I need to replace my delta old contractors style table saw (donated to my sons school) and would appreciate comments or thoughst about possible alternatives giving consideration to the foolowing issues
1. My old delta generated a ton of dust. I tried after market bag type dust bags but to no real effect. The blade really did a good job of getting the dust airborn Does anyone know of a contractor saw out there fitted witha dust collection port to which I could hook up a (mobile) dust collector?
2. My space is very limited (basement shop) so whatever I buy needs to be medium sized.
3. Weight is also a factor as my shop is in the basement and access is either through the house or an exterior bulkhead. Either way, hauling anything down the stairs weighing over a couple hundred pounds is probably a little risky. For this reason I’ve tended to eliminate my original (preferred) choice of one of the newer type “hybrid” 10″ cabinet saws.
I do not use a table saw extensively but really miss it when the need arises. Any suggestions of brands and/or styles that might solve or mitigate some of the above would be really appreciated.
Many thanks
Keith
Replies
Kemakeda,
I'm too far away from buying a table saw. I have the Dewalt hybred.
But I also have a basement shop. About 1/2 a level down.
I built a ramp with 2 X 4's and slid the box down the ramp to get it in through the bulkhead.
Worked like a charm.
ASK
Many thanks for taking the time to offer very helpful suggestions. It is very much appreocated.
I love my General international contractors, they also make a "hybrid" which looks very nice and has better dust control. For the casual user I'd look at it.
MIKE
Many thanks Mike, I'll be sure to include the General in my short list.
Keith
Many hybrids don't weigh significantly more than a contractor saw, yet they take up less space, so I wouldn't rule one out if you're considering anything like a full size 300# contractor saw. The 500+ # cabinet saws are alot heavier. You can move a saw without the wings and fence attached fairly easily, and in some cases they can be moved without the top and motor.
The new Jet 708100 hybrid weighs ~ 250# and goes on sale in the $400-$500 frequently. The Grizzly G0478, GI, and Delta hybrids weigh in the 300# range.
I've move my big saw three times. Take the wings off, the top off, and motor off. When you get it where you want it, its a good time to tune it up anyway.
Knotscott,
Many thanks. I have the Grissly you mentioned in my sights and will check out the others mentioned.
keith
Keith, I recently bought the General International hybrid, the 50-220 with the Canadian-made fence (T-28, as I recall), and I love it.
I work between the oil tank and the furnace in my basement in a tiny space, and with the saw on a mobile base I have no trouble working with it and around it. It is wired for 110V and can later be rewired for 220, the motor is tucked out of the way inside the cabinet, and dust collection is very good with only my shop vac attached to the dust port in the cabinet.
Like you I was concerned about getting the saw from the store to my workshop, but I got it into my Subaru Outback wagon and down the outside stairs into my basement bulkhead with a lot less trouble than I expected. The Woodcraft salesman and I took the motor/cabinet unit out of the crate and laid it on its side to get it into the Subaru, and on the way home I rented a refrigerator dolly at Home Depot for 12 bucks and tied it to the roof rack. Once I was home, my wife helped me tip the saw from the car onto the dolly, and I strapped it up and eased it down the stairs with no problem.
The saw and base were pretty easy to assemble and align as well.
Norman
Norman,
Many thanks. Two recommendations now for the General and there's a Woodcraft store not that far from where I live! I'll definately be taking a much closer look.
Thanks again
keith
I have my eye on the hybrid saw by Steel City Toolworks.
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35670
This is essentially the same saw that craftsman sells as their top of the line hybrid, but with a better warranty.
At 350 lbs, it's on the heavy side, but if you can get it in place I think you would be happy with the performance. It's closer to a true cabinet saw in design than some of the other hybrids.
I haven't heard much about the General saw that seems to be getting talked about here... but the craftsman/ steel city saw is getting VERY glowing reviews (editors choice by FWW) in the hybrid market.
take a look.
