Has anybody had any experience with the Taytools hand planes? I just saw an ad for them and they look good in the pics and they are price performers (a number 7 for about $150 plus shipping) https://taytools.com/collections/tools-hand-planes/products/taytools-7-jointer-bench-hand-plane
I’m sure they come from China but that doesn’t mean they are junk.
Should I take the plunge?
Replies
I wouldn't. Spending money chasing a bargain usually leads to more money down the road. Save your money, buy a plane once, and you'll never need to buy an upgrade.
This issue comes up all the time these days - are the less expensive planes - typically from China - that look like the more expensive ones from the US, Canada and even Britain .... as good as each other? If not, are the lacks in the Chinese planes easily fixable with a fettle or two so that they function as well as an LN, Veritas or Clifton?
Two sub-issues then arise:
* Is quality control of the variously re-labelled Chinese planes good or bad?
* Is it immoral or disloyal to buy these Chinese "copies" of Western-designed planes?
The Luban/Quangsheng manufacturer seems to be the supplier of many of these re-labelled Western-style planes. Sculling about the web one comes across the opinion that the quality of such planes can depend to a significant degree on the retailer/re-labeller who is selling them on.
Wood River seem to be Quangsheng planes re-labelled. They started out with poor quality control; and reviews in this magazine some 8 - 10 years ago pointed this out. Later reviews seem to indicate that the re-seller or their agents in the US had worked with Quangsheng to improve quality.
In Britain, Mathew Platt, owner of Workshop Heaven on-line tool emporium, seems to have spent a lot of time persuading not just Quangsheng but the likes of Narex to improve their quality control to a significant degree, because as a reseller of their stuff he wants it to improve his reputation, not provide a reason to avoid his shop.
But these Quangsheng planes seem to appear at various price points under various labels; and the price may reflect the degree of apparent quality control (or lack of it). Some Quangsheng planes are better than others, depending on who is reselling them, under what label, at what price.
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Many opine that the Chinese manufacturers have in some way "knocked-off" or stolen Western plane designs and should therefore be shunned as they have not invested the R&D money or are in some way in breach of a never-identified copyright or patent.
This one is hard to justify, as the Chinese planes are typically like Stanleys .... as are the LNs and Cliftons. Those designs are well out of copyright or patent; and one could "accuse" LN of "knocking-off" the Stanley designs. Stanley aren't bothered about it though.
Some argue that the "look" of the Chinese planes copies than of LN - brass bits and the like. That's not very convincing either. It's easy enough to distinguish the two by "look".
Incidentally, I'm not aware of any Chinese planes that look like the often radical redesigns of Veritas planes. But perhaps someone knows different?
There is a case for buying local or from one's own country. This has little to do with the political or moral merits and demerits of the various countries where planes are manufactured as such considerations are ideological - based on beliefs or preferences. Personally I tend a bit towards the nationalist but can also recognise the value of free trade in reducing the tendency to go to war in favour of the mutual co-operation engendered by international trade.
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So how to pick the right plane? It all depends. But it's as well to have as best an understanding of these dependencies as one can muster, rather than dismissing an option out of uninformed or blinkered prejudices.
Myself, I tend to buy Veritas, because they work well and are designed by the manufacturer, who does both design and manufacture to very high standards. But I wouldn't dismiss everything Chinese (or American) purely on "patriotic" grounds or because "they're all rubbish".
Most of my planes are, in fact, made by an ex-Zimbawe fellow living and working in New Zealand. He makes them to a design long ago begun by the Scottish plane makers of the C19th, with many modern improvements. Is that a bad buying decision by a citizen of The United Kingdom of England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland? :-)
Lataxe
Photo of Taytools hand plane looks identical to the #7 Grizzly plane:
https://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-H7568-22-Inch-Smoothing-Plane/dp/B000E30594
Mike
I will never, ever buy Wood River planes. They are thieves, plain and simple. Lie Nielsen adapted Stanley Bedrock designs that had not been made for many decades. They refined, developed, and made them better.
Wood River literally took Lie Nielsen planes, mailed them to China, and said "make these, for a maximum of xx dollars." You can see the casting marks where Wood River used the L-N plane as a mold, for crying out loud
There are many other examples of blatant ripoff of designs. Nope. I will never screw an American worker and company to save a few bucks in my own pocket. It's unconscionable.
hi, I came upon this page recently. If The LN casting was indeed used as a pattern there will be a difference in size which would confirm that fact.
