Another current thread all about hand-chopping mortises is proving to be quite instructive, to me as well as the original poster. I am hoping another similar thread about DTs will provide a similarly enlightening conversation….
I’ve now cut around 60 DTs by hand, evolving my technique with each session. A titemark is used to score the depth lines and a marking knife with an LN guide to mark the tails. I cut tails first then mark the pins from them using a very thin pencil rather than a knife.
I use a very nice Wenzloff DT (western) saw, which tracks its very thin cut so well that I now rarely need to pare tail or pin sides – unless I mess up through not concentrating (Radio 3 is often fascinating, you know).
The other techniques I started with have been amended:
I now saw out the waste with a coping saw rather than chiselling it out, as it seems a lot faster and requires only a little paring with a sharp skew chisel to get down to the scribe line.
I use a LN No 140 block plane to take off a 0.25mm ledge from the inside faces, up to the scribe lines (Jeff Heath dropped a hint about this in the LN No 140 thread). This seems to help the coping saw cut out 99%of the waste accurately; gives a great join in the inside corners and leaves the tails/pins sticking out 0.25mm ready to be planed flush. If clamping is needed, a softwood caul will work without being “dentiled” first, as it just squashes down that 0.25mm where it meets a tail or pin end.
Most articles (in FWW and elsewhere) seem to advise chopping out the waste with a chisel. None of them mention the trick with the plane (I think Jeff said it was a Cosman technique). Is the coping saw method a lesser method for some reason I have not understood yet? It seems so much faster. Does the planing trick have any undesirable consequences I have not yet come across?
Your experience and opinions would be very welcome.
Lataxe
Replies
Hi Master Lataxe,
I also cope them out. I like bashing the waste out of mortises, but don't like doing the same on DTs.
I sometimes create the slight rebate, sometimes not. It does leave a crisp join on the inside. It is a technique I also use on the Rat often.
My main trials involve half-blinds having a gap-free fit. Just don't do them that often. Need to take a bit of time and practice a few. Hmm. Maybe this weekend.
Take care, Mike
Like so many other things in woodworking, there always seems to be yet another way to skin a cat.
Tails first or pins first? I prefer to do the pins first for a couple of reasons. First, it makes lining up the tail board to the pin board
easier for marking. With the Tail First Method you've got the "half pin sockets" on each end so you can't use just your finger tips to tell when edges are lined up. Second, if you go with small/narrow pins and cut the tails first, there's not much room for a marking knife to scribe the location of the pins.
As for coping out most of the sockets waste,
I use a japanese dovetail saw - with a kerf much smaller than that of the coping saw. That means I can't saw down the dovetail saw cut lines to get near the bottom of the socket without either damaging the face I so carefully cut with the fine toothed dovetail saw OR coping saw a new cut down to near the bottom of the socket. Yes - I have used a jeweler's saw with a kerf as fine or finer than the dovetail saw - but it takes FOREVER.
You can also use a bandsaw to cut the pins AND hog out much of the waste
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/BandsawPinsTrick.html
I use The Frank Klausz method, with a little Tage Frid thrown in. This one works pretty well - IF you're using SHARP chisels
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DovetailDrawer/DovetailDrawer0.html
charlie b
Hi Charlie,
You probably know this, but for others who use a fine kerf saw such as yours--and it doesn't have to be a Japanese saw, either. I made myself a saw using .016" plate for thin drawer sides and the kerf "suffers" the same fate re using a coping saw.
As I almost never go for single kerf-width between the tails, I just use the coping saw down from the center or so between the kerfs towards the bottom and turn it into one corner. Flip the saw and cut along just above the baseline.
Take care, Mike
Charlie,
A belated thank you for the post and the references. I will be exploring with my little notebook at the ready.
May I ask you about your experiences with a Japanese saw in hardwood? Many, (including David Charlesworth, Derek Cohen and other experienced chaps) have said that the vast majority of Japanese saws are meant for softwood only; that impulse-hardened, fine teeth esily snap off in hardwood.....?