Many thanks for pointing out these other alternatives - I'll be sure to take a look
keith
kemakeda,
Tablesaws that aren't on wheels are insane as far as I'm concerned.. rollthem out when needed and toll them back in when finished.. heck all shop tools should be moble if space is important.
I agree, unless space is of no concern. Even though 99% of the time nothing moves in my shop, when you need to move something it's nice.
From a price and availability standpoint, you might also want to look at the Ridgid contractors saw - the TS3650. It only weighs 287 pounds, but it also comes in a box in pieces, so that you can get it into your basement a piece at a time.
If you go look at it, you will see that it is a nice woodworkers saw in that it has a fairly large table, especially 'in front of the blade'. This doesn't sound like a big deal until you are trying to balance a cross-cut sled on 6 inches of table top in front of the blade to start a precision cut. Then it's a big deal.
The top is cast iron (nice when you want to use super magnets to manage feather boards, jigs, etc), as are the extension wings, and the saw has a 36 inch cut capacity on the right of the blade, which you will really want the first time you want to finish cut a panel for a cabinet side or back, on your table saw (or buy a Festool and it's guide).
Before I knew what I wanted, and why I wanted it, I bought the TS2400 table saw based on it's great reviews, it's smaller size for my basement (24 inches cut capacity on the right side of the blade, 122 lb weight, etc), and it's reasonable price.
While it is a very nice saw, it's just a little too small, and I regret that I didn't spend $75 more for the larger one. Since either is on wheels, either would fit nicely in my small basement shop. Since purchasing it, I have put a lot of effort into making it 'bigger' via off-cut table, right-side table top extension-extension, etc, etc.
For dust collection, I use a portable Delta bag dust collector. You will find that even with the bottom of the saw tricked out to catch all the dust that comes that way, the blade still throws a lot of dust straight up into the air. I don't know percentages, but I found myself standing in a small pile of dust at the end of any cutting session, even though my DCS was running full blast not 4 feet away with a 4 inch hose sucking dust for all it is worth. I finally fixed that by installing an Excalibur brand over-the-saw blade guard and dust collector. Now I get "most" of the dust the saw generates.
Mike D
Mike,
Many thanks for your detailed resposne and suggestions. Coincidentally, I did look at this very saw the other day when in Home Depot and it struck me as being a very viable contender.
Your thoughtful accounts of experiences with the small model lend a lot of credence to the larger model.
Many thanks again
Keith
ive had a ridgid 3650 for over a year now, a great saw for the money i thought
added a router table to the right side between the rails
fence goes to the left of the blade no prob, blade is shrouded for DC
and the stand with lift system is perfect for a small shop
watch the price carefully, here in canada its reg 899, sometimes on for 599, then two weeks ago 479 for a weekend
Would you mind posting a pic of your router table addition?
its pretty simple really, but i use ita lot, from edge treatments, pattern routing and joinery
the surface is a sheet of ply, reinforced under neath with scraps of maple and fastened to the front fence rail with machine screws into drilled and tapped holes, the back just rests on the rear rail
the switched outlet is for the router
Steve, thanks for the pics. I have been considering different ways to do that, all too complicated. I like that fence.
i have a couple of fence systems
first is the ridgid fence that came with the table saw, with a couple of sacrificial scraps added, then the plywood one that i built up, its fastened to the table with a couple of countertop draw bolts in slots and homemade hand screws for easy adjustments
fancy router tables and elaborate router tables are well and good, but most of us dont have the space or money to spend on them
mine was zero cost although i did get the leevalley bases for each of my routers and space? well zero i guess
my last big project, a bunch of leevalley adirondack chairs, was all table saw to the bandsaw to the routertable over and over again
actually one of the chairs is visible in one of the pics,only 6 more to go!!
