I am looking for industry standards or norms on how lumber is measured (tallied) at lumberyards. Or, how it is supposed to be tallied. I recall seeing something years ago on this topic, but can’t recall where it was.
While buying lumber earlier today, I discovered that the invoiced Board feet were different from the BF I computed using the tally figures. After some amount of ho-hemming, they indicated that they gross up the BF from net to gross. When I said “Huh?” they said that they have to figure out how many BF of lumber going into the kiln it took to produce the KD lumber, and that is what I get to pay for. Then didn’t have an answer as to why that is not built into the unit-price, as I believe all other places do. The difference was 7%, rather than the 4% they claimed.
I understand that everyone has to make money. I understand a price is a price, take it or leave it. I just like the “rules of engagement” to be transparent, and am curious to understand industry practices and standards – I believe these exist.
I have little doubt that the yard will say “This is the way we do it, if you don’t like it, go elsewhere”, so may end up spending my $$s there regardless of their practices relative to the industry.
Replies
Hi Alfred,
There are 3 sources that you might want to check out!
The first is the Western Wood Products Association: http://www.wwpa.org
The second is the Forest Products Laboratory: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us
The third is the National Hardwood Lumber Association: http://nathardwood.org
The Western Wood Products Association and the NHLA are the trade groups that set the standards for their respective members in the lumber industry. This might be what your looking for!
I've always paid the same amount I was quoted and invoiced for the BF I've ordered. I don't know why these guys marked up 3% over what they quoted you!
Those daring young men in their flying machines!
I usually deal with Steve Wall http://www.walllumber.com/default.asp -- the only times my charges have varied from actual order have been when I've given them specific lengths/widths as minimums (i.e., six pieces 5/4 x 8 in x 6 ft) and they've had to supply a seven or eight foot board instead.
Otherwise, an order for say, 30 bf of 8/4 mahogany is either 30 bf or a foot or so over, again due to stock on hand.
Don't mind paying for the extra, it gets used for something. I'd mind getting charged for an extra 3% that I didn't get, though.
Offhand, I'd say you're getting shafted.
My 2¢.
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Hi Alfred ,
Softwoods and Hardwoods are not always tallied in the same way, just as they are graded differently .The main ways Hardwood will be tallied that I know of are as follows : A block tally , this is where say a stack or unit is 4 feet wide and 8 feet long , each layer is assumed or estimated to have 32 square feet , some may be less . A net tally is where each board is tallied , and typically the count is very accurate . Now you didn't mention if the stock you purchased was straight line ripped or straight edged ? but if it was , a standard factor of yup, 7% is added to the net tally after straight lining .This material is sold also as s3s , smooth 3 sides . Several times in the last 25 years the tally was off , when I phoned the supplier they trusted me to make the adjustment . Don't assume you have been ripped off , the count may be right on according to the method used , check it out .
I hope this helps dusty
You didn't mention if you were buying rough or S2SSL1E. My recommendation- ask what they add to the talley for straightling & surfacing before you buy or when you get the cost/BF. Most of the time it is 7-15%. Needless to say I deal with the guys that add on the lower end. When they buy the stock it is rough & send it to the mill for surfacing & straightlining. They have to recover the loss of material somewhere.
Folks, thanks for all the replies. I am going to peruse all the input carefully. I did want to clarify my post right away because I see it was less-than-clear.
The stuff I bought was in the rough - unplaned, undressed etc. They billed me for 7% above the BF times the unit price per BF. When I pressed them to explain they said they had grossed up the BF 4%. In fact they had grossed it up 7%. In my view the number they used, 7%, is less important than the fact that they used any number at all to "gross up". If 7% is OK to use, then so is 3% or 17% or any other number. Also, while I did not ask for a quote, on previous occasions when I have purchased lumber from that particular supplier, I have been shown a "price list" that showed BF prices for various species, and the premiums beyond certain widths and certain thicknesses. I do not recall ever being told of "grossing up" the board-footage from the tally.
Edited 10/24/2004 12:00 am ET by Alfred
Alfred ,
Well , now that we know the boards were in the rough , I would tend to agree with Leon and yourself. It seems since the boards were not planed or straight lined any losses would be from the kiln. This has always been factored in to the price as opposed to a separate fee.It makes little sense , and I also would feel like I was being , cheated or ripped off .Now if this place has always done this and is still less money than the others and the quality is there , they can't be all wrong .Maybe all the others factor the gross up into the prices per bf 4-17 % ?
dusty
Wow, you guys are looking at this all wrong!! If I buy a piece of 4/4 wood, and it is rough, it was 4/4 when it went in the kiln. Reagardless of what size it is when it comes out I still pay for it as 4/4 wood. What LOSS are you talking about?????? Time to learn what 4/4 really is I guess!!! 4/4 wood is 4/4 before lin drying and maybe 15/16ths after. they charge you for 4/4 wood, not 15/16's. Where is the loss that you guys are all claiming are there????? If I pay for 4/4 then I know that I'll get something that will surface out to 3/4 or better. this isn't rocket science. these systems have been around for years. You guys ae acting like it takes an 8/4 piece of wood to make 1/2 inch stock!!!! Now, let's take width into consideration. If it's above a half inch, round up. if it's below round down. Every single place I've ever been to sells it that way, except for one. he sells on actual width but he also deducts for ANY defects (waine, mis cuts, chainsaw cuts into the lumber, real bad knots, etc). I'd have to believe that most places do the same thing.
