Replies

1. 
   Pondfish | Dec 16, 2006 05:08pm | #1

   The real advantage of a thin kerf blade is that the power of the saw is put behind a smaller cutting profile, equating to more powerful cutting.  That is to say, the saw needs less force to push a smaller cutting face through the wood than it needs for a larger cutting face.

   There is some advantage in not losing as much stock when you cut, but this is rarely a true economic concern.

   The downside of a thinner blade on a chopsaw is wobble and deflection.  If I am trying to slice of a half of a teeny from a miter cut, I notice on thinner blades that they have a tendency to follow the previous edge, instead of cutting a new edge.

   Blades with high tooth counts can be used for ripping and crosscutting, but I find that the ripping is slower and throws a lot of dust up (since more teeth equates with less gullet for the sawdust to go into).  Blades like the WWII do a good job on both cuts, even for plywod, but not as good as dedicated rip blades and crosscut blades.  But then, I don't have the time to constantly switch blades, so I use a combi blade.  It leaves very good cut edges without the trouble of changing blades.

    

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
1. 
   Lataxe | Dec 16, 2006 06:45pm | #2

   Wal,

   Ditto Pondfish but in addition:

   Some woods (eg cherry,maple, white oak) can burn more easily if you rip with a blade having more teeth. If you can't keep the feed speed up because the teeth won't let you, burning is a risk.  It helps if you ensure the blade is clear of all resin or other gunk before you start.  And sharp.

   Cutting veneer or other faced boards is best done with one of those blades having lots of very sharp alternate bevel teeth (their point are at about 45 degrees).  These do make a much cleaner cut through the veneer than any standard-tooth blade - no spelching at all with mine. 

   Thin kerf blades have most risk of flexing the bigger they are.  Most manufacturer's seem to limit the "thinning" in 12 inch or larger blades. 

   However, I once had a small saw (6.5 inch diameter blades) that took a blade with a 1.6mm kerf (as well as the normal ones).  This blade only liked well-behaved stuff, really.  In tough stuff, it would sometimes try to go off track, despite the riving knife and fence keeping the workpiece straight.  On the other hand, a 2.2mm kerfed blade would cut anything.  The morale is probably; don't get the thinnest blade you can, if you do get a thin kerf blade.  Eg 2.4mm rather 2.0mm for a 10 inch saw.

   If you have a saw with a riving knife (not much chance in the USA, I know) make sure the knife width is no thicker than the blade kerf; and that it is not less than 0.2mm thinner than the blade kerf.  In practice, this means, a riving knife dedicated to blades of a given kerf.

   Lataxe

2. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Dec 16, 2006 06:47pm | #3

   Have to agree with Pondfish, Waljay. I rip exclusively on my TS with a 24 T rip blade. I cross-cut extensively with a SCMS with extensions that allow around 14' stock safely with a 60 T cross-cut blade. The rip blade is much faster for that purpose and the cross-cut leaves a smoother surface. I can cut maximum of around 13" W. It's a slower cut (more teeth in stock with less gullet to carry away waste) but with that width minimum time is loss.

   I run a regular kerf 60 T on the SCMS as not as much power is required on the short cuts you make. The regular kerf won't flex as badly. The 12" saw you referred to will flex more than my 10" with a Thin Kerf as you have more diameter.

   I do run a Thin Kerf 24 T rip as my saw is around 2 HP and the thinner blade decreases resistance which relates to power gained (or technically less power needed). To keep flex to a minimum on the Thin Kerf I run a CMT stiffener. The draw-back to that is it reduces the height I can cut from 3 5/8" on my saw to around 2 5/8". That's OK as I can still hum through 8/4 oak.. cherry.. pecan.. walnut.. as I use most. Anything thicker than 8/4 used to go up the street to a friend that has a PM 66 5 HP. Now I just rip it on my SC 18" Band-saw.

   If you  put a TK on your 12" to save stock and decrease dust, you should use a stiffener, IMO. But the drawback to that is it will decrease your depth of cut by at least an inch or more and that doesn't make sense IMO given your scenario. It makes more sense to just run the regular kerf as you have plenty of power on that 12". What you would gain by using it is negated and strongly over-powered in what you lose by doing so!

   Regards...

   SARGE.. jt

3. 
   USANigel | Dec 16, 2006 11:23pm | #4

   To get a true idea of the different cutting methods with rip and cross cut blades take a look at the old hand saws. A rip blade "planes" its way through the wood. A cross cut saw has sharp points to the teeth to cut the fibers of wood like tiny knifes. Take a look at the "saw dust" from both to see the different effects of the cut.

   When you rip with a crosscut blade the gullets between the teeth fill up and the blade starts to burn and resist cutting.