Good luck with the chairs. I plan to copy your router setup when I get the chance. I'm thinking about the fence too, since it is a bit different than others I have see. I guess the only other thing I am wondering is why you can't just use some kind of router fence which is attached to the Ridgid fence. That would seem to allow you to make micro-adjustments easily; and I find the Ridgid fence to be fairly strong. Maybe it would slip under constant use. I guess you would need to leave the spacer rod on underneath the router table to prevent the front and rear tracks of the fence from pulling together.
the router fence was my own design based loosely on many designs published over the years
i dont use the ridgid fence simply as a matter of convenience, cutting multiple parts, its a matter of tablesaw, bandsaw then routertable over and over again
so ridgid fence for ripping, bandsaw for rough shaping then router table for pattern routing
i have never used the spacer bar, its sitting on the windowsill above my jointer!!
if you'd like detailed photos of the fence, let me know, and i'll post them, its pretty simple really but works great
Please show a few pics. There are so many designs out there that it is hard to distinguish advantages from disadvantages.
I made my crosscut sled to some arbitrary dimensions. I could not find much advice concerning the best recommended size. It is heavy, but quite effective. I will probably build a smaller version for everyday use and save the big one for jobs that require a large capacity.
I have had the 3650 for a couple of months now and am still completely satisfied with it. I basically gave it its own circuit breaker because it does tend to dim the lights when ripping.
The saw can be tuned to perfection quite easily. I took my time making a highly accurate and strong crosscut sled. This works beyond my expectations. I really enjoy being able to make very safe cuts easily.
The mobility of the lift on that saw is awesome. I have a fairly good floor, so I move it around with hardly a thought. I wish I had bought it years ago.
By all means get a hybrid.
I had similar concerns to yours when I was saw shopping, and ultimately bought a Delta 36-715 hybrid for two main reasons: with its T-2 30" fence it is less than 60" wide, so it fits in a limited space in my shop, and it ranked at the top for dust control in a "Tools of the Trade" review of ten hybrids.
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/articles/showarticle.asp?articleID=2443&position=1&type=article&partID=1
The Delta 36-717 tested in the article is the same machine with a 30" Biesemeyer fence whose front rail is 4" wider than the T2.
General International ranked fairly low in that review for dust control, but the manufacturer says they have added a blade shroud with its own 2" dust control hose since the review was done, so it should perform better now.
The Delta saw (36-714 without fence)is shipped in a plywood crate about 2'x 3'x 3'6" high IIRC, and the fence comes in its own packaging. A friend and I slid that crate out of my truck on a skid made of a pair of 2x6's, cross-tied underneath with couple of 1x4's. Once unpacked, the saw is only 20" wide and, before the cast iron wings and fence are installed, probably weighs about 220lb.
Cut a piece of plywood to size, install a cleat on the front end and bore a hole at the back end for a restraining rope, screw 1x4 runners to the bottom and bevel the leading edges, and two guys could easily slide a hybrid down your basement stairs. A tie-down at the back might be a nice safety touch.
Go for it and enjoy!
Bruce,
Many thanks indeed for your detailed recommendation and suggestions - all extremely helpful and very much appreicated.
keith
My shop is in my basement with access through the kitchen to an interior stairwell. I'm 60+ and my son and I have moved all of my equiptment down the stairs with just a furniture dolly. If you don't have one they can be rented. I have a Delta Unisaw with long table, 15" York Planer, Performax 22-44 drum sander, 6" jointer, Jet Spindle sander, Grizzly 14" Bandsaw and an Powermatic 3420B lathe, probably 800 pounds assembled, and more. All of these tools were unpacked on the exterior patio and taken down the stairs as each piece came out of the box. The York Planer was probably the heaviest one piece but two people can move it down the stairs with caution.
So, the point is, buy what you want and will fit in your space and the weight can be handled with a little help and thought. I don't plan to move my stuff out of the basement anytime soon so no problem.
I would like to have a 12" jointer someday, now that would be tough!!
Have fun, be a real cut-up.
