Hi Everyone,
I know absolutely nothing about turning. I have mini-lathe (Dunlap) that I just got a motor for. I’ve been basically lurking in this forum to read, read, read what others are saying to gain knowledge. The local library (really small town) has nothing.
I keep hearing about riding the bevel, can someone explain what this is all about?
What I lack in knowledge about turnig, my enthusiasm will more than make up for, not to mention my determination.
I have access to several local turners and have picked their brain somewhat, as I want to get started on the right foot. Any guidance will be most appreciated.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Kidder v,
Unlike a 'fixed' cutter (such as on a metal cutting lathe,) wood cutting tools are hand held and require a tool rest and a long handle to maintain rigidity and control while traversing the workpiece.
A sharp point and a hunk of wood spinning at any speed, can and WILL catch and dig into the work with surprising and dangerous results.
The reason for 'riding the bevel', is to ride the flat edge on the revolving wood and( at the same time) carefully rock the cutting edge into the work. When you find the best approach, (sweet spot) the wood will 'shave' off cuttings at the edge, BUT, still ride on the flat of the bevel for control. Think of a potato peeler versus a paring knife.
Steinmetz.
Also important, is to keep the tool rest at the correct (below center)height , parallel ,close to the work and the tool handle braced against your side or hip.
Edited 1/20/2007 4:51 am ET by Steinmetz
Edited 1/20/2007 4:54 am ET by Steinmetz
Edited 6/8/2007 8:09 pm ET by Steinmetz
Steinmetz,
As a beginner would you recommend that I prepare my blanks to be closer to round?
I'm sure those aren't the right words, but what I'm trying to say is should I make the blanks more octogan shaped to ease the transition to round and help to avoid catches, at least to start out.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
KIDDER, Of course, the closer to round the material is, makes for easier shearing off the 'high spots' If you have already center drilled for the center and driver on the square blank (Billet), it can be ripped on a table saw with the blade set at 45?to produce an octagon in four passes.
If you want to plane down the 16 new 'corners', feel free. Make the first cuts at medium speed,until you have achieved true round. If you'd like, ramp up the speed and with the gouge,and pare off in longitudinal increments. Steinmetz.
I never do that. That is what the lathe is for, chuck it up and use the big skew or a shallow roughing gouge to peal it round! Practice on what’s in your firewood pile, make a lot of shavings, then make some more., then a few more after that. Catches happen, don't fear them, learn from them. I turn a few hundred bowls a year that is how I got fast and accurate at it, just keep turning.
should I make the blanks more octogan shaped to ease the transition to round and help to avoid catches, at least to start out.
Bob, it depends on the wood. Mostly it is possible to use a solid and sharp roughing gauge on the squared blank. But if the wood tends to be hard and brittle, then I clamp it in a vise and use a scrub plane to remove the corners.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks Everyone,
Please remember that I'm greener than the wood I'm practicing on!
I cut some small alder trees out on the back 40 down near the stream, about 6" round to start with. These I cut into several lengths from 12" to about 30". Trying to get the feel of different lengths. First just getting them universally round, then adding some profile shapes while trying different chisels.
Next I plan on trying some relatively green cherry from blocks that I will split down to smaller sizes. I'd like to make some replacement knobs for some old Baileys that I've restored.
Again, much thanks to all you folks and if you have any further words of wisdom for a greeney turner I will welcome all. Especially suggestions as to what methods of practice I might pursue. I plan to start with spindles as that's what my lathe is equipped for.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
It depends on the diameter of the blanks. I definitely cut my bowls close to the circumference line. For spindles I generally cut them round on the lathe.GREG
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I think it's Raffan who gives a rule of thumb that a spindle greater than 4" should be mad octagonal.
I dont have a table saw, so this seems all too much effort fo me, but I have turned several 3" and bigger legs, and the initial cuts can be fearsome. I think that the problem is that you set the tool rest for minimum clearance of the corners, but that the additional leverage if you shove the tool into a 'flat' on such a big piece is very noticeable.
The way I deal with this is to rest the gouge on the tool rest so that it is not engaging the work. I then move my levt (pivot) hand so that my index finger, which regulates depth of cut, is not more than 1/4" back from the tool rest. Then I tntroduce the tool to the work.
Dave
I take it that you are turning between centers with a skew. The usual advice is to "ride the bevel". Where, then, is the clearance angle, without which no cutting can take place?
First you must rough out to a cylinder, then starting with the bevel rubbing, gently rotate the handle until the tool starts to cut. The bevel will no longer be rubbing, and there will now be a clearance angle. Now begins a n enjoyable experience!
