Replies

1. 
   nigelUsa | Apr 02, 2002 02:24am | #1

   I had the same concerns as you when looking for a new table saw. I ended up with the Dewalt 746k. This model comes with the 50" rails and sliding table. Dust colection is much better than most, fence works fine, supplied blade cuts great, for an outfeed table build a cabinet of the right height ( $25 solid core door with formica and 3/4 " plywood) never had a problem with lack of power, right blade makes or brakes the cut, try cutting a 2x4 with a plywood blade!! after a years use I am still happy with it. like any tool or device things could be improved.

1. 
   Sancho | Apr 02, 2002 06:42am | #2

   My advice to you would be to save your money. Go to the local college and learn woodworking. While your learning the techniques you'll be also learning the most important thing in woodworking..SAFETY.  All the tools in the world arent gonna do you any good if you dont have any fingers or miss a eye ball. Also this way you can take your time develope your skills and buy the tools you really need and like . . Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

1. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 02, 2002 04:08pm | #4

   Ron - as yoda might say - to the point you are.

   Thanks for the advice - I had actually thought about going this route, and wasn't able to find classes nearby that seemed applicable.  I went to a woodworking show in the area recently and sat in on the demos by the Marc Adams rep - good stuff.  They offer classes at their Indiana school, but they seemed pricey and it would be 5+ hours on the road.  I still may consider this.

   I may also take another look around in the area, or consider taking a class or two at the local Woodcraft store.

   As for SAFETY - this is a concern for me not only for myself but for my kids (I want to make sure they can't get in the workshop, and if they somehow do that nothing will turn on).  Thanks for the straightforward thoughts.

1. 
   JOSEPH2238 | Apr 05, 2002 05:08pm | #16

   STCat,

   Shop safety and kids. 

   I have to children ages 3 and 7.  When I ran the electric to the shop area, I put in a lockable disconnect switch then feed the power into a small breaker panel.  I also put twist lock plugs on all the power tools that are 110 volt because there were existing outlets in the area.  I made up an adapter that I keep locked up incase I need to use the tool out of the shop.

   Joe.

1. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 05, 2002 06:21pm | #17

   Thanks again to all of you for your insights.

   I've gone full circle - I was leaning heavily towards the Dewalt for about $900 w/ a mobile base and outfeed table, then I started pricing jointers and planers and reconsidered a Delta at $600 (36-444 = 30" UniRip T-Square fence) with the idea I could use the savings to buy a planer for $300 - $400.  But I really like the idea of the Biese, and that would bring the cost up to $830 and result in no savings to buy a planer with.

   Amazon also has a 36-431k 30" Besie that comes w/ a 36-205 sliding miter jig for $850.  It seems everyone who buys a saw in this price range upgrades the miter jig.

   I know that if I owned a saw for a few years I would have definite opinions on what I should have bought (if different) - c'mon guys, please share your preferences in this $500 - $900 price category.

   Thanks in advance!!

2. 
   fdampier | Apr 05, 2002 06:21pm | #18

   I can tell you what not to get.  Don't buy an "american brand" because they are all made in tiawain.  I own a Delta platnuim edition now and believe me as soon as I can find someone who wants it, ( it's about 4 years old and The first $200.00 owns it)  I'm upgrading to the Grizzly 12 inch table saw.

     everything I've purchased from Grizzly I'm happy with.  Wish I could say that about Delta.

      My Delta is so miserable That more often than not I grab a straight edge and use my Skil saw (worn drive Mag 77) to rip stuff.  Then I run everthing over the 8 inch jointer (Grizzly) No table saw, no matter how well tuned up it is will cut straight enough to join two pieces together.  Now there are those who insist that they can hand plane everything to perfection.  Some might but they weren't born with that skill. for the rest of us mere mortals we use power tools.

      To me if you have a decent straight edge to use as a fence, and a circular saw you can achieve everything that a table saw does.   NO!  you shouldn't try to cross cut pieces with a table saw.  I know you see it done, I know that thousands of cabinet makers do it hundreds of times a day but to me a much faster easier tool to use is a sliding compound miter saw.

     My three first tools would be,

        Sliding compound miter saw, jointer, and band saw.