Wingdoctor,
Thanks for the words of encouragement - just what the doctor ordered!
keith
I would certainly agree. I am 60+ as well, with similar experience with my basement shop.The only caution that I would offer is that if it is possible for you to test the piece of equipment before putting it in your basement, that could be worth the effort.The reason that I mention this is that I have a new-ish sears craftsman 14" floor-mount drill press sitting in the corner of my basement shop, that is for all practical purposes, junk. It's truly "no Scottish".
However, the thought of taking the darn thing back apart and schlepping the little dear back up the stairs to take back to Sears keeps moving it back to the back of my priorities. Mike D
If I had the power outlets available for the 220 needed it might be worth the trouble. I know that it took all strength my son and I could muster to set the head of my floor model Ridgid drill press on top of the column.
I used to have a high opinion of Craftsman tools but in recent years that high opinion has moved far south. I still have a bunch of Craftsman Mechanic tools in my roll-a-round but I will not buy a new wrench or socket from them, just use the guarantee when I break one. Since K-Mart merged with Sears in 2004 even the replacement policy seems to have changed. They have started, in Columbus, Ohio, where I live, to write down on a list your name if you bring back a tool for replacement without a receipt. They said they wanted to keep track of people who abused the return policy. I thought lifetime warranty meant just that. if I break it, they replace it.
Who keeps a receipt for a socket or wrench type tool for years? I worked for K-Mart in a supervisory position from 1977-1984 and know first hand about that organization, and... well I know too much.
With my current opinion of Craftsman I sure would find a way to take the drill press apart and get it back for a refund or replacement.
Enough of my ranting. Have fun with your skills and take pride in what you create.
I have no shop, just a shed, so I have to take my Bosch 4000-09 outside to work. I got the saw used and, so far, it's just what I've needed for remodeling and small woodworking. With it's gravity-rise stand, I can roll it to the job site or load it into my car. When it comes time to build a shop, I'll be ready.
I'm eager to try finger joints and tenons and dadoes, sometime soon.
Norm
he Riid3650 is consistently rated at the top of its price range, and as someone else mentioned, the Herculift set-up allows it to be easily rolled around. I've had one for 3 years or so and it's been great. I don't have huge shop either so that's why I got it. I do have a large worktable (4' x 8') which I built to 1/16th" below the height of the saw table. When needed I can roll the saw up to the work table and use it as a run-out surface. I also got the Rigid planer and built up a base so it's at the work table height too. In small workshops portability is essential.
Hi Boardman,
Many thanks indeed - have you done anything to mitigate dust? How is the saw overall in this regard ?
Best
keith
Actually, I have a free standing shop and I don't do finishing here - plus I believe sawdust is part of the ambiance of woodworking, so I don't have it hooked up to a dust collection rig. I've got 2 double doors and 6 - 3' x 3' windows so I just sweep up at the end of the day, then turn on the leaf blower and blast what's left out.
But as far as saw performance I've had zero problems. The only gripe I have is that there were a couple parts of the assembly instructions that didn't make sense, but figuring out the right way was no problem. I just bought a Rigid 50 tooth blade and it cuts smooth as a baby's bottom.
I am all in on the Ridged 3650--I have had it for about a month and could not be happier. The mobile base is great and I have nothing but praise for this saw--here they are 500 dollars every day. Do not take the display--I could see where someone who did not care to do a good job would leave something not done right and this thing will bring so much joy to you, it is best to assemble it fresh from the very heavy box.
Hi I just bought a bosch gts 10 and am pleased by the saw so far.
I did find a little slop in the miter gauge and the fence did not line up 100 % parralel with the blade but for the most part it was pretty much set up right out of the box. And although I would'nt call it cheap it takes up little room is light and acurate after a little fusing (but lets br honest is there a woodworker out there who is'nt fussy about his/her tools) the saw comes with dust extraction via a hose adaptor for your shop vac but you need to first close off most of the vents and openings in order for this to be effective and you also need a shop vac with juice so consider these things as well! good luck, Chaim
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