Grey cast iron has a shrinkage rate of just over 2% on cooling so the casting made from an existing machined one will be smaller than that machined one and the size difference will be even greater after machining the new casting, probably around 4% - but that's just an informed guess.
Brass and bronze have an even greater shrinkage rate, around 3%
After Stanley bought Bailey's patents (for a relative pittance compared with subsequent profits) they treated him very badly including ruinng him with an expensive court case. Not exactly an ethical company.
'Rip- off' is a typically emotive term. Once patents etc are expired it is possible for any company to produce products to the original specifications - including the original rights holder, in the USA patent rights on designs last for 14 years. If LN exploited an out of date patent then so can others. Where they are based is immaterial.
If you buy a good plane like a lie Nielsen or Veritas and you have problems the problem is you and not the plane, if you buy off shore planes it could be a number of things and you could chase the problem forever In my opinion lie Nielsen is under priced for what you get and will last forever and you will never be disappointed with your purchase.cheers
Bargain tool shopping seems to be a subject that draws out well thought out responses. Before I get in trouble, let me qualify the terms I am using in this post. I qualify a"a real one" as the one I really want, the one that respected sources highly recommend or the one that is best for the job.
All other arguments aside, I have a 60% rule. If I am going to spend 60% of what "a real one" (whatever that may be) costs, I save up and buy the real one. After a few buyer's regret episodes, the drama of which could sell soap, I decided my time, effort and money were worth better results.
I am now a diligent and informed consumer. I enjoy great deals and bargains BUT, they are not what drive me. When looking for something, let's pick my track saw since I never thought I would bother with a track saw . . . I read reviews by sources that do not receive advertising dollars from the manufacturer. I read forum posts by folks who own the item in question. I immerse myself in discussions about the item I am considering.
I have a short-list of features that are important to me. I then dig through all the data that I have gathered and sort the wheat from the chaff. I end up with what I consider reliable information and opinion. I compare these to my short-list and select the best fit.
If the "also ran" products are 60% of the price of the winner of that process, I save up a while and buy the winner. If I can get something that I will not regret for %40 of what "a real one" costs I may go that way. Exceptions are tools that will be used once or rarely like my Harbor Freight Sawzall or angle grinder. These bargains have been great but, I use them once or twice every few years.
P.s. Taylor has been around a few years and I wish them well. They sell all sorts of things.
I've bought a lot of things from Taylor. Name brands, not knockoffs. They have been good to deal with in that respect.
Jay Bates had a video blog that showed up this past weekend on YouTube (and on his channel). He was talking about a good quality for the money hand plane. It might have been Taylor but I'm not certain. Check out his vblog.
@ John C2 I really have to laugh at that comment, seeing that just about every LN plane is based on a Stanley bedrock, or in some cases like the shoulder planen an exact duplicate.
So they copied a copier, so what?
I have both LN and WoodRiver planes. They are excellent planes for those people who can't afford $400 for LN.
Look at the planers and some other machines. Grizzly, Jet, PM some models come out of same foundry in Taiwan. That doesn't prevent me from buying a less expensive model.
L-N took a design that no one was making, or was interested in making. They spent a lot to improve the design and develop it for production. They made molds for casting. It looks like a direct copy of a Bedrock, but it is not. Nothing is interchangeable.
Wood River did nothing. They used a Lie Nielsen plane as the mold. Sorry, but that's stealing. I someone came around in a van, selling things they had stolen from your neighbors, would you buy it because it was cheap?
Yeah. I actually think YOU would.
Why did Lee Valley develop and manufacture their own designs? By your logic, they could have done the same thing as Wood River, and ripped off Lie Nielsen. Why didn't they? Because they are a decent, ethical company, that's why.
I find it shocking when people take delight in their own lack of ethics and decency. I don't know why I'm still shocked, but I am.
Lie-Nielsen planes are surely copies of the Stanley plane designs. LN didn't make new designs but rather made the old designs to better, more exacting standards; and from improved materials. Indeed, part of the appeal of LN planes is that they DIDN'T try to improve the design (as Veritas did) but instead brought well-proven designs back into production using those high quality materials and exacting manufacturing standards. The reason LN planes sell so well is that they made an already extant design available again; and in a form that produced excellent functionality as good or better than the same designs of old.
What evidence is there that Quangsheng are copying LN manufacturing techniques and materials that are somehow unique to LN? Surely it's the case that Quangsheng manufacturing standards and materials were - and probably still are - inferior to those of LN. As a result, LN continues to successfully sell its planes for more than Quangsheng does.