     (now I wish I'd followed my advice, my fisrt power tool was a table saw)

3. 
   Sancho | Apr 09, 2002 02:24am | #20

   Interesting frenchy cuz I have a Delta Platinum contractors and love it.  Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

4. 
   fdampier | Apr 09, 2002 03:12am | #21

   The Delta was my first major woodworking equipment purchase and I really expected good things.  Delta had a good reputation and I saw a demo that kinda convinced me.   It was marginal as far as power goes right from the start.  I tried to rip Hard Maple into strip flooring.  Long before I had completed 500 bd.ft. I gave up. I reharpened the blade twice and then got a thin kerf blade thinking that would help. Nothing did.

      It's OK doing cross cutting work and on plywood/ OSB it's OK but on oak it's a dead stall, I can't rip 6/4 oak or 8/4 black walnut, no matter how slow I feed it.   Pine and other soft woods will cut but by now I'm so dissatisfied that I told my brother-in-law that he can have it.  (and I have no intention of taking it back no matter how much he begs)

5. 
   Sancho | Apr 10, 2002 03:20am | #24

   Frenchy,

   I would call Delta cuz somethng isnt right. I am building a kitchen right now out of hickory. I got my blade sharpened and havent had a problem with it. I do have to cut slow on long pieces(5' or so) but with hickory as you know is a very hard wood. Oak hasnt been a problem even 8/4 stock. I cut some for  some thresholds the piece was 8/4 X6" about 5' long and didnt have a probllem with that either. Give Delta a call and talk to a tech rep could be something wrong with the motor.  If its under 2 years old its still under warrenty so try calling them.  We are talking about the Platinum series contractor right. Thats what I got. Do you have the Beismeyer or Unifence with it. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

6. 
   sschefer | Apr 10, 2002 03:36am | #25

   Ron, having followed the trial and tribulations of French's Timber Framed house, I can see why he might think the Delta is junk. He really needs a 12" monster power machine for what he's doing. I can't speak directly for him but I would bet that hes not happy with the Delta more for what it was promised to do than any defect it might have. I've had quite a few people steer me away from Delta equipment and even did a lot of research into the parent company. Seems they really had some major QC and support staff problems. In fact they were serious enough that they were forced to report them in their SEC filings to account for heavy sales losses. Fortunately the parent company has begun to turn things around and the Delta product line is once again surfacing as a quality piece of equipment. If I would have waited a little longer, I would probably be looking much closer at Delta now then the Jet that I bought Although, I'm pretty darn happy with the Jet.

   What do you say Frenchy, am I pretty close or way off track as usual.Steve - in Northern California

7. 
   fdampier | Apr 10, 2002 06:01am | #26

   You nailed it!  Promises not kept, parts promised but never sent. A lecture by the woman answering the service line when on third call to service center about my language, (OK a did use a cuss word but I was having trouble controlling anger) Instead of handing me off to her supervisor as I asked she  wanted to handle it herself, causing my cussing.....

     Delta sold me a portable planner that came without handles.  It took over 6 weeks for them to correct that problem.  (hence the repeated calls to service dept.)

    I guess the reality of the quality was such a disappointment, that it clouded my judgement.  When the second major kick back in as many days threw the saw completely out of alignment for the second time.  I refused to spend the time it takes to align it again.

       I

2. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 02, 2002 04:03pm | #3

   Re: the Dewalt - yes, the full size version  looks fun - did you get the whole shabang that retails for around $1500?  Or just upgrade a few things?

1. 
   nigelUsa | Apr 03, 2002 05:05am | #11

   I got it just like it shows in the books for the 746k. cost me $1478 inc tax. They had 10% off at woodcraft on everything so.........

   Check with some of the local wood tool supply stores, one near me gives 10% of when you spend over $200 when applying for store credit card. Where are you located?