Lataxe
Re: japanese saws and hardwoodsThe standard japanese dozuki works fine with hardwoods - just takes a little longer than with a LN dovetail push saw. But starting the cut with the dozuki seems to give more control than with the LN. Control at the start of the cut is kind of critical so accuracy is more important than speed - at least to me.I've got a dozuki made specifically for cutting dovetails - more and finer teeth. Very slow in hardwoods, great in soft woods.When cutting the shoulders of the tails on either end of the tails part - japanese pull saws shine. Because the straight, oval cross section handle allows for a lot of gripping positions it's easy to use - and control - cutting either vertically or horizontally. Of course, with a push saw, you can turn the stock to be cut the shoulders in the vertical sawing postion required by the push saw.BTW - the dovetail instructions pages are each a GIF file you can download and print at your leisure. Take 'em to the shop, do what you see on each page and you should end up with dovetail joints that hold together without glue. Getting things crisp and clean is a matter of practice. Note: It's the tight corners in the sockets that are often the cause of DTs that don't go together easily. Exacto knife will get you into tight spots that a bevel edged chisel won't get into.
Lataxe
I have the dozuki "Z" saw, available from either Woodcraft or Rockler (don't know what your sources are in the UK), and it performs well in hardwood. I've just finished cutting a set of tenons in white oak, and use the saw to cut the haunch tenon. It performed very well. Lonnie Bird recommended it for cutting dovetails, so it must do very well in hardwoods. I do have a cheapy Japanese combo saw, and I think it breaks teeth just hangin up in the garage. For what it's worth...Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Lataxe, Japanese saws work fine in hardwoods, IME. I've found that it just requires a somewhat lighter touch -- less downward pressure and a bit slower stroke speed -- than used in sawing softer woods (I use a fairly light downward pressure and a moderately slow stroke to start with, so it is merely a matter of lessening it just a touch... The wood and the saw will tell you whether they like what you're doing...). Other than that, it doesn't seem to make any difference how hard the wood is.Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Tom & James,
Thanks for the advice on the J saws - I would like to have a try with one so your advice is reassuring. On the other hand, I really enjoy the pecision of Mr Wenzloff's creations so the J saw may just be an experiment. A reasonable J saw doesn't seem too expensive. (Mike's saws cannot be called cheap, in any way, shape or form). :-)
May I ask another questionette?
At present I need only pare the bottom of my DTs and am using Two Cherries skew chisels. The 12mm width of the smallest just fit in my smallest DTs, at present.
If I make some of those sawkerf-width pin-end DTs, in hardwood with a 1:7 or 1:6 slope, how narrow a paring chisel will I need to fit in the tail bottoms? The narrowest skew paring chisel I can find is 9.6mm (3/8ins). Is this narrowenough or will I have to use a straight-edge paring chisel of less width? (I find the skew chisel easier to control than the those with the 90 degree edges, although it's not an issue as such).
Lataxe
Lataxe, > Well...you sparked my curiosity here...so I went to the shop and tried this out. Using a LN dovetail saw to cut the kerf, and using Veritas' 1:6 and 1:8 dovetail markers, here are the results (left hand column is the depth of the dovetail, the other numbers are the width at that depth, by ratio): Ratio:...............1:6...............1:8 Depth
1/2".................3/16"...........1/8" 3/4".................1/4".............3/16" 1"....................5/16"...........1/4" Hope this helps you some.These may be of some use:http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12800
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12782
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12783Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!Tschüß!Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!JamesEdited 1/14/2007 4:51 pm by pzgren
Edited 1/14/2007 4:52 pm by pzgren
James,
You area friend indeed. Thank you for the data and for taking account of my failure to mention the DT depths.
Your data suggests that I must forego the skew chisels in making these superfine DTs, unless I go daft at the Japan WW of course. :-) I will make do with the 90 degree paring chisels for now (I have a Hirch 1/8in and a Marples 1/4in) although I hear a Spruce Goose honking on the wind somewhere.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Lee Valley sells a set of miniature chisels (dental instruments) that includes 3 straight chisels (2, 3 and 4 mm), left- and right-handed 3 mm skew chisels, and two fantail chisels (4 and 6mm). The set of 7 chisels runs $13.50.