Were LN to be awarded the sole right to manufacture those designs originated by Stanley, they would in effect be given a perpetual monopoly. No woodworker anywhere in the world could own a high functioning plane of those designs unless they could afford an LN.
In reality, Quangsheng produce planes that are a good design - not one originated by LN - that don't match the quality of LN planes of the same design. But they are, in some cases, improving their quality to a state in which their version of those plane designs are at least functional (unlike the very poor modern Stanleys and Records of the late C20th) and can have that function improved by the buyer. That enables thousands of woodworkers to enjoy the same opportunity to own and use a good tool as those who can afford LNs.
What does LN itself feel about the competition from Quangsheng and other similar manufacturers of items like theirs but not of their high quality? Does LN see that as unfair competition; or any competition at all? I suspect that LN will in fact benefit, via the marketing phenomenon that sees a greater variety of similar goods at varying prices and qualities increase the overall market for such things because they become a familiar norm .... and everyone's sales increase.
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There's often a confusion of feelings of national loyalty and property fetishism in these discussions. Sometimes this confusion is deliberately stoked by would-be monopolists. Personally I feel that the interests of customers as well as manufacturers need to be factored in. I think we should also be wary of portraying something as a win-lose competition that is actually a win-win situation.
Lataxe
Look, when wood River planes first cam on the market, they had the same exact casting marks and mold peculiarities that the current crop of Lie Nielsen planes did. Lie Nielsen severed ties with Woodcraft over the issue. Its not a matter of opinion, its what happened.
L-N planes are not just new copies of Bedrocks. There were substantial differences.
Folks can rationalize piracy all they want. But countless people have had their work ripped off by foreign factories. Companies like L-N, Titemark, etc deserve better from us.
John_C2 - I'd be interested in any on-line information from those events you could point to, particularly any photographic evidence of the "exact casting marks" and any statements by Lie-Nielsen about the matter.
Are there "substantial differences" between old bedrock designs and the LN versions that warranted a patent, copyright or any other legally-established intellectual property rights now harboured in the US or any other patent office or similar?
Subsequent to these alleged copying events, has there been any information made available by Lie-Nielsen concerning any projected losses they have suffered as a result?
Thanks for any pointers you can indicate.
Lataxe
I never buy cheap tools. I learned the hard way that it does not save you money. A cheap tool is a pain to use, a quality tool is a pleasure to use. You might wonder how something as simple as a hand plane could be screwed up, but you would be surprised. The first time I used a high-quality plane after a couple of years with some cheap planes was a revelation.
If you acquire a cheap tool, one of two things are going to happen. You're going to get tired of fighting with it and give up the pastime or you'll replace it. Either way you lose. Invest in quality tools that you'll never have to replace.
By quality, I don't necessarily mean expensive. That is usually the case, but you can sometimes find superb antiques at great prices.
@Lat_Axe Ireland is not a member of the UK…
As you were.
I'm an Irishman living in Ireland. Tools are available from neighbouring England, (Sheffield in particular), with no import duties whilst the UK still remains in the EU… I buy American hand planes, namely Lie-Nielsen, with a premium price, shipping costs and import duties. I have done since the 90's (pre-World Wide web) and will continue to do so.
I can't tell you what to do or how to feel about it. But I can tell you that I will never compromise on buying tools for the job. Good luck with your decision.
Patrick
I wus meaning that bit at the top of The Emerald Isle. Mind, Bokum seems intent on doing away with the United Kingdom, despite the title of his queer party. Perhaps Ireland will at last get all of itself back? Meanwhile, I will then become Welsh.
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Is it less expensive to buy an LN from the US with all the import duties and other costs added on, than it is from the UK or a-one o' them Cherman shops? Many on-line UK tool shops sell LN, as you know. It would be interesting to know the price comparisons - UK/EU-bought vs US bought - for EU members.
As to not compromising on tools for the job .... you need to import some of these instead of them cheap LNs:
http://www.marcouplanes.com/index.php
or even:
https://www.holteyplanes.com/
I imagine the latter must be gold-plated, which makes them glide more smoothly. :-)
Lataxe
I have some Kobalt planes and LN panes, a few 100+ year old Sargents (with Hock blades) and truth be told, the Kobalt planes are a pain in the rear. The blades wallow in the body and are not a good fit. I could mess with them (some more) and fuss to get them to work, and have done so, but I use them rarely (I have two). I prefer the LN and Sargent planes every single time.