   Ripping blade when used to cross cut tries to "rip" its way through and could leave a uneven finish.

   general purpose blades are in between.

1. 
   marking | Dec 17, 2006 12:01am | #5

   I thought I remembered reading somewhere that forrest used a propriatary method for sharpening and an unorthodox settup (tooth angle, shear angle etc) which all add up to a well above average "combo" blade.
   Someday I'll work my way up to owning one, but for now my Ridgid 50T combo works quite well.

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 12, 2007 05:35pm | #12

   "propriatary method for sharpening and an unorthodox settup "  Sounds like marketing to me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   marking | Mar 16, 2007 04:01am | #21

   you could certainly be right about the marketing thang, I just seem to remember seeing that phrase. You know how memory can be.
   PEACE.

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 16, 2007 05:59pm | #22

   "You know how memory can be."  Their marketing department is counting on it.  Tooooo funny!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 12, 2007 09:07pm | #13

   There is nothing propriatary about Forrest Blades or their sharpening. Forrest uses a minimal side clearence on their grind which creates heat and polishes or burnishes the side of the saw kerf. This burnishing gives the appearence of a smoother cut. However, the heating also makes the blade more likely to burn high sugar woods like maple and cherry when ripping stock thicker than 1".IMO, the best all round blade from Forrest is their 30 tooth blade. It crosscuts as well as their 40 tooth but will rip wood up to 1 1/2" thick with minimal or no burning.Freuds new 40 tooth Fusion blade also is a minimal clearence side cut HiATB tooth. This blade also gives superior cuts.For ripping I still prefer either the Freud 30 tooth Glue Line rip or the Freud 24 tooth rip blade. Any good rip blade should give "glue line" joints. All the shops I know go directly from the saw to glue up without jointing.Howie.........

   Edited 3/13/2007 12:58 pm ET by HowardAcheson

1. 
   user-67934 | Mar 13, 2007 12:38am | #14

   So I've gathered that the WW2 is a good all-around blade.  Thick or thin kerf????  I'm considering getting one, but not sure which thickness.  I'm getting ready to start a cabinet project of hickory with plywod innards.  Many thanks.

   Tony

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Mar 13, 2007 01:43pm | #15

   I use a WWII on my TS and like it. I have a contractor's saw which has less power than a cabinet saw generally does, so I use the thin kerf. Some use stabilizers with these -- I don't find it necessary. A thick kerf blade will resist bending and heat warping better, but I haven't really had any problems with either. If you use a thin kerf, you need to listen to your saw and not force things. A board with wild grain can distort the blade away from the fence if you try to force a cut.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

2. 
   Knotscott | Mar 13, 2007 02:10pm | #16

   The WWII is a good all around blade.  Forrest will recommend the TK for a saw less than 3hp, and I agree.  You'll get less bogging, and should have no deflection issues with a blade of this caliber.  I don't find a difference with stabilizers either. 

   If you're running a big cabinet saw, get the full kerf.

    

3. 
   BruceS | Mar 13, 2007 03:33pm | #17

   Generally when it come to FLESH,  a finer blade will make a cleaner cut and heal much quicker.  The healing process slows down greatly as you approach the coarse rip blades and God forbid you tangle with a DADO ;-)Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

4. 
   Dave45 | Mar 13, 2007 05:12pm | #18

   A few weeks ago, I needed a thin-kerf blade for a "one-off" job and bought a ####, 8.25", 40 tooth, combination blade.   I gotta say that I am impressed!!  It gives me very smooth cuts in 6/4 poplar with virtually no blade "swirls" on my rips.

   The guy at the tool store told me that he had gotten very positive feedback about #### blades from other customers, and I'm thinking of getting a 10" blade as well. 

   Has anyone else tried these blades?

   Edited to add....

   The brand name of the blade is Matsush(eye)ta.  Either the profanity detector is operating, or the translator decided to use ####.

   Edited 3/13/2007 10:19 am by Dave45

5. 
   forestgirl | Mar 14, 2007 07:19am | #20

   "Either the profanity detector is operating, or the translator decided to use ####."  That's the automatic-censor operating in the depths of the server somewhere.  I've read it will also do that if you put two "a" letters in a row.  Here, will give it a try.....  aa .....   I kicked up a fuss about "sucks" and got it off the forbidden list.  Maybe we can work on Matsush(eye)ta.  Don't know if the censor has an "allow" list, LOL.

   Hmmmm, the double-a didn't seem to cause a problem.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   Edited 3/14/2007 12:22 am by forestgirl

4. 
   Knotscott | Dec 17, 2006 12:30am | #6

   Hey waljay - Crosscutting is generally easier on the motor than ripping, so a there's not alot of benefit from using a TK on a SCMS. The deflection is more of an issue for a 12" blade than a 10" because of the span. It's also more of an issue with lesser quality blades than the top shelf variety...the alloys are pretty stiff on the highend blades.