Best wishes
George
Lataxe:
<<Your data suggests that I must forego the skew chisels in making these superfine DTs,...>>
Here are a couple of possibilities that might solve your need for a smaller-width skew chisel:
Some of these might do the trick: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=1361
Or: you might consider acquiring another copy of your narrowest skew chisel and modifying it: i.e., grinding it from one side to make it sufficiently narrow to fit the interior of the smallest dovetails that you intend to make.
Just a couple of ideas that you may find of use....Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
If I'm doing DTs in softwood, I find it's often quicker to just chisel out the waste -- it only takes 2 or three pops per side, plus a final cut to the line. (See the Klaus video.) If it's hardwood, I'll use the coping saw to within about 1/16" of the line and pare the waste with a whack from each side, undercutting just a bit. I just do whatever is quicker under the circumstances.
Nice tip about skimming the inside faces with a block plane. I'm gonna give it a go. Does the #140 have a nicker? If not, I'd probably opt for using a rabbet plane to avoid tearout, or maybe pre-scribe with a knife.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
The LN 140 does indeed have a nicker; and a movable fence, which makes the creation of the shallow rabbet up to the scribe mark very easy. I have to say that the LN 140 is a very versatile little beast. I've already fallen in love with it and have to stop myself kissing it goodnight (it would give one a chapped lip, to say the least).
It's a relief to hear that the coping saw is commonly used. I find that, with that 140-created rabbet to guide it, the coping saw can be made to cut virtually along the scribe line, with only the corner left by the coping saw "turn" at the bottom corner and a few bottom-whiskers needing removal with the skew chisel.
I have got Mr Klaus' video but somehow I end up taking multiple chops or catching the side walls of the tails or pins with the chisel corners. I suppose I need to practice more. Perhaps a few pins-first DTs is worth a go.
My intial handcut DTs were all made in pine, used to make drawers for the new workbench. As the WB is a tool and not furniture, I didn't worry about the drawer DTs being a bit rough. This allowed a certain confidence in cutting those first DTs, which in turn seemed to allow a swift zero-in to a good standard.
If I'd begun with a fine desk or similar, I would have been nervous and probably would have taken forever to get confident. This all goes to emphasise the message often seen in FWW from various of their luminaries - practice first on something that doesn't matter. I have been pleasantly surprised at how swift has been my progress to a decent standard.
Lataxe
good post! i'm gonna like this one. i've been cutting and experimenting with hand cut dovetails for several weeks now. i still don't have a favorite way, although several methods have worked well for me.
one way that i like is to use the leigh jig to make "needle pins" (leigh has a bulletin out that describes the process in detail) then i hand cut the matching tail boards. i do cope out the waste first, then chisel. i've also had success with cutting the tails on my dewalt scroll saw, then cutting the pins by hand. thus far my joints cut totally by hand are less than what i'd like them to be.
lataxe, i'm wondering if you can post a pic about the planing the inside surfaces. oh, i just looked back at the post, maybe i can find the thread you allude to.
anyway i'm improving on most of my varied attempts. the scroll saw is also handy in place of the coping saw for removing waste. i know scrolling is limited here, still a few of you may use one.
greg
Greg,
I was hoping to do some DTs that would allow a pic or two of the LN 140-made ledges. However, I have been distracted by some haunched tenons and the ladywife's current madness with her newly-acquired American juicer and Italian icecream making machines. (She has indulged at the post Christmas sales and I am her guinea pig).
Unless Jeff can point us at a pic on the web, I will try to make some in a day or three. Someone else might just be in the midst of making some.....anyone?
Lataxe
it's ok my good lad. hand tools are teaching me patience, somewhat. far be it for me to keep you from fresh juice and ice cream, not to mention haunched tenons. in the meantime i'm going to look up the ln 140 online to have a look at it. ice cream may be in my immediate future as well. my tummy thanks you, my jeans do not. i suspect, as with most ww applications, there may be other ways to make that indent. still i look forward to your pic.
thanks greg
I'll leave my opinions to one side, and just speak from meager experience.