2. 
   WillOBrien | Apr 02, 2002 04:18pm | #5

   You post calls for many many comments but I only have time for a few so here goes:

   • Ron has a great point about taking a class.  You might even be able to build your entertainment center in one of the classes - an advanced one.
   • As for wood, given your limited tools and experience you might want to consider cabnet grade playwood - Home Depot and Lowes are not the best sources for wood by the way
   • A table saw is a good tool to get early because of its utility but as you see it is a big ticket item.  I would (and many others) would encourage you to start with lower end (good quality used machines would be best) machines and upgrade when you have more experience, more budget and a better idea of what all of your needs will be and the rest of your tool assortment.  You should find posts in this site by Kim Carlton Graves and follow the link to his site.  He provides great guidance to new wood workers on setting up their shop, purchasing machines, tools etc.
   • An entertainment center sounds like an advanced project for a brand new woodworker.  It can be done, and people with a lot of natural talent can be successful with it on the first try but for most of use it would likely be a bit advanced without having had some lessons and experience.  The problems with it being your first project are that it could take a lot more time than you think to complete it, you could waste a lot of wood because of mistakes and it could cause a lot of frustration that could risk turning you off of woodworking -- which is an awesome hobby / profession.
   • In a basement shop  you will probably want to put your big machines on wheels so that you can move them out of the way when not in use -- unless you have a really big basement.  If this is the case you might NOT want the longest fence rails you can get as they will make it more difficult to move around and store.

   Good luck and I hope you enjoy woodworking.

   Will

3. 
   Jeff_NC | Apr 02, 2002 08:34pm | #6

   It sounds like you were in the same place as I was about 1 year ago when I got my ts.  I have been in slow build-up with regards to my shop for awhile mostly using handtools and working at a friend's shop.  However, the ts was the most significant step forward so far.  My approach was to establish a budget and then buy it by the weight.  I ended up with the Powermatic 64 (Artisan's) saw and have never regretted it.  It is very stable, easy to adjust, and it has plenty enough power for what I need it for.  Putting it on wheels is also an excellent idea, I can wheel mine next to my workbench and use that as an outfeed table...nice for bigger pieces.

   Start small and build your way up (no pun intended).  I have found that I am much more interested in learning new techniques than production mostimes...an advantage of a hobby as opposed to a profession.  Every once in a while I finish something to show my wife and justify making her park the car in the drive:-)  I am glad I have approached it this way, otherwise I would have a bunch of stuff at a level of quality that I would not be satisfied with.

   Jeff

1. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 02, 2002 09:45pm | #8

   Jeff,

   thanks for the thoughts.

   In following up on previous posts, one local college I looked into had 4 classes I could take in a series - each one was just under $1000.  That's a bit too much for me.  I think I'll try the local Woodcraft store - a 4 hour class on cabinet construction for $36 seems more my speed, even though there is little if any hands on.

   Somebody suggested to me today that I should consider buying a planer because I would save quite bit on wood - in making a large cabinet (the entertainment center) I might pay for the planer.  They also said if I didn't want to go w/ the jointer right away, I could use a good router (not my inexpensive one) to get the right angle.  Their advice was not to use a table, just a straight edge to allow me to use the router handheld.

   I'm leaning towards that DeWalt tablesaw w/ the portable base - I just wish I could find it for under $800 instead of the $900 it's on sale for at the store.

1. 
   tablesaw635 | Apr 03, 2002 12:44am | #9

   Howdy-

   Lots of good food for thought here-- a discussion on tablesaws leading into some equally interesting questions on getting started in woodworking in general.

   In general I recommend the Woodcraft class, even though there is no hands on.  You'll certainly learn something, and you'll probably meet some other people in a similar situation who will be good to bounce ideas off. 

   In addition to the going the route of organized classes, here's another option you may want to look at: finding a local professional or hotshot hobbyist who is all set up and has a proclivity toward instruction.  I teach 1-on-1 classes for hobbyists of varying skill levels, and the time is very personalized.  People get exactly what they're looking for, and all the attention is on them.  My rates are $25 an hour, minimum time of 1 hour.  I do this largely because I get a kick out of the mentorship angle, and because I'm heading towards teaching & writing about woodworking, and this is a great way for me to hone my skills at explaining, etc.

   If you look around, odds are good that you might find somebody in your area that would be interested in this kind of relationship.  It might be a one-time thing, or it may be ongoing-- that you come in every Wednesday from 3-5pm.  This person may also be interested in giving instruction/assistance for free if you do some work around their shop.  I say this because I've done quite a bit of it.  I've had folks who just come once or twice to get over a hurdle on a particular project that they're doing on their own, and I've had interns who have come 1 day a week for a year.  During that time, they design a project of their own and build it using my tools and space, and they get trained to contribute to my production work.  This won't work for everybody, but with the right combination of personalities and circumstances, it can be very rewarding for everybody.  I still have an intern who, after a year and a half, stops in a couple of times per week and always wants to lend a hand with whatever I'm working on.  His skills have improved immeasurably by getting some focused instruction, and he has a lot more confidence and knowledge about how furniture is designed and built.  I'm happy to see him come in the door, because he's always eager to stand in front of the drum sander for an hour to work on one of my projects.  No money has ever changed hands.  He has, by now, a respectable basement shop of his own, but he still comes in to use my sander, mortiser etc (stuff he doesn't have).