Moral of the story!! Your lumber yard is shafting you!!!!!!
TWOODWARD15 ,
The loss we were speaking of is in the width of the boards during drying. The point is the oringinal purchaser paid by the bf , there were more bf before kiln drying than afterwards. You say 1/2" one way or the other is no big deal. Perhaps on the retail level this could be true , but if I purchase 100 or 200 boards 10 or 12 feet long and there is a decrepancy on each board that adds up pretty quick , either us or the supplier will eat it on the tally. Look at a tally stick , and you will see the graduations for different widths and lengths are incremently accurate .You would think the loss is factored into the price in most cases . I would agree in Alfreds case they gave him intercourse with no loving .
dusty
Folks, thank you again for the continuing input. I have been pondering on this topic some, and here is where I come out.
1. f4fanatic, I checked out those links and so far did not find what I was looking for, though there is a wealth of info at those links. At some point I’ll delve more in the links. As I recall, the standards/specifications I am looking for are along the lines of how twoodwrad15 buys lumber. For example, I believe they lay out how major defects are to be excluded from the tally. They specify what is a major defect, and things such as a major knot within 12” of the end of the board is to be treated differently from a similar knot midway in the board. Or, how to treat an end that has major splits in it. And so forth.
2. I am converging on the conclusion that I do not feel good when I buy lumber this way, and would prefer to take my business elsewhere. It will be somewhat more inconvenient, and perhaps the all-in price will be more. But, I will feel better about it. And that is important to me. I think when we make a choice, we pay the price for it, and in this case literally. However I do not intend to argue with the fellows at the yard where I had this experience, in case for the occasional purchase I find it more convenient to go there.
3. The preceding said, I should point out I woodwork for fun. Therefore I can afford the luxury of shunning situations that I find distasteful. If I were in it commercially, I might view it differently. It seems wise to compare the all-in price, including inconvenience and time. Having “discovered” the practice, at least one knows what one is in for, and it is not a situation of “intercourse with no loving”.
This discussion has been enlightening. It seems I am not the only who takes a dim view of the fore-mentioned tallying practices. So I will exercise my choice, and hardly imagine that the yard will go out of business! And that is fine with me.
Different dealers do things different ways, and I always regard my first trip to a wood dealer as an experiment. But I've never heard of a surcharge being added on rough lumber. This is starting to remind me of the car dealers' trick of adding charges for dealer prep, paperwork, advertising, storage, the gas in the tank, the air in the tires, etc....
Ultimately, you have to look at the bottom line - how does their price, with the markup, compare to your other sources? Is it good wood? Is it cheap enough to outweigh your distaste for their business practices?
I have seen it done many ways depending on degree of finish and starting volume of the board. My supplier is a local wholesaler to all the cabinet shops in my area. All his lumber is F3S. His invoices end up about 15% more BF than I calculate actual. When asked, this is due to the waste of the one side having a strait on it and front and back planed. In other words calculations are on rough board ft. Its his choice to decide how to price his product. My only other choice is Wall lumber who is about a 150 miles away.
I take my total cost and divide that by my calculated actual BF and the $/bf is still cheaper than Wall with a delivery charge or gas money to go get it. Its all #1 stuff (although I wish they had some lower quality stuff) and it's ready to rip as soon as I get it home. So even though the actual BF is less that indicated on the invoice, it's still cheaper. Try my method and next time go to a competitor (if you are lucky and have one local) and compare the two. I try to look at the bottom line. I would caution though that when comparing suppliers compare apples to apples. If one vendor is all rough 4s and your vendor who is shorting you on bf is finishing it in any way, take that into consideration. Good luck.
Alfred,
I once dealt with a company that consistantly rounded up the tally. When I questioned the owner, he said that was to make up for "losses in the kiln". In other words, that 9 3/4" wide board was 10" wide when thay bought it, so that's what he charged for. When I asked if he really thought that a 9 1/8" board was 10" wide going into the kiln, he said that's the way things were, take it or leave it. I never went back.
Others have rounded width less than 1/2" down to the nearest inch, over 1/2", up . If you're getting more than a couple boards, it averages out.
Then there's Lloyd, at a local yard. If you tell him you want 150 bd ft, he'll go to the stack and start shoving random width boards at you, as fast as he can pull them and you can stack. All of a sudden he'll stop, "there ya are". When you tally it, there's 152 bf, maybe 155. The office charges for 150.
Different yards have their own "systems". Just have to find one that you are comfortable with, if you have a choice.
Regards,
Ray
Al,
Having read all the posts previous to mine I would like to point out that some yards sell on what is commonly called the "green tally" and they mark up seven percent as a general rule to account for shrinkage in the kiln from green to dry which can be significant. You have to decide if you want to do business this way but a lot of reputable yards do so. Others just mark up their board footage price to cover the difference in shrinkage. It simply amounts to choosing what you wish to do and being familiar with your chosen suppliers practices.