As for the planing, I don't see the need for it, but perhaps I'm missing something. To make my pins and tails slightly proud, all that is required is setting my wheel gauge ever so slightly wide of the board thickness - as in making the bevel overlap the edge rather than the knife at the front of the bevel corresponding perfectly with the edge. I suppose the planing method might hide a messy job on the inside faces? It seems like inviting potential alignment problems if the planing was not done well - i.e., as flat and square as the jointed face.
As for waste removal, I use my tenon saws (or regular (as opposed to rip) dozuki) for end cuts very close to the line - very minor paring required. Coping saw versus chisel is a toss up. The saw can be difficult to get close enough to the line to make for quick paring as opposed to just less for the chopping chisel method to first remove. It also introduces the risk of a slight overshot making a blemish on the pin or tail side. The downside of chopping is the risk of getting a bit impatient in hogging it out or in poor order that results in deep breakouts in the middle portion of the endgrain. Now, this isn't an important face, but it always makes me feels that I have somehow failed in a test of woodworking patience. ;-) One important (though perhaps obvious) thing to mind in chopping is to NOT register the chisel on the scribed baseline, but slightly ahead of it, to allow the bevel some room to drive the back backwards toward the line. I personally like to chop out most - but leave a bit to pare carefully to the scribed line. Oh and I undercut these parts ever so slightly to a v shape on this end grain portion - i.e., the scribed edges are the high points by as little an amount as I can muster and time, patience, and skill will allow.
In the end, it is of course, best to do what ever works for you and you are satisfied and comfortable with.
Samson
The wee tip for planing the inside face is not for the purpose of getting the pins to protrude proud. It's for the purpose of alignment for marking either the tail board or pin board, whichever you cut last. The rebate gives a slight ledge to register the board to for alignment.
By having that slight ledge, you have something to register the tail (2nd for me) board against the already cut pin board(1st for me), and it really helps eliminate the 2nd board wandering off the mark as you are marking with a knife or pencil.
Rob Cosman passed this tip on during a demo at Montanafest as a procedure he always follows, and I have adopted it as a part of the way I work. It has helped me quite a bit, and I simply passed the tip on to Lataxe (with proper footnoting to Rob) about a month ago.
If you've got a sure fire way of keeping those 2 boards from moving while marking, than this procedure is certainly unnecessary.
Jeff
Edited 1/12/2007 6:03 pm ET by JeffHeath
"The wee tip for planing the inside face is not for the purpose of getting the pins to protrude proud. It's for the purpose of alignment for marking either the tail board or pin board, whichever you cut last. The rebate gives a slight ledge to register the board to for alignment."
Okay, I misunderstood. Instead of marking, I took from Lataxe that the purposes included: "help the coping saw cut out 99%of the waste accurately; gives a great join in the inside corners and leaves the tails/pins sticking out 0.25mm ready to be planed flush."
"If you've got a sure fire way of keeping those 2 boards from moving while marking, than this procedure is certainly unnecessary."
I dunno about "surefire," but by using my tailvise to secure the board to be marked and placing the reference board on top of a board of the same thickness, I've never felt "marking challenged" so to speak.
Samson & Jeff,
I was guessing as to why the use of the LN 140 might give some help with the dovetailing, as I've never seen the Cosman demo. Jeff is right that the tiny ledge does tend to align (and keep aligned) one board agin the other when marking tails to pins (or vice versa, I suppose).
As it turned out, the ledges also help in hiding any tiny gaps on the inside corners; and automatically provides the slight sticking-out of the tail/pin ends whilst allowing the marking gauge to be set exactly to the thickness of the carcase parts being joined.
All small details, these; but they do seem to make a difference in helping one towards a good standard in DTs. I am for trying pins-first next, in an attempt to make a couple of drawers with those sawkerf-wide pin-ends. I can see the marking out for these will be a lot easier with pin-first.
I found another little tip concerning accuracy of DTs last night, in a Christian Becksvoort article (FWW issue 171). He cuts drawer-bottom slots first then uses an exact-fit key in the slots when putting the boards together to mark the pins from the tails (he is a pins-first lad).
