Hi,
I’ve been looking at the Woodrat system as an alternative to buying a router table. This looks like it would do everything the router table can do, plus jigs for many types of joinery.
Anyway, in their brochure, they recommend using HSS bits instead of tungsten carbide tipped bits. They say the HSS is better when going through and across the grain, making joints in the ends of planks and rails. They say the tungsten tends to chip, so they cutters are made with a straighter cutting angle or rake.
They also say that TCT bits have tips welded onto the structural shaft of the bit, so the welded-on tips tend to make the cutter stout and affects the appearance of cuts.
I’ve been told by other people the bits should be the same – both are steel, but the TCT have the carbide edges that hold an edge better.
Anyway, I’m very new to woodworking and router bits, and would like to hear what the “experts” have to say.
Thank you for your time!
–Kent
Replies
From what I have been taught, high speed steel holds a sharper edge than carbide. Carbide on the other hand holds the edge longer. So it really is a matter of preference and work which type of bit you might choose.
Personally, I use carbide exclusively. Furthermore, on any of my straight bits, I go to a machine tool supply house and get end mills intended for metal service. They come in a wider variety than "woodworking" bits and cost a whole bunch cheaper. Especially if you have ever tried to purchase say a 2 flute, straight, reverse spiral at a woodworkers shop. Those that I get at the machine tool supply house I get full carbide. I could also get HSS and they would be cheaper. Big asterisk with full carbide cutters.... they are pretty hard to get in reduced shank. So when I get a 3/8", 4 flute, spiral cutter in carbide, the shank is also 3/8". Likewise for all the straight carbide. So you see, if you have a pc router, you are limited to 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 bits in full carbide.
As a final note, I have never used my cutters and thought afterwards that the cut should have been cleaner or more smooth. Meaning, I'm not sure I would be able to tell the difference on an average day. Maybe under special circumstances. But maybe not.
Rob Kress
When you get back to your machinest supply look into a collet set. I bought a set to fit my Bosch 1600 series. No limits any more.
Also I use Wholesale Tool.
Thanks for the tip imerc. Of course I could use collets. Never even occurred to me and I was a machinist in a previous life. Go figure....
Rob Kress
hey Rob you've gone way over Kentiler's head,some machinist bits can be used on wood but those kinds of tools require thorough knowledge.
HSS is just about worthless compared to carbide; stuff burns up in a hurry.
When buying carbide, be careful of bargains. Web sites that are selling unusually cheap are usually very poor quality and may be unbalanced causing breakage or damage to your router. If you don't damage it (drop, chip, etc) a carbide bit can be sharpened and last for decades. Ive got some that are over 20 years old, including some bought at Sears. Costs about $5 per sharpening. Good bits have thicker carbide, while the best use C4 over C2.
I own a sharpening business and from my point of view carbide is the only way to go. I can get a sharper edge on HSS but it will not last very long. Carbide will probably be about 95% as sharp, but will hold the edge at least ten times longer, and probably more.
One of the main reasons bits burn is because they are dull and dirty. Sounds simple and logical but you would not believe the complaints we hear about dull bits. I point out the gummed up condition they are in and ask people if they would allow their kitchen knives to be put away after use without cleaning. Of course not, or at least that is the answer we should expect. Why treat expensive tools poorly? Most people will shorten the life of the carbide or steel bit by continuing to use it when it should be put aside, cleaned, and sharpened. On a side note saw blades are even treated more poorly, and add to this the fact that even when they are sharp we hear that the wood is being burnt. Almost invariably that is because the fence is toed in rather than perfectly straight or slightly toed out.
Having said all this I would also point out that HSS has its place. Chisels, hunting and kitchen knives, and turning tools can be sharpened beyond razor sharp, but they are not turning at high speeds and they do not get the abuse of router bits and saw blades.
I am picky, picky, picky when it comes to resharping. I prefer a minimim of 1k grit diamond on blades and 2500 on bits. What is the norm for resharping? I have had some garbage work done. Then again an outfit in FL. did such a great job that you would cut yourself handling their resharps.
