office=&startmonth=&startday=&startyear=&endmonth=&endday=&endyear=&keyword_list=on&p_start=360&p_finish=380&p_sort=&p_desc=DESC&p_direction=Next&p_show=20
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242463-Yet-more-evidence-of-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-woodworking-hobby/page4
Rob,
You seem to be talking about finger amputations. But there are many TS (and other power tool) injuries that don't result in amputations although they do result in other significant trauma. Some of these would be obviated by the sawstop technology. Some (such as those caused by kickback) wouldn't ... that needs a proper riving knife and fence design etc..
In the USA, there's an added part required in the cost/benefit analysis when deciding whether or not to buy a sawstop: the medical costs. If I badly cut my finger in the UK, the NHS will repair it for the cost of my paying so much tax all these years. In the USA even that relatively small degree of treatment might cost you (personally) thousands of dollars.
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If there was a decent sawstop sliding carriage TS available in the UK for a price that I could afford, I'd probably buy one. (The Festool is not the kind of TS I want). The TS I have now is very safe because of it's many guards, hold-downs, riving knife and so forth; and I use it very carefully. But just one mistake and there could be weeks of, or even a permanent, disability - not ultra-serious, perhaps, but a very annoying inconvenience for the rest of my life.
And as we get older, such mistakes become a little more likely. Our bits degrade, including the control-organ in our heads.
Sawstop seems to prevent a significant number of traumas in addition to amputations. Some users will perhaps make more mistakes when using such a saw because they think the sawstop will save them from all and any "accident". But even if they become blase enough to shove their finger into the blade, the amount of harm will reduce from "trauma + outsize medical bill" to "affordable replacement of blade and brake".
Lataxe
Thanks for the breakdown. But I think with the numbers you posted, the choice is still a no brainer. Lat Axe points out, in part, why.
I've been paying a fortune in car insurance for the 44 years I've been driving. I've never filed a claim or gotten a nickel back. Never needed to use it. But if I didn't have it, I could potentially lose everything I own.
I pay almost as much in health insurance premiums every month as I do forward insurance in a year. I haven't used it at all in over 5 years, and not a lot before that. But even with those expensive premiums, so much is still not covered. If I lopped off a finger on my table saw, it should surprise no one that I could end up losing my house -- and that's with insurance.
The "premium" it cost me for a Sawstop over, say a new Powermatic is equivalent to a little more than 5 or six weeks of health insurance, or a year's auto insurance. But the Sawstop premium is a once in a lifetime payment -- really cheap.
For me, it all adds up to be the very definition of a no-brainer.
Thanks for the work, and rational analysis. As one can readily discern just in this thread, faulty analysis, misunderstood and/or misrepresented statistics, and more—including of course opinions presented as justification via argument from (claimed) authority—are very common issues in matters such as these.
One can always quibble a bit over numbers, assumptions, and so forth, but it appears you’ve done a better-than-decent job of looking at real statistics in a rational way. Again, thanks.
PS: I come from a biomedical research background, and have significant experience in occupational health settings as well, so I perhaps more fully appreciate your efforts than one might otherwise expect.
Thanks so much to Rob and John_C2 for your analysis and thoughts: I bought my Sawstop PCS a couple of months ago and am in no way less cautious when using it vs. my previous TS. Like insurance I hope I'll never trigger the SS's protection. But if I do I'll be glad I had it.
Emma_Gray, buy an extra cartridge to keep in a drawer, if you trigger the saw you're out of business without it. Sawstop has an R&D program where they send you a replacement cartridge if you return the spent cartridge so they can download the data. You just have to fill out some forms and you'll never need to buy another.
I triggered mine once because I did not lock down my rip fence well enough. I was back at work in about 15 minutes...and 5 of those were to change my pants!
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