This key ensures that the drawer bottom slot aligns all-round when the drawer is assembled. I will give that one a try, as one or two of my drawer bottom slots have, indeed, required a bit of post-construction widening at the corners :-)
One other tip of Mr B's worth mentioning is that he cuts tails in two boards at once, ganged together in the vise, which helps to keep the sawing at 90 degrees across the board ends, provides symmetrical pin/tail patterns and saves some time. I will be giving this one a try too (although it can't be done with pins-first, obviously). I have used that technique in cutting tails with the Woodrat.
Lataxe, a master only in the sense that he is not grownup enough to be a full Mister yet.
Hi Lataxe
Before you go cutting pins first, in an attempt to obtain skinny dovetails, I will suggest that you try two more "tricks".
I seem to recall that you mark your pins from the tails using a pencil. I may be wrong about this, but my thought was that your marking was not tight enough. What I find helpful is to use a marking knife with a blade that is the same as the saw kerf, that is, very skinny. You can buy knives like this from Blue Spruce (Dave Jeske) or Chester Toolworks (Dave Anderson). I make them myself, but not generally for sale. These knives cut a very fine line, one that some dislike since they are relatively difficult to see. It is helpful, therefore, to darken the line for light wood by rubbing a dirty finger or them, or lighten them for dark wood with a little chalk. When you cut close to such thin lines - aiming for a saw cut to saw cut fit - you maximize the likelihood of a close fit. If you need to pare a gossamer shaving with a chisel for the final fit, then this skinny knifed line will guide you there.
The second trick is to use a dovetail saw with minimal set. I have two saws that I particularly like using. One is an Independence Tools dovetail saw (forerunner of the LN Independence dovetail saw) that Mike Wenzloff re-filed for me, and the other is a vintage (and cheap!) John Cotterell dovetail saw that I filed (also 15 tpi) and gave just a smidgeon of set. I can get as clean a sidewall with these saws as I can with a dozuki. I much prefer the Western saws now ( .. I used to use Japanese saws exclusively until about 3 years ago) since I find that they are easier to saw to the line. This may be a personal thing, but I find that there is less tendency to twist a wrist when pushing. Anyway, the issue here is a predictable kerf - it doesn't even have to be thin (that just makes it less work) - you just need to be able to get the saw cut against the marked line. You may need to stone the set on your saw to achieve this. I recall reading or hearing Rob Cosman say that he stones the set of his LN dovetail saws - there is room for some fine tuning here. Perhaps Mike will say a little about this area.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Master / Mister <g> Lataxe has the saw thing figured out.
As in all things, practice with a saw that does or can cut straight removes some obstacle.
I would doubly encourage accurate marking like Derek says. Sawing to lines is all well and good, but if the lines are inaccurate it can be for nought.
I often, late at night, simply saw joints. Sometimes it is marking two ends of boards for half laps. Sometimes it is a single corner of box joints or dovetails. Other times perhaps a tenon. I simply like to relax in this way. I cannot but think it helps when I actually need to utilize what I am sawing. This involves marking first and it is here, the marking, that I find I may make the greatest mistake.
Take care, Mike
Derek,
Greetings from t'other side of the planet.
Pencil marking - I like the pencil lines because they are visible (an issue with knife lines sometimes, as you mention) but also the pencil line remains highly visible as you cut. The pencil line seems to serve as a better guide than a knife line because it allows a judgement to be made about how close to saw up to the line. With hard woods I have tried to saw right on the waste side of the line, which then disappears of course.
With relatively soft pine, I aim to miss the pencil line altogether as the pine will squish when the resulting tight joints are closed. With sapele and maple (the other timbers I have handcut so far) I cut right up to the pencil line. In both cases, the sawdust does not obscure the pencil line so easily and my old peepers can always see it. So far, I have avoided the need for any significant paring of the side walls; they fit first time - mostly.
However, I take you point about a narrow knife to do narrow pins via tail-first and will give it a try. I have been looking for an excuse to buy Blue Spruce stuff. :-) I have Sabatier marking knives (a left and right bevel) which are good but rather thick-bladed.