   Most manufacturers will recommend a TK for saw motors less than 3hp. I've used both on my 1-3/4hp saw and find the better TK's have a notably faster feedrate than a comparable blade of full kerf, though it will spin a full kerf without issue....I prefer the faster feedrate of the TK. Never had a deflection issue witha top grade TK blade.

   General purpose or combination blades are a compromise by design. If all else is equal, a 40T all purpose blade won't crosscut as well as an 80T specialized crosscut blade, but it'll do several things the 80T won't do. Same's true when compared to a high quality ripping blade...the ripper will just plain be more efficient, but the cut quality will suffer compared to a good 40T blade. Blades like the 40T WWII or Ridge Carbide TS2000 will do a surprisingly good job in most cuts in most materials.... a claim you can't make with a dedicate rip or crosscut blade. For most applications, I find the cut quality from the WWII to be good enough that I rarely use my 80T crosscut blade, even in most ply or sheetgoods. For thick stock I will use a 24T ripper to spare my WWII from the bullwork and to lessen the strain on the motor, but the WWII and equivalent blades will rip pretty well to around 2" or so.

   It really all depends on whether you want the full compliment of blades, and whether or not you feel like changing out blades for different applications.

5. 
   jdto2 | Dec 19, 2006 07:26am | #7

   For many years I used separate rip and cross cut blades. 2 years ago in a moment of weakness I purchased a Forest WWII combo blade. My narrow kerf blade has not seen any use since then. Neither has the rip blade. Only use the fine tooth cross cut for plywood. I am a hobby user and also seldom cut anything thicker than 5/4 hard wood.

6. 
   PJohn | Jan 08, 2007 11:01pm | #8

   Thanks to discussion in this forum, I switched to a Tenryu Gold Medal a couple of years ago. Ever the skeptic, I engaged in technical discussion with factory rep, who finally simply told me that he'd buy the blade back if I didn't like it.

   Tenryu has reason to be confident. The thing is a marvel for both crosscut and rip, taking less power and leaving a remarkably ggod finished surface. Though I'd intended to save it for the "important" jobs, it's simply proven to be so far superior that I leave it mounted.

7. 
   Gear | Feb 03, 2007 10:29am | #9

   I use a 10 " WW2 on my table saw for all my work with hardwood. 

   I have used the blade extensively over the last year  and have been very happy  for both rip and cross cut mainly on walnut and maple.  

    The only time I change blades is to crosscut  prefinished birch plywood so I do not get tear out.

   I though it was time to sharpen but was amazed what a little blade cleaner was able to accomplish!

   Pricy but worthwhile to me!

   Gear

    

    

1. 
   jointerman | Mar 11, 2007 06:17am | #10

   I have both the Tenryu Gold Medal and the Forrest WW2. I originally had the Tenryu GM and loved it, for the glass smooth cuts using my Delta Contractors saw. But I switched to the standard kerf WW2 about a year ago because I was never able to use my my Biesemeyer snap in anti-kickback spreader. The GM has a narrower kerf than a standard kerf, but I believe that it is thicker than an American thin kerf blade. I love both blades, but the carbide tips on the WW2 are more substantial than the GM.

2. 
   user-211435 | Mar 12, 2007 06:05am | #11

   I think that you would find that all of your cuts could be improved by using a combination blade for everything but crosscuts, rather than use a WW2 for everything but plywood.

   Hal

   http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com

    

8. 
   JeffHeath | Mar 13, 2007 05:40pm | #19

   I didn't read the entire thread, so someone may have already mentioned this, but how often does someone making furniture go straight from the table saw to finishing??  Almost never.  You are still going to have to prepare the edge, whether it be with sandpaper, a scraper, or a hand plane.

   My first TS was a contractor's saw.  It lacked power, and the thin kerf actually did help in ripping thicker stock.  I had a regular 1/8" kerf blade, and could not rip 10/4 maple for a workbench I was making, and I remember it well because of all the trouble I had.  Everything was burning, and I was causing the motor to stall.  I switched to a thin kerf blade from Forrest, and was able to make the cuts.

   Once you switch to a cabinet saw with a 3 hp or 5 hp motor, kerf size is no longer an issue.  I now use a Forrest WW II regular kerf in my PM 66.  When the blade starts to burn in rip cuts, a good cleaning is usually in order.  I can usually clean the blade 4 or 5 times to improve performance before I need to send it out for sharpening.

   I would never go through the hassle of switching back and forth between rip and crosscut blades.  I switch between those cuts all day long, and would waste at least an hour a day doing all that switching.  The Forrest combo blades excell at eliminating this hassle.

   Jeff