   So, this got a little long-winded, but my point is that there are a lot of ways to learn about woodworking, and I've found that people can learn a lot very quickly is the right sort of mentorship experience.  While there is nothing wrong with buying a tablesaw now, it seems to me that the best use of your time and energy may be to try to do some work/learn some things in some one else's shop first-- and in the meantime, just keep saving up for tools of your own when the time is right. 

   Oh, one good example of this is my own history in woodworking: I'm entirely self-taught, never went to a class or asked anybody anything when I had questions.  And while I ended up doing fine, well, it was not the easiest way to do it.  I remember trying to cut my first sliding dovetails: 8 wasted hours, who knows how much wasted curly maple, and boy wouldn't it have been easier and more satisfying (to say nothing of cheaper) to have asked for help or to have had a 45 minute lesson from an expert?

   This may or may not feel relevant to your situation, but its something to think about.  I'm sure that I'm not the only one who, in hindsight, feels that an ounce of help would've been worth a pound of struggling to figure it out myself.

   Best wishes,Chris Gleason

   Gleason Tableworks

   http://www.interestingfurniture.com

1. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 08, 2002 08:30pm | #19

   Chris,

   I don't know why, but I didn't see your first post.  I went back to reread the whole thread and discovered it.

   Thanks for the thoughts - I checked out your website and only wish you were in my area - it's a great idea, and I may look around to try to find some shops in my area, if nothing else to go in and ask about some of their tool recommendations, and then maybe it would lead to something along the lines that you suggest.

   Thanks.

4. 
   mwinkle | Apr 02, 2002 09:28pm | #7

   I looked at the Grizzley at their place in Penna.  Looks like a good piece for the money.  Have talked with a few usere - they say mostly good things.  Fence seems quite good.   Either the 10" Z  contractor or the cabinet model

5. 
   texastom65 | Apr 03, 2002 02:47am | #10

   I agree.  There is a lot of good advise stated above.  My biggest concern would be you trying to tackle such a large project with little experience.  FWIW, I think you would benefit a lot more by attending classes where/when you can, reading as much as possible, and starting out small...maybe start with some end and/or coffee tables to match your future entertainment center.  You will gain a lot of experience in this time as well as a lot of confidence.  And, it sure helps justify those investments in your shop if the wife can see resuluts early.

   For myself, I recently bought the Powermatic 64A...my first table saw...and love it.  I've been woodworking for about 10 years, but everything has typically been smaller furniture-type projects done with almost all hand tools.  The kids are finally getting old enough to be self-sufficient, and so I am finally able to take the step to start equipping a real shop and devoting more time.  But, even though I may not have been in the shop as much as I would have like all that time, I have been reading books and magazines to gain as much knowledge as possible.

   Good luck.

6. 
   Trikidiki1 | Apr 03, 2002 05:36am | #12

   Buying a table saw and building an entertainment unit.  GO FOR IT.  I did wood as a hobby for 20+ years and it is now my second career after 32 years in hi-tech.  My hero Norm Abram said in his first book " a man who buys cheap tools is destined to buy it again.  I would add "if the cheap tools havn't driven him from the craft."  Table saw rule 1 - ya gotta have a good fence (rigid - repeatable - adaptable to other jigs).  Over a dozen years ago I decide the delta contractors saw with a 32" unifence upgrade was my ideal.  For the most part it has seved well.  Once calibrated it repeats all day long.  It is rigid.  But not so adaptable to other things.  Today I would buy the Powermatic unit.  I understand the Dewalt is a good unit.  WHAT ever you do buy only good tools or wait till you can.  I saw the note about going to a night class.  Maybe.  Safety for sure.  A long time ago I read "treat that saw blade like a rattle snake and as long as it moves never take you eye off it.  In over 12 year (with the guard in the attic the day I unpacked the saw) I have not had as much as a nick.  Always think about what's next.  Plans for what ever can come from Woodsmith.  You can find them on the web too.  Good luck!