As to messing with sawkerf widths, sets and so forth - I thank you for the advice but hope that Mike Wenzloff has already dealt with those matters before he shipped me the saws. I think perhaps he has, since the DTs cut so far with the Wenztloff Beauties have turned out very well. Those saws track like a good bicycle going down hill with your hands off the bars.
***
One of the dreads I had in taking up handtools was the seemingly endless messing with tool-fettling - not something I want to do, I'm afraid. As it turns out, honing sharp edges on plane or chisel is not a problem, especially with the well-made marques. But I would hate to have to learn (let alone perform) the sharpening, setting, etc of what looks like ten zillion saw teeth! (I know, I am a wimp and will never be a real woodworker). :-)
Lataxe
PS I have been enjoying your Veritas router plane review, elsewhere, and am sorely tempted. You did this to me with them Marcou planes. Now its the Blue Spruce and Veritas toys. I believe the ladywife might be thinking of sending you some sort of liability-account to settle with her purse.
One of the dreads I had in taking up handtools was the seemingly endless messing with tool-fettling - not something I want to do, I'm afraid.
You must have some magic power tools, Master L, as most of mine require a good deal of care from table saw to jointer and from bandsaw to planer etc. Alignment, blade changing, avoiding snipe, avoiding drift, and on and on. Tune ups are part of the deal with nearly every tool.
Samson,
My power tools are fine indeed. A lot of them are German of course. :-)
With things like sanders, biscuit joiners, drills and such (portables) I have never had to tune them. They work out of the box and require only a new pad or blade from time to time, along with a clean. One router has had new bushes. The biscuit joiner has had a new blade after I stripped the teeth off the original blade on a screw.
The table saw, planer/thicknesser and bandsaw are all Scheppach. After setting them up upon their arrival, they stay set up. I have used the TS and PT extensively - daily with the TS and weekly (on average) with the PT. They have never needed adjustment. The bandsaw cuts whatever I ask of it with no issues at all (and no drift or other common ills of bandsaws). I have had the PT for 9 years and the TS & bandsaw 2 years.
A previous TS from Emco was just as good, although had lesser cutting capacities, which is the only reason I replaced it. A previous bandsaw from Elektra Bekum was a bit tempremental but settled down eventually with some better blade guides.
My Ryobi drum sander has also sanded thousands of feet of plank with no adjustment necessary after the intial setup and bedding in, 8 years ago. It has needed only a new gear wheel in the belt drive motor.
The lathe - same story; Woodrat - same story; giant Taiwanese belt sander - same story - they all continue to work properly and stay in adjustment after initial setup.
Drill press - needs to have its chuck reset in the taper now and then - but only after a bit of abuse with a small drum sander.
I test accuracy of these machines from time to time with decent instruments - dial gauge, straight edge, test cuts and so forth. I find the machine's settings just have not moved. They require a bit of lubrication, a clean and (for the PT) blade sharpening, no more.
I am a careful user, though. In general, all my stuff seems to wear better than similar stuff owned by other people. For example, I had the same bicycle for 15 years when I was a racing cyclist, whilst my contemporaries went through 3 or more. Mine is still fairly pristine, up in the loft now.
Being merely a WW hobbyist I don't stress the machines as would a commercial shop. Nevertheless, I am surprised at tales of machines that drift out of adjustment and need fettling on a frequent basis. Is it poor engineering or design? Abuse of the machine by the user? Or just the sheer volume of throughput?
Lataxe
Ah, Master L, as I suspected, you do indeed have magic - either in the power tools or your fingertips.
Nevertheless, I am surprised at tales of machines that drift out of adjustment and need fettling on a frequent basis. Is it poor engineering or design? Abuse of the machine by the user? Or just the sheer volume of throughput?
In my experience, moving parts and those sukect to impacts and vibration inevitably need attention. Here's my peraonl experience on my machines:
Table Saw - I have a Powermatic 64A contractor's saw. The fence is of course moved and impacted all the time, so after considerable use, it is worth checking that it is still parallel to the blade and adjusting as necessary. The blade itself, tilts though 45 degrees, and despite inital set up at the extremes, checking is required to ensure square cuts. The miter slots have stayed parallel to the blade, but I do check.