My main point here is that there are a number of yards who operate this way especially those who deal in volume purchases.
Those who deal in smaller purchases usually have the price jacked up to cover shrinkage, handling, packaging, and other costs involved.
but the practice of selling on the green tally is common in the industry
hope this helps.
Mark
Mark, thanks for your input. I appreciate your balancing perspective. My take is:- there are varying practices out there- as long as the norms around any of those practices is clear, I suppose most any of those practices is OK
I understand that lumberyards, much as any one else, have to make money. Communication and sensitivity to the needs of the range of customers they cater to are probably not high in the consciousness of the average lumberyard. Perhaps the $s bottom line for the same stack of boards from a “green tally” outfit, and “KD tally” outfit, may not be very different - quality, geography and competitive factors apart (how do you do that?!).
Still, I’d like to see a green tally outfit clearly post that their rates are green tally rates, and that they compute green tally by marking the KD tally up. Or better still, every yard posts their practice, whatever it is.
Al,
You know when it really comes down to it, it is about building a relationship with your suppliers so that you know them and they know you . That doesn't happen overnight and if I were you I wouldn't burn any bridges. I have one supplier in particular who treats me very well because I have built a relationship with him as a customer.
A couple of years ago he got in a fresh shipment of walnut and was kind enough to let me go thru the whole stack before anyone else got to it. I chose all the wide sap free boards I could get my hands on and also any pieces with interesting grain. I ended up buying about a thousand bucks worth of it and created some nice pieces with it.
I also got some very wide cherry from him because he let me know he had just got some.
I am posting a pic of a Highboy I did in cherry.
The sides of the case were taken from one wide single cherry board from that trip.
They finished out at 17.5 inches and were sap free.
It is those kinds of relationships that help you to separate your pieces from the fun of the mill. Along with a heavy dose of skill as well.
heres the pic. maybe one of you guys can resize it for me as I am having problems with the computer and can't access Irfanview.
thanks
Really nice piece. Here is your picture resized for you.
Thanks bones .... I appreciate that. And thanks for resizing the pic. I had a lot of fun building that piece and a lowboy to match.
Bones, you beat me to it.
However, question. After I resized and cropped it in Photoshop 6, the b## image wouldn't upload.
Any ideas or suggestions appreciated.
Really nice piece, BTW. Roomie likes the tone of the finish.
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Wish I had done the piece. The photo was from the previous poster. He could not resize it so I did it for him. On your question on the problem with the image not uploading. By the image not uploading do you mean in the knots forum or your image editing package?
Sorry, should have been more specific.
I copied the image to desktop, then opened it in Photoshop, resized and cropped it.
When I went to post it, the attach files function wouldn't upload it from my desktop to the site. I'd closed the file, so it should have loaded, unless I mis-understood the instructions.
Thanks for the quick reply.Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Sounds like you did it right. I would check the properties of the file. Rt click on the image that is on your desktop. If the file was not corrupted then it may have been to large to load. If the upload function was grayed out (on knots) then you may have just been having issues with the connection. Reboot and try a different pic with a test msg. If you get it to load try the picture in question and if it still wont load then I would suspect the file is corrupt. Good luck.
Thanks, Bones. I appreciate the help.
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Must not like loading files from desktop. Odd. I re-saved it with a different file name and put it in a different file and it loaded right up.
Thanks again for the help.
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Nice piece.
Cropped and re-sized.
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
leon, thanks for the kind words.......glad you liked it
A lot of the problem has to do with dealing with both large and small customers.
Lumberyards often buy dry lumber based on the green tally. They base their price to customers on the green tally.
A large customer will buy a whole bunk of lumber. The green tally is written on the bunk and they pay for what they get.
A small customer will buy part of a bunk. The easy way to price the wood is to estimate the green tally from the dry tally.
I have a practice of NOT caring. I just ordered approximately 200 bdft (700 pounds) of lumber without asking for a price. I expect to be paying about $9/bdft. I expect the shipping will be $1/bdft.
But what I get is what I get and what I pay is what I pay.
One of the problems with being an amateur is that one can tend to think small! I agree that building a relationship is important. And, I would be better off just picking the lumber, paying what they ask for, and getting on with my life.
There are instances where I have been doing business with the same outfit 15 - 20 years (in matters other than lumber), and I feel good about it because they take care of me. At the previously discussed lumber yard, I buy on and off, but perhaps not enough that they know me or do anything special for me. I suppose the reality is that I am not contributing enough to their bottom line to be on their radar. So I'd better just get used to it.
In any case, at this point in my life I am getting fed up with buying small quantities (50 - 100 bf) at a time. I am going to explore ways to buy lumber in larger quantity. I am thinking a situation where I don't flip boards, just buy a batch, and I get what I get, and that is reflected in the price. I guess it'll come down to how much you have to buy in "bulk" this way, and how I could store it. I have plenty of open space, but not a shed or barn to put it in. One of these days!
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