Whats Up Knot Heads
Alright here is the problem I am having. I bought the Rigid Tablesaw on 12-01-04 the Ts3650 I have since purchasing it learned about the infamous arbor problem. The problem for anyone who hasn’t heard is this. The arbor has a defect in its machining that causes it to not be able to seat a dado blade set so that it can cut a perfect groove. Here is where the problem comes in. I have exactly 30 days to bring it back to get my money back. I could still exchange this thing and go buy a different saw perhaps the Grizzly or new Craftsman. What would you guys do? And yes I have been over to the Rigid board and there is no clear cut answer by anyone from Rigid on what they are going to do to rectify the situation. To bring this saw back is not an easy task needs to be dismantled loaded onto the truck not to mention i don’t have the box anymore! So…….
Thanks
Centaur76
Replies
I just had a look into what you are talking about. A multi-blade dado just won't work on this saw. An adjustable type might be fine, but won't leave flat bottom dado. I think you need to see any saw you want to replace the Rigid with. Just how often do you need to cut dado's?
Edited 12/26/2004 2:34 pm ET by USANigel
Take it back....big orange box should take it back, no questions asked, box or no box...this problem is not going to be resolved and you may not need a dado but from time to time, but you should be able to use it when you want!
Jimmy
"as always I wish you enough"
Centaur 76,
I'd return it for two reasons: first, I think you'd be happier with a Grizzly...everyone here that has one does. Second, the solution to your problem, when it is fixed, assuming it is fixed, may be just as much a hassel as returning it now....and you have no guarantees how long you'll need to wait before you get what you paid for...
Well I plan on cutting Dadoes with the table saw. How many I don't know? I guess it will depend on the projects I plan on conquering in the future. I'm just pretty perturbed about the whole thing. It seems the company has known about this issue for some time they could have mentioned it before I bought the damn thing. Anyway seems like I am going to return it. Ahh well looks like Ill be waiting for the grizzly.
Thanks for your 2 cents fellas. later
Centaur76
Thought you might like to know "before" you get a Griz, that there price increase is effective on 1/1/05. The Griz0444Z will go up about $70 if you wait longer than next week to order.
Hey ScottyYes I am well aware of the price increases around the first of the year. It coincides with me having to return the rigid model I have. Quite the dilema.Later
Centaur76
get a Bosch -- 499 - beatiful machine -- have to take the dust guard off to get tht dado on though
Centaur76,I don't know what the "defect" is that prevents a dado set from being "properly" used on this saw. Does the saw function correctly in every other respect? If it does, are you are satisfied with its performance and price for all operations other than using it to dado? If so, I would advise you to keep it.I am one of those workers who recommend against using a dado blade set ever, period. Never, that is. Do not do it. I would never let anyone in my shop do it, and I have taught students against the practice.Are you aware that in Europe and Australia, it is illegal for a manufacturer to equip a table saw so that it may be used with dado sets? I may be wrong, but it may actually be illegal for a private citizen to so equip a saw. That is how strongly it is felt that the use of dado sets is inherently dnagerous and that a table saw cannot be made safe for such use.Yes, yes. I know that others will jump in here and claim that they have used dados all their lives with never any danger involved. Some people rip without a riving knife and a crown guard, too. And the practice is inherently the most dangerous operation that can be performed on a table saw. Among those who use dados, there are 2 kinds of workers. Those who have been injured and those who haven't yet, but will be. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.There are other ways to achieve the same results, without the danger of using dado sets on a tablesaw. The most common is to use a router and a straight bit, either with a guide, or in a router table. There are high-precision router guides that clamp to the work and make the job very easy.I would never consider a table saw lacking because I couldn't dado with it.Rich
Gosh Rich,
Not that I use a dado all the time but you are the 1st I have ever heard of that so down on a dado set. I don't really think it's an issue of it's ok if it can't use a dado blade but if I buy anything that has said it can do a certian thing then I expect it to be able to do it. As for Europe and the Aussies they don't do alot of things we do, right or wrong. I deal with OSHA rules and regs everyday in my job and as tight as they are with the work I do for a living I would think they would already have banned dado sets in this country if they thought it was too dangerous. Anyway if he wants to do dados he should be able to. Just some thoughts
Jimmy
"as always I wish you enough"
Jimmy,The view I expressed is mild.Most equipment available in Europe, Australia and New Zealand is superior to anything sold in the US as far as operator safety and precision is concerned. Their rules agaisnt dado operations and other similar practices were not made without deliberation and the advise of decades of good prectice. To turn your point about a bit, just because one CAN do something (with "American equipment"), does not mean that one should.If you ever get to read the regulations I referred to, you will find them not restrictive or punitive, as OSHA's frequently are, but real educational guides to the proper use of equipment, written with knowledge of the equipment and craft. Their aim actually appears to be to help the worker get the job done right.As far as OSHA is concerened, their regulations are often politically motivated, pedantic and have less to do with real safety than legal liability. The fact that OSHA does not regulate the use of DADO sets on a table saw in no way indicates that such use is safe.In any case, my point was that any lack of ability to do dado operations did not need to be considered a failing, all other things being equal. I still am not clear as to why the saw can't handle dado sets. European saws can't because their arbors are deliberately short. What is the reason on the Ridgid saw? Does that also cause other problems?Rich
I'm with you, Rich. Dado sets became mostly obsolete with the advent of high-powered plunge routers.