The Sliding Compound Miter Saw - I have a Makita 10". This is an excellent tool, but moving through angles in both axes means that despite detentes, occassional re- calibration for squareness in both directions is required.
The Band Saw - I have a Powermatic 14" with riser. Another excellent tool, but as with all bandsaws, with every blade change there is the fettling of blade tension roller guides, tracking, etc.
The jointer - I have a Powermatic 54A 6" jointer. Table height adjustments to perform different operations means re-adjusting to eliminate snipe in other operations - keeping the fence square requires attention - and if you want to enter the 9th circle of hell of fettling, change the blades on one of these sometime!
Planer - I have a Makita 12" lunch box machine. Great tool. Main fettling pain is upon blade changes. Sometimes adjustments to avoid snipe have been required.
I concur that the hand held power tools, rarely need any attention other than some grease or bushings perhaps.
I don't Think any of these things I've listed are unusual, or due to abuse or poor engineering. I think that these things are just part of the nature of these tools and the fact that blades dull and adjustments are required for different operations.
Some might consider the work needed to set up a router dovetail jig or bench-top mortiser a form of fettling almost as odious and distasteful as others find flattening a vintage plane's sole on some float glass. ;-)
I cut the tails with a table saw, and get .071" wide pins.
OK Master Lataxe
I didn't know you were a Master, but I shall honorably refer to you as such: Mike is always right, so he must be on this as well!! :)
I also remove most of the waste with a coping saw. On large panels, I even remove it on the band saw, removing V-shaped waste hunks on an angle close to the line.
I prefer pins first for the same reason as the fine lad before me stated. For looks, I prefer very pointy pins, and I cannot get a marking knife in those wee spots if I cut the tails first. I've done em' both ways, and pins first is just easier for me. Not a religious thing, though, like it is for some.
All that practicing will definately pay off in the long run. When I first learned, I cut a set every single night at the end of the day before I left the shop. After a couple of month's, you'll hide or burn those first sets. I'd need a wide angle lens to photo the gaps in my first set.
Another fine thread created by Master Lataxe
Jeff
Edited 1/12/2007 6:01 pm ET by JeffHeath
Another benefit of using the 140, which I think you allude to, is that it makes marking out the pins (from the tails) much easier. The shallow rabbet registers right up against the edge of the pin board, reducing the chances of leaving gaps, and ensuring a square joint. Otherwise, I always felt like I was guestimating the marking of the pins from the tails.
Another tip I like is the compass trick that Cosman demonstrates in his dovetail video. Sure makes layout a breeze.
Lataxe,
You method sounds exactly like a Rob Cosman demo! I've seen him here in Calgary a few times. I've seen both his dovetailing demo and a Mortise and Tennon demo.
He makes it look very easy, and more importantly really explains why and all the while trying to sell you Lie Nielsen tools. He's a very good salesman. He places quite a bit of importance on using the proper tool.
Buster
G'die Squire,
Definitely a thin draughtsmans propelling pencil (.5mm) is the way to go for all but the thinnest of doves- easy to see and if you mis-scribe easy to correct.
The finest quality Eclipse coping saw was one of the first tools I got whilst still languishing in the pram: I still have it in virginal condition as I never warmed to it, and it is kept for sentimental reasons only -next to the Eclipse Fret Saw. I prefer to use my bandsaw to remove waste and to saw the pins.Since the bases have been marked with a cutting gauge it is simple to stop short and the chisel registers here for a slightly in tilted chop-half way from both sides. I use metal cutting blades with minimal set and they are most suitable when they have been re-sharpened but not re-set-so they give a very smooth cut when sawing the pins-no need to pare. The Spear &Jackson dovetail saw only comes out of semi-retirement for the purpose of sawing the pins.I would bet that even a Coping Saw Afficionado such as you would lag far behind in a race against bandsaw...
Since the bandsaw is big and old it is the right height for sitting at, and runs most quietly.