1. 
   observer | Apr 04, 2002 06:55am | #13

   There seems to now be two of us here Dick. They've got to do something about the open nickname thing here to avoid confusion.

   Dick

   Edited 4/3/2002 11:57:37 PM ET by Dick

7. 
   Upraiser | Apr 04, 2002 04:27pm | #14

   Lots of good advice given, however you need to consider one other very important woodworking tool.  A good jointer.

   You indicate you want to build some nice furniture, I presume you will use solid wood, as in hardwood boards, at least for some of it.

   You will find that hardwood and most any soft wood will not have a straight, true edge.   When you try to run that through a table saw you will have nothing but problems.  I don't care which kind of saw you have.

   Get the best jointer you can afford.  An 8" with a long bed is ideal, but a good 6" is fine but get a long bed and get a good quality one. 

   Then when you rip some material on your table saw it will cut true and not jam, run off line, and not be so prone to kick back.

   Take the class on woodworking, pay special attention to the saftey rules and tips.

   Happy woodworking.

   Curt

8. 
   terryb | Apr 05, 2002 12:34am | #15

   I had a delta contractor's saw for years and loved it. I'm not sure the quality is as good now though and you're never sure if it's Taiwanese made. I'm pretty sure, for instance, that the Powermatic Artisan stuff is Taiwanese now. I've graduated to a Powermatic 66 and love it but if I were looking for a good saw for less than $800, I'd buy the Ridgid that HD carries. I checked it out for another newbie woodworker and it looked pretty substantial for the price. He bought it and is very happy with it.

9. 
   jerrycatz | Apr 09, 2002 09:51pm | #22

   Wow! This is turning into another great discussion on "knots". 

   Like most other wood workers, I enjoy watching Norm Abrams.  But I seem to have a more limited budget for tools, more limited space, and more limited time than he does.  So, when I went began setting up my basement workshop, I got some advice from others which you might find useful.

   • Write down what projects you plan to make this year and tack it to the wall.
   • After reviewing the above, think about which tools you need.
   • Set a realistic budget for the year. Include the cost of wood, paint, stain, finishes, brushes, hand tools as well as the bigger power tools.
   • Think the entire project through from beginning to end.  (i.e. will the  table/cabinet/shelf/bed/sofa even fit up the basement stairs?).
   • Dust collection is more important than one initially thinks.
   • Check your circuit-breaker//fuss-box regarding enough amps.
   • Its not the table saw brand name that is important -- its the fence AND blade.
   • The same is true for most tools.  Its not the brand name, its learning the correct care and useage.
   • Sharpening is more important than one initially thinks.
   • A great fence and blade will make poor cuts if the saw is not aligned correctly. 
   • The same is true of planes, chisels, saws, drills etc
   • Clamps, clamps, clamps.  In other words, have on hand a lot of clamps.
   • Avoid buying specialty tools for "one-off" projects.  Usually, you can find some tool you already have to get the job done.

   P.S. I narrowed down my TS purchase to Delta and DeWalt.  I went with the Delta 36-444 and spent the difference on other items like clamps, router bit, dust vac. etc.

   P.S.S. The Delta was set-up nearly perfectly from the box.

1. 
   SlyTheCat | Apr 09, 2002 10:33pm | #23

   Jerrycatz,

   from one cat to another - thanks for the advice and insight.

   I lean towards the Delta, but then I go to a Woodcraft and I walk out thinking I'll never be happy w/out the Dewault.  Also, The Delta w/ the better fence (and perhaps that is debatable) is basically the same price. ($850)

   I just got back from a different Woodcraft than I've been going to - and I'm now leaning towards the Dewault TS.  I like the dust collection (one of your points), I like the fence (although it doesn't seem as versatile as the Beise).  Woodcraft in general really seems to push this saw, and people walking in who have bought one from there seem very happy with it.

   I also think I'll buy the Delta 12.5" planer (now $290 at Woodcraft, or $320 at Amazon w/ a stand) + the dust hood ($15).

   I'll try to joint my wood w/ my cheap router and a good bit - if it doesn't work I'll buy a better router or a jointer.

   BTW, this morning Norm made some raised panels w/ his table saw set at  an 8 degree tilt and they turned out great.  What a life he has!