Tom
Thanks Tom,I am Newbie to turning in the most profound way. I have never turned before and have seen very few others do it. I just got the lather working after purchasing a 1/2 HP motor and setting up the pulleys.I have acquired some very old chisels and am in the process of learning how to sharpen the. I've also made the acquaintance of a seasoned turner and he has taken me under his wing to teach me how.Much fun as you said. Now it's off to lesson #3!Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, “rubbing” the bevel is the most fundamental skill in turning. Once you master it everything else comes easy. It even helps with freehand grinding of your tools, (don’t fall into the trap of grinding jigs, they are a waste of time and money.). It is tough to describe in words but easy to see. I highly recommend any of Richard Raffen’s books and DVD’s. He is very clear in showing all techniques used in turning.
Thanks Napie,
It is most assuring that I'm starting with the fundamentals and I sincerely mean that. I have someone who is teaching me the basics, starting with rubbing the bevel. Todays lesson, number 3, is to learn how to sharpen freehand, or at least get started. My mentor has also said to forget jigs.
I have an uncle nicknamed Jigs and will NOT forget him! He used to drink a lot and perhaps that is why he needed so many jigs.............. He He He.
All lessons are 1/2 to 3/4 Hr. lecture, same amount of show and tell, then 1 hr. of practice. Of course this seems to depend on the subject at hand, not to mention my ability to absorb.
I really appreciate your help and welcome any additional comments/suggestions. Perhaps the best thing is that I am a newbie and have no preconceived notions about how to turn.
Thanks again,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You said: (don’t fall into the trap of grinding jigs, they are a waste of time and money.)This statement needs some explanation and elaboration. Do you mean ALL jigs? Does that include the tool rest that came with the grinder? How about a shop made enhanced tool rest?Does this apply to everyone? People come with different abilities. I think it inaccurate to make a blanket statement like this. I sharpen my lathe tools with the aid of an oversized tool rest that I set to give the desired bevel angle. The correct swing and roll of the tool is up to me. The more "in practice" I am, the easier this is, but since I turn infrequently anymore, I've considered getting a jig. Similiarly, I resisted buying a plane iron/chisel honing guide for many years. I always thought that I sharpened well enough. Well, I finally reached a level of frustration that I couldn't ignore. This happened when I bought my first LN plane. It was able to cut better than anything I ever had. So I got a one of those pain-in-the-rear/takes-to-long-to-adjust honing guides. With it my tools have never been so keen. Now my old Stanley's will cut just as nice as the LN. It stands to reason, most of us are not machines. We cannot easily and consistently repeat any motion exactly as it was done before.
To each his own.
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By jigs I mean specialized gizmos that hold the tool and remove the possibility of any error, tool rests do not fall into that category. I find it odd that people who are going to turn completely by eye, and that is how most of us do turn, then think they need a jig to hold the tool to grind it, I mean freehand is freehand, is it not? I do not use any sharpening jigs, I find I do just fine without them. I wonder just how generations of craftsmen, woodsmen, farmers, etc. got by without jigs to keep their edges sharp? And in many cased not only their livelihoods but their lives depended on sharp tools. I’m sure we are a physically capable as they were.
To each his own.
Agreed. You may or may not like my method, but I find it so easy and it takes all of 2 or 3 seconds to hone a chisel for the lathe this way:
I use the disk sander section of my belt sander combo. A 240 grit disk can burn the edge so a gentle touch is needed. That is all I do fior a razor edge. Works for me.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi derek,
Not trying to start something here, but are you saying that you also freehand sharpen? Just looking for inputs here as I use a jig to sharpen my plane & chisel blades as I'm not that good at sharpening yet. As for these blades I'm thinking that I should keep the bevel as straight as I can.
Is it that turning chisels, without the aid of jigs that might be restrictive to the sharpeners preferred bevel, is easier done freehand? I'm a little confused?????
My confusion isn't with regard to your particular technique but rather it seems there is a division between those who prefer jigs and those who don't. A previous post alluded to the fact that turning is much different than using fixed bladed tools.
I think this is an aspect of turning that fascinates me. I'm sure there are more and am anxious to learn!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/30/2007 8:08 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 5/30/2007 8:09 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
...are you saying that you also freehand sharpen? Just looking for inputs here as I use a jig to sharpen my plane & chisel blades as I'm not that good at sharpening yet. As for these blades I'm thinking that I should keep the bevel as straight as I can.