Advice against chopping mit chisel?? What do they advise to chop with? Just now they will be advising to not saw with a saw....and your superb M.W. & SONS saws will be rusting. Having removed the bulk of waste with bandsaw it is simple to chop using the incised line to register on,and a piece of chimp board will be protecting your virginal bench top should you over-beetle.
To answer your question:I think the c/s is a lesser method, and not fast either, or enjoyable, and there is also the question of whether to push or pull....Philip Marcou
Edited 1/13/2007 4:14 pm by philip
Your Excellency,
Now why would I be using my admittedly lovely Scheppach bandsaw to cut them DTs when I am supposed to be larnin' handtool stuff? Naturally I have tried the bandsaw for DTs in the past and a fine job it does. However, it is not as fine as Mr Woodrat for getting rapid and purrfek DTs.
One day I may buy you one of these excellent superjigs, in exchange for a 50% discount on one of them planes you knock together - preferrably a 22 inch jointer. I believe you could build an upmarket "Woodrat Evolution," with enough extra engineerin' to confound the copyright.
I like the pencil too; but admit that my ex-office ones, although thin, have feeble leads. (A feeble lead is a terrible thing, in one's pencil). I understand there are tough draughtsman-quality ones of even lesser width (0.25mm). I am seeking one out; or even two.
You are too late with the over-beetling advice. I have sinned and the workbench top shows the damning evidence of over-enthusiastic chiselling. Still, it looks like a proper one now, with a scar or two upon it's formerly pristine surface. It also has glue splashes on the legs, which is annoying as I have been too lazy to slap oil on the underparts yet.
As to the coping-saw action, I have the blade the wrong way around as it cuts on the push stroke and therefore risks bending the blade. But I am a nice sawyer and treat the various toothed instruments as though they were delicate maidens that need protection from uncaring brutes. However, I now publicly confess that I dropped a Wenzloff saw on virtually the first day I got it and chipped a handle. Mike will never sell me another now (sob).
At least the camelia oil has kept rust at bay. Also, the saws now nestle in a lovely suede scabbard that is soaked in camelia. Please, pleeeze, Mike, let me buy more!
Lataxe, a practicing atavistic-throwback
Lataxe, Master and Squire
One extra mention regarding marking lines. Perhaps a combination of all things well and good. Adding to what Derek and Philip (and others, I'm sure) were stating, using a marking knife does produce a much finer line than any pencil. However, once marking with the knife, you now have two distinct sides of the cut left by the knife. Now, run your pencil lead through the knife mark, and you will find that you will now have 2 lines. One on each ridge left by the depression of the knife mark. All you have to do now is follow the ONE line on the side of the waste, and leave the line on the side of the pin (or tail).
I mark with a knife first, and then use the pencil for visual aid in this manner, and it allows the best of both tools. I can't see those pesky little knife marks anymore, either, without the aid of the a little pencil lead.
I'll snap some photo's this week of the 140 ledge if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Jeff
Dusty and Jeff,
More good advice; I am off to the Lee Valley catalogue this minute.
Jeff, you have given me the "evidence" I need to indulge in a Blue Spruce marking knife. (Are they called "Blue" because they are toolporn? I think so).
Lataxe
another option with regard to the chisel size you already own is to mark the base with the chisel. one mark on either side of the chisel on the scribe line, then adjust the slope of your tail to meet your size requirement on the end of the board. i think christain becksvoort illustrates that in a dovetail tip somewhere on this site.
i know it seems like this is not true, but 1:6 or 1:8 is not set in stone. actually the strength tests of dovetail joints seems to indicate that we can make strong joints and still have what looks good to the eye. i seen many 150 year old shaker pieces with very steep sloped tails. to me it's a nice look.
Edited 1/15/2007 2:17 pm ET by gmoney
gmoney (Sounds like a rapper name)
Boom chh boom boom Boom chh boom boom
Alright, enough of that noise!
I agree that you can definately layout your dovetails for looks. I've never had a dovetailed box fail, and I've never seen one fail, either. I try to make them look good, not paying much attention to the actual slope.
Jeff
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