I've got an older (made in US) TS3650. I recently had to tweak it because the POS stamped-steel motor mount bracket bent, causing the drive belt to fall off whenever I turned the saw on. Coupla washers to shim it and I'm back in bidness, and otherwise the Ridgid does what it does. Don't know about the newer ones, made overseas, can't speak to the QC, but all other things being equal, I'd keep the saw because trying to return it would give me a deep throbbing pain in the nether regions...
It's awfully easy for a private citizen to walk into Woodcraft, Rockler, or Sears and buy a dado set. Those stores are aimed primarily at home users. I'd hazard a guess that if it were illegal for us to put dado sets on our saws that Freud and others would have a rough time selling them to us legally.
No doubt that a dado stack can do more damage to a finger than a single blade and they generally considered more dangerous, but I haven't read anything as extreme as your stance of them in three years of spending too much time at the keyboard. Hope I don't jinx myself or anyone else for that matter, but with hold downs, feather boards, push sticks, and just the respect that those growling cutters command, I don't feel like a dado is posing an extreme risk that should be avoided. They're rather useful IMHO...especially when the router is setup for another task.
As I understand it from a guy in safety in the UK, the issue of a dado had more to do with the splitter than the safety, or non-safety, of the dado and dadoing. The regulations were aimed at requiring tablesaws to be equipted with a riving knife that was permanently installed and moved up and down with the raising and lowering of the blade. This means a dado blade of a diameter less than the diameter of the sawblade can not be used as the riving knife would stick up higher than the depth of the dado. To preclude altering the riving knife attachment, the length of the arbor was reduced so that anything thicker than a single blade could not be used.
From a practical point of view, the danger of a dado is that the blade location is hidden and the possibility of your finger(s) or hand being in the path of the blade is increased. At least, that is the justification.Howie.........
Howie,I believe you are right. The restrictions have to do with the fact that the saw must never be used without the riving knife and crown guard in place and functioning as intended. A special guard must be installed if dado sets are used, and this is a practical impossibility, essentially eliminating their use.In Australia and New Zealand, dados simply are not permitted in commercial shops. I don't know if that restriction is as severe in Europe, but I believe it may be.Rich
Sorry bout your saw problem. Take a look at the new Craftsman with the Bessimier (spelling ?) fence.
The decision to return or not is personal choice issue. I'd return it, and here's why. This arbor issue existed a long time ago when Emerson was making Craftsman table saws, and then the earlier Ridgids. Emerson fixed it, but somehow it's crept back into the Ridgid saws via OWT/TTI. Service centers that repair the current Ridgid models say that Ridgid has known about this issue for a long time and had no plans to fix it. Now that it's gotten wide spread attention that involves a heavyweight magazine editor (John White - FWW), Ridgid wants to address it. On the Ridgid forum they promised a post by 12/20/04 to address the problem. To date(12/26), that note hasn't been posted. They may get around to taking care of this, but there's too many other good saws in this price range to put up with nonsense. When the saw was released, there were no accessories available and poor CS reports were rampant. There were several posts about excessive motor vibration due to bent fan fins....no big deal, and not as widespread as the arbor problem. Then there was the problem with flexing legs on some units. As far as I know, this has been dealt with on subsequent machines, but at one time there were pics on the Ridgid site of another leg configuration that was going to be offered but never came to be...not sure where that left ealier owners of those machines that had the problem. There's also been several people who've experienced problems or lengthy delays with their rebate cards from the last promo. At what point to do you say enough is enough? There's plenty of good quality competition at the price point which haven't experienced the myriad of quality and service issues that this particular Ridgid model has. This doesn't make it a bad saw or mean that Ridgid won't eventually fix it. It just means there are other excellent choices that perform as well, , some of which you've mentioned, that have a better track record.