Is it that turning chisels, without the aid of jigs that might be restrictive to the sharpeners preferred bevel, is easier done freehand? I'm a little confused?????
Hi Bob
Here is how I see it ..
If you feel confident in maintaining the bevel angle freehand, then that is the way to go. If not, and this is your intended goal, then practice, practice, practice. The use of jigs or honing guides is perfectly OK - this is not religion.
With regard to lathe chisels, I do them freehand. I dislike interrupting the flow to re-sharpen, and the thought of setting up a jig to do such a simple task is not one I would cope with for long. For the most part it really is a simple job if the primary bevel is already ground at the correct angle - if and when it gets significantly out of wack, then I will spend the time restoring this. But careful honing removes very little steel, and regrinding is quite infrequent. For lathe chisels I simply tickle the bevel on a disk sander (240 grit). Sometimes, if the wood really needs an very, very sharp edge, then I will polish it as well on a hard felt wheel and rouge. If the bevel is round/curved, then I follow the outline with a twist of the wrist.
The cutting angle of a blade is relatively important, depending on the nature of the wood with which you are working. This is more of an issue when plane blades that are used bevel up, since the cutting angle is a combination of the bed angle and the bevel angle. Chisel blades used bevel down, such as paring, bench and mortice chisels, can be included here.
For most BD blades and chisel blades (but not Japanese chisels) I tend to hollow grind on a 6" high speed grinder, then freehand on waterstones.
Using bevel down blades in planes, where the cutting angle is taken from the bed only, there is greater leeway for the bevel angle. I would include lathe chisels here as well since one is rarely using them at a precise angle only. We move and the bevel angle changes.
I will be more precise for low- and high bevel angles on blades used bevel up.
If the BU plane blade requires a very high bevel angle, then I will use a microbevel to obtain this. The primary bevel is ground on a belt sander, and a honing guide (the LV Mk II) is used to create the precise microbevel. For low bevel angles I still prefer a hollow grind with freehand honing since this allows me to refresh edges on strops as I work.
I hope that this throws some light on matters.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/30/2007 9:11 pm ET by derekcohen
Edited 5/30/2007 9:33 pm ET by derekcohen
Edited 5/30/2007 10:31 pm ET by derekcohen
I'm just getting into turning so not an expert, but I find your blanket rejection of jigs interesting. Have you seriously tried a jig, or just reject them outright on philisophical grounds?
As far as I'm aware there isn't a jig which completely determines the shape of a side ground gouge. The jigs vary the bevel angle depending on the rotation of the gouge while the sharpener is responsible for the profile with how much they grind where.
Why do you find that interesting? I just taught myself to sharpen without them, so I do reject them, for me at least. So that is the advice I give anyone who asks about the topic of sharpening. My personal belief, (philosophical or not, I mean, are we sure the tool even exits???), is that a lot of folks have made sharpening into this black art requiring a huge investment in jigs, slow speed grinders, fancy sandpaper gizmos, and small animal sacrifices. I use a 6” high speed grinder and my grandfathers <!----><!----><!---->Arkansas<!----><!----> oil stones, that’s it. And I think I’m in good company given the work the Goddards, the Townsends and Krenov, Frid, Maloof have done with similar simple methods.
I am not a turner, though I read these posts with interest since I intend to get into it eventually. That said, I'd like to build on one of sapwood's points:
1. You tend to lose any precise motor skill if you don't use it a lot. Jig-less sharpening is a very precise motor skill. Using a jig allows you to get a very sharp tool consistently, even if you don't do it every day. There is no art to this process, so there's no reason to avoid mechanizing it.
2. Turning by "eye", while also a precise motor skill, seems to me significantly less precise than what is needed to get a very sharp tool. Sure, the more skilled you are, the more control you have over the final product, but I bet you can still get beautiful results with somewhat less precise control over the tool.
MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
Well from a guy who sharpens as much as is needed, and who turns quite a bit, I’d say the motor skills are about the same and absolutely no less precise.
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I have never understood the strong defence of sharpening jigs/equipment on this forum. There are a few of us who don’t care for or use them, but I’m convinced the folks that market these things have completely succeeded in making most woodworker dependent on their products. I just do not get it, it is not as precise as it is made out to be, a few degrees of variation in the bevel is NOT going to make a noticeable difference. And for my part, I like to work wood, not slavish attention on gizmos at the sharpening bench. As I have said, many people in the past, in all trades and professions used very sharp tools kept that way without all the added hardware.