That said, Kobalt planes are made in China or Germany, from what I've bee able to research. Full disclosure, I dislike most Chinese-made tools. I avoid them for many reasons. But I also have many tools made in China or Taiwan, mostly I think power tools. But I do a lot of research on these before I buy them, regardless of where they're made. I think the Taiwanese tools are better overall quality; they learned the lesson earlier on.
I have one TayTools router plane and it's OK, but I wouldn't write home about it.
Just stumbled onto this thread, and the old cliche of "the more things change the more they stay the same" comes to mind.
I don't pretend to be an authority on the history of hand planes but there is nothing new here at all. Everyone has been copying and stealing from each other and the basic Bailey design for over 100 years, including other trusted names like Record (and yes there were various deals, settlements, and rights acquisitions between Bailey, Sargent, and Stanley in the early days, so you can't call it all "stealing"). Veritas is the only exception I can think of that has gained any success with a truly unique design.
Last year, I almost took the plunge on a couple Woodriver planes (I think I even had them in my shopping cart), but I decided to wait and see if they would go on sale. Instead, the prices have gone up (I am guessing due to the trade tariffs), and I no longer consider them to be a good value.
The Taytools planes look interesting. I am willing to bet that with a bit of fettling, they could work nicely. My most used plane is a Stanley type 20 No 4 that I picked up on the cheap some time back (the type 20 is often considered to be the beginning of the end of Stanley planes). It took quite a bit of work to get it tuned, but I am satisfied with the results and it is now a very usable tool (it does have its annoyances, like a rattly lateral adjuster, but they do not impact its usability). My guess is that the Taytools planes are probably of similar quality to this later model Stanley and would require a similar effort to properly tune (and would have similar annoyances).
But while I enjoy restoring old antique planes, the whole point of buying a newly manufactured plane would be to spend more time using it than tuning it. I also suspect that the irons will be of lower quality steel and will not hold and edge very well. I will pass on the Taytools planes and instead, my next plane purchase will probably be a Veritas (now really only a small increase in price over the Woodriver). I just need to get past the look of them.
I also know that someday I am likely to take the plunge on a L.N. But that will be purely a "luxury" purchase. I know I don't "need" to spend that much money to get a tool that will do the job.
Great discussion but missing a great option.Go buy a stanley Bedrock,a Hock blade and look up an article on tuning up a plane.Actually,first look up an article on what to look for in a used plane.Then tune the plane and go to work with one of the best planes ever made at half the LN price.You could come to my shop and try a LN ,Veritas and Bedrock Stanley and I dare you to tell the difference.Incidentally,plane with the grain!!!
I have the 4.5 and it's a great plane for the price. It came flat and only required work on the chip breaker to perform pretty well. The 7 required a bit of work on the sole because there was a big bump after the mouth. It also needed some chip breaker work, but now also runs fine.
I'd say go for it to round out the planes that you could use every now and then but can't justify $$$$. For example I just used my 5.5 for everything, but it's nice to have a separate 4.5 set up with a back bevel for trouble wood and a 7 to mill long boards a bit quicker (less checking with a straight edge).
Side note: I'm like 99% sure these are made in India. Also, these are Bailey planes and not bedrock. I measured the iron and breaker and they are both around 0.115".
I agree that a reconditioned older Stanley is a great option. The only problem with buying any old Stanley planes these days (including Bedrocks), is that the prices have shot way up. If you have a good local source for estate sales or other local markets, you might be able to find a good deal still, but good deals on eBay are now few and far between. A No 4 in nice condition will usually sell for over $100 (and I have seen some go even higher). Still about half the price of a new Veritas, but by the time you drop in that Hock blade, you will be closing the gap to the point that the new Veritas no longer looks so expensive.
If you are going to go with a coast effective plane go with the brand that started it all, Stanley tools. Stanley has over 150 years of experience in making these planes. Though their planes in the last 20 years have been made in China, Stanley continues to make a good quality plane for the most part. Stanley is actually an American founded company and the head quarters is still located in America. In the last few months Syanley has shut down their China manufacturing factory and are in the process of moving their factory back to the states. With this said if you do buy a Stanley plane I recommend sticking with their original design and not going with the newest modle of the sweetheart plane design. The adjustment wheel to advance the blade was moved and put on the top of the adjustment angle lever. This new design is a nightmare! 😫 The design makes it difficult to advance the blade forward without having to stop each time to do so. Besides stopping to advance the blade each time, you also have to readjust the blades angle because advancing the blade ends up moving the angle lever and throwing off the blades angle. Stanley still makes the original design so there is no need to hunt down an antique in need of restoration; unless you like that sort of stuff. 😉 Other than Stanley I recommend sticking with the higher end planes like Veritas and Lie Nielsen. They come almost completely ready
to use out of the box and they work great. I say this from experience, AVOID AT ALL COST buying the cheap replica China junk! It is not worth your time, money, and the headache in trying to fix them to where they will work properly. I have been there, done it, and regretted it ever since. If you wish to know the story of my experience with a cheap China plane then keep reading, if not you can stop here.