Centaur,
I don't disagree with your taking the saw back, but you were involved in this thread a couple of days ago: 20501.9
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hey BillYes true I was involved in that thread and have still not decided on what I am going to do with the saw. I do have a router and could use it for all of my dado needs. I also see that Rigid is providing me with either a new arbor or the ability to bring the saw in repaired either way for 600 bucks not sure that i want to get into the fun hobby of arbor replacing. Either way it seems like a headache maybe ill just get the replacement arbor and in the event that I need to use it Ill have it. I like the saw that is the only issue I have with it.As far as the not ever using a dado set on a table saw that is the first I have ever heard of that. Very curious point of view.later
Centaur76
"... As far as the not ever using a dado set on a table saw that is the first I have ever heard of that. ... "
I would certainly want to be able to use a dado on my tablesaw. Since yours is so new, it makes sense to return it and let the vendor take care of the problem. If you really need the saw, then work with the manufacturer to get it fixed.
Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I got that RIGID and I like it.. I also have one of them adjustable dado's. I put it on on older saw and it scared the c..p out of me.. But I'm old and want to live alittle longer.
Just a note: I had so much trouble getting that saw off of my pickup and I know i'd NEVER get it back up! SO i'm keeping mine.
"Just a note: I had so much trouble getting that saw off of my pickup and I know i'd NEVER get it back up! SO i'm keeping mine."
Hee, hee! Will, I bought mine in 2000. While I was assembling it in the open garage on a warm spring day, a candidate for the state legislature stopped by wanting a signature on his nomination papers. I agreed, provided he help me lift the saw and put it on the stand! There was no way I was going to be able to do it myself! So he helped me, I signed his paper, and gave him 10 bucks for his campaign...
Now that's getting some work out of a politician.
Way to go!Leon Jester
Ridgid contacted Fine Woodworking with this response to the problem with their table saw arbors. We will be running their response in the next issue, but I wanted to make this information available now.
"Unfortunately, some TS3650 arbor assemblies have incomplete threads which may cause problems when using a stacked dado. If a customer has such a saw, correct arbor assemblies are available from RIDGID¯ at no charge. A customer can elect to replace this assembly on his own or take it to an authorized service center for free replacement."
John White, Shop Manager, FWW Magazine
Edited 12/27/2004 11:09 am ET by JohnW
Ridgid is junk--always has been--always will be. Some people are happy with their tools--thats fine with me. People bought Yugos and were pleased with them too.I'd take this saw back in a hurry, and would never buy another Rigid again. The response from the manufacturer is typical of a "I don't give ####s h i t manufacturer" who knows that so long as it makes equipment cheaper than the rest, some idiot who doesn't care about quality will buy it. The nerve of these guys. If this occurred at Delta, there would rioting in the streets. But somehow because its Ridgid, they get a pass, because dadoing is not that important of a function. Sheeesh.Bosch, Delta, Powermatic, General are all better lines of equipment by far. I'm not wild about Jet, but even Jet is better than Rigid.As far as the Euros go and dadoing, well, thats their problem. I have used molding heads, dado blades, and jamb saws for the better part of 30 years in the trades. Never had an accident, never saw an accident, and never heard of an accident with those pieces of equipment. Never even saw an article that quoted accidents per user ratios so there could be some imperical data about it. Until I see some data on the issue, its nothing but opinion.Personally, I think the Jointer is the most dangerous tool in the shop and shudder everytime I use it. I believe the Bandsaw is the safest piece of power equipment in the shop.My two cents. Now go to the right thing. Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Don't sugar coat everything so much Boris; tell us how you really feel!!! LOL!!
I don't own any Rigid tools or even know anyone who does but would hesitate to categorize everything they make as "junk". Still I can't fathom that anyone would design a serious table saw that could not accept a stacked dado!