Folks,
I have a thought that is most likely going to be even more provoking on the debate of jig sharpening vs non jig. I too am a novice at turning.
It would seem to me that even if you mechanised the sharpening process to hone/sharpen the bevel at a precise angle it really wouldn't matter unless you were able to turn at the same angle. I'm thinking of fixed blade devices, i.e. planes/chisels as opposed to turning chisels wwhere the turner controls the angle.
Correct me if I'm wrong Napie but I get the sense that your preferred free-hand method allows you to produce the bevel angle that works best for your turning style/method.
There seem to be so many variables involved in the turning process and I guess that is what intrigues me the most.
Thanks to everyone for all the inputs; please keep them coming.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/31/2007 9:13 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I never thought about it that hard, I just grind and cut. I think there is a tendency to make this stuff far more difficult than it needs to be. After all, it’s wood, it’ll move more with the change of seasons than the tolerances I see people talking about on this forum. Also, there is no “perfect bevel”, if it cuts, its good, there is no holy book of sharpening with all the numbers.
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Napie,
<<I think there is a tendency to make this stuff far more difficult than it needs to be. >>
Nice little tidbit of common sense there!!
I don't turn (yet), but do perform all of my hand plane iron, chisel, spokeshave, draw knife, etc., sharpening freehand. Messing with jigs just takes too much time and doesn't -- for me -- yield any better result.... Besides, sharpening is like riding a bicycle: once you learn how to do it (freehand), you never forget (even if you do get a little rusty every once in a while....). Like most, I'm in the shop to do woodworking, not make a career out of sharpening metal stuff.
OTOH, for them what needs a jig to get a good (enough) edge, so be it; the end result is what counts, not necessarily how you got there....
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"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
I agree, the analogy about ridding a bike is perfect. Contrary to MaxYak’s assertion, you don’t need to do it every day to become and stay proficient. But as you say, if you need the crutch of a jig and feel it helps you, go for it.
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You will like turning, it is immediate, maybe the best instant gratification in craft. Start to finish on one tool, very freeform. For most of it found wood is preferable so material costs are time only, (and maybe a chainsaw). I make a lot of bowls, boxes, rolling pins etc. and can make them very fast, turning is great for gifts. Last Christmas I did a run of a dozen pepper mills, start to finish a bit less than ten hours of shop time. And those get taken off and remounted on the lathe at least four times each.
Yep, and they did it every day.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
Not really, may grandfather grew up on a farm, he did not sharpen every day. If your comment was meant to say that they had more practice than we do, well maybe, but I’m in my shop just about every day, so what’s the difference?
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The difference is that many of us are not in our shops every day, let alone sharpen every day. You have expressed confusion and amazement as to why anyone would depend on a sharpening jig. Lack of time for practice is one of the answers.
That said, I'll take your word for it that getting decent results while turning takes the same fine motor control as getting a sharp edge freehand. Which implies to me I'd better stay away from a lathe until I intend to use it all the time :-).
MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
I would not let the comments of a hard-core freehander keep me from indulging the joys of lathe work. I'm not sure how Napie is doing his sharpening, but he certainly is implying that he uses no guide at all.... not even a tool rest. So this says to me that he's presenting the tool to the spinning wheel totally freehand. Grinding a smooth edge on a fingernail bowl gouge in this manner would be very tricky for me. That he is successful means he is above the norm, in my opinion and experience. I do not think most of us could do this. My own sharpening method is somewhat less refined and I must rely on an oversized rest that sets the basic bevel. The swing and roll of the tool is up to me, but at least one factor is fixed. This is am immense help. Others may find that they need even more help, and a dedicated sharpening jig might fill that need. If so, I would encourage anyone to acquire one, for the process of turning can be one of great fulfillment. It would be a shame to deny oneself that pleasure due to a perceived lack of sharpening skill.
It isn't a perceived lack of sharpening skill making me doubt the wisdom of getting into turning so much as the assertion that the freehand sharpening skill (which I have been unable to acquire) is the SAME as the skill necessary to do any turning.
If that assertion is correct, I'd be wasting my time to even get started on turning until I figure out freehand sharpening.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
I don't believe that assertion is correct. The mechanics of putting lathe tool to wood are quite a bit different than tool to high speed grinder. On the grinder, one must not "ride the bevel" for if one did, the bevel would be ground into oblivion in short order. Another method of turning is to use the scraping method. Here, the bevel is not presented to the work at all. Though the scraping cut is not as clean as a shearing cut this method is certainly satisfactory for many. In fact, more accurate work can result from scraping than from shearing.