Story:
It was my first bench plane. I was intrigued by what I saw a friend do with them and happened to see one in the hardware store. It was a Great Neck no. 4 plane (basically a Stanley no. 4 knock off). I was so excited to find the plane I bought it right away for $42.99. HUGE mistake! When I got home I went to work researching and watching YouTube videos on how to set up a bench plane. 1st issue I ran into was when I was taking the blade off the plane to be shapened, the blade and chip breaker was stuck. No matter how hard I tried I could not get the blade to come off. I eventually took a screwdriver and pry the blade and chip breaker off the plane (I bent the screwdriver in the process). Come to find out the chip breakers screw was way to big and was jammed into the frog. I filed the edge around the screw down so it would fit with out getting stuck in the frog. After sharpening the blade and flattening the planes sole, I went to set the blade back in the plane and the blade would not stay (when sharpening and flattening I forgot to check to see if everything was square). I eventually figured out the lever for the adjustment screw and angle lever was too short to completely reach the hole in the chip breaker. I discovered the chip breaker was also slightly bent where it needed to be straightened, it was also out of square and curved away from the adjustment lever. I put the chip breaker in the vise and pulled the slight curve out of it. I used a filed on the chip breaker to file it square. It took 2 days for me to get the chip breaker to lay completely flat on the blade again. Once I was done I reassemble the plane and tested it. I could barely get the blade to advance, I notice the angle adjustment lever was very sloppy in movement, the tote and knob of the plane rocked back and forth with the movement when plane was being used. I removed the lever cap first to see why I was not getting much of a blade, even with adjustment wheel turned as far as it would go. I discovered the chip breaker was too short for the plane and kept the blade from entirely reaching the opening. I pulled the chip breaker back about 1/4" from the blades edge. I then tighten the screws for the tote and knob and reassembled the plane. I tested it again, it was better but not great. The tote and knob still wiggled even though the screws were as tight as can be. I took the screws for the tote and knob over to the bench grinder and ground a 1/16" off of both screws, reattached and tested the tote and knob. I repeated this until the fit was tighter. I then added an extra washer to both the tote and knob. Convinced the wobble would not
entirely go away I then moved on to the sloppy angle adjustment lever. I took the frog off the plane, removed the angle adjustment lever from the frog and examined it to see if I could figure out what was wrong with it. I flattening the rivet around the washer a little more, then reattached the angle lever to the frog with another rivet making sure it is tight enough to where the angle lever would not flop around but could move like it was supposed to. As I reassembled the plane I noticed the blade and cap iron did not sit straight in the plane, even though the angle adjustment lever was straight in the middle. I got to looking at the lever the cap iron sat on and noticed the top was askewed. I took a file and filed the top flat, placed the blade and cap iron back in the plane and saw it sat straight in the plane. I finished assembling the plane and tested it. It was about 70% better. Frustrated and not sure as to what else I could do to better the plane I resulted to ebay and bought an old, used, but still in good condition Stanley no. 4 frog, tote, knob, tote and knob screws, cap iron and cap iron screw. Once I got the parts in the mail, I gutted the Great Neck plane and tossed the frog, tote, knob, tote and knob screws, cap iron and cap iron screw into the spare parts bin. I then replaced them with the Stanley parts and wala the Great Neck plane was 100% better and worked like a dream. But now it is more like a Stanley, Great Neck hybrid. The only parts I used out of the original Great Neck plane was the sole, blade and lever cap. The plane altogether ended up costing me $90. I could have bought a brand new Stanley no. 4 plane for what this China junk cost me in the end. Oh well, it was a learning experience 🤷🏽♀️ and one I will never forget. 🤦🏽♀️
I hope my bad experience will help you in your decision making. Good Luck!
Just sold a #7 bedrock for 175 on EBAY one year ago
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