I agree with you about the bandsaw being the safest power tool. Statistically, I'm sure tablesaws are the worst just because so many people have them. In reality, I'm sure you're right about the jointer. I never heard of a "minor" injury with a jointer. You can cut your finger off on a TS and if you're just a bit lucky you can get it reattached. If you loose a digit to a jointer there's nothing left but a red stain!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I couldn't agree more with Mack...(thanks for saving me all that typing!)
After reading through this thread, I am at a loss to understand why you are still going through all this teeth gnashing. I say find a friend, and load the thing up for a trip back to HD.
Rich may be well intentioned in warning you off the dado blade, but dadoing is an indispensable operational capability for a table saw. And if your Ridgid won't take a dado blade -- or if you have to jump through all kinds of hoops to replace the defective arbor -- for pete's sake, just get rid of the thing.
Take it BACK and hie thee to Sears and get the 22124 (w/ the Biesemeyer fence) -- or at least the mid-range 22114. Get a Sears Universal Mobile Base for the saw while you're at it (it's an HTC base in "disguise").
You likely will not need it, but the on-site srvice / replacement warranty agreement from Sears isn't a bad extra to add on. It doesn't cost much and it does add some degree of Peace of Mind -- something you might need with your Ridgid experience.
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Centaur--
I have read most all the threads on your issue wth the Rigid TS. I honestly beleive that you do not have a tough decision. As I see it, you bought a product in this case a TS. It does not meet all of your expectations, it has known bad history with the arbor not capable of taking a dado set. And yes dados will be an important part of the overall capabilities in your shop. Regardless of the OPINIONS of the one guy that is so against TS dados, you will have projects that call for making dados.
OK the answer is easy---take it back. The TS does not do what it should. Why accept this? There are way too many other TS models out there to choose from. Frankly, the Ridgid would have been about mid way to the bottom of my choices.
Check out Grizz, you will get a good product at a great price.
Even paying 70 bucks more for the price increase makes it a GREAT value.
Have a happy new year.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
If I understand correctly that the "problem" is a short arbor that will not accept stacking dados, I had that same problem with my first saw, which was a bench top Delta. I could get it up to abour 1/2", but no wider. The reason (excuse) I received from them was that the saw was not rated or powerful enough to support wider dado use. I'm sure Rigid would not want to use that line.
Hey GuysWell I already knew the answer that i would get back from most of you and that was to bring the saw back. So that is was is happening bringing the saw back tomorrow and I have already purchased a Grizzly. I got the contractors model 2 hp left tilt. Sure I will be happy with it. Thanks for the input guys.Later centaur76
Hi Jimbo - Short arbors has been an issue with some saws over the years but is not the issue with the arbor on the 3650. The 3650 has an arbor that as spot with a narrow diameter that causes problems for stacked dado heads...one of the chippers sits in that detent and produces uneven dados.
http://www.firstteach.com/ridgid/ts3650arbor.jpg
Thanks for clarifying. I'm sure you don't want to jery rig a new saw, but if the detent is otherwise smoot sided, and you just want to make the chipper sit centered, what aboout filling the detent with epoxy or other hardner? The nut actually holds the blades in place, the arbor is just a centering device. Just a thought. Best of luck with that problem. I considered that saw when I purchased 9 months ago but went another direction. I would have been in your shoes because I do use dados.
I'm sure you saw this already, but just in case, there is another string running called something like "ts help" in which a poster has described his temporary solution to the problem, involving use of epoxy. Coincidentally, I just proposed the same solution on this string. He suggests that it works. If you otherwise like the saw, I would use that fix and run with it.
Jimbo yeah I've seen I think just about every forum to do with the ts3650 here and on other sites. Thank You though, I returned the table saw and I am now waiting for the grizzly 2hp left tilt. I just didn't feel right keeping a saw for so much money and having to fix it. I felt it was the right decision to do. I have to admit John W. from fine woodworking and the review he gave of the saw had a lot to do with me buying the saw. But hey no one and nothing is perfect they give you thirty days to get your money back and that is what I did. I seen some other posters giving John some crap about how his review is responsible for them buying the saw that's just bogus. As soon as I got the saw home i knew of the problem and started researching it. That gave me the time I needed to make an informed decision and return the saw. Just one more bump in the road.
later Centaur76
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