It's getting to be that I'm having a difficut time getting it my way. If it keeps up I will get into resharp on my own.
Would you care to elaborate on any of this?
PS. Any reason is good enough to get another tool.
OK. I'll go for the carbine bits. I don't have any bits yet, and would like to get a good set for some nice decorative edges and also dove tails (a variety of sizes).
I plan on getting the woodrat in the future, and would like some very small dovetail bits to use on that, along with normal sized - for dresser drawers. Also some bits for raised panels, too.
Any suggestions would be appreciated! I have a 1/2", 2 HP Dewalt Plunge Router.
Thanks.
--Kent
Carbine.. Thats one way to subdue unrulley stock....
Jesada tools and Leevalley..
http://www.leevalley.com/home/main.asp
http://www.jesada.com/
Edit for links
Edited 8/5/2003 9:10:25 AM ET by IMERC
Edited 8/5/2003 9:12:38 AM ET by IMERC
Edited 8/5/2003 9:14:57 AM ET by IMERC
OK. Been spending too much time in the firearms department.
I looked at the two sites you recommended, and was wondering how MLCS bits compare. Here's a set that seems like a good price - however, if the bits are bad, then anything is too much to pay!
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/set66.html
I'll be doing dovetails in a variety of sizes, decorative edges, raised panels (planning on using straight bit with wood at a slant), etc.
I just bought a router, and don't have a single bit, so I know you can save a bunch by getting a large set over buying single bits at a time.
Thanks.
--Kent
Was that you in message #10?
MCLS bits have too much runout for me. Some times bad enough to chatter.
The bits I use are listed in prefered order.
Bosch M series. (pant pant)
Jesada, Amana (tied)
CMT,
Leevalley, Freud (tied)
And in the wing cutters department.
Freeborn.
Freud.
Tried many other others and always seem to go right back to these. I have multiple hundreds of bits and cutters. I don't bother with MCLS, Porter Cable or Woodworkers Supply any more. The bits I use Have been very good to me.
Let me suggest Leevalley to start. Tell them I sent you. When you call their 800 # you will be amazed. Talk to them. They are good.
To Place an Order
Customer Service
From USA:
1-800-871-8158
1-800-267-8735
From Canada:
1-800-267-8767
1-800-267-8761
Edited 8/5/2003 11:04:04 PM ET by IMERC
Yep. Thought I'd type more than just thx :-)
What are your thoughts with Whiteside? They scored highest back in '99 with this comparison:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00045.asp
Thx again!
--Kent
I remember that test.
Jesada redesigned their bit after that test. Went out and tried to find every customer that had bought the bit and replaced it. Even put out a message to contact them. You got a new replacement even if you were satisfied with what you had. They did this on their own. Even picked up the postage. LeeValley acts the same way.
White side are so so bits to me. Disposable. Every thing I have I resharp and polish. All of my bits have a sizeable chuncks of carbide on them.
What ever it is I buy I look into the manufacturer and vendor as hard or harder than the item I want. Hence I don't do oriental. Their history, buisness practices and behavior disqualifies them. I want a good prouduct from reputable company with ethics and that believe in the customer and their product.
I got a large box of others sitting on the shelf. I have a list of prefered companies.
We can get into machinist bits if you like too.
If you want steel look for M2 or better. HSS is a waste of money.
carbides rule,they last much,much longer than HSS,if your new with these tools you will be ruining your bits before prematurely (due to lack of experience),trial and error should be expected ,so buy yourself those inexpensive Taiwan made sets,and learn,and enjoy.
Kentiler.
"welded-on tips tend to make the cutter stout and affects the appearance of cuts." (from your original post)
I think this is correct, to the best of my knowledge carbide tipped bits are 'chunkier' were HSS or the stuff IMERC was suggesting would be finer. Giving the dovetails a more hand cut look.
This would be the only reason I'd consider looking at something other than carbide.
But then that doesn't matter if your going to shoot it with a machine gun. LOL
Ben
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