"Another method of turning is to use the scraping method. Here, the bevel is not presented to the work at all. Though the scraping cut is not as clean as a shearing cut this method is certainly satisfactory for many. In fact, more accurate work can result from scraping than from shearing."
You could be hung drawn and 1/4 sawn for that-but not by me. I think there is far too much emphasis placed on "proper turners ride the bevel, and scrapers are not proper turners". In fact, depending on the wood, you can get an optimum finish by scraping methods-sans any risk of dig-ins at all.I use either method that suits, but do tend to prefer scraping, and I grind and sharpen the tools free hand.
But there times when a honing guide is called for, although I can't see the need for one of these when using wood turning tools. You need a honing guide to consistently get the correct angle for bevel up plane irons-otherwise some benefits are lost.Philip Marcou
Scraping is absolutely called for on end grain. That is about the only way to finish the bottom of a bowl or box. I use very thick (1/2”) strong scrapers with straight, angled and curved edges for this work. Also, a shear scraper held at an angle is great for finishing platters, I like the pointed grind as it gives you two edges to work both directions.
Just where did you get that?? I never said I didn’t use a tool rest, just no jigs, though I did make my own tool rest. . In fact I stated earlier that I do not consider the tool rest a jig. A tool rest on the grinder is just like having one on the lathe.
Here we go again - Another topic that polarizes our community. Sharpening Jigs, Festool, Sawstop, hand cut versus machined dovetails. I am sure there are a others but in the short time I have been a member here, these three are what first come to mind. When will we do the Mac vs PC thread?
Gimmicks are prevalent in our trade . I too have made several poor decisions with regard to sharpening jigs for bench stones. The ones that seemed to work were a pain to set up and use. Therefore, I sharpened mostly by hand. Reality is I didn't sharpen or hone as often as I should have. At times I used dull tools.
Recently I picked up a nearly new Tormek system. It came with more jigs than I would have purchased if buying everything new. Some are easy to use, some are a bit of an inconvenience. I am still hand sharpening a few tools. Scrapers and skews are fairly easy to by-pass the jig.
But the jig for gouges is a dream. I can set it up in 10 seconds and touch up the edge, hone it and be back turning in less than a minute. My bevel stays way more consistent than I could ever achieve by hand. I find I am not grinding too much tool away because I got a double or triple bevel angle that I needed to correct.
Obviously a lot of fine cabinetmaking has been accomplished without all the fancy new jigs. But a lot has also been done without modern fasteners, finishes, and electricity. What criteria separates the true craftsmen from the masses? Why is it not the result instead of the method?
I believe our woodworking forefathers would have used every advantage to make their craft easier or the product better. I personally can't agree that we are less capable because we use sharpening jigs.
If real craftsmen sharpen by hand and avoid jigs, do they also cut by hand and avoid machining jigs and templates too?
GREG <!---->••••••• Exo 35:30-35
PS: Real woodworkers use an Apple Mac.
Edited 6/5/2007 11:30 pm by Cincinnati
Napie,In reviewing my original post about riding the bevel, looking for advise on same, it seems that we have strayed off into a sharpening debate and/or jig debate. That's fine with me if it relates to riding the bevel.However, you stated "tool rests do not fall into that category". Splitting hairs are we? Might I ask if you feel the tool rest on a lathe not to be a jig? I suggest that it IS a jig, much the same as the tool rest on a sharpening device, it's simply an aid/extension of the tool. I suppose that because it's called a honing guide it's not a jig? Is there such a thing as freehand turning without the aid of the tool rest?Oh geesh Cincinnati, now I've started something; a debate on the definition of a jig. Guess it will never end, but that's the best part; good debate is Knots!Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well then I guess we need, as you say, to define what a jig is. So first I would suggest you read David Pye’s book, “The Nature and Art of Workmanship”, where he defines the workmanship of risk versus the workmanship of certainty.
I would submit that a tool rest, (either on the lathe or the grinder), is not a jig, as it in no way guaranties an outcome and is still totally reliant on the craftsman being in control of the process and as a result, there is significant risk involved. A jig then by definition reduces or eliminates the risk and the “craftsman” is reduced to an operator of machinery of some sort.
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As an example, I hand cut most of the dovetails I make with out measuring the spacing or using a bevel to lay them out, a la Frank Klausz. But, when I was making hope chests for sale, (about 400 in ten years), I bought a Kellar jig and never looked back. That removal of risk made the product profitable at the price the chest needed to sell at.
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